Hello everyone. In kind of a pickle. I have a player who likes sailing and merchant stuff. She LOVES boats, I want to make her little trade dreams come true. I want her to be able to build merchant trade routes and things. I seeded this with letting her acquire a couple contracts with different NPCs.
I thought “okay. I’ll surely be able to figure out what to do with these,” forgetting that I hold the campaign together by sheer force of will and giving them emotional clown show experiences rather than anything having to do with the barest hint of math or gaming mechanics.
I figure someone must have done something like this before, even put out something on it (I’ll happily buy whatever!). Normally I can find whatever homebrew stuff easily, but that was always stuff like “a dungeon” or “some monsters”, not whatever this is. Can anyone recommend mechanics even similar to any of this? The group is very forgiving and will let me recon whatever necessary (and it’s been a long, long time since we’ve had a session so they will not remember anyway).
It sounds like roleplay. Your party needs to acquire a ship (prices, crew requirements, etc. in the DMG). Then they need to meet contacts for people wanting to ship their goods, and willing to pay for it. That will be roleplay, and probably Charisma checks to negotiate what the party's charging to ship the goods. Then there's picking up the goods and actually sailing them to their destination, which could be complicated by pirates, sea monsters, storms, etc. The same way traveling by land includes hardships. Then when they reach their destination, they have to safely deliver the goods to the buyer. There's more oportunity to deal with thieves, local tax officers, or even the law if the party was misled about what they're shipping.
The game's really light on rules about sailing ships, even in Ghosts of Saltmarsh. You could have the crew pick from different positions on the ship, and have them describe what they're doing to help resolve a situation before having them make an appropriate skill check to see if they're able to successfully improve their situation. For example, in a bad storm or outrunning pirate, someone might be commanding the sailors working the sails, or be one of them, and Commanding could be argued to be Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma depending on how they're going about it. Actually working the sails to catch more wind to sail faster might be a Strength or Dexterity check. You could treat this as a group challenge, where each player-character can be doing their own thing on the ship to help accomplish the goal, and you're keeping track of the total successes and failures, and if the successes meet the pre-determined threshold before the failures, they succeed.
Weirdly, I'd use something more similar to the survival hex crawl (maybe go a little lighter. They can be harsh), along with some tables for different things that are available at each port and different prices. Coffee being 5gp a crate in one port, and 10gp at another and 7gp at a third.
Do this with 8-10 commodities. Allow for charisma checks/persuasion to give a +5,+10,+15% increase or decrease in trade prices depending on how they succeed or fail.
Do that with a bunch of places, have the prices change and fluctuate (use dice to randomize), and set up some rumors of other islands that might have rare stuff or hidden treasures so you can add in a bit of variation.
Sea battles should be basically fighting at range (meaning you're stuck on an 'island' or in the air if you can fly).
The survival hex crawl aspect is mostly so you can have them figure out direction to head in, with a die roll to see if there's encounter, if you actually stay on course, if the seas inhibit travel so you can't move as far as you want or if the weather is fair and you get extra movement. Have different color hex tiles which can represent areas of unusual tides or low winds that can have the effects of the above (things that may slow or redirect on the ship as well as favorable). Some tiles should be known pirate hangouts and places to avoid. Tiles that represent currents should have arrows (1-3) on them showing which direction they pull in. For every 3 hexes of movement they move the average of the number of arrows on the hexes in that direction rounded. (Two empty hexes and 1 arrow would mean 0 extra push, 2 with 3 arrows and 1 hex with 1 would be pulling 2 hexes in a direction)
You want a good variation on stuff that can happen. Pirates, stored goods getting contaminated and having to be tossed overboard, storms damaging the ship, think of all the really interesting things that could both benefit or hinder you on the seas and build a random percentage table. Don't be afraid to have about 1/2 of the percentages result in nothing much happen, but you still want half of the percentages to have something happen. And spread it out too. For example, 1-2 results in capsizing the ship, 3-5 is nothing, 6 or 7 are good winds, add an extra 2 hexes to movement), 8-9 is pirates, 10-13 is just a fine day, 14-16 is rats have infested the supplies, 17-20 is light rain in the morning and the crew catch fish for to supplement dinner... Etc. Have them roll that then move the hex spaces they want to go
Make sure to run something like rations or just call it "general ship supplies" which will force them to consider how far trips between islands/ports can be, and run the ship's cargo.space similar to encumbrance rules. There's some that change the encumbrance into squares on a page, and you could do that, letting them figure out what to do with the space on their ship.
These are just suggestions off the top of my head, so if it's not cohesive, I'm sorry. I think you can be creative with existing optional rules and make it work.
EDIT: I should also point out a lot of these ideas are based on vague memories of "outdoor survival", a hex game that D&D is loosely based on, and the old T98 graphing calc game Drug Wars that was popular for almost everyone who used a graphing calculator in high school.
I kinda want to do the tables and formalized "rules" for this though, as "outdoor survival" was incredibly brutal, and the mercantile game was too simplistic... Though you could also add D&D scenarios like getting robbed or some npc's pulling a heist on YOU and you have to get your stuff back.
I have a setting that's a bunch of islands, so there's a lot that this could creatively apply.
This is an excellent opportunity to have them learn more about the world.
First they will need a cartographer with a map they can use to plan their route. This may be common in your world, or it may be rarer, necessitating a quest to a library or travellers guild.
Then they can plan the route. Make sure you load the easiest looking routes with hazards, so that they learn over time where is safe, where isn't, and get some questin' done in scouting the route. They might find sea monsters, reefs, magical sections of ocean, thick fog full of rocks and wrecks, sirens, that sort of thing.
Then try to link some hazards with your main plot - EG, if there is a BBEG forming an army, they might find a flotilla of ships who are allying with them. If there is a dragon on the coast, have an area devoid of monsters - except the dragon. If they killed a dragon, then have other monsters battling for the territory. That sort of thing!
I think I want to actually design this myself based on my suggestions for a much much future game....
near as I can tell, there isn’t a way. Still a forum noob, tho.
I am thinking of tossing some rough mechanics here too, lol, since this is on my dev list.
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Running a piping company ( what the PC is trying to do) is, as others have pointe ut, a campaign in and of itself. There are actually some rules for things like travel times and sailing speeds as well as random encounters and running a successful business in the DMG as well as several other books - mostly in the “down time” sections. You might also want to get Aquisitions Inc.. While it is set up to be somewhat comedic it has rules for running a business and upgrading headquarters, transport devices etc as well as hiring/acquiring henchmen followers etc. The problem with too many rules is just that - too many rules ( to keep track of). So K.I.S.S. It sounds like she has stuff to deliver and so places and people to deliver it to. Next she needs to acquire a ship, a crew, sailing supplies ( including reserves for handling the problems that come up), her party ( to help defend the ship and goods), and probably some research of threats and weather to expect on the trip. If she/the party have any spare cash left after that they might buy their own goods to take and sell for profit. The major problem here is that as it stands the economy of the game is “ adventurers buy high and sell low ( to strip excess cash from adventuring) “ so your going to have to do some work to either rework the economics or focus their efforts mostly on “found” stuff like magic items, artwork etc found on adventures, or the armor and weapons taken from attackers they have defeated. These can still be profitable since the GP “buy” price was 0. Once they have everything ready then the actual adventure is sailing there with storms, monster attacks and pirate attacks to deal with. Then dealing with harbor authorities etc at the delivery port (the Baldure’s Gate free gazetteer has some stuff on this scattered thru it). Done right it ca turn into a major thing for the party ( or it could end in a TPK).
I would have to do a lot more research, myself, because I would need to know the rough equivalent in terms of time period (there are differences between the Rome era of 200 BCE, the Norman period of 1100 CE, the Florentine-Venetian trade war era, and then cultural stuff) as well as the degree of proximity to "real world" analogues.
Plus, I know jack about ships, lol.
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An interesting reading resource is Louis L’Lamour’s novel “ The walking Drum” it’s set in roughly 1100 AD Europe and includes both sea and land adventures, travel, and trade. It’s actually a great read for any DM looking to do any sort of travel based campaign with lots of different examples of things you can do.
They are the one that loves boats, so let them figure it out. They would probably enjoy it. All you need to do is fill in gaps about the world and determine the payoffs, which can be done after they develop the system.
All these pre-existing realistic rulesets are fine, but if you're doing this to please one person, the best way to do that is to just let them design it. They will focus on what's fun for them so you don't have to guess or assume.
Wooden Barrels were not at all common for transporting anything until around the year 1125 CE (AD). Prior to that, the standard way that things were shipped was always amphorae. A singe amphora might be tall as a man, but often would have strong handles, and yes, we are talking about giant clay pots. This is why potters were so important. People have found an amphora everywhere from the UK to India. While the shape varied outside of the wide sphere of Roman influence, the basic concept of a clay or terracotta pot that could be sealed with either a clay, cork, wood, or wax stopped and then tagged was the default globally (meaning, also outside the area of western influence) until the 1400's.
I find that a chuckle because it means a lot of the infamous treasure chests would actually have been treasure vessels, and now I have a whole new way of using and looking at mimics, lol.
There is a distinction between a Trader and a Merchant, historically (especially in Western cultural systems):
A Merchant was someone whose business produced something -- maker of boats, maker of candles, maker of cloth, maker of clothing. The Merchant themselves might never even know how to do it (they own the business) but typically they come from a history of people who at one time did. Merchants are trusted.
Traders were not trusted, and did not make things -- they were the ones who would buy from a merchant and then sell the stuff to a different merchant somewhere else -- and this is a key point, as well: Traders (and this is especially in regards to maritime stuff) were what we would call Business-to-business salesfolk. They did not deal directly to consumers, essentially, so they didn't sell to the average person. Traders had a lot of laws to deal with, and evidence has the first customs ports and weigh stations existing as far back as 6000 years ago (and we can estimate that some sites did that for several thousand years before that). Traders who lost cargo had to pay fines and fees, and were taxed higher than merchants were, and were generally trusted to tr and get away with something in every encounter.
Every major nation-equivalent had explicit bans on certain trade goods. Every Single One. China kept the secret of silk for 3,000 years, and the earliest silk had to be stolen because it was illegal to allow anyone but the imperial household to have it. It was a death sentence. The knowledge of and the product of making called Greek Fire was forbidden. Silk dyed purple (Tyrolian purple, specifically) was also a high crime to sell.
One of the most important things that was always blocked from being traded was coins. Because each nation-equivalent typically printed its own from a limited supply of metals and in very small quantities (apparently the typical foundry could produce only around 1000 coins a day, not counting discards and mis-strikes), and so if coins went to a different counttry, they would be taken in and melted and turned into that country's coin, reducing the literal wealth of the original country.
I kind of already knew that to a degree, since the ingot was the preferred form of exchange until the settled issues of europe beginning in the 600's and continuing through the 1400's. I just never realized the "their money becomes my money" and how it means the original country now has less to pay its soldiers and administrative class. No wonder economic warfare was so common (inflation is real!)...
One of the big issues with the D&D price tables is that they are notoriously inflated because Adventuring PCs are expected to be wealthy (really, that was a founding precept). This matters because of the "price of bread" rule, but that's a whole economics thing I do not want to deal with right now. However, the thing that does impact in terms of this thread is that EVERYTHING is a trade good, and Everything has value.
The most common things haled by the majority of traders were dishes, for example. You know, basic tableware. plates, bowls, cups, flatware. Textiles, raw and fashioned -- so not just wool and cotton and papyrus and linen and bolts of silk and such, but also blankets. The next most common goods were foodstuffs. The entire year's profit could be made on a shiload of a particular spice (black pepper, salt, in the 1500's nutmeg -- more wars have been started about spices than have been started about religion).
THe slow influx of new world foodstuffs and spices during the 1500's literally changed how almost every nation on earth makes their food in less than 300 years.
Bird feathers. Animal Furs. Ivory and worked bone.
The one place where a Trader could sell to the general public -- and it usually wasn't all of them or even most -- was in the huge bazaars or open air markets. That required a special permission from whoever the local Authority was. Historically that was the feudal lord of that area, and it was one of the perks of that particular granting (because remember that in a feudal system the Highest Authority (King) owns everything, and merely leases it out as a reward or as a way to administer it) because it also means accounting of what is sold and taxes on a set period or cycle (meaning you can't leave to your ship until you have paid your taxes, and you cannot come ashore without seeing the harbormaster, a different position of authority).
Every market has rules that are usually harder on Traders than Merchants (Merchants are local, traders are not), and most markets have "sections" (sometimes official, sometimes not) that we would call "quarters" for either a type of good or/and a type of people.
Regardless of the kinds of ships used, the big thing is "not to sail out of sight of land". in terms of real world stuff, this was generally taken to mean not beyond 50 land miles of a shore. That has a real world impact (it influenced the establishment of maritime boundaries). In nautical miles, that's 44 nautical miles. Oddly enough (to me, and this is correlation, not equivalence), it is of interest that the continental shelf averages about 45 miles out from low tide for all major landmasses, lol. Beyond the shelf, the waters gets deep, and below 3200 feet or so, seeing without help is really really hard, lol.
Most trade in the northern hemisphere happened between April and October. Storms the rest of the year were less predictable, more dangerous, and made even reliable, known trade routes very dangerous. It is flipped in the southern hemisphere -- trade did not happen between May and September, there.
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I was running a character like this, a Bard, and he wanted to build a business to act as a front for his spying activities. The DM started out OK with it, but then grew tired of it.
He went looking for a community that made a thing of great beauty, utility and quality. He purchased a cart load of the things and took them to another community and sought to sell them at a profit. When he made a profit, he asked what sort of thing did they make and sell. Then he went and tried to sell what was left of thing1 and some of thing2 to the next community. By buying a thing of quality with an abundant supply, he was able to purchase the thing at 30% under the normal value. When he found a place that really appreciated what he sold, he sold at 30% above normal value. He basically doubled his money on each trip.
He made a circuit of places to buy and sell things for good profit. He made friends and partners in the communities that he sold to and they gave him money, a deal on a local thing & information about what was going on in the area. The PC had to RP meeting people and attempting to find out what was the local thing. Then using his persuasion skill he attempted to negotiate a contract to buy a bunch of the thing. And he found other friends that he would take care of such as the stable worker where he brought his horse when he came to visit. He would send a stable boy off to buy four good apples. The boy would come back with the apples and the PC would select a good one for himself. Then he gave one to the stable hand. Then he let the stable boy pick one for himself and the PC gave the last apple to his horse. This allowed him to make friends and get information.
You could do the same thing. Have the PC arrive and ask around, making this a skill check against intelligence and/or wisdom. Then for negotiations it could become a skill check for persuasion. Then the PC can check for information, which might be the DM rolling a d20 or a d100. If the PC is good a RP making friends, maybe they get two rolls for information.
I was a little vague on what I purchased. So it might be a cart load of wooden carvings, or a cart load of fine wooden flatwear. He purchased ale, stout, porter, lager, mead and beer, took it somewhere else and sold it. He purchased spices and sold them. He purchased fresh fruit and sold that. He purchased Dwarven tools and sold them in a Dwarven mountain village. A cart load might cost him 5-25 gp. He would usually double his money and then pay his expenses. He had to feed his mule and his horse, and the horses of his companions that joined him on the journey. Then he had to pay his guards and his employee. In the end he didn't make much, but he made enough to stay in positive cash flow. He saved enough to get a second cart and a second mule. Eventually he saved enough for a third.
Everyone thought he was just a travelling merchant. But in reality he was an adventurer piecing together information to lead him to a goal. He promoted his best worker to run his caravan, and then he went on a side adventure with his party using the information he had. He returned and resumed his role in the caravan. When he got enough money, he purchased a building to act as a warehouse and storefront. He began operating his caravans out-and-back to that town.
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That is very cool. It absolutely helps me -- and that matters since there is some impact on my forthcoming campaign.
I have an inland sea the size of the US, and around it lie the Seven Cities. Trade is absolutely maritime in nature, lol.
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Is the whole party to be on the ship? Or is this just for one character and their side business?
If it’s just for the one character, I would not get too deep into it. It could be as simple as, they own a boat. Once a month or so, they get some gold to reflect their profits. And once in a while, there’s problems with pirates or a kraken or something, so the party goes and deals with that.
The reason not to do a lot, primarily, is because what are the rest of the players to do while you resolve a shipping mini game with just one? Secondly, D&D as written doesn’t work as an economics simulation. A longsword costs 15gp no matter where you buy it. Ditto a pound of flour or a warhorse. In order for something like this to work, you really need to develop a global economic system which will help govern which trade routes would be profitable. And that would include things like changing prices — that longsword is cheaper near the iron mines, but the further you go, the more expensive it gets, for example. Now, if that’s fun for you, have it. It could be really cool. But if you are barely holding the campaign together through “force of will” you might not want to add that to your plate.
So, yeah, I’m voting for, just abstract it and have it throw off some gold or other side benefits. And if the player wants to spend time naming crew members and detailing how much corn they can fit in their cargo hold, bearing in mind the seasonal nature of produce, or decide oranges are more profitable this month, let them go crazy.
The reason not to do a lot, primarily, is because what are the rest of the players to do while you resolve a shipping mini game with just one? Secondly, D&D as written doesn’t work as an economics simulation. A longsword costs 15gp no matter where you buy it. Ditto a pound of flour or a warhorse. In order for something like this to work, you really need to develop a global economic system which will help govern which trade routes would be profitable. And that would include things like changing prices — that longsword is cheaper near the iron mines, but the further you go, the more expensive it gets, for example. Now, if that’s fun for you, have it. It could be really cool. But if you are barely holding the campaign together through “force of will” you might not want to add that to your plate.
The things you would trade generally aren't in the books.
I suggest having it available do it in some small part as a side quest that will lead to a "random encounter" with pirates which can get you out of it and back into the game whenever you need.
As long as you keep the mechanics simple and tight, you shouldn't have a horrible time doing it for a session or two. (Plus you can do it as a way to travel and part of a side business).
Giving a shout out every now and then to a player isn't a bad thing, provided you keep a handle on it.
As always with trade what you are looking for are things that are common and ( relatively) cheap where you are now, but are rare and more valuable where you are going. The other thing you want is stuff with a reputation for quality that stretches beyond the emediate area. ( Irish lace, Damascus steel, etc.) then you can probably make a profit by moving them from here to there and selling at a price there that covers the expenses of buying the items and moving them. I would make an exception to Dorsay’s Merchants and Traders - really 3 groups: Tradesmen - these are the folks that actually produce the items, they are generally trusted as their reputation is based on the quality of their workmanship. Merchants - these folks buy and sell in bulk, they are the origin of the term grocer as they dealt not in individual items but by the gross (12x12=144). But they stayed in the location so again fairly trusted because they relied on repeat business. Traders - these are the folks that move goods from place to place. Like the merchants they mostly deal in grosses of things. The only time they don’t is when it’s singular exception items ( think magic items or items from a world renowned craftsman (like Stradivarius or Rodan) or, when it’s stuff like armor and weapons taken from those that attacked them and lost. In my campaign the long distance runs typically carry things like elven artwork, magic, Dwarven armor and weapons, musical instruments from Waterdeep’s Bard College, furs from the north on southern trips, calishite goods headed north or east, etc.
Yeah, Tradesfolk are a part of it -- I was mostly taking note of the distinction between a Merchant (who was local) and a Trader (who traveled) because it stood out in comparison to the "default" system in D&D with "Merchant" being a fairly broad catch all.
I will note that under the system, Merchants were the local powers (it was Merchants who established Banks, after all). Mostly it was to note that by and large Traders dealt with Merchants -- which is made clear by your notes, in terms of the gross aspect.
You and Bob_the_Fish have this down, so I am learning ;). I might know the Price of Bread rule and macrosystems, but this is outside of my personal expertise, so it is opening my eyes to things that I have been hesitant to address in my new setting.
For a translation example: I can see that this is how we got Futures (like Pork Belly and Gold) and run through that, but stuff like the tonnage and grossage aspects, the closest I have come is determining that all trade uses a common standard carriage format (think shipping containers). The rest is kinda outside my ability to conceive as I have no touchstone for it..
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Hello everyone. In kind of a pickle. I have a player who likes sailing and merchant stuff. She LOVES boats, I want to make her little trade dreams come true. I want her to be able to build merchant trade routes and things. I seeded this with letting her acquire a couple contracts with different NPCs.
I thought “okay. I’ll surely be able to figure out what to do with these,” forgetting that I hold the campaign together by sheer force of will and giving them emotional clown show experiences rather than anything having to do with the barest hint of math or gaming mechanics.
I figure someone must have done something like this before, even put out something on it (I’ll happily buy whatever!). Normally I can find whatever homebrew stuff easily, but that was always stuff like “a dungeon” or “some monsters”, not whatever this is. Can anyone recommend mechanics even similar to any of this? The group is very forgiving and will let me recon whatever necessary (and it’s been a long, long time since we’ve had a session so they will not remember anyway).
Any help is appreciated.
It sounds like roleplay. Your party needs to acquire a ship (prices, crew requirements, etc. in the DMG). Then they need to meet contacts for people wanting to ship their goods, and willing to pay for it. That will be roleplay, and probably Charisma checks to negotiate what the party's charging to ship the goods. Then there's picking up the goods and actually sailing them to their destination, which could be complicated by pirates, sea monsters, storms, etc. The same way traveling by land includes hardships. Then when they reach their destination, they have to safely deliver the goods to the buyer. There's more oportunity to deal with thieves, local tax officers, or even the law if the party was misled about what they're shipping.
The game's really light on rules about sailing ships, even in Ghosts of Saltmarsh. You could have the crew pick from different positions on the ship, and have them describe what they're doing to help resolve a situation before having them make an appropriate skill check to see if they're able to successfully improve their situation. For example, in a bad storm or outrunning pirate, someone might be commanding the sailors working the sails, or be one of them, and Commanding could be argued to be Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma depending on how they're going about it. Actually working the sails to catch more wind to sail faster might be a Strength or Dexterity check. You could treat this as a group challenge, where each player-character can be doing their own thing on the ship to help accomplish the goal, and you're keeping track of the total successes and failures, and if the successes meet the pre-determined threshold before the failures, they succeed.
Weirdly, I'd use something more similar to the survival hex crawl (maybe go a little lighter. They can be harsh), along with some tables for different things that are available at each port and different prices. Coffee being 5gp a crate in one port, and 10gp at another and 7gp at a third.
Do this with 8-10 commodities. Allow for charisma checks/persuasion to give a +5,+10,+15% increase or decrease in trade prices depending on how they succeed or fail.
Do that with a bunch of places, have the prices change and fluctuate (use dice to randomize), and set up some rumors of other islands that might have rare stuff or hidden treasures so you can add in a bit of variation.
Sea battles should be basically fighting at range (meaning you're stuck on an 'island' or in the air if you can fly).
The survival hex crawl aspect is mostly so you can have them figure out direction to head in, with a die roll to see if there's encounter, if you actually stay on course, if the seas inhibit travel so you can't move as far as you want or if the weather is fair and you get extra movement. Have different color hex tiles which can represent areas of unusual tides or low winds that can have the effects of the above (things that may slow or redirect on the ship as well as favorable). Some tiles should be known pirate hangouts and places to avoid. Tiles that represent currents should have arrows (1-3) on them showing which direction they pull in. For every 3 hexes of movement they move the average of the number of arrows on the hexes in that direction rounded. (Two empty hexes and 1 arrow would mean 0 extra push, 2 with 3 arrows and 1 hex with 1 would be pulling 2 hexes in a direction)
You want a good variation on stuff that can happen. Pirates, stored goods getting contaminated and having to be tossed overboard, storms damaging the ship, think of all the really interesting things that could both benefit or hinder you on the seas and build a random percentage table. Don't be afraid to have about 1/2 of the percentages result in nothing much happen, but you still want half of the percentages to have something happen. And spread it out too. For example, 1-2 results in capsizing the ship, 3-5 is nothing, 6 or 7 are good winds, add an extra 2 hexes to movement), 8-9 is pirates, 10-13 is just a fine day, 14-16 is rats have infested the supplies, 17-20 is light rain in the morning and the crew catch fish for to supplement dinner... Etc. Have them roll that then move the hex spaces they want to go
Make sure to run something like rations or just call it "general ship supplies" which will force them to consider how far trips between islands/ports can be, and run the ship's cargo.space similar to encumbrance rules. There's some that change the encumbrance into squares on a page, and you could do that, letting them figure out what to do with the space on their ship.
These are just suggestions off the top of my head, so if it's not cohesive, I'm sorry. I think you can be creative with existing optional rules and make it work.
EDIT: I should also point out a lot of these ideas are based on vague memories of "outdoor survival", a hex game that D&D is loosely based on, and the old T98 graphing calc game Drug Wars that was popular for almost everyone who used a graphing calculator in high school.
I kinda want to do the tables and formalized "rules" for this though, as "outdoor survival" was incredibly brutal, and the mercantile game was too simplistic... Though you could also add D&D scenarios like getting robbed or some npc's pulling a heist on YOU and you have to get your stuff back.
I have a setting that's a bunch of islands, so there's a lot that this could creatively apply.
Also, does anyone know how to mark this topic?
I think I want to actually design this myself based on my suggestions for a much much future game....
This is an excellent opportunity to have them learn more about the world.
First they will need a cartographer with a map they can use to plan their route. This may be common in your world, or it may be rarer, necessitating a quest to a library or travellers guild.
Then they can plan the route. Make sure you load the easiest looking routes with hazards, so that they learn over time where is safe, where isn't, and get some questin' done in scouting the route. They might find sea monsters, reefs, magical sections of ocean, thick fog full of rocks and wrecks, sirens, that sort of thing.
Then try to link some hazards with your main plot - EG, if there is a BBEG forming an army, they might find a flotilla of ships who are allying with them. If there is a dragon on the coast, have an area devoid of monsters - except the dragon. If they killed a dragon, then have other monsters battling for the territory. That sort of thing!
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https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dBW9REE_fysaVIc4CxfWcugtpNiFD7RiPq18tkW_NRM/edit?usp=sharing
Hopefully this works.
This is some of the "rules" to accompany a hex map as described that I drafted up today.
near as I can tell, there isn’t a way. Still a forum noob, tho.
I am thinking of tossing some rough mechanics here too, lol, since this is on my dev list.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
Running a piping company ( what the PC is trying to do) is, as others have pointe ut, a campaign in and of itself. There are actually some rules for things like travel times and sailing speeds as well as random encounters and running a successful business in the DMG as well as several other books - mostly in the “down time” sections. You might also want to get Aquisitions Inc.. While it is set up to be somewhat comedic it has rules for running a business and upgrading headquarters, transport devices etc as well as hiring/acquiring henchmen followers etc. The problem with too many rules is just that - too many rules ( to keep track of). So K.I.S.S. It sounds like she has stuff to deliver and so places and people to deliver it to. Next she needs to acquire a ship, a crew, sailing supplies ( including reserves for handling the problems that come up), her party ( to help defend the ship and goods), and probably some research of threats and weather to expect on the trip. If she/the party have any spare cash left after that they might buy their own goods to take and sell for profit. The major problem here is that as it stands the economy of the game is “ adventurers buy high and sell low ( to strip excess cash from adventuring) “ so your going to have to do some work to either rework the economics or focus their efforts mostly on “found” stuff like magic items, artwork etc found on adventures, or the armor and weapons taken from attackers they have defeated. These can still be profitable since the GP “buy” price was 0. Once they have everything ready then the actual adventure is sailing there with storms, monster attacks and pirate attacks to deal with. Then dealing with harbor authorities etc at the delivery port (the Baldure’s Gate free gazetteer has some stuff on this scattered thru it). Done right it ca turn into a major thing for the party ( or it could end in a TPK).
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
So, doing some rough searching:
https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-MVmoDESXqe7_0A9ydHt also: https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5bd88db093a6320f071b1a50/t/604eec4fccf08c42a6ded56e/1615785040601/MerchantTrading_v1.pdf
I don't particularly like the way it is weighted, but the underlying principles seem sound enough.
here's this, also relying on a similar "modern" understanding of capitalist trade; https://www.enworld.org/threads/merchants-and-marketplaces-trading-business-rules-for-d-d-4e.252007/
https://www.enworld.org/threads/simple-but-not-too-simple-business-rules.682996/
https://www.enworld.org/threads/world-building-commerce-and-gold.698360/ -- there's a couple useful items in there
I would have to do a lot more research, myself, because I would need to know the rough equivalent in terms of time period (there are differences between the Rome era of 200 BCE, the Norman period of 1100 CE, the Florentine-Venetian trade war era, and then cultural stuff) as well as the degree of proximity to "real world" analogues.
Plus, I know jack about ships, lol.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
An interesting reading resource is Louis L’Lamour’s novel “ The walking Drum” it’s set in roughly 1100 AD Europe and includes both sea and land adventures, travel, and trade. It’s actually a great read for any DM looking to do any sort of travel based campaign with lots of different examples of things you can do.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
They are the one that loves boats, so let them figure it out. They would probably enjoy it. All you need to do is fill in gaps about the world and determine the payoffs, which can be done after they develop the system.
All these pre-existing realistic rulesets are fine, but if you're doing this to please one person, the best way to do that is to just let them design it. They will focus on what's fun for them so you don't have to guess or assume.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Random bits of trivia from my research:
Wooden Barrels were not at all common for transporting anything until around the year 1125 CE (AD). Prior to that, the standard way that things were shipped was always amphorae. A singe amphora might be tall as a man, but often would have strong handles, and yes, we are talking about giant clay pots. This is why potters were so important. People have found an amphora everywhere from the UK to India. While the shape varied outside of the wide sphere of Roman influence, the basic concept of a clay or terracotta pot that could be sealed with either a clay, cork, wood, or wax stopped and then tagged was the default globally (meaning, also outside the area of western influence) until the 1400's.
I find that a chuckle because it means a lot of the infamous treasure chests would actually have been treasure vessels, and now I have a whole new way of using and looking at mimics, lol.
There is a distinction between a Trader and a Merchant, historically (especially in Western cultural systems):
A Merchant was someone whose business produced something -- maker of boats, maker of candles, maker of cloth, maker of clothing. The Merchant themselves might never even know how to do it (they own the business) but typically they come from a history of people who at one time did. Merchants are trusted.
Traders were not trusted, and did not make things -- they were the ones who would buy from a merchant and then sell the stuff to a different merchant somewhere else -- and this is a key point, as well: Traders (and this is especially in regards to maritime stuff) were what we would call Business-to-business salesfolk. They did not deal directly to consumers, essentially, so they didn't sell to the average person. Traders had a lot of laws to deal with, and evidence has the first customs ports and weigh stations existing as far back as 6000 years ago (and we can estimate that some sites did that for several thousand years before that). Traders who lost cargo had to pay fines and fees, and were taxed higher than merchants were, and were generally trusted to tr and get away with something in every encounter.
Every major nation-equivalent had explicit bans on certain trade goods. Every Single One. China kept the secret of silk for 3,000 years, and the earliest silk had to be stolen because it was illegal to allow anyone but the imperial household to have it. It was a death sentence. The knowledge of and the product of making called Greek Fire was forbidden. Silk dyed purple (Tyrolian purple, specifically) was also a high crime to sell.
One of the most important things that was always blocked from being traded was coins. Because each nation-equivalent typically printed its own from a limited supply of metals and in very small quantities (apparently the typical foundry could produce only around 1000 coins a day, not counting discards and mis-strikes), and so if coins went to a different counttry, they would be taken in and melted and turned into that country's coin, reducing the literal wealth of the original country.
I kind of already knew that to a degree, since the ingot was the preferred form of exchange until the settled issues of europe beginning in the 600's and continuing through the 1400's. I just never realized the "their money becomes my money" and how it means the original country now has less to pay its soldiers and administrative class. No wonder economic warfare was so common (inflation is real!)...
One of the big issues with the D&D price tables is that they are notoriously inflated because Adventuring PCs are expected to be wealthy (really, that was a founding precept). This matters because of the "price of bread" rule, but that's a whole economics thing I do not want to deal with right now. However, the thing that does impact in terms of this thread is that EVERYTHING is a trade good, and Everything has value.
The most common things haled by the majority of traders were dishes, for example. You know, basic tableware. plates, bowls, cups, flatware. Textiles, raw and fashioned -- so not just wool and cotton and papyrus and linen and bolts of silk and such, but also blankets. The next most common goods were foodstuffs. The entire year's profit could be made on a shiload of a particular spice (black pepper, salt, in the 1500's nutmeg -- more wars have been started about spices than have been started about religion).
THe slow influx of new world foodstuffs and spices during the 1500's literally changed how almost every nation on earth makes their food in less than 300 years.
Bird feathers. Animal Furs. Ivory and worked bone.
The one place where a Trader could sell to the general public -- and it usually wasn't all of them or even most -- was in the huge bazaars or open air markets. That required a special permission from whoever the local Authority was. Historically that was the feudal lord of that area, and it was one of the perks of that particular granting (because remember that in a feudal system the Highest Authority (King) owns everything, and merely leases it out as a reward or as a way to administer it) because it also means accounting of what is sold and taxes on a set period or cycle (meaning you can't leave to your ship until you have paid your taxes, and you cannot come ashore without seeing the harbormaster, a different position of authority).
Every market has rules that are usually harder on Traders than Merchants (Merchants are local, traders are not), and most markets have "sections" (sometimes official, sometimes not) that we would call "quarters" for either a type of good or/and a type of people.
Regardless of the kinds of ships used, the big thing is "not to sail out of sight of land". in terms of real world stuff, this was generally taken to mean not beyond 50 land miles of a shore. That has a real world impact (it influenced the establishment of maritime boundaries). In nautical miles, that's 44 nautical miles. Oddly enough (to me, and this is correlation, not equivalence), it is of interest that the continental shelf averages about 45 miles out from low tide for all major landmasses, lol. Beyond the shelf, the waters gets deep, and below 3200 feet or so, seeing without help is really really hard, lol.
Most trade in the northern hemisphere happened between April and October. Storms the rest of the year were less predictable, more dangerous, and made even reliable, known trade routes very dangerous. It is flipped in the southern hemisphere -- trade did not happen between May and September, there.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
I was running a character like this, a Bard, and he wanted to build a business to act as a front for his spying activities. The DM started out OK with it, but then grew tired of it.
He went looking for a community that made a thing of great beauty, utility and quality. He purchased a cart load of the things and took them to another community and sought to sell them at a profit. When he made a profit, he asked what sort of thing did they make and sell. Then he went and tried to sell what was left of thing1 and some of thing2 to the next community. By buying a thing of quality with an abundant supply, he was able to purchase the thing at 30% under the normal value. When he found a place that really appreciated what he sold, he sold at 30% above normal value. He basically doubled his money on each trip.
He made a circuit of places to buy and sell things for good profit. He made friends and partners in the communities that he sold to and they gave him money, a deal on a local thing & information about what was going on in the area. The PC had to RP meeting people and attempting to find out what was the local thing. Then using his persuasion skill he attempted to negotiate a contract to buy a bunch of the thing. And he found other friends that he would take care of such as the stable worker where he brought his horse when he came to visit. He would send a stable boy off to buy four good apples. The boy would come back with the apples and the PC would select a good one for himself. Then he gave one to the stable hand. Then he let the stable boy pick one for himself and the PC gave the last apple to his horse. This allowed him to make friends and get information.
You could do the same thing. Have the PC arrive and ask around, making this a skill check against intelligence and/or wisdom. Then for negotiations it could become a skill check for persuasion. Then the PC can check for information, which might be the DM rolling a d20 or a d100. If the PC is good a RP making friends, maybe they get two rolls for information.
I was a little vague on what I purchased. So it might be a cart load of wooden carvings, or a cart load of fine wooden flatwear. He purchased ale, stout, porter, lager, mead and beer, took it somewhere else and sold it. He purchased spices and sold them. He purchased fresh fruit and sold that. He purchased Dwarven tools and sold them in a Dwarven mountain village. A cart load might cost him 5-25 gp. He would usually double his money and then pay his expenses. He had to feed his mule and his horse, and the horses of his companions that joined him on the journey. Then he had to pay his guards and his employee. In the end he didn't make much, but he made enough to stay in positive cash flow. He saved enough to get a second cart and a second mule. Eventually he saved enough for a third.
Everyone thought he was just a travelling merchant. But in reality he was an adventurer piecing together information to lead him to a goal. He promoted his best worker to run his caravan, and then he went on a side adventure with his party using the information he had. He returned and resumed his role in the caravan. When he got enough money, he purchased a building to act as a warehouse and storefront. He began operating his caravans out-and-back to that town.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
Thank you for all of this everyone! Wow!!
To whomever sent the request for the document,I forgot to change my settings. It should be viewable for anyone with a link
That is very cool. It absolutely helps me -- and that matters since there is some impact on my forthcoming campaign.
I have an inland sea the size of the US, and around it lie the Seven Cities. Trade is absolutely maritime in nature, lol.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
Is the whole party to be on the ship? Or is this just for one character and their side business?
If it’s just for the one character, I would not get too deep into it. It could be as simple as, they own a boat. Once a month or so, they get some gold to reflect their profits. And once in a while, there’s problems with pirates or a kraken or something, so the party goes and deals with that.
The reason not to do a lot, primarily, is because what are the rest of the players to do while you resolve a shipping mini game with just one? Secondly, D&D as written doesn’t work as an economics simulation. A longsword costs 15gp no matter where you buy it. Ditto a pound of flour or a warhorse. In order for something like this to work, you really need to develop a global economic system which will help govern which trade routes would be profitable. And that would include things like changing prices — that longsword is cheaper near the iron mines, but the further you go, the more expensive it gets, for example. Now, if that’s fun for you, have it. It could be really cool. But if you are barely holding the campaign together through “force of will” you might not want to add that to your plate.
So, yeah, I’m voting for, just abstract it and have it throw off some gold or other side benefits. And if the player wants to spend time naming crew members and detailing how much corn they can fit in their cargo hold, bearing in mind the seasonal nature of produce, or decide oranges are more profitable this month, let them go crazy.
The things you would trade generally aren't in the books.
I suggest having it available do it in some small part as a side quest that will lead to a "random encounter" with pirates which can get you out of it and back into the game whenever you need.
As long as you keep the mechanics simple and tight, you shouldn't have a horrible time doing it for a session or two. (Plus you can do it as a way to travel and part of a side business).
Giving a shout out every now and then to a player isn't a bad thing, provided you keep a handle on it.
As always with trade what you are looking for are things that are common and ( relatively) cheap where you are now, but are rare and more valuable where you are going. The other thing you want is stuff with a reputation for quality that stretches beyond the emediate area. ( Irish lace, Damascus steel, etc.) then you can probably make a profit by moving them from here to there and selling at a price there that covers the expenses of buying the items and moving them.
I would make an exception to Dorsay’s Merchants and Traders - really 3 groups:
Tradesmen - these are the folks that actually produce the items, they are generally trusted as their reputation is based on the quality of their workmanship.
Merchants - these folks buy and sell in bulk, they are the origin of the term grocer as they dealt not in individual items but by the gross (12x12=144). But they stayed in the location so again fairly trusted because they relied on repeat business.
Traders - these are the folks that move goods from place to place. Like the merchants they mostly deal in grosses of things. The only time they don’t is when it’s singular exception items ( think magic items or items from a world renowned craftsman (like Stradivarius or Rodan) or, when it’s stuff like armor and weapons taken from those that attacked them and lost. In my campaign the long distance runs typically carry things like elven artwork, magic, Dwarven armor and weapons, musical instruments from Waterdeep’s Bard College, furs from the north on southern trips, calishite goods headed north or east, etc.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Yeah, Tradesfolk are a part of it -- I was mostly taking note of the distinction between a Merchant (who was local) and a Trader (who traveled) because it stood out in comparison to the "default" system in D&D with "Merchant" being a fairly broad catch all.
I will note that under the system, Merchants were the local powers (it was Merchants who established Banks, after all). Mostly it was to note that by and large Traders dealt with Merchants -- which is made clear by your notes, in terms of the gross aspect.
You and Bob_the_Fish have this down, so I am learning ;). I might know the Price of Bread rule and macrosystems, but this is outside of my personal expertise, so it is opening my eyes to things that I have been hesitant to address in my new setting.
For a translation example: I can see that this is how we got Futures (like Pork Belly and Gold) and run through that, but stuff like the tonnage and grossage aspects, the closest I have come is determining that all trade uses a common standard carriage format (think shipping containers). The rest is kinda outside my ability to conceive as I have no touchstone for it..
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds