In my last game, I had a player cast Plant Growth (see below for the full spell) and it broke my last session because I seized up.
Here is the important bit:
"...choose a point within range. All normal plants in a 100-foot radius centered on that point become thick and overgrown. A creature moving through the area must spend 4 feet of movement for every 1 foot it moves."
My player cast this in an arc around the party between them and the mobs. Obviously any creature moving through the growth is at 1/4 speed.
This happened in a forest and BEFORE the spell was cast, at a distance of about 60' I was giving 1/2 cover in both directions.
How would you adjudicate ranged attacks through the plant growth? Ranged spells?
I kind of seized up and stopped thinking about what effect this spell would have on ranged attacks incoming from the party because I had a lot going on with my monsters/encounter and it was my first time using Roll20. The players were hitting the mobs with a lot of ranged stuff through the spell effect because I didn't impose cover. Again, I was too worried about working Roll20 and getting melee mobs and my big bad in play (both of which were stymied by the Plant Growth).
In hindsight, I feel like the cover should have gone from 1/2 cover to 3/4 or total cover based on a % die from both the mobs AND the players.
The session ended as the encounter "big bad" called out for more minions on the opposite side of the party from the other side of the forest. In the next game, I want to have a discussion and say, "I screwed up. The forest was 1/2 cover at 60' and after this spell created a condition of "thick and overgrown", all ranged attacks and ranged spell attacks should have gotten 3/4 or total cover based on a percentage die."
This spell channels vitality into plants within a specific area. There are two possible uses for the spell, granting either immediate or long-term benefits.
If you cast this spell using 1 action, choose a point within range. All normal plants in a 100-foot radius centered on that point become thick and overgrown. A creature moving through the area must spend 4 feet of movement for every 1 foot it moves.
You can exclude one or more areas of any size within the spell’s area from being affected.
If you cast this spell over 8 hours, you enrich the land. All plants in a half-mile radius centered on a point within range become enriched for 1 year. The plants yield twice the normal amount of food when harvested.
In my limited knowledge, being a new DM, I agree with your though about 3/4 cover. If the players were using ranged weapons/spells, the only way I could see to adjudicate that would be to impose disadvantage on their attacks.
Agree with emrfish, it does nothing for cover one way or another. If you want to house rule it, as long as you’re applying it to both sides in this case, since shooting in or out would be hard either way, it seems like it would be fair. However, the player can’t cast it in an arc. It’s a 100’radius. A circle (a really big circle, about 2/3 the length of a football field, that probably would have caught the players in it, too, if they were 60’ away) they can’t do other shapes.
I said arc because that was how I crudely drew it in Roll20 (as the back half of the circle didn't matter [until now]).
I would intend to apply it in both directions (mob and PC).
As for the RAW v RAI...I have to go with RAI on this - "thick overgrowth" of plants that cuts move by 3/4 would seem to effect ANYTHING trying to get through it like a fired arrow or missile of any kind. I *could* see that magic might be treated differently if someone wanted to make an argument that a ranged spell attack could somehow be controlled through the growth. I might impose slightly less cover in that scenario...
Being that this spell is of a fairly low level, has a range of 150', is an instantaneous cast, and lasts for an indeterminate amount of time seems to be an "easy" spell to cast whenever there is any distance between the party and mobs in a natural environment that neutralizes every attack that isn't ranged if RAW were applied stringently.
If they were in such heavy brush that you were giving cover, how did the caster see the target spot far enough away that they weren’t caught in it?
I think that acts as a bit of balancing. A100’ radius and a 150’ range means the caster needs a lot of space to work with or the party is likely to get caught in the radius. And it really only works if they know the enemies are coming from far away. And allied melee types are just as screwed as the enemies.
To me it seems, as another said, like the players were clever. Sometimes you have the right tool for the job, and a fight is easy. Sometimes not.
in My Opinion, the Players just has brought the Spell to great use. Did your Players enjoyed the session? I hope so, because they wrecked the enemie, who would otherwise be a hard fight.
On the other hand: Just because the spell don't state that it grants Cover, creatures in your world should be smart (if they are intelligent). And if you imagine an overgrwon Forest with huge Plants, there should be a lot of possibilies for cover. And i mean, all kind of Cover. Let your NPS crawl through the thicket and take full cover or 3/4-cover while they slowly creep up to the party. Give AoE Damage effects som benifits or disadvantages depending on the Situation. A Fireball could explode to early because the huge plants distract the straigt line and causes a huge flaming Inferno, or NPS could have advantage against lightning Bolt Saving throws and Disadvantage against stinking clouds. This decissions should always depend on the Situations you come up or your Players create.
I totally understand missing things while DMing on Roll20. You learn new things about this game every session as stuff like this comes up. It sounds like you’re reviewing your work and pushing yourself to get better, so that’s another mark in your favor. You’re gonna be a stellar DM with a scant few months of experience.
I like the way you were thinking critically about the situation in the forest. You had already determined that partial cover applied to any ranged attacks in such an environment, and logically, any plant life in the area of effect that already grants partial cover that “becomes thick and overgrown” would provide even more cover as the open space becomes crowded. How much more is all on you to determine. I personally would have ruled if it was already 1/2 cover, and grows so thick that you’re only able to move at 1/4 speed, it’s now impossible to shoot through and they had a few rounds to prepare while the enemies tried marching through that to reach them. But I believe you applied it well to the spot it was cast. The spell states they can exclude area from being affected by the spell, so the net result is it could be cast in an arc. Yeah, you missed that cover would apply both ways, and if you had it to do over again, you’d remember to apply that. But your mistake didn’t screw the players by giving the monsters an unearned advantage. And they had fun. So there’s nothing to beat yourself up over here.
If you want to announce that to the players next session, that’s fine. Just say I’ll try to remember to apply stuff like that fairly to both sides from now on. But I’m trying to get better at DMing, which means paying attention to that stuff. So if I miss it, feel free to point it out. Inspiration to anyone that catches something like that in the future. Not inspiration for rules lawyering, but helping me remember when some effect or environment should be factored in. It’s hard to remember everything.
Since it doesn't say that the thick and overgrown plants provide cover, and just have 1/4 movement, I'd suggests its a ground based effect. It doesnt take much to make things at least difficult terrain.
Take for example the spiked growth spell. The ground sprouts thorns that don't even seem to be anything but normal terrain, but it becomes difficult terrain with a 1/2 movement speed.
Imagine wading through plant and roots that just come up to your knees - trying to find a spot to step through without becoming tangled. Even if you went prone, would you be able to find a spot where your whole body could sink into a gap between the roots? Potentially, but then prone they are now moving at 1/8 speed, potentially spending a round or two cutting through roots so they don't have to pop over the growth, so making it even slower - I mean the PC's might as well shoot or cast saving based cantrips because its going to take 10 rounds for them to make it through trying to move through it while prone.
Everyone seems to be skipping that one line of the spell... "You can exclude one or more areas of any size within the spell's area from being affected."
The players are not necessarily 'suddenly' standing in growing brambles, bracken, weeds and grasses... if the druid excluded a few squares/hexes where they are standing / manuevering. Heck, the 'arc' could have been 'excluding' areas of any size....
There's no RAI here. The rule isn't 'intended' to do something completely unmentioned in it's description. Plant Growth limits movement - it does not affect ranged attacks in any way. What it does is, it changes the ground, so open terrain becomes extremely rugged, slowing down movement.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
It's generally not a great idea to start melee enemies so far away. If you are starting at that distance you need ranged enemies but potentially this is a situation where dropping prone and popping up to make ranged attacks could have good effect as the party wont be able to run into melee either. The monsters could try approaching prone which would be 1/2 cover + disadvantage on ranged attacks. Also dropping prone could be seen as justifying greater cover or even let the monsters hide.
Plant Growth is one those spells that I call "absolute". As in there is no save or spell casting check or anything. It's also instantaneous, so the thicket stays there.
I think as such, it can be used in very powerful ways as can other level 3 spells. Say, you are being pursued by someone through the streets. You cast PG between you and them, and it's pretty much guaranteed escape from that situation.
But also as such, it poses the threat of leading to problems for the players too, if used in the wrong place.
I think it would have been justified to go with 3/4 or even full cover. This might be a bit difficult to simulate on Roll20, but if it was total cover, it could have led to a very interesting turn of events, if they lost all track of their enemies and even themselves and had to navigate the thicket randomly. Imagine if the BBEG had fire immunity and some fire spells there. A blazing inferno on overgrown plants. :P
Since it doesn't say that the thick and overgrown plants provide cover, and just have 1/4 movement, I'd suggests its a ground based effect. It doesnt take much to make things at least difficult terrain.
Take for example the spiked growth spell. The ground sprouts thorns that don't even seem to be anything but normal terrain, but it becomes difficult terrain with a 1/2 movement speed.
Imagine wading through plant and roots that just come up to your knees - trying to find a spot to step through without becoming tangled. Even if you went prone, would you be able to find a spot where your whole body could sink into a gap between the roots? Potentially, but then prone they are now moving at 1/8 speed, potentially spending a round or two cutting through roots so they don't have to pop over the growth, so making it even slower - I mean the PC's might as well shoot or cast saving based cantrips because its going to take 10 rounds for them to make it through trying to move through it while prone.
Since it doesn't say that the thick and overgrown plants provide cover, and just have 1/4 movement, I'd suggests its a ground based effect. It doesnt take much to make things at least difficult terrain.
Take for example the spiked growth spell. The ground sprouts thorns that don't even seem to be anything but normal terrain, but it becomes difficult terrain with a 1/2 movement speed.
Imagine wading through plant and roots that just come up to your knees - trying to find a spot to step through without becoming tangled. Even if you went prone, would you be able to find a spot where your whole body could sink into a gap between the roots? Potentially, but then prone they are now moving at 1/8 speed, potentially spending a round or two cutting through roots so they don't have to pop over the growth, so making it even slower - I mean the PC's might as well shoot or cast saving based cantrips because its going to take 10 rounds for them to make it through trying to move through it while prone.
I agree with you. I think the key difference here is that they were already in a forest and surrounded by tall growth that provides cover. And those tall plants get taller and thicker too. I interpret it as every plant becoming overgrown. So without the already existing 1/2 cover, this would be a fairly simple situation and answered by RAW. But the already existing cover combined with the detail that everything grows thicker and bigger, could reasonably make the existing covers larger by a simple DM ruling. :)
And because the point is to have fun. Right now the DM did not seem to have much fun. So making the thicket negatively affect both, but giving the players some edge because they used a level 3 slot, it would be a satisfying twist for all parties to have the battlefield change dramatically, not just impairing movement.
OP is probably long gone by now, but I would caution DMs not to get into a mindset where a player "breaks" your session. What it sounds like to me is that the party used a spell very effectively to make an encounter easier than you intended. You may need to improvise a bit later on to keep things challenging, but in this case they did a smart thing and deserve a win. Which, by the way is also a win for you because now they feel awesome.
As for the spell itself, I could go in very different ways depending on the group and the situation. I agree that as written this is a great way to pin down melee enemies and pummel them with ranged attacks. But I also really like the cinematics of the forest just completely closing up, allowing the party ample time to escape or regroup before the monsters can hack their way out. PG is a pretty niche spell, and sometimes it's fun to give spells like these an extra kick if its something rarely seen at the table.
My fellow DMs,
In my last game, I had a player cast Plant Growth (see below for the full spell) and it broke my last session because I seized up.
Here is the important bit:
"...choose a point within range. All normal plants in a 100-foot radius centered on that point become thick and overgrown. A creature moving through the area must spend 4 feet of movement for every 1 foot it moves."
My player cast this in an arc around the party between them and the mobs. Obviously any creature moving through the growth is at 1/4 speed.
This happened in a forest and BEFORE the spell was cast, at a distance of about 60' I was giving 1/2 cover in both directions.
How would you adjudicate ranged attacks through the plant growth? Ranged spells?
I kind of seized up and stopped thinking about what effect this spell would have on ranged attacks incoming from the party because I had a lot going on with my monsters/encounter and it was my first time using Roll20. The players were hitting the mobs with a lot of ranged stuff through the spell effect because I didn't impose cover. Again, I was too worried about working Roll20 and getting melee mobs and my big bad in play (both of which were stymied by the Plant Growth).
In hindsight, I feel like the cover should have gone from 1/2 cover to 3/4 or total cover based on a % die from both the mobs AND the players.
The session ended as the encounter "big bad" called out for more minions on the opposite side of the party from the other side of the forest. In the next game, I want to have a discussion and say, "I screwed up. The forest was 1/2 cover at 60' and after this spell created a condition of "thick and overgrown", all ranged attacks and ranged spell attacks should have gotten 3/4 or total cover based on a percentage die."
Fair?
===
Plant Growth
3rd-level transmutation
Casting Time: 1 action or 8 hours
Range: 150 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: Instantaneous
This spell channels vitality into plants within a specific area. There are two possible uses for the spell, granting either immediate or long-term benefits.
If you cast this spell using 1 action, choose a point within range. All normal plants in a 100-foot radius centered on that point become thick and overgrown. A creature moving through the area must spend 4 feet of movement for every 1 foot it moves.
You can exclude one or more areas of any size within the spell’s area from being affected.
If you cast this spell over 8 hours, you enrich the land. All plants in a half-mile radius centered on a point within range become enriched for 1 year. The plants yield twice the normal amount of food when harvested.
In my limited knowledge, being a new DM, I agree with your though about 3/4 cover. If the players were using ranged weapons/spells, the only way I could see to adjudicate that would be to impose disadvantage on their attacks.
It sounds like your party used the spell to great effect by crippling melee enemies.
Anyway, since the spell does not state it can grant cover, it does not give cover.
Agree with emrfish, it does nothing for cover one way or another. If you want to house rule it, as long as you’re applying it to both sides in this case, since shooting in or out would be hard either way, it seems like it would be fair.
However, the player can’t cast it in an arc. It’s a 100’radius. A circle (a really big circle, about 2/3 the length of a football field, that probably would have caught the players in it, too, if they were 60’ away) they can’t do other shapes.
Good feedback all.
I said arc because that was how I crudely drew it in Roll20 (as the back half of the circle didn't matter [until now]).
I would intend to apply it in both directions (mob and PC).
As for the RAW v RAI...I have to go with RAI on this - "thick overgrowth" of plants that cuts move by 3/4 would seem to effect ANYTHING trying to get through it like a fired arrow or missile of any kind. I *could* see that magic might be treated differently if someone wanted to make an argument that a ranged spell attack could somehow be controlled through the growth. I might impose slightly less cover in that scenario...
Being that this spell is of a fairly low level, has a range of 150', is an instantaneous cast, and lasts for an indeterminate amount of time seems to be an "easy" spell to cast whenever there is any distance between the party and mobs in a natural environment that neutralizes every attack that isn't ranged if RAW were applied stringently.
If they were in such heavy brush that you were giving cover, how did the caster see the target spot far enough away that they weren’t caught in it?
I think that acts as a bit of balancing. A100’ radius and a 150’ range means the caster needs a lot of space to work with or the party is likely to get caught in the radius. And it really only works if they know the enemies are coming from far away. And allied melee types are just as screwed as the enemies.
To me it seems, as another said, like the players were clever. Sometimes you have the right tool for the job, and a fight is easy. Sometimes not.
in My Opinion, the Players just has brought the Spell to great use. Did your Players enjoyed the session? I hope so, because they wrecked the enemie, who would otherwise be a hard fight.
On the other hand: Just because the spell don't state that it grants Cover, creatures in your world should be smart (if they are intelligent). And if you imagine an overgrwon Forest with huge Plants, there should be a lot of possibilies for cover. And i mean, all kind of Cover. Let your NPS crawl through the thicket and take full cover or 3/4-cover while they slowly creep up to the party. Give AoE Damage effects som benifits or disadvantages depending on the Situation.
A Fireball could explode to early because the huge plants distract the straigt line and causes a huge flaming Inferno, or NPS could have advantage against lightning Bolt Saving throws and Disadvantage against stinking clouds. This decissions should always depend on the Situations you come up or your Players create.
I totally understand missing things while DMing on Roll20. You learn new things about this game every session as stuff like this comes up. It sounds like you’re reviewing your work and pushing yourself to get better, so that’s another mark in your favor. You’re gonna be a stellar DM with a scant few months of experience.
I like the way you were thinking critically about the situation in the forest. You had already determined that partial cover applied to any ranged attacks in such an environment, and logically, any plant life in the area of effect that already grants partial cover that “becomes thick and overgrown” would provide even more cover as the open space becomes crowded. How much more is all on you to determine. I personally would have ruled if it was already 1/2 cover, and grows so thick that you’re only able to move at 1/4 speed, it’s now impossible to shoot through and they had a few rounds to prepare while the enemies tried marching through that to reach them. But I believe you applied it well to the spot it was cast. The spell states they can exclude area from being affected by the spell, so the net result is it could be cast in an arc. Yeah, you missed that cover would apply both ways, and if you had it to do over again, you’d remember to apply that. But your mistake didn’t screw the players by giving the monsters an unearned advantage. And they had fun. So there’s nothing to beat yourself up over here.
If you want to announce that to the players next session, that’s fine. Just say I’ll try to remember to apply stuff like that fairly to both sides from now on. But I’m trying to get better at DMing, which means paying attention to that stuff. So if I miss it, feel free to point it out. Inspiration to anyone that catches something like that in the future. Not inspiration for rules lawyering, but helping me remember when some effect or environment should be factored in. It’s hard to remember everything.
Since it doesn't say that the thick and overgrown plants provide cover, and just have 1/4 movement, I'd suggests its a ground based effect. It doesnt take much to make things at least difficult terrain.
Take for example the spiked growth spell. The ground sprouts thorns that don't even seem to be anything but normal terrain, but it becomes difficult terrain with a 1/2 movement speed.
Imagine wading through plant and roots that just come up to your knees - trying to find a spot to step through without becoming tangled. Even if you went prone, would you be able to find a spot where your whole body could sink into a gap between the roots? Potentially, but then prone they are now moving at 1/8 speed, potentially spending a round or two cutting through roots so they don't have to pop over the growth, so making it even slower - I mean the PC's might as well shoot or cast saving based cantrips because its going to take 10 rounds for them to make it through trying to move through it while prone.
Be a shame for some of the enemy wizards to cast fire spells in there, with the PCs snug in the middle of the overgrowth...
I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
Everyone seems to be skipping that one line of the spell... "You can exclude one or more areas of any size within the spell's area from being affected."
The players are not necessarily 'suddenly' standing in growing brambles, bracken, weeds and grasses... if the druid excluded a few squares/hexes where they are standing / manuevering. Heck, the 'arc' could have been 'excluding' areas of any size....
There's no RAI here. The rule isn't 'intended' to do something completely unmentioned in it's description. Plant Growth limits movement - it does not affect ranged attacks in any way. What it does is, it changes the ground, so open terrain becomes extremely rugged, slowing down movement.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
It's generally not a great idea to start melee enemies so far away. If you are starting at that distance you need ranged enemies but potentially this is a situation where dropping prone and popping up to make ranged attacks could have good effect as the party wont be able to run into melee either. The monsters could try approaching prone which would be 1/2 cover + disadvantage on ranged attacks. Also dropping prone could be seen as justifying greater cover or even let the monsters hide.
Plant Growth is one those spells that I call "absolute". As in there is no save or spell casting check or anything. It's also instantaneous, so the thicket stays there.
I think as such, it can be used in very powerful ways as can other level 3 spells. Say, you are being pursued by someone through the streets. You cast PG between you and them, and it's pretty much guaranteed escape from that situation.
But also as such, it poses the threat of leading to problems for the players too, if used in the wrong place.
I think it would have been justified to go with 3/4 or even full cover. This might be a bit difficult to simulate on Roll20, but if it was total cover, it could have led to a very interesting turn of events, if they lost all track of their enemies and even themselves and had to navigate the thicket randomly. Imagine if the BBEG had fire immunity and some fire spells there. A blazing inferno on overgrown plants. :P
Finland GMT/UTC +2
I agree with you. I think the key difference here is that they were already in a forest and surrounded by tall growth that provides cover. And those tall plants get taller and thicker too. I interpret it as every plant becoming overgrown. So without the already existing 1/2 cover, this would be a fairly simple situation and answered by RAW. But the already existing cover combined with the detail that everything grows thicker and bigger, could reasonably make the existing covers larger by a simple DM ruling. :)
And because the point is to have fun. Right now the DM did not seem to have much fun. So making the thicket negatively affect both, but giving the players some edge because they used a level 3 slot, it would be a satisfying twist for all parties to have the battlefield change dramatically, not just impairing movement.
Finland GMT/UTC +2
OP is probably long gone by now, but I would caution DMs not to get into a mindset where a player "breaks" your session. What it sounds like to me is that the party used a spell very effectively to make an encounter easier than you intended. You may need to improvise a bit later on to keep things challenging, but in this case they did a smart thing and deserve a win. Which, by the way is also a win for you because now they feel awesome.
As for the spell itself, I could go in very different ways depending on the group and the situation. I agree that as written this is a great way to pin down melee enemies and pummel them with ranged attacks. But I also really like the cinematics of the forest just completely closing up, allowing the party ample time to escape or regroup before the monsters can hack their way out. PG is a pretty niche spell, and sometimes it's fun to give spells like these an extra kick if its something rarely seen at the table.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm