My PCs may be undertaking the final major story arcs of the campaign, with at least 2 BBEGs to encounter. To match their capabilities as 7 PCs at lvl 4 or lvl 5 I'm thinking about how to scale up some of the templates I made for the BBEGs. Maxing HP, magical weapons/armor, Legendary and Lair actions will likely carry a lot of weight, but I wonder if any other DMs have come into this conundrum of the PCs outpacing the CR/difficulty you envisioned for certain legs of your campaigns.
I could change the template for a BBEG in substance while cosmetically keeping them the way I made them for story purposes, but if there're other ideas or inputs I appreciate the sharing.
Often I will give by BBEG's an actual character class because it's the easiest way to scale a character. Characters are also probably the strongest monster types out there (no, really! haha), and a late-level character will do a lot of work. It also makes picking strong magic items that will synergize with your villains easier too.
Giving the BBEG a scaling ability also is a fun way to make defeating them a pressing matter. I had an evil shadow elemental that permanently gained 1d4 max HP every time he killed something, and his size slowly scaled to match. If your BBEG's are wealthy, having their magical prowess or political influence scale with the gp value of their hoard can also work.
One thing I would caution against doing (unless you know your player's won't feel personally attacked or stupidly nerfed) is giving your BBEG's specific abilities and items that directly counter your character's strengths. It's no fun feeling weak and worthless as a player, and with how the power dynamic between DM and Player works it can sometimes ruin an entire session for that player. Instead, I would recommend exploiting character weaknesses, allowing them to maintain their strength. Wisdom saves for barbarians, strength saves for wizards, etc. Bonus points if the exploit incorporates the player's background or goals. If they haven't already, have your players fill out the Personality Traits, Flaws, Ideals, and Bonds part of their character sheets. That can give you more ideas with what would be an effective foil for a character that makes them feel seen and personally invested in the plot.
More actions, more actions, more actions, especially if you have a big party. A single enemy is going to go once and then all seven PCs are going to go, which means a whole lot will happen with little opportunity for you to react to it. Legendary and Lair actions are the typical way to add actions, but you could also give a BBEG a whole extra turn somewhat evenly spaced in the round or give them multiple reactions. This helps a lot to keep the fight feeling dynamic and to avoid the ol' "surround and pound" that often makes boss fights feeling anticlimactic.
That's exactly the fear, since I don't envision the BBEG having allies in either arc so it's supposed to be 1v7 (possibly 1v9 if a couple of my PCs allies show up, in which case I probably would have maybe a few minions with the BBEG). Is it then a not-gamebreaking thing to allow for, say, the BBEG to go after every other PC? I can also imagine them getting frustrated if the BBEG can go every turn, since he's already being made to be super buffed through items and stat mods and standard legendaries (which could include going after other people's turn I suppose).
More actions, more actions, more actions, especially if you have a big party. A single enemy is going to go once and then all seven PCs are going to go, which means a whole lot will happen with little opportunity for you to react to it. Legendary and Lair actions are the typical way to add actions, but you could also give a BBEG a whole extra turn somewhat evenly spaced in the round or give them multiple reactions. This helps a lot to keep the fight feeling dynamic and to avoid the ol' "surround and pound" that often makes boss fights feeling anticlimactic.
furthermore give them multiattacks. or aoe spells. if they can get smaller people to round the party up or keep them distracted then the bbeg can blast them with a fireball. this makes him a threat. and threatening fights are fun when you survive
That's exactly the fear, since I don't envision the BBEG having allies in either arc so it's supposed to be 1v7 (possibly 1v9 if a couple of my PCs allies show up, in which case I probably would have maybe a few minions with the BBEG). Is it then a not-gamebreaking thing to allow for, say, the BBEG to go after every other PC? I can also imagine them getting frustrated if the BBEG can go every turn, since he's already being made to be super buffed through items and stat mods and standard legendaries (which could include going after other people's turn I suppose).
Yeah if you think about it, 3 legendaries is basically going after every other PC's turn for your group of your size. You want to act often enough that the PCs can't completely bog you down, but going too often prevents them from being able to coordinate at all, which might be frustrating for players who enjoy tactics and working together. In general I like to have a couple legendary/reaction actions that just deal damage and one that controls the battlefield or allows the BBEG to reposition. Then you can kind of decide on the fly when it's appropriate to disrupt the party's plans.
Action economy alone for a party of 7, or 9 if allies arrive, will skew combat well into the swingy side of life. I would guess that under normal build math your BBEG would need to be a CR 17 Legendary with Lair actions just to be a challenge. But that means that the BBEG will have the ability and want to one-shot some PCs to level the playing field. From there the PCs are likely circling the drain. On the flipside, if initiative goes poorly for the BBEG, they may not get to act at all.
A better solution might be to create minion-like creatures to serve the BBEG and soak up some of the party's actions to keep the BBEG alive and give it the opportunity to move around the battlefield. Perhaps give it an ability to not provoke Opportunity Attacks when it moves or something like a BA teleport ability to keep it away from the scary swords and hammers. If your BBEG is magical or elemental in nature, perhaps an aura that does damage whenever they are hit by an attack to anyone within 5 or 10 ft. It may need to have a Recharge on 5-6 (d6) heal to 50% or 70% health. Your issue isn't neccessarily going to be with the amount of damage BBEG can deliver, but how much damage and how many actions they can take. If your party hits 5th level, the extra attack feature will run roughshod over your NPC without a single challenge being issued to the party.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
Maybe soakers isn't so bad an idea to start, and yeah I can just god-mode insert a legendary teleport or buff up the misty step this guy can do to act as a disengage basically.
One convenient way to make things less swingy is by giving your boss limited use powers (ideally ones that are save for half or something similar). The classic here is a dragon: it does an enormous amount of damage the first time it gets an action (due to its breath weapon) and then considerably lower damage in subsequent rounds. This means the PCs are going to get hurt unless they somehow take the monster out in one round, but it won't finish them off super fast.
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My PCs may be undertaking the final major story arcs of the campaign, with at least 2 BBEGs to encounter. To match their capabilities as 7 PCs at lvl 4 or lvl 5 I'm thinking about how to scale up some of the templates I made for the BBEGs. Maxing HP, magical weapons/armor, Legendary and Lair actions will likely carry a lot of weight, but I wonder if any other DMs have come into this conundrum of the PCs outpacing the CR/difficulty you envisioned for certain legs of your campaigns.
I could change the template for a BBEG in substance while cosmetically keeping them the way I made them for story purposes, but if there're other ideas or inputs I appreciate the sharing.
Often I will give by BBEG's an actual character class because it's the easiest way to scale a character. Characters are also probably the strongest monster types out there (no, really! haha), and a late-level character will do a lot of work. It also makes picking strong magic items that will synergize with your villains easier too.
Giving the BBEG a scaling ability also is a fun way to make defeating them a pressing matter. I had an evil shadow elemental that permanently gained 1d4 max HP every time he killed something, and his size slowly scaled to match. If your BBEG's are wealthy, having their magical prowess or political influence scale with the gp value of their hoard can also work.
One thing I would caution against doing (unless you know your player's won't feel personally attacked or stupidly nerfed) is giving your BBEG's specific abilities and items that directly counter your character's strengths. It's no fun feeling weak and worthless as a player, and with how the power dynamic between DM and Player works it can sometimes ruin an entire session for that player. Instead, I would recommend exploiting character weaknesses, allowing them to maintain their strength. Wisdom saves for barbarians, strength saves for wizards, etc. Bonus points if the exploit incorporates the player's background or goals. If they haven't already, have your players fill out the Personality Traits, Flaws, Ideals, and Bonds part of their character sheets. That can give you more ideas with what would be an effective foil for a character that makes them feel seen and personally invested in the plot.
More actions, more actions, more actions, especially if you have a big party. A single enemy is going to go once and then all seven PCs are going to go, which means a whole lot will happen with little opportunity for you to react to it. Legendary and Lair actions are the typical way to add actions, but you could also give a BBEG a whole extra turn somewhat evenly spaced in the round or give them multiple reactions. This helps a lot to keep the fight feeling dynamic and to avoid the ol' "surround and pound" that often makes boss fights feeling anticlimactic.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
That's exactly the fear, since I don't envision the BBEG having allies in either arc so it's supposed to be 1v7 (possibly 1v9 if a couple of my PCs allies show up, in which case I probably would have maybe a few minions with the BBEG). Is it then a not-gamebreaking thing to allow for, say, the BBEG to go after every other PC? I can also imagine them getting frustrated if the BBEG can go every turn, since he's already being made to be super buffed through items and stat mods and standard legendaries (which could include going after other people's turn I suppose).
furthermore give them multiattacks. or aoe spells. if they can get smaller people to round the party up or keep them distracted then the bbeg can blast them with a fireball. this makes him a threat. and threatening fights are fun when you survive
Yeah if you think about it, 3 legendaries is basically going after every other PC's turn for your group of your size. You want to act often enough that the PCs can't completely bog you down, but going too often prevents them from being able to coordinate at all, which might be frustrating for players who enjoy tactics and working together. In general I like to have a couple legendary/reaction actions that just deal damage and one that controls the battlefield or allows the BBEG to reposition. Then you can kind of decide on the fly when it's appropriate to disrupt the party's plans.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Action economy alone for a party of 7, or 9 if allies arrive, will skew combat well into the swingy side of life. I would guess that under normal build math your BBEG would need to be a CR 17 Legendary with Lair actions just to be a challenge. But that means that the BBEG will have the ability and want to one-shot some PCs to level the playing field. From there the PCs are likely circling the drain. On the flipside, if initiative goes poorly for the BBEG, they may not get to act at all.
A better solution might be to create minion-like creatures to serve the BBEG and soak up some of the party's actions to keep the BBEG alive and give it the opportunity to move around the battlefield. Perhaps give it an ability to not provoke Opportunity Attacks when it moves or something like a BA teleport ability to keep it away from the scary swords and hammers. If your BBEG is magical or elemental in nature, perhaps an aura that does damage whenever they are hit by an attack to anyone within 5 or 10 ft. It may need to have a Recharge on 5-6 (d6) heal to 50% or 70% health. Your issue isn't neccessarily going to be with the amount of damage BBEG can deliver, but how much damage and how many actions they can take. If your party hits 5th level, the extra attack feature will run roughshod over your NPC without a single challenge being issued to the party.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
Maybe soakers isn't so bad an idea to start, and yeah I can just god-mode insert a legendary teleport or buff up the misty step this guy can do to act as a disengage basically.
One convenient way to make things less swingy is by giving your boss limited use powers (ideally ones that are save for half or something similar). The classic here is a dragon: it does an enormous amount of damage the first time it gets an action (due to its breath weapon) and then considerably lower damage in subsequent rounds. This means the PCs are going to get hurt unless they somehow take the monster out in one round, but it won't finish them off super fast.