TL,DR: How long do you take time to introduce a BBEG and how obvious do you make it? How much plot do you have planned out beforehand?
so I played two sessions with my group and they are close to finding a dungeon where a list of guards (letter/paper) is located. The guards looked away on certain cargo that went through the city because the resources are need in order to summon a demon king that wants to restore the world to its old "glory days".
Now... the Demon Lord needs an ally for this. I am not sure if it should be a npc that uses a class or some other creature. Originally I did not want to not let them know this that early but i have the impression that players need a BBEG as soon as possible. I am thinking of a guy/monster that is doing a ritual when they arrive at the dungeon and thereby they know who the BBEG really is. I was also thinking of a NPC that takes the form of an already killed NPC (the guard leader) because with that I could give the whole of it some mystery etc.
My original plan was that they know bring the list of the guards somewhere (the city guards main building or something like that) and then the commander of that guard says something like: Oh, thank you for reporting, we will investigate the issue further. But then the players don't have another "real" goal. I would need another kind of hook in order to get them pulled into the 'main-story' again. In the first place I wanted to let them realize by time that the guild that the guards work for are summoning that demon prince by hoarding this material and another guild also wants that material to 'forge more powerful weapons' (in reality they realized how to give certain beings an endless life without aging).
I would really love to see your spin on this. Thank you guys a lot in advance!
I usually use this to make my villains. Unfortunately it was taken off giantitp for some reason, but I found a copy via the wayback machine. It's very useful for providing motivation, goals, etc. for your villains.
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"Ignorance is bliss, and you look absolutely miserable."
Really depends on the campaign. In some, especially a large city... foreshadowing by having the PCs watch a scene with the leader or some of his higher ranking underlings can be very informative and shape the tone of the campaign. So, early is very good for that. Some campaigns they bounce from Big Bad to Big Bad and only some foreshadowing happens until they piece together what is happening and then begin to climb the summit of the story. In most, I like mixing it up somewhere between the two. Some foreshadowing of what seems to be the Big Bad, but turns into an underling or just has information that leads to another segment of the whole story. And sometimes, you run the risk of never getting to the Big Bads because of how things turn out... and that's ok too. Build it together with the players, have fun and it will all work out.
In my Champions game years ago, the BBEG was actually the NPC who was cloaked in shadows but got the PCs together to form a hero group. They thought he was a good guy (called "Mentor") until they found out like 12 adventures later that he was using them as pawns to further the conquest of earth. There were hints (that they mostly did not pick up on) but the thing ended on the 15th adventure with them defeating him and his invading army and sending him back to his own world.
In my current game, they knew "something" had hit and wiped out Roman cities starting 5 years ago, so presumably knew someone was behind it, but they didn't find out until the end of the 5th adventure a name and general identity of the bad guy. They still don't know all that much about him.
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I often keep the spot kind of open with several NPCs that could be the BBEG. The one that receives the most attention/engagement/suspicion from the players gets the job. My best recurring villains started out as just regular NPCs that got away or did something clever and suddenly the party was sure that they were someone important.
It very much depends on the campaign. My current campaign that has just started I have a very clear first arc involving an Aboleth because I haven’t run a proper aboleth arc before and have always wanted to. I want to play this out as an invasion of the body snatchers idea with townsfolk slowly being enslaved and players slowly realising something is going on. I have decided the Aboleth lair has been uncovered in a mine near to the town the players are starting in. The Aboleth needs an ally in town so this led to me creating a Wizard. The Wizard is willingly working with the Aboleth and is not enslaved. He is working to undermine the current town council and just raise general tension and suspicion in the town, his ultimate goal is to be made mayor so he can then influence the town to do help the Aboleth and ensure the right people are enslaved.
So that formed the basis of my idea. I don’t want anything revealed quickly so for levels 1-3 I will be creating encounters as we go, there is a bandit camp nearby, the bandits where encouraged here by the wizard, there is a missing merchant to be found, there will be some sort of water based creature attacking dock workers (to foreshadow the eventual underwater fight with the Aboleth). There will be a demon summoning and a real drive to make the players think this is going to turn into a demon fighting adventure and other things I will create in the fly.
But as to when I let the players know there is an Aboleth nearby, I am thinking I will start dropping hints from level 4 onwards and the wizard, that will be down to the PCs, as far as they are aware he is a friendly helpful NPC feeding them adventures, selling magic items etc. I will say, players don’t need a BBE if the world is compelling and the reward is there.
From levels 1-4 I fully intend to use cash and magic items as the driver as well as some interesting smaller arcs that take the players into the surrounding area and get them invested in the town and the NPCs involved. In fact if it comes together right the players won’t know exactly what is going on until they are about to face and fight the Aboleth.
Now the wizard is for me a really compelling idea that, if the players give him an opportunity, may escape and continue to fight another day but I will very much leave that up to how the characters behave, what they do and then what I believe he would do in reaction.
My current campaign "plan" (if I dare call it that, as such things invariably go astray) is that the party is tasked with recovering a woman who has been kidnapped. The quest I've outlined in very loose plot points (and I'm fully prepared to have the plot go AWOL) will take up a fair amount of time and give plenty of sub-quests. I expect the party will advance from level 2 (starting level) to level 6-7 before they finish it. By the time they do, they will have uncovered some foreshadowing of their next quest. I've not even settled on a BBEG for the campaign yet!
I started my PCs on a ship at level 1, the BBEG Dimension Door'd onto the ship and then unleashed a kraken against the ship. They had to abandon ship and flee in a boat while it chased them. They've now seen some of the bad effects as they exlore the mainland, but the BBEG is about to invade their dreams.
You want to get the BBEG on-screen ASAP. Ideally, your characters will meet them roughly once every 2 levels, so that they can converse, develop a relationship (hostile or otherwise) with the enemy, have memorable lines to say to one another ("I told you I'd be back for you!" "Remember me? Well you sure will after this..." etc). If the PCs never encounter the BBEG until they fight and destroy it, there will be very little emotional impact in that fight.
BBEG can: Attempt to persuade the PCs over to their side Ambush the PCs Invite the PCs to somewhere non-confrontational - a fair, a dinner, a theatre etc. Issues writs against the PCs Be seen at a distance doing something dastardly, across a battlefield for example Have them brought to court and charged with something Appear in dreams, especially using the dream spell.
... or anything else you like. Hell, have the BBEG ask one of the PCs on a date. Get a good personal dialogue working between them.
In fact if it comes together right the players won’t know exactly what is going on until they are about to face and fight the Aboleth.
This is something I recommend against.
To you, the designer, with an omnipotent view, this may feel like a dramatic reveal of "Oh! An ABOLETH!?" but to your players it's more likely to feel like "Oh, so it was a mind-enslaving monsters all along? Never heard of an aboleth before. Let's roll initiative." Your aboleth and all its careful plans will just be a stat block to wade through, because there is nothing of emotional personal connection to it.
The longer they know exactly what it is that they have to deal with, the more impactful it will be. How much more powerful will that fight feel (emotionally) if one of the players has already been dragged before it and temporarily enslaved in an earlier adventure? What if the aboleth speaks to them through a mind-slave NPC, or multiple?
I remember reading a book not long ago where you think that the main character is a demon all along, and the end reveal is that no, he was really a dragon. It had literally zero impact, because why was a dragon cooler than a demon? This is the same. If I don't know it's an aboleth until the moment I meet it and start blasting it with magic missiles, then why does it matter if it's an aboleth, a white dragon, a fire-giant-sorcerer or anything else?
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Hello guys,
TL,DR: How long do you take time to introduce a BBEG and how obvious do you make it? How much plot do you have planned out beforehand?
so I played two sessions with my group and they are close to finding a dungeon where a list of guards (letter/paper) is located. The guards looked away on certain cargo that went through the city because the resources are need in order to summon a demon king that wants to restore the world to its old "glory days".
Now... the Demon Lord needs an ally for this. I am not sure if it should be a npc that uses a class or some other creature. Originally I did not want to not let them know this that early but i have the impression that players need a BBEG as soon as possible. I am thinking of a guy/monster that is doing a ritual when they arrive at the dungeon and thereby they know who the BBEG really is. I was also thinking of a NPC that takes the form of an already killed NPC (the guard leader) because with that I could give the whole of it some mystery etc.
My original plan was that they know bring the list of the guards somewhere (the city guards main building or something like that) and then the commander of that guard says something like: Oh, thank you for reporting, we will investigate the issue further. But then the players don't have another "real" goal. I would need another kind of hook in order to get them pulled into the 'main-story' again. In the first place I wanted to let them realize by time that the guild that the guards work for are summoning that demon prince by hoarding this material and another guild also wants that material to 'forge more powerful weapons' (in reality they realized how to give certain beings an endless life without aging).
I would really love to see your spin on this. Thank you guys a lot in advance!
https://web.archive.org/web/20160304084955/http://www.giantitp.com/articles/rTKEivnsYuZrh94H1Sn.html
I usually use this to make my villains. Unfortunately it was taken off giantitp for some reason, but I found a copy via the wayback machine. It's very useful for providing motivation, goals, etc. for your villains.
"Ignorance is bliss, and you look absolutely miserable."
Really depends on the campaign. In some, especially a large city... foreshadowing by having the PCs watch a scene with the leader or some of his higher ranking underlings can be very informative and shape the tone of the campaign. So, early is very good for that. Some campaigns they bounce from Big Bad to Big Bad and only some foreshadowing happens until they piece together what is happening and then begin to climb the summit of the story. In most, I like mixing it up somewhere between the two. Some foreshadowing of what seems to be the Big Bad, but turns into an underling or just has information that leads to another segment of the whole story. And sometimes, you run the risk of never getting to the Big Bads because of how things turn out... and that's ok too. Build it together with the players, have fun and it will all work out.
I think it all depends on the campaign.
In my Champions game years ago, the BBEG was actually the NPC who was cloaked in shadows but got the PCs together to form a hero group. They thought he was a good guy (called "Mentor") until they found out like 12 adventures later that he was using them as pawns to further the conquest of earth. There were hints (that they mostly did not pick up on) but the thing ended on the 15th adventure with them defeating him and his invading army and sending him back to his own world.
In my current game, they knew "something" had hit and wiped out Roman cities starting 5 years ago, so presumably knew someone was behind it, but they didn't find out until the end of the 5th adventure a name and general identity of the bad guy. They still don't know all that much about him.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Some of the guards are guilty, some innocent.
The guard captain looks guilty, but is innocent and also looks guilty because he defends his guards - what good captain wouldn't defend his men?
Some royal who wants to have an increase in pay is doing the dirty.
But similar to BioWizard, the ACTUAL bad guy is the PCs favorite tavenkeeper.
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"real life is a super high CR."
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"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
I often keep the spot kind of open with several NPCs that could be the BBEG. The one that receives the most attention/engagement/suspicion from the players gets the job. My best recurring villains started out as just regular NPCs that got away or did something clever and suddenly the party was sure that they were someone important.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
It very much depends on the campaign. My current campaign that has just started I have a very clear first arc involving an Aboleth because I haven’t run a proper aboleth arc before and have always wanted to. I want to play this out as an invasion of the body snatchers idea with townsfolk slowly being enslaved and players slowly realising something is going on. I have decided the Aboleth lair has been uncovered in a mine near to the town the players are starting in. The Aboleth needs an ally in town so this led to me creating a Wizard. The Wizard is willingly working with the Aboleth and is not enslaved. He is working to undermine the current town council and just raise general tension and suspicion in the town, his ultimate goal is to be made mayor so he can then influence the town to do help the Aboleth and ensure the right people are enslaved.
So that formed the basis of my idea. I don’t want anything revealed quickly so for levels 1-3 I will be creating encounters as we go, there is a bandit camp nearby, the bandits where encouraged here by the wizard, there is a missing merchant to be found, there will be some sort of water based creature attacking dock workers (to foreshadow the eventual underwater fight with the Aboleth). There will be a demon summoning and a real drive to make the players think this is going to turn into a demon fighting adventure and other things I will create in the fly.
But as to when I let the players know there is an Aboleth nearby, I am thinking I will start dropping hints from level 4 onwards and the wizard, that will be down to the PCs, as far as they are aware he is a friendly helpful NPC feeding them adventures, selling magic items etc. I will say, players don’t need a BBE if the world is compelling and the reward is there.
From levels 1-4 I fully intend to use cash and magic items as the driver as well as some interesting smaller arcs that take the players into the surrounding area and get them invested in the town and the NPCs involved. In fact if it comes together right the players won’t know exactly what is going on until they are about to face and fight the Aboleth.
Now the wizard is for me a really compelling idea that, if the players give him an opportunity, may escape and continue to fight another day but I will very much leave that up to how the characters behave, what they do and then what I believe he would do in reaction.
My current campaign "plan" (if I dare call it that, as such things invariably go astray) is that the party is tasked with recovering a woman who has been kidnapped. The quest I've outlined in very loose plot points (and I'm fully prepared to have the plot go AWOL) will take up a fair amount of time and give plenty of sub-quests. I expect the party will advance from level 2 (starting level) to level 6-7 before they finish it. By the time they do, they will have uncovered some foreshadowing of their next quest. I've not even settled on a BBEG for the campaign yet!
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I started my PCs on a ship at level 1, the BBEG Dimension Door'd onto the ship and then unleashed a kraken against the ship. They had to abandon ship and flee in a boat while it chased them. They've now seen some of the bad effects as they exlore the mainland, but the BBEG is about to invade their dreams.
You want to get the BBEG on-screen ASAP. Ideally, your characters will meet them roughly once every 2 levels, so that they can converse, develop a relationship (hostile or otherwise) with the enemy, have memorable lines to say to one another ("I told you I'd be back for you!" "Remember me? Well you sure will after this..." etc). If the PCs never encounter the BBEG until they fight and destroy it, there will be very little emotional impact in that fight.
BBEG can:
Attempt to persuade the PCs over to their side
Ambush the PCs
Invite the PCs to somewhere non-confrontational - a fair, a dinner, a theatre etc.
Issues writs against the PCs
Be seen at a distance doing something dastardly, across a battlefield for example
Have them brought to court and charged with something
Appear in dreams, especially using the dream spell.
... or anything else you like. Hell, have the BBEG ask one of the PCs on a date. Get a good personal dialogue working between them.
This is something I recommend against.
To you, the designer, with an omnipotent view, this may feel like a dramatic reveal of "Oh! An ABOLETH!?" but to your players it's more likely to feel like "Oh, so it was a mind-enslaving monsters all along? Never heard of an aboleth before. Let's roll initiative." Your aboleth and all its careful plans will just be a stat block to wade through, because there is nothing of emotional personal connection to it.
The longer they know exactly what it is that they have to deal with, the more impactful it will be. How much more powerful will that fight feel (emotionally) if one of the players has already been dragged before it and temporarily enslaved in an earlier adventure? What if the aboleth speaks to them through a mind-slave NPC, or multiple?
I remember reading a book not long ago where you think that the main character is a demon all along, and the end reveal is that no, he was really a dragon. It had literally zero impact, because why was a dragon cooler than a demon? This is the same. If I don't know it's an aboleth until the moment I meet it and start blasting it with magic missiles, then why does it matter if it's an aboleth, a white dragon, a fire-giant-sorcerer or anything else?