One of my Out of the Abyss players has an aasimar paladin who has harvested the claws from a grick alpha and wants to create weapons out of them. As an artist who regularly jury rigs weird objects to fit my needs, I want to reward his creativity by permitting him to fashion a weapon of some sort despite him not having smith's tools. I've looked for information on permitting a player to do this; however, since he does not have crafting proficiencies nor tools (and is lost in the underdark) there seems to be no provision for him. So, I am attempting to come up with something. What I have so far is this:
Dex check
1 - breaks the artifact and no weapon may be made
2-5 - fails; must wait one sleep cycle before attempting to roll again.
6-9 - fails; but, may immediately reroll attempt.
10-13 - succeeds in making a weapon; however, the weapon has a 50% chance of breaking in combat; 1d4 slashing damage
14-17 - succeeds in making a weapon; 1d6 slashing damage
18+ - succeeds in making a weapon; 1d8 slashing damage
So, my question is how does this look? Does it look balanced? In what ways could I change it for the better? Is there a better option? Should there be multiple checks?
It is more the RP situation rather than the basic mechanics.
How long will it take?
Will the paladin need to find a specific location where he can do something with the claws?
If he doesn't have any crafting proficiencies of any sort, then it will probably be best for him to find somebody else who can do the crafting for him - or find somebody to trade it with in exchange for something better.
Xanathars does give rules for what cr creature translates to what item rarity in the magic item ingredients section. A Grick Alpha being Cr 7 is recommended for an uncommon item. I also recommend looking at the DMG special features section to give it a quirk.
Personally when it comes to crafting I have my players tell me how they'd like to do it and then do the relevant skill checks. Like maybe a cleric wants to bless something by praying over it every night that might be a religion roll or maybe they just keep rolling divine intervention each day until they get what they want.
I would not typically have a chance for complete failure except at the harvesting phase or things that can be crafted with a simple too check so they don't just inpromptu grab every monster part or mass make relatively mundane items like healing potions and poisons. You want to get the failure early on so you as the DM and them as a player haven't invested as much.
As for what you currently have my main issue would be this one here:
10-13 - succeeds in making a weapon; however, the weapon has a 50% chance of breaking in combat; 1d4 slashing damage
Couldn't they technically just use it as an improvised weapon and get 1d4 without a chance of breaking and 50% is pretty high for a breakage chance. It just seems like a heavy draw back on a not very powerful item and is actually probably the worst failure after a 1 on the list despite being in the middle.
A grick alpha claw looks a lot like a longsword, and the damage of the claw (4d8 total damage divided among 4 claws) supports the idea of representing it as one. If your paladin wants to keep the claw as a trophy weapon (or needs to replace a broken or lost weapon), you could have him simply attach a grip to the claw and start swinging away. It might take a little expertise or a tool check (such as with Smith's tools) at your discretion, and that could be problematic if no one in the party has access to the necessary tools or tool proficiency to do the job, but the introduction of a travelling NPC in the underdark who can provide the service could clear up that problem, if you even say it requires a check or tool proficiency in the first place.
If your paladin is more of a finesse fighter, I can certainly see a more specialized person reshaping and fashioning a grick claw into a scimitar, shortsword, or even a "light sword" that deals slashing damage and is otherwise mechanically identical to the rapier. Similarly, a great-weapon user could benefit from a grick-claw pike or glaive.
Panda-wat (I hate my username) is somehow convinced that he is objectively right about everything D&D related even though he obviously is not. Considering that, he'd probably make a great D&D youtuber.
"If I die, I can live with that." ~Luke Hart, the DM lair
Xanathars does give rules for what cr creature translates to what item rarity in the magic item ingredients section. A Grick Alpha being Cr 7 is recommended for an uncommon item. I also recommend looking at the DMG special features section to give it a quirk.
Personally when it comes to crafting I have my players tell me how they'd like to do it and then do the relevant skill checks. Like maybe a cleric wants to bless something by praying over it every night that might be a religion roll or maybe they just keep rolling divine intervention each day until they get what they want.
I would not typically have a chance for complete failure except at the harvesting phase or things that can be crafted with a simple too check so they don't just inpromptu grab every monster part or mass make relatively mundane items like healing potions and poisons. You want to get the failure early on so you as the DM and them as a player haven't invested as much.
As for what you currently have my main issue would be this one here:
10-13 - succeeds in making a weapon; however, the weapon has a 50% chance of breaking in combat; 1d4 slashing damage
Couldn't they technically just use it as an improvised weapon and get 1d4 without a chance of breaking and 50% is pretty high for a breakage chance. It just seems like a heavy draw back on a not very powerful item and is actually probably the worst failure after a 1 on the list despite being in the middle.
I agree. I would consider 10-13 to be making a weapon that does 1d6 BUT On a to hit roll of a natural 1, the weapon dulls and only does 1d4 until one minute is spent sharpening it.
Also, I would rule that should he successfully make at least 4 weapons that do 1d8, then he has also earned proficiency in making weapons out of animal claws. Future attempts to do so get his Dex bonus.
I wouldn't say smith's tools were needed, since this is more about working with bone. Woodworker's tools would be more appropriate.
I would require the PC to find the relevant tools. The PC wants to make it into a weapon, but if they don't have the right kit then they need to acquire it. Planning what gear to spend your money on before going adventuring should be an important part of the game!
Once the player has the tools, then I'd ask them for a simple skill check, spending 8 hours attempting to make the claw into a usable weapon. To make something that functions as well as a longsword needs to take at least that long, and 8 hours is probably generous. I'd set the DC around 15, and would allow them to use Survival to make the check if they wanted since fashioning weapons from body parts would fit into that category for me.
At the end of manufacturing, they would have made a spear.
If he doesn't have any crafting proficiencies of any sort, then it will probably be best for him to find somebody else who can do the crafting for him - or find somebody to trade it with in exchange for something better.
This. IMO you should respect stuff that is explicitly covered by proficiencies, because those are character choices. A character might choose to be proficient in smithing tools, thus giving up some other option they could have chosen. Your paladin did not expend any choices or resources on being good at crafting weapons, so they shouldn't be able to craft weapons.
They should ask someone who does have to proficiencies to do it for them, acknowledging that those proficiencies have meaning.
It is more the RP situation rather than the basic mechanics.
How long will it take?
I hadn't thought about length of time. Great point.
Will the paladin need to find a specific location where he can do something with the claws?
Not sure I understand your meaning here?
If he doesn't have any crafting proficiencies of any sort, then it will probably be best for him to find somebody else who can do the crafting for him - or find somebody to trade it with in exchange for something better.
Xanathars does give rules for what cr creature translates to what item rarity in the magic item ingredients section. A Grick Alpha being Cr 7 is recommended for an uncommon item. I also recommend looking at the DMG special features section to give it a quirk.
Oooh! Thank you! since I wasn't planning on making it a magic item, it didn't occur for me to look there.
Personally when it comes to crafting I have my players tell me how they'd like to do it and then do the relevant skill checks. Like maybe a cleric wants to bless something by praying over it every night that might be a religion roll or maybe they just keep rolling divine intervention each day until they get what they want.
Good point.
I would not typically have a chance for complete failure except at the harvesting phase or things that can be crafted with a simple too check so they don't just inpromptu grab every monster part or mass make relatively mundane items like healing potions and poisons. You want to get the failure early on so you as the DM and them as a player haven't invested as much.
I see your point.
As for what you currently have my main issue would be this one here:
10-13 - succeeds in making a weapon; however, the weapon has a 50% chance of breaking in combat; 1d4 slashing damage
Couldn't they technically just use it as an improvised weapon and get 1d4 without a chance of breaking and 50% is pretty high for a breakage chance. It just seems like a heavy draw back on a not very powerful item and is actually probably the worst failure after a 1 on the list despite being in the middle.
Fair point. I was trying to make it match the desperation of their situation; but, that is too much I guess.
A grick alpha claw looks a lot like a longsword, and the damage of the claw (4d8 total damage divided among 4 claws) supports the idea of representing it as one. If your paladin wants to keep the claw as a trophy weapon (or needs to replace a broken or lost weapon), you could have him simply attach a grip to the claw and start swinging away. It might take a little expertise or a tool check (such as with Smith's tools) at your discretion, and that could be problematic if no one in the party has access to the necessary tools or tool proficiency to do the job, but the introduction of a travelling NPC in the underdark who can provide the service could clear up that problem, if you even say it requires a check or tool proficiency in the first place.
Ooooh!! I absolutely LOVE the traveling NPC idea!
If your paladin is more of a finesse fighter, I can certainly see a more specialized person reshaping and fashioning a grick claw into a scimitar, shortsword, or even a "light sword" that deals slashing damage and is otherwise mechanically identical to the rapier. Similarly, a great-weapon user could benefit from a grick-claw pike or glaive.
He's definitely strength based; but, yes he is a great weapon fighter so a glaive or pike is a great idea.
I agree. I would consider 10-13 to be making a weapon that does 1d6 BUT On a to hit roll of a natural 1, the weapon dulls and only does 1d4 until one minute is spent sharpening it.
Not a bad idea.
Also, I would rule that should he successfully make at least 4 weapons that do 1d8, then he has also earned proficiency in making weapons out of animal claws. Future attempts to do so get his Dex bonus.
I wouldn't say smith's tools were needed, since this is more about working with bone. Woodworker's tools would be more appropriate.
Fair point.
I would require the PC to find the relevant tools. The PC wants to make it into a weapon, but if they don't have the right kit then they need to acquire it. Planning what gear to spend your money on before going adventuring should be an important part of the game!
In Out of the Abyss, the characters start with nothing so no planning will help. Finding the tools is difficult since they are lost in the Underdark.
Thank you for your response!
Once the player has the tools, then I'd ask them for a simple skill check, spending 8 hours attempting to make the claw into a usable weapon. To make something that functions as well as a longsword needs to take at least that long, and 8 hours is probably generous. I'd set the DC around 15, and would allow them to use Survival to make the check if they wanted since fashioning weapons from body parts would fit into that category for me.
At the end of manufacturing, they would have made a spear.
I agree with those who have said that someone who has not put any of their character build into being able to make a weapon would not be able to make a weapon very well.
I would be inclined to say that:
the DC for creating a good weapon from this is 25
The DC decreases to 20 if they have a decent workbench or other kit
the check is one of Smiths Tools (or another relevant tool kit).
the player has to specify how they are making the item - collaborating with the DM to make their plan, EG "I will wrap it in leather to make a handle", "there are spikes there, you'll need to trim them off first. How will you fix the leather?", and so on.
For every 2 hours they spend on this, up to 8 hours, they can add 1 to the roll
None of the normal stats will work well for this, because creation invariably requires a combination of them - strength to bind the leather around the handle tightly, dexterity to tie the knots, intelligence to know which knots to use, wisdom to know where to put the knots to be out of the way when the weapon is used, and that's just the handle. A proficiency in leatherwork, carving, or smiths tools would constitute the application of these traits, not simply having a high dex stat.
This way if you have proficiency in smiths tools (let's say PB 3) and a workbench, and dedicate 8 hours, you get +7 to the roll, so need 13+ to make the weapon. Failing simply means you have only partially completed it before losing patience, wasting your leather, or so on.
If they instead ask the Artificer to do it, who has expertise in smiths tools, then they can do it on a 10+.
This would let the player decide what weapon they want to make, and then I would decide how it works (EG grick claws do 1d8, so a grick claw spear does 1d8 damage) and grant them the weapon. I'd make it marginally better than a non-monster-part weapon, to encourage awesome non-magic weapons. I may also give it a lifetime (in long rests, I wouldn't have it just break mid-combat unless a nat 1 is rolled) so they can keep harvesting parts throughout the campaign. I would also allow medicine or nature checks to work out how poison glands work to have limited charges on an item, EG using a poison gland in a spider fang to enhance a hit with poison damage.
it sounds liek fun - I would try to encourage it wherever possible.
Now that I understand that this is kind of an "alone in the wilderness trying to survive" scenario, I think the improvised weapons rule is the best way to go here. Allowing PCs to craft strong weapons from monster parts with no tools or skills is fun the first time, but it's the kind of thing that causes problems later when the PCs want to make cool stuff from every monster they kill with the expectation that stronger monsters will equal even better weapons.
One of my Out of the Abyss players has an aasimar paladin who has harvested the claws from a grick alpha and wants to create weapons out of them. As an artist who regularly jury rigs weird objects to fit my needs, I want to reward his creativity by permitting him to fashion a weapon of some sort despite him not having smith's tools. I've looked for information on permitting a player to do this; however, since he does not have crafting proficiencies nor tools (and is lost in the underdark) there seems to be no provision for him. So, I am attempting to come up with something. What I have so far is this:
Dex check
1 - breaks the artifact and no weapon may be made
2-5 - fails; must wait one sleep cycle before attempting to roll again.
6-9 - fails; but, may immediately reroll attempt.
10-13 - succeeds in making a weapon; however, the weapon has a 50% chance of breaking in combat; 1d4 slashing damage
14-17 - succeeds in making a weapon; 1d6 slashing damage
18+ - succeeds in making a weapon; 1d8 slashing damage
So, my question is how does this look? Does it look balanced? In what ways could I change it for the better? Is there a better option? Should there be multiple checks?
It is more the RP situation rather than the basic mechanics.
How long will it take?
Will the paladin need to find a specific location where he can do something with the claws?
If he doesn't have any crafting proficiencies of any sort, then it will probably be best for him to find somebody else who can do the crafting for him - or find somebody to trade it with in exchange for something better.
Xanathars does give rules for what cr creature translates to what item rarity in the magic item ingredients section. A Grick Alpha being Cr 7 is recommended for an uncommon item. I also recommend looking at the DMG special features section to give it a quirk.
Personally when it comes to crafting I have my players tell me how they'd like to do it and then do the relevant skill checks. Like maybe a cleric wants to bless something by praying over it every night that might be a religion roll or maybe they just keep rolling divine intervention each day until they get what they want.
I would not typically have a chance for complete failure except at the harvesting phase or things that can be crafted with a simple too check so they don't just inpromptu grab every monster part or mass make relatively mundane items like healing potions and poisons. You want to get the failure early on so you as the DM and them as a player haven't invested as much.
As for what you currently have my main issue would be this one here:
Couldn't they technically just use it as an improvised weapon and get 1d4 without a chance of breaking and 50% is pretty high for a breakage chance. It just seems like a heavy draw back on a not very powerful item and is actually probably the worst failure after a 1 on the list despite being in the middle.
A grick alpha claw looks a lot like a longsword, and the damage of the claw (4d8 total damage divided among 4 claws) supports the idea of representing it as one. If your paladin wants to keep the claw as a trophy weapon (or needs to replace a broken or lost weapon), you could have him simply attach a grip to the claw and start swinging away. It might take a little expertise or a tool check (such as with Smith's tools) at your discretion, and that could be problematic if no one in the party has access to the necessary tools or tool proficiency to do the job, but the introduction of a travelling NPC in the underdark who can provide the service could clear up that problem, if you even say it requires a check or tool proficiency in the first place.
If your paladin is more of a finesse fighter, I can certainly see a more specialized person reshaping and fashioning a grick claw into a scimitar, shortsword, or even a "light sword" that deals slashing damage and is otherwise mechanically identical to the rapier. Similarly, a great-weapon user could benefit from a grick-claw pike or glaive.
Panda-wat (I hate my username) is somehow convinced that he is objectively right about everything D&D related even though he obviously is not. Considering that, he'd probably make a great D&D youtuber.
"If I die, I can live with that." ~Luke Hart, the DM lair
I agree. I would consider 10-13 to be making a weapon that does 1d6 BUT On a to hit roll of a natural 1, the weapon dulls and only does 1d4 until one minute is spent sharpening it.
Also, I would rule that should he successfully make at least 4 weapons that do 1d8, then he has also earned proficiency in making weapons out of animal claws. Future attempts to do so get his Dex bonus.
I wouldn't say smith's tools were needed, since this is more about working with bone. Woodworker's tools would be more appropriate.
I would require the PC to find the relevant tools. The PC wants to make it into a weapon, but if they don't have the right kit then they need to acquire it. Planning what gear to spend your money on before going adventuring should be an important part of the game!
Once the player has the tools, then I'd ask them for a simple skill check, spending 8 hours attempting to make the claw into a usable weapon. To make something that functions as well as a longsword needs to take at least that long, and 8 hours is probably generous. I'd set the DC around 15, and would allow them to use Survival to make the check if they wanted since fashioning weapons from body parts would fit into that category for me.
At the end of manufacturing, they would have made a spear.
This. IMO you should respect stuff that is explicitly covered by proficiencies, because those are character choices. A character might choose to be proficient in smithing tools, thus giving up some other option they could have chosen. Your paladin did not expend any choices or resources on being good at crafting weapons, so they shouldn't be able to craft weapons.
They should ask someone who does have to proficiencies to do it for them, acknowledging that those proficiencies have meaning.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
I hadn't thought about length of time. Great point.
Not sure I understand your meaning here?
Well, his group is lost in the Underdark so...
Oooh! Thank you! since I wasn't planning on making it a magic item, it didn't occur for me to look there.
Good point.
I see your point.
Fair point. I was trying to make it match the desperation of their situation; but, that is too much I guess.
Thank you for your input!
Ooooh!! I absolutely LOVE the traveling NPC idea!
He's definitely strength based; but, yes he is a great weapon fighter so a glaive or pike is a great idea.
Thank you!
In order to make something it will require tools - will this particular item require an anvil and forge, or the magical equivalent?
If so, will they be able to find such a place where they are?
Not a bad idea.
I absolutely LOVE this! Thank you!
Fair point.
The basic rules (https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/equipment#ImprovisedWeapons) say:
This means that you can let them wield it as a short sword or spear for 1d6 piercing damage with little issue.
The lack of a properly crafted handle would prevent ME from letting it count as a long sword or similar (so not 1d8 piercing).
I agree with those who have said that someone who has not put any of their character build into being able to make a weapon would not be able to make a weapon very well.
I would be inclined to say that:
None of the normal stats will work well for this, because creation invariably requires a combination of them - strength to bind the leather around the handle tightly, dexterity to tie the knots, intelligence to know which knots to use, wisdom to know where to put the knots to be out of the way when the weapon is used, and that's just the handle. A proficiency in leatherwork, carving, or smiths tools would constitute the application of these traits, not simply having a high dex stat.
This way if you have proficiency in smiths tools (let's say PB 3) and a workbench, and dedicate 8 hours, you get +7 to the roll, so need 13+ to make the weapon. Failing simply means you have only partially completed it before losing patience, wasting your leather, or so on.
If they instead ask the Artificer to do it, who has expertise in smiths tools, then they can do it on a 10+.
This would let the player decide what weapon they want to make, and then I would decide how it works (EG grick claws do 1d8, so a grick claw spear does 1d8 damage) and grant them the weapon. I'd make it marginally better than a non-monster-part weapon, to encourage awesome non-magic weapons. I may also give it a lifetime (in long rests, I wouldn't have it just break mid-combat unless a nat 1 is rolled) so they can keep harvesting parts throughout the campaign. I would also allow medicine or nature checks to work out how poison glands work to have limited charges on an item, EG using a poison gland in a spider fang to enhance a hit with poison damage.
it sounds liek fun - I would try to encourage it wherever possible.
Make your Artificer work with any other class with 174 Multiclassing Feats for your Artificer Multiclass Character!
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Now that I understand that this is kind of an "alone in the wilderness trying to survive" scenario, I think the improvised weapons rule is the best way to go here. Allowing PCs to craft strong weapons from monster parts with no tools or skills is fun the first time, but it's the kind of thing that causes problems later when the PCs want to make cool stuff from every monster they kill with the expectation that stronger monsters will equal even better weapons.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm