I've only been a GM for a couple years, and my players have thrown me for a loop, which is why I am looking for help.
After scavenging plate armor from a couple of Fire Giants, my players would like to do one of two things - build a very large metal box from the armor, or else turn a wooden wagon into a 14th C UPS truck to be hauled by draft horses.
I've tried looking for how I would price this out / days of labor, but I'm honestly hitting dead ends. Any help you all could gift me would be appreciated.
I don't want to discourage them, because it is a clever ruse that they are planning with this construct, but I also don't want to underweight it and say "6 hours of labor and 50gp and you're done" either. I'm looking for a realistic cost for the plan.
Also, if anyone has an idea for a game cost for lead roof tiles, that would be awesome.
First, I'd say someone in the party needs proficiency in smith's tools, otherwise they're going to need to hire someone else to do it for them.
A wagon costs 35 gp and weighs 400 pounds. A chariot costs 250 gp to purchase and weighs 100. I'd say combine those. Like if they already have the wagon, figure , I don't know, 3 chariot's worth of metal and work to plate the thing. So we're looking at 600-700 pounds for the armored car. If you really want to get into it, they'll have to re-enforce the axles and wheels to be able to bear the weight of all that metal, so you could add in another chariot's worth, just to keep it fairly simple. So let's say 4 chariots, plus the wagon is 1,035 gp. Per PHB rules for crafting a nonmagical item (5 gp worth of work per person per day) it would take one person 207 days to make it. Multiple characters can work together, but each of them working needs to have the correct tool proficiency. So if for example, three characters have the proficiency, they could cut that 207 down by a third, to 69 days.
Draft horse with str 18 has a base carrying capacity of 270 pounds (str score x 15), but can pull 5 times that, so 1,350 pounds, which should cover the cart and the party, assuming they have a draft horse. Otherwise, plug in the str score for whatever animals they have to see if they're strong enough to pull the thing.
I use the ratio of 1cp ≈ 10¢ (USD) 1960. So by that metric, 1 lead tile would cost approximately 6sp,4cp
As for the the Armored Wagon, I would guesstimate the equivalent of Barding for 2 Large mounts, cut in half. (Since they already have the materials, they would only be paying for labor.) Unfortunately that would still be in the ballpark of 6k gp & 4 years time,
You might want to do it the opposite way. Decide how long you want it to take and and just charge 3gp/day.
If you want it to take 3 months, then tell them 4.5 months and 280gp, but if they pay 420gp they could have it in as little as 3 months.
If you want it to take 6 months, then tell them 9 and 370gp, but if they pay 550gp they could have it in as little as 6 months.
If you want it to take 1 year, tell them 18 months and 1,100gp, but if they pay 1,650gp they could have it in as little as 12 months.
Those prices would be for the Wagon only, actual Barding for the animals would be in addition to that,
I use the ratio of 1cp ≈ 10¢ (USD) 1960. So by that metric, 1 lead tile would cost approximately 6sp,4cp
As for the the Armored Wagon, I would guesstimate the equivalent of Barding for 2 Large mounts, cut in half. (Since they already have the materials, they would only be paying for labor.) Unfortunately that would still be in the ballpark of 6k gp & 4 years time,
You might want to do it the opposite way. Decide how long you want it to take and and just charge 3gp/day.
If you want it to take 3 months, then tell them 4.5 months and 280gp, but if they pay 420gp they could have it in as little as 3 months.
If you want it to take 6 months, then tell them 9 and 370gp, but if they pay 550gp they could have it in as little as 6 months.
If you want it to take 1 year, tell them 18 months and 1,100gp, but if they pay 1,650gp they could have it in as little as 12 months.
Those prices would be for the Wagon only, actual Barding for the animals would be in addition to that,
Some of the time factored into making armor is the forging of the plates and such from raw iron/steel. Since there are many plates already created it should cut down significant'y on time.
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The main reason armored wagons were historically very rare is because axles that could actually cope with that much weight weren't really available until the 20th century; even a pretty thin armored box is heavy.
The main reason armored wagons were historically very rare is because axles that could actually cope with that much weight weren't really available until the 20th century; even a pretty thin armored box is heavy.
This is true. Honestly, Mithral for the armor and Adamantine for the axles would be the most “realistic.” However, the mere fact that the last sentence mentioned two completely fictional elements/alloys, and that the OP mentioned armor taken from imaginary creatures…. Just sayin.’
The main reason armored wagons were historically very rare is because axles that could actually cope with that much weight weren't really available until the 20th century; even a pretty thin armored box is heavy.
This is true. Honestly, Mithral for the armor and Adamantine for the axles would be the most “realistic.” However, the mere fact that the last sentence mentioned two completely fictional elements/alloys, and that the OP mentioned armor taken from imaginary creatures…. Just sayin.’
OP can hand-wave away the axle problem if they want to by declaring that fire giant steel is better than human steel and hence can be made into a superior axle.
I'd do it like this, based on Sposta's excellent idea; I'm assuming the wagon is roughly a rowboat on wheels, so about 5x10, and Large:
Using the barding rules as a base, declare that the base cost of wagon barding is quadruple the cost for armor, but having two entire suits on hand provides the materials cost, so there's no actual gp expenditure for the materials. In terms of time taken, we're looking at 6000 gp of work.
Labor completed is 5 gp per worker per 8 hours of work (which I'll call a workday from now on), which can be done in tandem - e.g. there's no reason one person can't work on the roof while another works on the axle. That means the barding will cost 1200 laborer workdays. Each laborer needs smithing proficiency, and the labor itself needs a smithy.
A modest lifestyle covers the cost of sharing a smithy with others, while comfortable provides a private smithy. Assuming modest, that adds 1 gp per real day to the cost, but that same cost covers food and rent for 1 person.
Blacksmiths cost 2 gp per "day", which is probably really 8 hours of work, not really an entire day. Because they can work in parallel or in sequence, if you set a limit on how many can work on the wagon at once, the limit immediately triples, by having workers work in shifts if necessary.
A practical limit is necessary, as it's implausible 1200 workers can work on the wagon simultaneously. Let's ballpark it at 1 per 5x5 panel of the box we're talking about, so 2 for each long side and 1 for short, which is 10, plus 1 per wheel and 1 per axle, so 16, doubled to approximate a competent assembly line, so 32 at once. That's maximum 96 per real day.
So assuming you're in a metropolis, so it's possible to find and hire 96 blacksmiths, the cost per real day is 96*2+1 gp, or 193 gp. The time cost to complete the work is a bit messy since the RAW doesn't allow for early completion, but you can just override the RAW for being silly, so let's use the real time it'll take, 1200/96 = 12.5 days. That's 12.5*96*2 in labor costs and 13 gp for the modest lifestyle, or 2413 gp in labor costs. So, rounding that off to whole numbers (especially so you don't need to argue with the blacksmiths about paying for their entire final shifts), about two weeks and 2500 gp to get it done.
You can double the lifestyle cost to comfortable without modifying the rounding, it'll just come to 2426 gp.
tl;dr 2 weeks, 2500 gp in a bustling city. Time and gp costs go up the fewer smiths working on the wagon at once - I assumed 96 workers per real day, working in 3 separate shifts of 32 each shift.
You all have given me some excellent sources for approaching this, and I appreciate it very much! You've given me a great basis for figuring out rules for my group, and I look forward to seeing how they take this. Once they see the time and costs, they may drop this idea like a hot rock!
OP can hand-wave away the axle problem if they want to by declaring that fire giant steel is better than human steel and hence can be made into a superior axle.
Lots of ways to handwave it, it's not like D&D is a historically accurate setting. Just don't think of it as "ordinary cart with metal bolted on", it's going to be a complete custom vehicle (you aren't going to make an axle out of a suit of plate armor, though; even reshaping plates into different shaped plates will be a hassle, and reshaping a plate into an axle is basically "melt it down and recast.")
I've only been a GM for a couple years, and my players have thrown me for a loop, which is why I am looking for help.
After scavenging plate armor from a couple of Fire Giants, my players would like to do one of two things - build a very large metal box from the armor, or else turn a wooden wagon into a 14th C UPS truck to be hauled by draft horses.
I've tried looking for how I would price this out / days of labor, but I'm honestly hitting dead ends. Any help you all could gift me would be appreciated.
I don't want to discourage them, because it is a clever ruse that they are planning with this construct, but I also don't want to underweight it and say "6 hours of labor and 50gp and you're done" either. I'm looking for a realistic cost for the plan.
Also, if anyone has an idea for a game cost for lead roof tiles, that would be awesome.
Thanks!
First, I'd say someone in the party needs proficiency in smith's tools, otherwise they're going to need to hire someone else to do it for them.
A wagon costs 35 gp and weighs 400 pounds. A chariot costs 250 gp to purchase and weighs 100. I'd say combine those. Like if they already have the wagon, figure , I don't know, 3 chariot's worth of metal and work to plate the thing. So we're looking at 600-700 pounds for the armored car. If you really want to get into it, they'll have to re-enforce the axles and wheels to be able to bear the weight of all that metal, so you could add in another chariot's worth, just to keep it fairly simple. So let's say 4 chariots, plus the wagon is 1,035 gp. Per PHB rules for crafting a nonmagical item (5 gp worth of work per person per day) it would take one person 207 days to make it. Multiple characters can work together, but each of them working needs to have the correct tool proficiency. So if for example, three characters have the proficiency, they could cut that 207 down by a third, to 69 days.
Draft horse with str 18 has a base carrying capacity of 270 pounds (str score x 15), but can pull 5 times that, so 1,350 pounds, which should cover the cart and the party, assuming they have a draft horse. Otherwise, plug in the str score for whatever animals they have to see if they're strong enough to pull the thing.
As for lead tiles:
https://www.bestmaterials.com/detail.aspx?ID=18520&utm_source=google&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=surfaces-across-google&utm_term=18520
https://www.in2013dollars.com/us/inflation/2021?endYear=1960&amount=58
I use the ratio of 1cp ≈ 10¢ (USD) 1960. So by that metric, 1 lead tile would cost approximately 6sp,4cp
As for the the Armored Wagon, I would guesstimate the equivalent of Barding for 2 Large mounts, cut in half. (Since they already have the materials, they would only be paying for labor.) Unfortunately that would still be in the ballpark of 6k gp & 4 years time,
You might want to do it the opposite way. Decide how long you want it to take and and just charge 3gp/day.
Those prices would be for the Wagon only, actual Barding for the animals would be in addition to that,
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Some of the time factored into making armor is the forging of the plates and such from raw iron/steel. Since there are many plates already created it should cut down significant'y on time.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Presuming they don’t need to be resized/reshaped
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The main reason armored wagons were historically very rare is because axles that could actually cope with that much weight weren't really available until the 20th century; even a pretty thin armored box is heavy.
Reshaping a plate is easier than making a plate.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
This is true. Honestly, Mithral for the armor and Adamantine for the axles would be the most “realistic.” However, the mere fact that the last sentence mentioned two completely fictional elements/alloys, and that the OP mentioned armor taken from imaginary creatures…. Just sayin.’
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If you did mithral it would be expensive....
OP can hand-wave away the axle problem if they want to by declaring that fire giant steel is better than human steel and hence can be made into a superior axle.
I'd do it like this, based on Sposta's excellent idea; I'm assuming the wagon is roughly a rowboat on wheels, so about 5x10, and Large:
tl;dr 2 weeks, 2500 gp in a bustling city. Time and gp costs go up the fewer smiths working on the wagon at once - I assumed 96 workers per real day, working in 3 separate shifts of 32 each shift.
You all have given me some excellent sources for approaching this, and I appreciate it very much! You've given me a great basis for figuring out rules for my group, and I look forward to seeing how they take this. Once they see the time and costs, they may drop this idea like a hot rock!
Thank you again for taking the time to answer me.
Lots of ways to handwave it, it's not like D&D is a historically accurate setting. Just don't think of it as "ordinary cart with metal bolted on", it's going to be a complete custom vehicle (you aren't going to make an axle out of a suit of plate armor, though; even reshaping plates into different shaped plates will be a hassle, and reshaping a plate into an axle is basically "melt it down and recast.")
Just adding that a cart that armored would be super heavy, and they'd probably need more than the normal amount of horses to pull it.