So player had a character die, and as per my standard approach the new character they have created I have let them look through and think of some magic items they would like (dead character had 2 magic items neither will be useful to the new character). They have asked about a weapon of warning but reading it it seems a little powerful, am I reading the rules right in that it will call out any ambush or surprise attack, or is it just for if the character is sleeping?
It is a pretty powerful item, no doubt about that. It also requires an attunement slot.
But yes, it will call out ambush and surprise attacks, so you just roll normal for initiative.
Due note though, that just because your character rolls for initiative, it doesn't mean that he knows what is going on. You could easily call a roll for initiative, then when the bad guy see's that the PC's are alert, just choose to do nothing. When the PC's look around they see nothing, because the weapon doesn't tell WHY the roll was initiated.
And so, all the bad guys could hold their action, till the last guy in their group is ready, and then unleash hell on the PC's and gain some kind of surprise. Just don't do that too often, it would just be mean :)
You and anyone within 30 feet of you can't be surprised at all, awake or asleep, unless incapacitated. I wouldn't say it was game breaking but it is a powerful ability, to completely deny an enemy a surprise round.
Yeah, "can't be surprised" just means there's no 'surprise round' for anyone within 30 feet of you after combat begins
Unless you're running a game in which nearly every combat features someone getting the drop on someone else, the advantage on initiative rolls has a far bigger impact
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
ok I was reading the rules correctly, is a little too much for me, I like my sneak attacks and surprise ambushes as a story element. Will ask him to look for something else :)
You could always homebrew a nerfed version, maybe a weapon with charges that allows you to cast alarm and gift of alacrity
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Personally, I do not think it is broken - you are trading more powerful, more generalised effects for one which is of more limited utility.
That said, while the effect is perfectly fair, I think it is not particularly fun. There is a certain joy in wandering through a dungeon, forest, or other wild place and never quite knowing if something is going to try to get the drop on you. Surprises add suspense to the game that just gets lost when a weapon of warning enters the picture.
Plus, as everyone knows, the moat delightful monster in D&D is the humble mimic, and denying those poor guys their ever-amusing surprise round just seems cruel.
To be fair, I feel most DM's run surprise far too often, without actually using the proper rules for it, so weapon of warning is strong in those games.
All things considered, with the nature of player passive perceptions, parties should VERY rarely get surprised unless they're simply being reckless while not leaving watches during rests and such. It's often very difficult for an entire enemy squad to pass a group stealth check against the insanely high passive perceptions of the party, especially when they've got stuff like Observant at their fingertips.
Realistically, what the weapon of warning does is pretty subjective to the DM. It says you can't be surprised and that the weapon wakes you up when combat starts. This can still lead to TRULY AWFUL starting positions in fights. They could wake up and have knives pressed to throats already, if everyone is sleeping. The only mechanical upside is that they aren't surprised for the first round.
ok I was reading the rules correctly, is a little too much for me, I like my sneak attacks and surprise ambushes as a story element. Will ask him to look for something else :)
You can of course still have that even weith a weapon of surprise. Literally the only thing happens is that the party can act the first turn of combat. There's nothing that prevents sneak attacks or narrative ambushes even with a weapon of warning. Nerfing a characters choice after you've given them permission to choose can be seen as a bit unfair.
ok I was reading the rules correctly, is a little too much for me, I like my sneak attacks and surprise ambushes as a story element. Will ask him to look for something else :)
You can of course still have that even weith a weapon of surprise. Literally the only thing happens is that the party can act the first turn of combat. There's nothing that prevents sneak attacks or narrative ambushes even with a weapon of warning. Nerfing a characters choice after you've given them permission to choose can be seen as a bit unfair.
layer is happy he asked if it was ok I said I would have a read and think after conversation he has gone for a flametongue handaxe.
ok I was reading the rules correctly, is a little too much for me, I like my sneak attacks and surprise ambushes as a story element.
Honestly, this sounds a lot like a player just asking for a weapon that is relevant to the campaign. If I were an adventurer that got jumped all the time, I'd seek out a way to avoid that too.
And this weapon does not change ambushes as a story element at all. It just changes the relative danger of the ambush. And you could just up the challenge fo the encounter to compensate while your player feels like a hero for avoiding the surprised condition. Sounds like a win-win to me.
ok I was reading the rules correctly, is a little too much for me, I like my sneak attacks and surprise ambushes as a story element. Will ask him to look for something else :)
just push the start of the ambush out to 35 feet, problem solved and everyone is happy :)
just push the start of the ambush out to 35 feet, problem solved and everyone is happy :)
It's dependent on the party being within 30', not the enemy. However, if you use a 40' deep pit trap to separate the weapon wielder from the rest of the party, you can ambush the rest of the party while the weapon wielder ... is not ambushed, but is at the bottom of a 40' pit.
just push the start of the ambush out to 35 feet, problem solved and everyone is happy :)
It's dependent on the party being within 30', not the enemy. However, if you use a 40' deep pit trap to separate the weapon wielder from the rest of the party, you can ambush the rest of the party while the weapon wielder ... is not ambushed, but is at the bottom of a 40' pit.
There's nothing about the weapon of warning that prevents the party from being ambushed. Literally all it does giving advantage on initiative rolls and the wielder and their friends aren't affected by the mechanical condition "surprised".
There's nothing about the weapon of warning that prevents the party from being ambushed. Literally all it does giving advantage on initiative rolls and the wielder and their friends aren't affected by the mechanical condition "surprised".
There's nothing about the weapon of warning that prevents the party from being ambushed. Literally all it does giving advantage on initiative rolls and the wielder and their friends aren't affected by the mechanical condition "surprised".
It's not an ambush if it isn't a surprise.
What on earth makes you believe that?
Of course it narratively is an ambush. It's just one where the ambushed aren't suffering from the mechanical condition of being "Surprised". Which isn't any different from if, for example, they all have a passive perception higher than the Stealth roll of the hidden ambushers.
There's nothing about the weapon of warning that prevents the party from being ambushed. Literally all it does giving advantage on initiative rolls and the wielder and their friends aren't affected by the mechanical condition "surprised".
It's not an ambush if it isn't a surprise.
What on earth makes you believe that?
Of course it narratively is an ambush. It's just one where the ambushed aren't suffering from the mechanical condition of being "Surprised". Which isn't any different from if, for example, they all have a passive perception higher than the Stealth roll of the hidden ambushers.
I think it is readily apparent from Pantagruel666’s post and a basic understanding of colloquial speech that they were trying to say “It’s not a successful ambush if it isn’t a surprise, and guaranteed unsuccessful ambushes are not fun.”
Which I fully agree with. Ambushes are fun mechanics - as a player, I like that they add a sense of danger and excitement to the world; as a DM, I like that they keep players on their toes and add a touch of suspense to certain situations. A weapon of warning takes that ability and enjoyment away from the DM and the players.
I will also note that your example of passive perception is a false equivalency. A weapon of warning is near-absolute, unless you split the party - it simply prevents the ambush’s success. Passive perception is not absolute - the enemy or enemies can beat it, which means there still is a chance for the ambush to be successful, fulfilling the entertainment goal. Passive perception is not even that hard to beat - an enemy that lies in wait is likely going to have a decent stealth check, and there are tools like Pace without Trace to mitigate low-stealth enemy rolls.
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So player had a character die, and as per my standard approach the new character they have created I have let them look through and think of some magic items they would like (dead character had 2 magic items neither will be useful to the new character). They have asked about a weapon of warning but reading it it seems a little powerful, am I reading the rules right in that it will call out any ambush or surprise attack, or is it just for if the character is sleeping?
It is a pretty powerful item, no doubt about that.
It also requires an attunement slot.
But yes, it will call out ambush and surprise attacks, so you just roll normal for initiative.
Due note though, that just because your character rolls for initiative, it doesn't mean that he knows what is going on.
You could easily call a roll for initiative, then when the bad guy see's that the PC's are alert, just choose to do nothing. When the PC's look around they see nothing, because the weapon doesn't tell WHY the roll was initiated.
And so, all the bad guys could hold their action, till the last guy in their group is ready, and then unleash hell on the PC's and gain some kind of surprise.
Just don't do that too often, it would just be mean :)
Weapon of Warning
You and anyone within 30 feet of you can't be surprised at all, awake or asleep, unless incapacitated. I wouldn't say it was game breaking but it is a powerful ability, to completely deny an enemy a surprise round.
DM - Storm King's Thunder
DM - Torosevia (WIP homebrew world)
Kelytha Meliamne - Matti Silverstorm - Silver - Star-Setting-In-The-East - Tor Baltos
Yeah, "can't be surprised" just means there's no 'surprise round' for anyone within 30 feet of you after combat begins
Unless you're running a game in which nearly every combat features someone getting the drop on someone else, the advantage on initiative rolls has a far bigger impact
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
ok I was reading the rules correctly, is a little too much for me, I like my sneak attacks and surprise ambushes as a story element. Will ask him to look for something else :)
You could always homebrew a nerfed version, maybe a weapon with charges that allows you to cast alarm and gift of alacrity
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Personally, I do not think it is broken - you are trading more powerful, more generalised effects for one which is of more limited utility.
That said, while the effect is perfectly fair, I think it is not particularly fun. There is a certain joy in wandering through a dungeon, forest, or other wild place and never quite knowing if something is going to try to get the drop on you. Surprises add suspense to the game that just gets lost when a weapon of warning enters the picture.
Plus, as everyone knows, the moat delightful monster in D&D is the humble mimic, and denying those poor guys their ever-amusing surprise round just seems cruel.
To be fair, I feel most DM's run surprise far too often, without actually using the proper rules for it, so weapon of warning is strong in those games.
All things considered, with the nature of player passive perceptions, parties should VERY rarely get surprised unless they're simply being reckless while not leaving watches during rests and such. It's often very difficult for an entire enemy squad to pass a group stealth check against the insanely high passive perceptions of the party, especially when they've got stuff like Observant at their fingertips.
Realistically, what the weapon of warning does is pretty subjective to the DM. It says you can't be surprised and that the weapon wakes you up when combat starts. This can still lead to TRULY AWFUL starting positions in fights. They could wake up and have knives pressed to throats already, if everyone is sleeping. The only mechanical upside is that they aren't surprised for the first round.
You can of course still have that even weith a weapon of surprise. Literally the only thing happens is that the party can act the first turn of combat. There's nothing that prevents sneak attacks or narrative ambushes even with a weapon of warning. Nerfing a characters choice after you've given them permission to choose can be seen as a bit unfair.
layer is happy he asked if it was ok I said I would have a read and think after conversation he has gone for a flametongue handaxe.
Depends on how you define danger.
No, not really. The mechanical effects of a Weapon of Warning is quite clearly defined.
Honestly, this sounds a lot like a player just asking for a weapon that is relevant to the campaign. If I were an adventurer that got jumped all the time, I'd seek out a way to avoid that too.
And this weapon does not change ambushes as a story element at all. It just changes the relative danger of the ambush. And you could just up the challenge fo the encounter to compensate while your player feels like a hero for avoiding the surprised condition. Sounds like a win-win to me.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
just push the start of the ambush out to 35 feet, problem solved and everyone is happy :)
It's dependent on the party being within 30', not the enemy. However, if you use a 40' deep pit trap to separate the weapon wielder from the rest of the party, you can ambush the rest of the party while the weapon wielder ... is not ambushed, but is at the bottom of a 40' pit.
sorry, you're completely correct, I mis-remembered the effect
There's nothing about the weapon of warning that prevents the party from being ambushed. Literally all it does giving advantage on initiative rolls and the wielder and their friends aren't affected by the mechanical condition "surprised".
It's not an ambush if it isn't a surprise.
What on earth makes you believe that?
Of course it narratively is an ambush. It's just one where the ambushed aren't suffering from the mechanical condition of being "Surprised". Which isn't any different from if, for example, they all have a passive perception higher than the Stealth roll of the hidden ambushers.
I think it is readily apparent from Pantagruel666’s post and a basic understanding of colloquial speech that they were trying to say “It’s not a successful ambush if it isn’t a surprise, and guaranteed unsuccessful ambushes are not fun.”
Which I fully agree with. Ambushes are fun mechanics - as a player, I like that they add a sense of danger and excitement to the world; as a DM, I like that they keep players on their toes and add a touch of suspense to certain situations. A weapon of warning takes that ability and enjoyment away from the DM and the players.
I will also note that your example of passive perception is a false equivalency. A weapon of warning is near-absolute, unless you split the party - it simply prevents the ambush’s success. Passive perception is not absolute - the enemy or enemies can beat it, which means there still is a chance for the ambush to be successful, fulfilling the entertainment goal. Passive perception is not even that hard to beat - an enemy that lies in wait is likely going to have a decent stealth check, and there are tools like Pace without Trace to mitigate low-stealth enemy rolls.