Let's say a bad guy has a Programmed Illusion where he appears, says something pompous, and appears to start casting a spell, at which point you tell the PCs to roll initiative (the BBEG is actually around as well and nearby, he just figures he might bait the PCs into wasting some spells or attacks, and programmed illusions are cheap).
What initiative does the illusion act at?
Which actions the PCs will reveal the illusion?
If the PCs attack, what AC does the illusion have?
Does physical interaction actually reveal "its an illusion" or just "attacks pass through it with no apparent effect"? I mean, if you tell the players the latter they might just figure the BBEG is unfairly badass rather than being an illusion.
If the illusion's action arrives before it's been revealed, what happens if a PC tries to counterspell?
I'd just roll for the BBEG if he's in the room, and act on that roll.
Your call, but at the very least any touch-ranged physical interaction should do it. I'd also allow Insight checks, DC of at least 16, possibly as high as 25 depending on how "good" he's made it. You should probably also roll a secret Insight check at a lower DC for every "interaction". Have a stack of "you think this might be an illusion" notes on hand.
No AC, it's an imaginary image. Melee attacks put the lie to the illusion, ranged attacks may or may not, depending on the expected effect.
See 1 and 3.
DC 16 dispels the illusion. Otherwise "your Counter appears to have had no effect on the spell in progress."
I'd totally add one of those cool anime style Spell Shouts to the illusion to make it a DC 25.
"I've see you made it this far. Well done. But of course you realize you're all about to die, for you cannot defeat that which you cannot touch. FIZZBIN'S PERFECT GHOST FORM!!" Then everything that doesn't affect the image is obviously failing because he's got Ghost Form....
Bounty's answers seem about right, give or take a couple AC or DC points. Although I wouldn't let counterspell dispel the illusion. I'd just say the spell (counterspell) fails. Counterspell is already strong enough, I wouldn't want to set a precedent that it works like dispel magic.
I'd throw in any spells that target a creature would reveal its an illusion, because since there's no creature to target, the spell will fail. The caster will still lose the spell, but they'll know why.
Well, the check is pretty clearly investigation vs spell save DC. My thoughts were
Any physical interaction (ranged attack, damaging spell, whatever) will reveal that the illusion is insubstantial. The PCs may interpret that however they will.
Spending your action attacking or casting spells at the illusion will be treated as equivalent to spending your action to make an investigation check.
Counterspell has the problem that its trigger is "you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell", not "you see a creature within 60 feet of doing something that looks like casting a spell". This is a general issue with reactions: they're triggered by an actual event, not the appearance of an event.
Well, the check is pretty clearly investigation vs spell save DC.
Yeah, Gronard in me never quite adapts to whatever this editions Skills list is. Sorry. I've actually taken to offering "best of two" in my games, just because A) nothing ever seems to fit perfectly, and 2) players like feeling useful. Investigation or Insight, your choice, probably won't break the game.
Counterspell has the problem that its trigger is "you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell", not "you see a creature within 60 feet of doing something that looks like casting a spell". This is a general issue with reactions: they're triggered by an actual event, not the appearance of an event.
ooooh, another excellent point. I missed the 'Reaction' as cast time, and assuming 'Action' I looked at DC 10+ Spell Level. Should definitely look at Counterspell vs. Dispel Magic now.
Any physical interaction (ranged attack, damaging spell, whatever) will reveal that the illusion is insubstantial. The PCs may interpret that however they will.
I'd end the charade right there. I mean, what's the point of continuing? You've already tricked them, and if they have the impression that an attack would reveal an illusion (which is a completely reasonable expectation to have) then now they're going to try everything but check if it's an illusion and then feel cheated when you reveal the truth. At that point, it's not the BBEG tricking the characters, it's you tricking the players. And that's not really fair when you know everything and they only get to know what you let them know.
You're essentially saying, "It's not my fault you didn't know how illusions work." But actually, it kinda is. The rules around illusions are intentionally vague which leaves a lot of room for misalignment of expectations. I think if you want to use them for important scenes you need to iron that stuff out beforehand.
My problem is "Physical interaction with the image reveals it to be an illusion, because things can pass through it." doesn't make sense, because there are entities and creatures other than illusions where the exact same thing would be true. Most of them are equally pointless to interact with, such as an ethereal ghost (it's visible, but you can't really do anything to it; I would assume creatures that are merely incorporeal still have some sort of interaction with things passing through them), but it's not clear what would distinguish an illusion from something else.
A personal rule I use is that if a creature or players passive investigation is higher than the spell save dc they are suspicious of the illusion I have them roll investigation or encourage them too. If it's not then the player needs to choose to roll entirely of their own initiative and monsters treat it as real until some thing happens.
Other wise:
the illusion would use the monsters initiative or you just have it act like the environment I.E initiative count 20 like a lair action.
Any investigation, ability check that would involve touching like a shove or attack roll. Saving throws cannot reveal illusions because illusions are invalid targets meaning they appear to have succeeded their saving throw.
10 is the default when things don't have an ac but you can also rule it automatically hits
Any physical interaction reveals it's an illusion. Illusions are not really holograms. When touched the vanish kind of like the mirror image
The illusion is an Invalid target for counterspell this means the spell fails and the player believes they succeeded any relevant saves ect.... So for counter spell you'd have them roll as if the spell were high level and tell them they failed. Of course afterwards the spell either does nothing or you fake something and that physical interactions reveals it to be an illusion. I recommend faking some like a wall of fire if you don't want them to catch on after the spell.
the illusion would use the monsters initiative or you just have it act like the environment I.E initiative count 20 like a lair action.
Any investigation, ability check that would involve touching like a [action]shove[/action or attack roll. Saving throws cannot reveal illusions because illusions are invalid targets meaning they appear to have succeeded their saving throw.
10 is the default when things don't have an ac but you can also rule it automatically hits
Any physical interaction reveals it's an illusion. Illusions are not really holograms. When touched the vanish kind of like the mirror image
The illusion is an Invalid target for counterspell this means the spell fails and the player believes they succeeded any relevant saves ect.... So for counter spell you'd have them roll as if the spell were high level and tell them they failed. Of course afterwards the spell either does nothing or you fake something and that physical interactions reveals it to be an illusion. I recommend faking some like a wall of fire if you don't want them to catch on after the spell.
2. While true for save or suck spells that rely on a mental ability or constitution, for other spell I would describer what they see. Say for example firebal is cast on the illusion. A dexterity saving throw is based on quickly of movement to get behind cover or some other way to avoid the worst of the blast the illusion carries out its pre programmed actions and doenot react in any way to the fireball nor does it appear to take damage. The party could think it is immune to fire but that is a conclusion for them to come up with.
3. As an arrow hitting armor can sometime be a "miss" if it just bounces of a plate and as the image is not reacting and dodging out the way I think an AC of 10 is reasonable, on a "Hit" the arrow appears to go straight through the caster (probably revealing the illusion), if they get less than a 10 it appears ot miss
4. I disagree with this. A physical interaction reveals an illusion it doesn't end it. Put your hand into a holgram and it is reveals as an illusion.
5. I agree the illusion is an invalid target. Not sure why wall of fire would be good if you dont want the players to catch on, The BBEG if they want the illusion to continue after the spell have 2 or 3 options
Have the spell be something with no physical showing (e.g .stoneskin) if successfully cast
Have the effect of the spell as part of the illusion (e.g. cast invisibility as disappear) (if this is counterspelled and the ailty check is 19 or more the players but not their PCs will know something is afoot (though a subtle casting of counterspell to counter the counterspell would fit from what the players see, so you could imply to the players that is what must have happened
The rules don't say if an illusion is revealed if the illusion appears ot cast fireball, no fireball goes off (as that was not part of the illuson) but counterspell was attempted the illusions casting. I would say that the caster of counterspell seeing no fireball go off believes their counterspell succeeded. (If counterspell is not cast then the illusion is revealed by virtue of the spell doing nothing..
the illusion would use the monsters initiative or you just have it act like the environment I.E initiative count 20 like a lair action.
Any investigation, ability check that would involve touching like a [action]shove[/action or attack roll. Saving throws cannot reveal illusions because illusions are invalid targets meaning they appear to have succeeded their saving throw.
10 is the default when things don't have an ac but you can also rule it automatically hits
Any physical interaction reveals it's an illusion. Illusions are not really holograms. When touched the vanish kind of like the mirror image
The illusion is an Invalid target for counterspell this means the spell fails and the player believes they succeeded any relevant saves ect.... So for counter spell you'd have them roll as if the spell were high level and tell them they failed. Of course afterwards the spell either does nothing or you fake something and that physical interactions reveals it to be an illusion. I recommend faking some like a wall of fire if you don't want them to catch on after the spell.
2. While true for save or suck spells that rely on a mental ability or constitution, for other spell I would describer what they see. Say for example firebal is cast on the illusion. A dexterity saving throw is based on quickly of movement to get behind cover or some other way to avoid the worst of the blast the illusion carries out its pre programmed actions and doenot react in any way to the fireball nor does it appear to take damage. The party could think it is immune to fire but that is a conclusion for them to come up with.
3. As an arrow hitting armor can sometime be a "miss" if it just bounces of a plate and as the image is not reacting and dodging out the way I think an AC of 10 is reasonable, on a "Hit" the arrow appears to go straight through the caster (probably revealing the illusion), if they get less than a 10 it appears ot miss
4. I disagree with this. A physical interaction reveals an illusion it doesn't end it. Put your hand into a holgram and it is reveals as an illusion.
5. I agree the illusion is an invalid target. Not sure why wall of fire would be good if you dont want the players to catch on, The BBEG if they want the illusion to continue after the spell have 2 or 3 options
Have the spell be something with no physical showing (e.g .stoneskin) if successfully cast
Have the effect of the spell as part of the illusion (e.g. cast invisibility as disappear) (if this is counterspelled and the ailty check is 19 or more the players but not their PCs will know something is afoot (though a subtle casting of counterspell to counter the counterspell would fit from what the players see, so you could imply to the players that is what must have happened
The rules don't say if an illusion is revealed if the illusion appears ot cast fireball, no fireball goes off (as that was not part of the illuson) but counterspell was attempted the illusions casting. I would say that the caster of counterspell seeing no fireball go off believes their counterspell succeeded. (If counterspell is not cast then the illusion is revealed by virtue of the spell doing nothing..
2)The rule regarding saving throws on invalid targets in xanathars guide ( which I linked) is that the player is told the target succeeds on the saving throw but you are right if it is a spell which has an effect on a successful saving throw then you are meant to tell players it does nothing. Id be cautious about making immunities too obvious though, cr calculations assume players lose some damage/turns to hitting immunities and resistances. You'll find some high cr monsters a push over if this information is clearly available.
4)As for if an illusion ends if they are made contact with, I think that's what is meant by it turning transparent. For example if you touch an illusory wall its not just that they now know it's an illusion but they can now see through it ending any disadvantage from being obscured. Illusions loses some of their form when discovered and functionally end for individuals that discover it.
5)Wall of fire or similar damaging wall spells are good to prevent players from catching on because it can create an apparent hazard they wouldn't want to touch but doesn't need to be cast directly on top of them in a way that would reveal the illusion. Personally I think an illusion designed to fake failing a spell or simply casting a self buff and doing nothing is not very intimidating so a wall spell works better to block their path.
Counter spell is kind of a grey area because it's technically not a save which is what the rules state but in the spirit of the rules I would similarly say you should simply fake a roll and act like they have some ability which stopped counter spell.
4)As for if an illusion ends if they are made contact with I think that's what is meant by it turning transparent.
The illusion becoming transparent is an effect of it being revealed, not an effect of it being touched. Hallucinatory Terrain clearly specifies that the illusion is only dispelled by touch if the difference between illusion and reality would be obvious by touch. Major Image, Minor Illusion, and Silent Image all have the physical interaction restriction, but don't specify how this works in cases where characters would actually expect the illusion to be intangible.
4)As for if an illusion ends if they are made contact with I think that's what is meant by it turning transparent.
The illusion becoming transparent is an effect of it being revealed, not an effect of it being touched. Hallucinatory Terrain clearly specifies that the illusion is only dispelled by touch if the difference between illusion and reality would be obvious by touch. Major Image, Minor Illusion, and Silent Image all have the physical interaction restriction, but don't specify how this works in cases where characters would actually expect the illusion to be intangible.
Right, it does depend on the spell. Not all spells have the stipulation that they go transparent when discovered but some do.
Though my personal attitude is that with major image ect... even if the illusion would be intangible the object disrupts it. I think that's truer to the letter of the spell as I think if it was going to treat different kinds of images or physical interactions differently it would really have to say so or make some reference to a dm's decision like the spell hallucinatory terrain does. If the image spells said something like "If the difference is obvious" as hallucinatory terrain does I would say the illusion could hold up to contact in some cases but it doesn't.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Let's say a bad guy has a Programmed Illusion where he appears, says something pompous, and appears to start casting a spell, at which point you tell the PCs to roll initiative (the BBEG is actually around as well and nearby, he just figures he might bait the PCs into wasting some spells or attacks, and programmed illusions are cheap).
I'd totally add one of those cool anime style Spell Shouts to the illusion to make it a DC 25.
"I've see you made it this far. Well done. But of course you realize you're all about to die, for you cannot defeat that which you cannot touch. FIZZBIN'S PERFECT GHOST FORM!!" Then everything that doesn't affect the image is obviously failing because he's got Ghost Form....
Bounty's answers seem about right, give or take a couple AC or DC points. Although I wouldn't let counterspell dispel the illusion. I'd just say the spell (counterspell) fails. Counterspell is already strong enough, I wouldn't want to set a precedent that it works like dispel magic.
I'd throw in any spells that target a creature would reveal its an illusion, because since there's no creature to target, the spell will fail. The caster will still lose the spell, but they'll know why.
Well, the check is pretty clearly investigation vs spell save DC. My thoughts were
Yeah, Gronard in me never quite adapts to whatever this editions Skills list is. Sorry. I've actually taken to offering "best of two" in my games, just because A) nothing ever seems to fit perfectly, and 2) players like feeling useful. Investigation or Insight, your choice, probably won't break the game.
ooooh, another excellent point. I missed the 'Reaction' as cast time, and assuming 'Action' I looked at DC 10+ Spell Level. Should definitely look at Counterspell vs. Dispel Magic now.
I'd end the charade right there. I mean, what's the point of continuing? You've already tricked them, and if they have the impression that an attack would reveal an illusion (which is a completely reasonable expectation to have) then now they're going to try everything but check if it's an illusion and then feel cheated when you reveal the truth. At that point, it's not the BBEG tricking the characters, it's you tricking the players. And that's not really fair when you know everything and they only get to know what you let them know.
You're essentially saying, "It's not my fault you didn't know how illusions work." But actually, it kinda is. The rules around illusions are intentionally vague which leaves a lot of room for misalignment of expectations. I think if you want to use them for important scenes you need to iron that stuff out beforehand.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
My problem is "Physical interaction with the image reveals it to be an illusion, because things can pass through it." doesn't make sense, because there are entities and creatures other than illusions where the exact same thing would be true. Most of them are equally pointless to interact with, such as an ethereal ghost (it's visible, but you can't really do anything to it; I would assume creatures that are merely incorporeal still have some sort of interaction with things passing through them), but it's not clear what would distinguish an illusion from something else.
A personal rule I use is that if a creature or players passive investigation is higher than the spell save dc they are suspicious of the illusion I have them roll investigation or encourage them too. If it's not then the player needs to choose to roll entirely of their own initiative and monsters treat it as real until some thing happens.
Other wise:
2. While true for save or suck spells that rely on a mental ability or constitution, for other spell I would describer what they see. Say for example firebal is cast on the illusion. A dexterity saving throw is based on quickly of movement to get behind cover or some other way to avoid the worst of the blast the illusion carries out its pre programmed actions and doenot react in any way to the fireball nor does it appear to take damage. The party could think it is immune to fire but that is a conclusion for them to come up with.
3. As an arrow hitting armor can sometime be a "miss" if it just bounces of a plate and as the image is not reacting and dodging out the way I think an AC of 10 is reasonable, on a "Hit" the arrow appears to go straight through the caster (probably revealing the illusion), if they get less than a 10 it appears ot miss
4. I disagree with this. A physical interaction reveals an illusion it doesn't end it. Put your hand into a holgram and it is reveals as an illusion.
5. I agree the illusion is an invalid target. Not sure why wall of fire would be good if you dont want the players to catch on, The BBEG if they want the illusion to continue after the spell have 2 or 3 options
2)The rule regarding saving throws on invalid targets in xanathars guide ( which I linked) is that the player is told the target succeeds on the saving throw but you are right if it is a spell which has an effect on a successful saving throw then you are meant to tell players it does nothing. Id be cautious about making immunities too obvious though, cr calculations assume players lose some damage/turns to hitting immunities and resistances. You'll find some high cr monsters a push over if this information is clearly available.
4)As for if an illusion ends if they are made contact with, I think that's what is meant by it turning transparent. For example if you touch an illusory wall its not just that they now know it's an illusion but they can now see through it ending any disadvantage from being obscured. Illusions loses some of their form when discovered and functionally end for individuals that discover it.
5)Wall of fire or similar damaging wall spells are good to prevent players from catching on because it can create an apparent hazard they wouldn't want to touch but doesn't need to be cast directly on top of them in a way that would reveal the illusion. Personally I think an illusion designed to fake failing a spell or simply casting a self buff and doing nothing is not very intimidating so a wall spell works better to block their path.
Counter spell is kind of a grey area because it's technically not a save which is what the rules state but in the spirit of the rules I would similarly say you should simply fake a roll and act like they have some ability which stopped counter spell.
The illusion becoming transparent is an effect of it being revealed, not an effect of it being touched. Hallucinatory Terrain clearly specifies that the illusion is only dispelled by touch if the difference between illusion and reality would be obvious by touch. Major Image, Minor Illusion, and Silent Image all have the physical interaction restriction, but don't specify how this works in cases where characters would actually expect the illusion to be intangible.
Right, it does depend on the spell. Not all spells have the stipulation that they go transparent when discovered but some do.
Though my personal attitude is that with major image ect... even if the illusion would be intangible the object disrupts it. I think that's truer to the letter of the spell as I think if it was going to treat different kinds of images or physical interactions differently it would really have to say so or make some reference to a dm's decision like the spell hallucinatory terrain does. If the image spells said something like "If the difference is obvious" as hallucinatory terrain does I would say the illusion could hold up to contact in some cases but it doesn't.