Yes, multiclassing into the same class in order to gain an additional subclass/archetype isn't in the rules, but I think it makes sense lore-wise:
why would the warlock NOT be able to have multiple patrons? What really harms the game if they do? I mean, if the player has fun without hurting fun for others, why not?
Now... does anyone have any homebrew rules or anything to help me do this in the game beyond normal multiclass rules (which I've already read)?
I’m pretty sure those two patrons would be upset if they found out. Like two women realizing that the same man married them both in different cities, with two different lives and two different families. Not good.
Lesser Bargain Prerequisite: Requires Charisma 13 or higher You have sealed a bargain with an entity who grants you a modicum of power. You gain the following benefits:
Increase one ability score of your choice by 1, to a maximum of 20.
You gain a Pact Boon, as if you were a warlock of 3rd level. This must be a Pact Boon that you do not already possess.
Greater Bargain
Prerequisite: Requires Charisma 15 or higher
You broker for more power from your benefactor. You gain the following benefits:
Increase one ability score of your choice by 1, to a maximum of 20
You gain two warlock invocations of your choice. You must be able to meet the prerequisites for these invocations, if any. If you do not have levels in the warlock class, count your warlock level for the purposes of prerequisites as half your class level (rounded down).
Grand Bargain Prerequisite: Charisma 17 or higher, Greater Bargain feat Through masterful persuasion, you convince your benefactor to grant you even more power. You gain the following benefits:
• You gain a single Pact Magic spell slot. This slot's level is equal to 1/4 your level. If you already possess the Pact Magic class feature, this slot is the same level as slots granted by that feature. Once you expend this spell slot, you regain it when you finish a short or long rest. • You learn two cantrips, two 1st level spells, and one 2nd level spell from the warlock spell list. Charisma is your spellcasting ability for these spells.
source: Eldritch Insights
Edit: Sorry. Not another Patron but an extra Pact .. But if I remember well, they have something for the double Patron also.
I’m pretty sure those two patrons would be upset if they found out. Like two women realizing that the same man married them both in different cities, with two different lives and two different families. Not good.
Weeeeeell.... considering patrons have SEVERAL workers for them, I'd say a patron is more like a mob boss. So the character with multiple patrons would be more like a man dealing with two mob families, and being equally screwed in the end.
Still, I see what you mean with the patrons getting mad at him, so maybe I could use that against him >:)
I’m pretty sure those two patrons would be upset if they found out. Like two women realizing that the same man married them both in different cities, with two different lives and two different families. Not good.
Weeeeeell.... considering patrons have SEVERAL workers for them, I'd say a patron is more like a mob boss. So the character with multiple patrons would be more like a man dealing with two mob families, and being equally screwed in the end.
Still, I see what you mean with the patrons getting mad at him, so maybe I could use that against him >:)
Lesser Bargain Prerequisite: Requires Charisma 13 or higher You have sealed a bargain with an entity who grants you a modicum of power. You gain the following benefits:
Increase one ability score of your choice by 1, to a maximum of 20.
You gain a Pact Boon, as if you were a warlock of 3rd level. This must be a Pact Boon that you do not already possess.
Greater Bargain
Prerequisite: Requires Charisma 15 or higher
You broker for more power from your benefactor. You gain the following benefits:
Increase one ability score of your choice by 1, to a maximum of 20
You gain two warlock invocations of your choice. You must be able to meet the prerequisites for these invocations, if any. If you do not have levels in the warlock class, count your warlock level for the purposes of prerequisites as half your class level (rounded down).
Grand Bargain Prerequisite: Charisma 17 or higher, Greater Bargain feat Through masterful persuasion, you convince your benefactor to grant you even more power. You gain the following benefits:
• You gain a single Pact Magic spell slot. This slot's level is equal to 1/4 your level. If you already possess the Pact Magic class feature, this slot is the same level as slots granted by that feature. Once you expend this spell slot, you regain it when you finish a short or long rest. • You learn two cantrips, two 1st level spells, and one 2nd level spell from the warlock spell list. Charisma is your spellcasting ability for these spells.
source: Eldritch Insights
Nice. Is Eldritch Insight a publisher or is it the name of a book?
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Cedo nulli, Calcanda semel via leti. Parvi sed magni.
The rule itself isnt a terrible one. In fact, several of my friends and I have played around with it, and we agree that anything is possible, but the roleplay is the most important. How would your original patron feel if they learned about a new one? They might tolerate each other, they might despise each other, they might not care. But other classes will have an easier time with this, like rogues and fighters. A battlemaster arcane archer? Powerful and fun. An assassin mastermind? Useful. It all really depends on the campaign settings.
As far as the rules go, my party just had it so that you can take levels in a different subclass if you wanted. For example, a level 7 battlemaster fighter can dip his 8th level into champion subclass for the improved criticals, making him a level 8 fighter total, but only a level 4 battlemaster and a level 1 champion.
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The rule itself isnt a terrible one. In fact, several of my friends and I have played around with it, and we agree that anything is possible, but the roleplay is the most important. How would your original patron feel if they learned about a new one? They might tolerate each other, they might despise each other, they might not care. But other classes will have an easier time with this, like rogues and fighters. A battlemaster arcane archer? Powerful and fun. An assassin mastermind? Useful. It all really depends on the campaign settings.
As far as the rules go, my party just had it so that you can take levels in a different subclass if you wanted. For example, a level 7 battlemaster fighter can dip his 8th level into champion subclass for the improved criticals, making him a level 8 fighter total, but only a level 4 battlemaster and a level 1 champion.
I haven't done it, but this is something I've thought of having available in my game, since I have characters that are rogues but are drawn to both the arcane trickster and inquisitive subclasses. So just as a thought experiment, say a Fighter just dipped into all the PHB options at each level advance. I'm assuming proficiency bonus, ability score improvement, and extra attacks add with the "fighter" level, and the only thing really affected by the subclass jumping is the martial archetype progressions. So a fifth level fighter could in theory with this rule allowance, have improved critical, combat superiority, spellcasting and weapon bond, plus the extra attack and +2 ability score improvement of feat. Anyone want to troubleshoot this as a gamebreaker? It seems unproblematic and lands on the "jack of all trades master of none" impediment that is the consequence of actual multi classing.
As for Warlock Patron jumping, I think it depends on what warlocks are in your game lore. It seems the lore associated with the RAW assumes warlocks are devoted to their patron, but there's also implications that the patron may have a fickle regard or lack of concern/awareness of the warlock. Also within the broader lore of fantasy there are plenty of warlock type characters or characters actually identifying as warlocks (looking at you, Constantine) who traffic in favors/boons across the equivalent of supernatural power centers. This wheeling and dealing certainly has role playing implications, but I wonder if additional restraints may be an option such as using the boons associated with one patron when working on behalf of the portfolio of another patron who is at odds with the initial patron. Seems like a fun mess to work out.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
maybe look to a well known Warlock for inspiration - John Constantine. This is almost exactly how he avoided death. For anyone not aware John Constantine, diagnosed with incurable lung cancer and approaching his final days sells his soul to three Demon lords of hell. On his deathbed they all appear to claim it, however none of the three are willing to back down from the claim on Johns soul. As John closes in on death it is clear that hell will tear itself apart as the demon lords forces are prepared to go to war for their prize, so they use their powers to heal John to prevent a war.
so narratively it could set you up a very interesting end game
Lore-wise? Maybe you have to sell your soul for the patron, which you can't do twice?
Lore-wise maybe if you want to lock warlocks to a patron, but PHB talks about deals and agreements, not necessarily souls (in fact selling one's soul I don't think is even mentioned in a quick PHB skim). Non Warlocks making deals with Devils is detailed most in depth in Descent in Avernus, and there are lots of boons and benefits one could get from dealing before finally selling off one's soul. Warlocks in the PHB are described as explorers of forbidden knowledge. What would be more forbidden than crossing pacts. Aforementioned Constantine is good inspiration. For people with a deep knowledge of Buffy, Giles' days as Ripper seem to imply some Warlockesque dealing. As for why would a patron grant boons to a Warlock if not for a soul? Agency on the mortal plane. That said, dipping around Warlock packs seems messier mechanically than the fighter/rogue subclass dipping we've discussed so far. So I could see a conception of a Warlock who follows or maintains loyalty to one patron and grows accordingly. I could also see a Warlock who diversifies their understanding of interplanar powers and diversifies his pacts. Leads to trickier role playing possibly. Also what a patron would expect from a committed loyalist would be different from a dilettante known to be making deals across law, chaos, good and evil.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
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Yes, multiclassing into the same class in order to gain an additional subclass/archetype isn't in the rules, but I think it makes sense lore-wise:
why would the warlock NOT be able to have multiple patrons? What really harms the game if they do? I mean, if the player has fun without hurting fun for others, why not?
Now... does anyone have any homebrew rules or anything to help me do this in the game beyond normal multiclass rules (which I've already read)?
I’m pretty sure those two patrons would be upset if they found out. Like two women realizing that the same man married them both in different cities, with two different lives and two different families. Not good.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Prerequisite: Requires Charisma 13 or higher
You have sealed a bargain with an entity who grants you a modicum of power. You gain the following benefits:
Grand Bargain
Prerequisite: Charisma 17 or higher, Greater Bargain feat
Through masterful persuasion, you convince your benefactor to grant you even more power. You gain the following benefits:
• You gain a single Pact Magic spell slot. This slot's level is equal to 1/4 your level. If you already possess the Pact Magic class feature, this slot is the same level as slots granted by that feature. Once you expend this spell slot, you regain it when you finish a short or long rest.
• You learn two cantrips, two 1st level spells, and one 2nd level spell from the warlock spell list. Charisma is your spellcasting ability for these spells.
source: Eldritch Insights
Edit: Sorry. Not another Patron but an extra Pact .. But if I remember well, they have something for the double Patron also.
playing since 1986
Weeeeeell.... considering patrons have SEVERAL workers for them, I'd say a patron is more like a mob boss. So the character with multiple patrons would be more like a man dealing with two mob families, and being equally screwed in the end.
Still, I see what you mean with the patrons getting mad at him, so maybe I could use that against him >:)
I would
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Nice. Is Eldritch Insight a publisher or is it the name of a book?
Cedo nulli, Calcanda semel via leti.
Parvi sed magni.
This might help you: Create-A-Patron: A Warlock Patron Creation Guide by Matthew Gravelyn
playing since 1986
The rule itself isnt a terrible one. In fact, several of my friends and I have played around with it, and we agree that anything is possible, but the roleplay is the most important. How would your original patron feel if they learned about a new one? They might tolerate each other, they might despise each other, they might not care. But other classes will have an easier time with this, like rogues and fighters. A battlemaster arcane archer? Powerful and fun. An assassin mastermind? Useful. It all really depends on the campaign settings.
As far as the rules go, my party just had it so that you can take levels in a different subclass if you wanted. For example, a level 7 battlemaster fighter can dip his 8th level into champion subclass for the improved criticals, making him a level 8 fighter total, but only a level 4 battlemaster and a level 1 champion.
I love roleplaying, message me so we can set something up.
I talk everything D&D, message me for questions, chat, arguements, or roleplay!
I haven't done it, but this is something I've thought of having available in my game, since I have characters that are rogues but are drawn to both the arcane trickster and inquisitive subclasses. So just as a thought experiment, say a Fighter just dipped into all the PHB options at each level advance. I'm assuming proficiency bonus, ability score improvement, and extra attacks add with the "fighter" level, and the only thing really affected by the subclass jumping is the martial archetype progressions. So a fifth level fighter could in theory with this rule allowance, have improved critical, combat superiority, spellcasting and weapon bond, plus the extra attack and +2 ability score improvement of feat. Anyone want to troubleshoot this as a gamebreaker? It seems unproblematic and lands on the "jack of all trades master of none" impediment that is the consequence of actual multi classing.
As for Warlock Patron jumping, I think it depends on what warlocks are in your game lore. It seems the lore associated with the RAW assumes warlocks are devoted to their patron, but there's also implications that the patron may have a fickle regard or lack of concern/awareness of the warlock. Also within the broader lore of fantasy there are plenty of warlock type characters or characters actually identifying as warlocks (looking at you, Constantine) who traffic in favors/boons across the equivalent of supernatural power centers. This wheeling and dealing certainly has role playing implications, but I wonder if additional restraints may be an option such as using the boons associated with one patron when working on behalf of the portfolio of another patron who is at odds with the initial patron. Seems like a fun mess to work out.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Lore-wise? Maybe you have to sell your soul for the patron, which you can't do twice?
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
maybe look to a well known Warlock for inspiration - John Constantine. This is almost exactly how he avoided death. For anyone not aware John Constantine, diagnosed with incurable lung cancer and approaching his final days sells his soul to three Demon lords of hell. On his deathbed they all appear to claim it, however none of the three are willing to back down from the claim on Johns soul. As John closes in on death it is clear that hell will tear itself apart as the demon lords forces are prepared to go to war for their prize, so they use their powers to heal John to prevent a war.
so narratively it could set you up a very interesting end game
Lore-wise maybe if you want to lock warlocks to a patron, but PHB talks about deals and agreements, not necessarily souls (in fact selling one's soul I don't think is even mentioned in a quick PHB skim). Non Warlocks making deals with Devils is detailed most in depth in Descent in Avernus, and there are lots of boons and benefits one could get from dealing before finally selling off one's soul. Warlocks in the PHB are described as explorers of forbidden knowledge. What would be more forbidden than crossing pacts. Aforementioned Constantine is good inspiration. For people with a deep knowledge of Buffy, Giles' days as Ripper seem to imply some Warlockesque dealing. As for why would a patron grant boons to a Warlock if not for a soul? Agency on the mortal plane. That said, dipping around Warlock packs seems messier mechanically than the fighter/rogue subclass dipping we've discussed so far. So I could see a conception of a Warlock who follows or maintains loyalty to one patron and grows accordingly. I could also see a Warlock who diversifies their understanding of interplanar powers and diversifies his pacts. Leads to trickier role playing possibly. Also what a patron would expect from a committed loyalist would be different from a dilettante known to be making deals across law, chaos, good and evil.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.