Again you assume things you shouldnt... I see the words bad dm thrown everytimes. If that is the case then you are as well since you are not playing by the rules or simply like me.
But reality is were not bad dms because of problems. Problems doesnt mean bad dming. Problems always arises and those who think otherwise are just blissful.
Im a pretty darn good dm. And i still am improving.
But no... Based on your xp definition.... None of that happen at my table ! I actually reward narrative. I even had a player cry for real when speaking of his dead father in game. So no my players arent crunchy at all. They love xp as it is even though bad experiences were making them not want it. They are narrative driven and my games are about them. Want that 50xp convince me ! Do something worth it. May it be mechanical in combat or role playing wise. Otherwise... Youll gain it next session !
But reading your post... You are giving us reason that why you love milestone is simply because its easier on you.
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I played Pathfinder before 5e, and I think the biggest way my dm passed large chunks of time was with travel. Getting from place to place would take days or weeks, and he kept a calendar as we went. We also tracked rations, so sometimes it was important to have down-time days where we all just shopped around a town before heading out on the road again.
I agree that healing in 5e is unrealistically fast, and I also think leveling up "automatically" is a bit strange, but you can sort of...twist these mechanics a bit.
Like maybe the healing you get from a long rest is sort of like the energy you get from caffeine: it'll do for now, but you're going to feel it later and can't keep this up for too long without facing some ugly consequences. That way you could have the players recuperate for, say, a month after they're out of the frying pan, and have the next adventure hook appear to them after that little healing montage. The same idea goes for levelling up, where they can only do it during downtime rather than automatically when they hit a certain EXP number. The wizard takes a week to learn her new spells, the monk does a bit of meditation, the fighter perfects a new technique...and you roll the clock forward. As long as the world isn't in immediate peril, there's no reason not to have these little timeskips after each dungeon or level-up, and for the players it would all take the same amount of time if they don't want to rp through it somehow.
The campaign Im currently DMing (a heavily bastardized 2e) has been 6 years in game - 3 years in real time, and is scheduled to continue for another 5 in game years, where it starts a chain reaction of campains spanning the next 25 in game years. The PCs in this campaign so far are on average level 10 single class characters. This is due to a severe reduction in xp earned. Both myself and my players find this more gratifying, and it encourages role playing by taking focus off of statistical improvement and putting it more onto the experience instead.
I really don't think the "automatic" leveling is weird at all. It's not like you aren't spending time learning new spells, techniques, etc. You're doing all of those things as you are gaining the experience. Reaching a new level is just the moment when all that training & preparation "clicks".
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I appear to be doing something wrong then because players have faceda challenges over the last two in game years and 1 year real time and are only level 8. Then again I advance level based on story progression and clever play rather than xp charts. The amount of tedium you add to your game in the form of downtime is up to you as the DM. There is nothing stopping you from setting your campaign up so that the players have more downtime to accomplish lengthy activities of world building or relationship building or crafting, there just isn't an official written rule for all of it, which is supposed to be a key feature of 5e, leaving it to the DM and players. Also there aren't always 6 medium challenges for players to face each day of the week so that should affect your pacing as well. It took my players over a year to run curse of Strahd and they weren't level 10 until Strahd was actually defeated as I saw that as the drowning achievement of the story and the set piece for the level cap.
the problem with with XP was never about how the rules explinaed it, but th efact that none of the DMs back then were adding more XP as a reward for roleplaying oir things like that... basically since only monsters had XP written all over th eplace, people thought only combat was giving off XP. while the books even in 1e and 2e era clearly stated that you should give out XP as a reward when you feel like your players have earned it. back in my 2e era, by combat alone, based on fact that we never received any XP for anything else then combat... took me 3 years to get to level 5. and that was playing an hour each days during school lunches.
reality being... up to 3rd edition... treasures was giving off XP as well and somehow nobody was ever giving you XP for finding treasures. managing a campaign is only a burden if you make mistakes in doing it. aka not giving your players enough XP or rewards in general. Exemple, i was starving my players Gold wise... it was fine for a while, but now they started complaining that they dont have money to buy stuff. that's totally my cue to start giving some out. if i dont i will lose them out due to my mistake, not the games mistake. mine ! we're also playing XP, if i don't give out XP for quest completed, good role plays and the likes, then yeah... they wont be level 15 until about 3 years from now ? as they tend to avoid combat all together. it is not the fault of the game, but mine if i dont give out rewards as needed. and thats been written since the very first edition of D&D. and i still have the books to prove it.
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To be honest, I threw out the 5e rules for XP and award what I feel my PCs deserve and my players never wonder why 3rd level came in two sessions but 4th level took a month or more. They don’t remember their level progression nearly as much as they remember having fun and getting to do cool stuff.
I got tired of calculating exp and keeping tabs and have found the move to milestone liberating. For mine it is not really about hitting points in the story-arc, it is more when they have completed something of significant either as a group or individually that prompts this time. In addition, I have a hard rule that each leveling up takes new level number of days to train and learn new free spells. Usually this can get spread out more and can be used for lots of backstory or finding new directions to explore and happens mostly between sessions (except shopping which I am not sure why it is such a fascinating thing they want to do together).
I like to make it take time and Eberron, even with its fast travel options has so many cool places spread out that it just takes time to get from point a to point b which can lead to lots of fun little side quests.
I use a modified version of the critical injuries option in the DMG, which can "pad out" recovery times quite a bit. If a Greater Restoration is available, it can speed things along, but by that time the PCs are decently high level anyway.
But if a rogue broke their leg in my campaign, they wouldn't be recovering from it with a long rest!!
@biglizard out of 25 different DMs i had in 2e era during my school time... None of them gave out XP for accomplishments. All of them were giving out only monsters XP. Maybe you are the lucky one who got DM who actually read and understood the books. But to me, in my experience playing a lot back then... If DM werent seeing numbers clearly writtens like in monsters stats block... They did not gave out XP.
I like milestones. Really do... But a game where everyone isnt the same level brings a set of uniqueness that you just cant get with milestone. That and i feel like my players have a better sense of accomplishment with xp while milestone they dont know if they go forward or not.
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In some older editions of the game XP was awarded to Magic Users and Clerics per spell cast, to Fighters for being the first to charge into the fray, and to Thieves per trap disarmed and lock defeated. As to the XP awarded for “defeating” monsters and villains, anything that got the party past the threat earned the XP, even just sneaking or talking your way past them.
“Experience Points” are meant to be a numerical representation of how much the characters have learned through their actual in-game experiences. How much “learning” each character achieved is determined by the DM. Make up your own economy for your game just like for money. In my campaign 1GP is roughly analogous to $100. In my friend’s game 1GP=$1.
In my campaign I use XP to restrict or enable character abilities for the next adventure the same way I use Gold to restrict/enable the characters’ equipment. My players love the feeling of accomplishment, and nothing makes them feel more accomplished than having to struggle in order to overcome. Too much XP too quickly makes the game less challenging just like too much Gold.
I still got the 2e manuals. None of them gives out clear representation of the XP you must give. Literally only monsters had an XP stats clearly written out. What i mean is that, in game, many DMs are going by the book. And if they dont see a table saying how many XP you gained after exactly this or that event. Then those DMs are not giving XP.
When 3e came out treasures were clearly giving you XP as it had a stat and thus many DM started giving you more. The best proof comes from 5e though. How many preffers milestones instead purely because there is no easy way to know how many XP a quest should give ? Which page tell you how many XP is gained from lock picking that impossible door ? XP is one of those things they never really explored over the years hence why it was always described as DM Fiat. Something most casual gamers wouldnt even understand as they preffer clear explanations.
For my part. I love 5e more... Easier on players and it brought a lot of things back into the DMs hands.
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None of my players have ever nitpicked or complained about how much XP they have gotten, and I have never found it necessary to do so either. I have had 1 player come to me and start list how many goblins his character had wounded that session. Before he was barely started I simply said “I don’t do XP that way.” He said ok and closed his book. I told him how much XP he got and he wrote it down and never brought it up again. Nobody has ever complained about how I award XP. I use what’s listed in the MM, mostly ignore the DMG, assign my own values to traps, puzzles, social encounters, etc. as I plan my maps and sessions. At the end of each session I total up whatever the part overcame that session by whatever means (combat, skills, stealth, discord, whatever) and divide by the number of PCs. If anyone particularly impressed me with their RP or creativity I award them an extra 25-50 XP/occurrence. Two characters in my current group are about to hit lvl5 a session ahead of the other 4 PCs. They feel validated for their efforts, the others will feel a little inspired by their party members showing off cool new abilities. Nobody ever falls more than a session or two behind the others, and nobody ever complains. They went from lvl 1-3 in four sessions. Levels 3-4 will take two of them 4 sessions, and four of them five sessions, level 5 will probably take them close to eight to ten sessions and none of them will complain because they are hearing a fun story, doing cool s**t, and having fun. We play every two weeks, so that eighteen to twentyish sessions is the better part of a year to hit level 5. If your players are counting how many goblins they contributed to the deaths of, maybe just tell them “I don’t do it that way” and wait for them to sit down.
@Iamspotsta this is exactly what i am saying... you do it the right way, because you do add more XP based on what players are doing. that's good use of XP as a Reward. which is what it is right from the get go.
I use what’s listed in the MM, mostly ignore the DMG, assign my own values to traps, puzzles, social encounters, etc.
what i have bolded in your sentence is what i have a problem with. most DMs when using XP are doing just those because there is no table that says specifically what should be given XP wise for certain situations. when i was in school during the 2e era of D&D. i played a lot, out of all the DMs i had played with, they all foillowed the books closely and since the book never mentionned XP specifically, they never gave out XP and the only excuses we had back then was mostly... fight more and you shall gain more XP. my own experience was like that. if yours was different back then, then fine by me, you ar elucky. my experience with many a DMs was very very different. leveling was very very hard because none of the DMs were not giving out XP for anything else then monsters. mainly because if asked about it, they would say its the only place where there is a listing of XP.
as for crying about it, i have yet to see any of my players argue that they take forever to level, except if its been about 6 month to a year at the same level, which did happen once. leveling is part of the process and players feels a level of accomplishment when they can finally get those ASI or that feature they wanted so badly. sorry but i love leveling because when i plan my characters i plan them for 20 levels. i am like that, i plan characters on the long term and even plan before hand what their lives will be. the adventures is what puts meat on the bones i developped. so if i am gonna stay level 5 for 2 years because my DM loves it at that level, then you gotta be god damn sure to tell me before i make my character. otherwise i'll be pissed off and might even lend that "are we close to leveling yet?" sentence from me. i have no problem playing a low level characters and have found them to be cooler to play then high level characters. but i like advancement and not leveling is counter productive to that.
again my experience with XP is that XP compared to milestone is giving your players a feel for advancement. while with milestones i would sometimes get the fabled "are we close to leveling yet ?" becaus they have no idea where they are in the story or where your milestone is. its all in the DMs head and often the DM do not communicate these details to his players. that's legitimately keeping your players in the dark. which to me is bad. i love milestones... but based on our little experiment right now with XP versus milestones... my players seems much more inclined to do stuff because XP is involved. and they have that stats to track their current advancement on quest and explorations. milestones made them not worry about leveling at all and after a few adventures they were wondering when they would level up. because it had been a while. and when i said, you never finished any of the quest you had started. they were like, "true..." after that i cannot say anything esle then... they simply never felt the advancement. something XP is really really good at.
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assigning random XP values and handing them out whenever the DM feels that the players earned it....is no different from using milestones. Only difference is that the players can see an artificial number rise on their sheet when given XP. so why are you guys having this none argument again?
@Giblix, its no arguments. i literally said i loved both approach. and yet you guys seems to htink both milestones and XP are the same thing, which they aren't. as you said yourself, you actually see the progress because of the numbers on your sheet, while milestones are literally invisible and completely leave the players in the unknown. personnally... i preffer the XP route because the players actually see the progress and are actually involved as they know whats missing and will be more inclined to go for quest if the reward is worth it. XP is a great reward to give players, much more then treasures will ever be.
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My party spent three months on one adventure at fourth level. They just finished tonight, so I bumped them to fifth. I looked up the recommended rate of advancement in the DMG (one level every two-three sessions) and cackled for an hour.
I’m not against faster progression in the abstract, but this pace is appropriate to the story I want to tell in this game. If I tried to use straight-up xp based advancement, it would just turn into a milestone system anyway since non-combat xp rewards are so ad hoc (in those three months, we did precisely three fights, and that’s unusually combat-heavy for us). Use whatever works best for your campaign.
Paladin: I have a functional mind, a strong education, and a lifetime of experience. Why in the heck would I need some silly chart full of arbitrary numbers to tell me how to pace out a narrative?!? While the current group was still lvl 2 I asked the Warlock’s player what pact he was gonna take.. When the battle was over and the party was surrounded by the corpses of a goblin war and AND a dialed-up Ogre i NARRATED his Swordpact upgrade. Everyone thought it was f*****g cool when the previously one-armed character felt an itching on the stump, took of the prosthetic, and suddenly manifest an obsidian gauntlet as his new hand. Cool moments, and how much/little they have to struggle to face the next challenge are narrative decisions for me. But the players, they like having a numbers to put in boxes, so I obliged them.I’ve been doing XP that way since the midd ‘90s.
It is interesting that whenever I see a poll for how players like the games to play out "Balanced, but leaning towards hard" inevitably ends up with the most votes. "Milk Run" ends up with the fewest votes, and "easy" earns not many more. It is only in these forums that I've encountered people who vocally advocate for "players expect to win." Only in these forums do I encounter the concept that "challenging" is anathema.
My reference isn't to desire of modern players, my reference is to the design of modern D&D, alla 5th edition for example and how it actually plays out. Players want challenges, they want danger and risk, in this regard things have not changed, but 5e by design is setup for the "easy wins". At a 5e table you know that unless its some sort of boss fight, you are expected to win it by design. Between balancing of encounters with CR systems, save me mechanics like healing surges and death saves and restructuring of healing mechanics and the like, the game is difficult to make difficult. It takes a concentrated effort and some house ruling to make 5e a challenging, properly deadly game for players, which is weird because that's exactly what players really want by and large (and I do agree with you, most polls I have seen confirm this)
And, if I haven't said it already, I agree with you, the most important thing is to have fun. No one is disputing that. But what the poles show players want and how modern D&D is designed are out of sync.
It is not anathema though... ask the same question but add this to your poll !
Hard and challenging, but winnable ! Hard and challenging with near certain death !
you'll see wher the "expected to win" comes from. most players, yes, wants a challenge. but they all expect that challenge to be beatable and thus forcing them to search for that outcome. this is the most logical thing, why would you play if there is no chance for you to win ? the worse D&D stories are often coming from a DM who just wreck his players for fun by putting encounters the players had no chances to begin with. so in the end, your players expect to win the battle. because they think that if they failed to do that, it would be because of their own faults. they expect the battle to be winnable and will search for that outcome !
that's where it comes from.
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Again you assume things you shouldnt... I see the words bad dm thrown everytimes. If that is the case then you are as well since you are not playing by the rules or simply like me.
But reality is were not bad dms because of problems. Problems doesnt mean bad dming. Problems always arises and those who think otherwise are just blissful.
Im a pretty darn good dm. And i still am improving.
But no... Based on your xp definition.... None of that happen at my table ! I actually reward narrative. I even had a player cry for real when speaking of his dead father in game. So no my players arent crunchy at all. They love xp as it is even though bad experiences were making them not want it. They are narrative driven and my games are about them. Want that 50xp convince me ! Do something worth it. May it be mechanical in combat or role playing wise. Otherwise... Youll gain it next session !
But reading your post... You are giving us reason that why you love milestone is simply because its easier on you.
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I played Pathfinder before 5e, and I think the biggest way my dm passed large chunks of time was with travel. Getting from place to place would take days or weeks, and he kept a calendar as we went. We also tracked rations, so sometimes it was important to have down-time days where we all just shopped around a town before heading out on the road again.
I agree that healing in 5e is unrealistically fast, and I also think leveling up "automatically" is a bit strange, but you can sort of...twist these mechanics a bit.
Like maybe the healing you get from a long rest is sort of like the energy you get from caffeine: it'll do for now, but you're going to feel it later and can't keep this up for too long without facing some ugly consequences. That way you could have the players recuperate for, say, a month after they're out of the frying pan, and have the next adventure hook appear to them after that little healing montage. The same idea goes for levelling up, where they can only do it during downtime rather than automatically when they hit a certain EXP number. The wizard takes a week to learn her new spells, the monk does a bit of meditation, the fighter perfects a new technique...and you roll the clock forward. As long as the world isn't in immediate peril, there's no reason not to have these little timeskips after each dungeon or level-up, and for the players it would all take the same amount of time if they don't want to rp through it somehow.
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The campaign Im currently DMing (a heavily bastardized 2e) has been 6 years in game - 3 years in real time, and is scheduled to continue for another 5 in game years, where it starts a chain reaction of campains spanning the next 25 in game years. The PCs in this campaign so far are on average level 10 single class characters. This is due to a severe reduction in xp earned. Both myself and my players find this more gratifying, and it encourages role playing by taking focus off of statistical improvement and putting it more onto the experience instead.
I really don't think the "automatic" leveling is weird at all. It's not like you aren't spending time learning new spells, techniques, etc. You're doing all of those things as you are gaining the experience. Reaching a new level is just the moment when all that training & preparation "clicks".
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I appear to be doing something wrong then because players have faceda challenges over the last two in game years and 1 year real time and are only level 8. Then again I advance level based on story progression and clever play rather than xp charts. The amount of tedium you add to your game in the form of downtime is up to you as the DM. There is nothing stopping you from setting your campaign up so that the players have more downtime to accomplish lengthy activities of world building or relationship building or crafting, there just isn't an official written rule for all of it, which is supposed to be a key feature of 5e, leaving it to the DM and players. Also there aren't always 6 medium challenges for players to face each day of the week so that should affect your pacing as well. It took my players over a year to run curse of Strahd and they weren't level 10 until Strahd was actually defeated as I saw that as the drowning achievement of the story and the set piece for the level cap.
the problem with with XP was never about how the rules explinaed it, but th efact that none of the DMs back then were adding more XP as a reward for roleplaying oir things like that... basically since only monsters had XP written all over th eplace, people thought only combat was giving off XP. while the books even in 1e and 2e era clearly stated that you should give out XP as a reward when you feel like your players have earned it. back in my 2e era, by combat alone, based on fact that we never received any XP for anything else then combat... took me 3 years to get to level 5. and that was playing an hour each days during school lunches.
reality being... up to 3rd edition... treasures was giving off XP as well and somehow nobody was ever giving you XP for finding treasures.
managing a campaign is only a burden if you make mistakes in doing it. aka not giving your players enough XP or rewards in general.
Exemple, i was starving my players Gold wise... it was fine for a while, but now they started complaining that they dont have money to buy stuff. that's totally my cue to start giving some out. if i dont i will lose them out due to my mistake, not the games mistake. mine ! we're also playing XP, if i don't give out XP for quest completed, good role plays and the likes, then yeah... they wont be level 15 until about 3 years from now ? as they tend to avoid combat all together. it is not the fault of the game, but mine if i dont give out rewards as needed. and thats been written since the very first edition of D&D. and i still have the books to prove it.
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To be honest, I threw out the 5e rules for XP and award what I feel my PCs deserve and my players never wonder why 3rd level came in two sessions but 4th level took a month or more. They don’t remember their level progression nearly as much as they remember having fun and getting to do cool stuff.
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I got tired of calculating exp and keeping tabs and have found the move to milestone liberating. For mine it is not really about hitting points in the story-arc, it is more when they have completed something of significant either as a group or individually that prompts this time. In addition, I have a hard rule that each leveling up takes new level number of days to train and learn new free spells. Usually this can get spread out more and can be used for lots of backstory or finding new directions to explore and happens mostly between sessions (except shopping which I am not sure why it is such a fascinating thing they want to do together).
I like to make it take time and Eberron, even with its fast travel options has so many cool places spread out that it just takes time to get from point a to point b which can lead to lots of fun little side quests.
I use a modified version of the critical injuries option in the DMG, which can "pad out" recovery times quite a bit. If a Greater Restoration is available, it can speed things along, but by that time the PCs are decently high level anyway.
But if a rogue broke their leg in my campaign, they wouldn't be recovering from it with a long rest!!
@biglizard out of 25 different DMs i had in 2e era during my school time... None of them gave out XP for accomplishments. All of them were giving out only monsters XP. Maybe you are the lucky one who got DM who actually read and understood the books. But to me, in my experience playing a lot back then... If DM werent seeing numbers clearly writtens like in monsters stats block... They did not gave out XP.
I like milestones. Really do... But a game where everyone isnt the same level brings a set of uniqueness that you just cant get with milestone. That and i feel like my players have a better sense of accomplishment with xp while milestone they dont know if they go forward or not.
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In some older editions of the game XP was awarded to Magic Users and Clerics per spell cast, to Fighters for being the first to charge into the fray, and to Thieves per trap disarmed and lock defeated. As to the XP awarded for “defeating” monsters and villains, anything that got the party past the threat earned the XP, even just sneaking or talking your way past them.
“Experience Points” are meant to be a numerical representation of how much the characters have learned through their actual in-game experiences. How much “learning” each character achieved is determined by the DM. Make up your own economy for your game just like for money. In my campaign 1GP is roughly analogous to $100. In my friend’s game 1GP=$1.
In my campaign I use XP to restrict or enable character abilities for the next adventure the same way I use Gold to restrict/enable the characters’ equipment. My players love the feeling of accomplishment, and nothing makes them feel more accomplished than having to struggle in order to overcome. Too much XP too quickly makes the game less challenging just like too much Gold.
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Iamspotsta...
I still got the 2e manuals. None of them gives out clear representation of the XP you must give. Literally only monsters had an XP stats clearly written out. What i mean is that, in game, many DMs are going by the book. And if they dont see a table saying how many XP you gained after exactly this or that event. Then those DMs are not giving XP.
When 3e came out treasures were clearly giving you XP as it had a stat and thus many DM started giving you more. The best proof comes from 5e though. How many preffers milestones instead purely because there is no easy way to know how many XP a quest should give ? Which page tell you how many XP is gained from lock picking that impossible door ? XP is one of those things they never really explored over the years hence why it was always described as DM Fiat. Something most casual gamers wouldnt even understand as they preffer clear explanations.
For my part. I love 5e more... Easier on players and it brought a lot of things back into the DMs hands.
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None of my players have ever nitpicked or complained about how much XP they have gotten, and I have never found it necessary to do so either. I have had 1 player come to me and start list how many goblins his character had wounded that session. Before he was barely started I simply said “I don’t do XP that way.” He said ok and closed his book. I told him how much XP he got and he wrote it down and never brought it up again. Nobody has ever complained about how I award XP. I use what’s listed in the MM, mostly ignore the DMG, assign my own values to traps, puzzles, social encounters, etc. as I plan my maps and sessions. At the end of each session I total up whatever the part overcame that session by whatever means (combat, skills, stealth, discord, whatever) and divide by the number of PCs. If anyone particularly impressed me with their RP or creativity I award them an extra 25-50 XP/occurrence. Two characters in my current group are about to hit lvl5 a session ahead of the other 4 PCs. They feel validated for their efforts, the others will feel a little inspired by their party members showing off cool new abilities. Nobody ever falls more than a session or two behind the others, and nobody ever complains. They went from lvl 1-3 in four sessions. Levels 3-4 will take two of them 4 sessions, and four of them five sessions, level 5 will probably take them close to eight to ten sessions and none of them will complain because they are hearing a fun story, doing cool s**t, and having fun. We play every two weeks, so that eighteen to twentyish sessions is the better part of a year to hit level 5. If your players are counting how many goblins they contributed to the deaths of, maybe just tell them “I don’t do it that way” and wait for them to sit down.
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@Iamspotsta this is exactly what i am saying... you do it the right way, because you do add more XP based on what players are doing. that's good use of XP as a Reward. which is what it is right from the get go.
what i have bolded in your sentence is what i have a problem with. most DMs when using XP are doing just those because there is no table that says specifically what should be given XP wise for certain situations. when i was in school during the 2e era of D&D. i played a lot, out of all the DMs i had played with, they all foillowed the books closely and since the book never mentionned XP specifically, they never gave out XP and the only excuses we had back then was mostly... fight more and you shall gain more XP. my own experience was like that. if yours was different back then, then fine by me, you ar elucky. my experience with many a DMs was very very different. leveling was very very hard because none of the DMs were not giving out XP for anything else then monsters. mainly because if asked about it, they would say its the only place where there is a listing of XP.
as for crying about it, i have yet to see any of my players argue that they take forever to level, except if its been about 6 month to a year at the same level, which did happen once. leveling is part of the process and players feels a level of accomplishment when they can finally get those ASI or that feature they wanted so badly. sorry but i love leveling because when i plan my characters i plan them for 20 levels. i am like that, i plan characters on the long term and even plan before hand what their lives will be. the adventures is what puts meat on the bones i developped. so if i am gonna stay level 5 for 2 years because my DM loves it at that level, then you gotta be god damn sure to tell me before i make my character. otherwise i'll be pissed off and might even lend that "are we close to leveling yet?" sentence from me. i have no problem playing a low level characters and have found them to be cooler to play then high level characters. but i like advancement and not leveling is counter productive to that.
again my experience with XP is that XP compared to milestone is giving your players a feel for advancement.
while with milestones i would sometimes get the fabled "are we close to leveling yet ?" becaus they have no idea where they are in the story or where your milestone is.
its all in the DMs head and often the DM do not communicate these details to his players. that's legitimately keeping your players in the dark. which to me is bad.
i love milestones... but based on our little experiment right now with XP versus milestones... my players seems much more inclined to do stuff because XP is involved. and they have that stats to track their current advancement on quest and explorations. milestones made them not worry about leveling at all and after a few adventures they were wondering when they would level up. because it had been a while. and when i said, you never finished any of the quest you had started. they were like, "true..." after that i cannot say anything esle then... they simply never felt the advancement. something XP is really really good at.
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assigning random XP values and handing them out whenever the DM feels that the players earned it....is no different from using milestones. Only difference is that the players can see an artificial number rise on their sheet when given XP. so why are you guys having this none argument again?
@Giblix, its no arguments. i literally said i loved both approach. and yet you guys seems to htink both milestones and XP are the same thing, which they aren't.
as you said yourself, you actually see the progress because of the numbers on your sheet, while milestones are literally invisible and completely leave the players in the unknown.
personnally... i preffer the XP route because the players actually see the progress and are actually involved as they know whats missing and will be more inclined to go for quest if the reward is worth it. XP is a great reward to give players, much more then treasures will ever be.
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My party spent three months on one adventure at fourth level. They just finished tonight, so I bumped them to fifth. I looked up the recommended rate of advancement in the DMG (one level every two-three sessions) and cackled for an hour.
I’m not against faster progression in the abstract, but this pace is appropriate to the story I want to tell in this game. If I tried to use straight-up xp based advancement, it would just turn into a milestone system anyway since non-combat xp rewards are so ad hoc (in those three months, we did precisely three fights, and that’s unusually combat-heavy for us). Use whatever works best for your campaign.
Paladin: I have a functional mind, a strong education, and a lifetime of experience. Why in the heck would I need some silly chart full of arbitrary numbers to tell me how to pace out a narrative?!? While the current group was still lvl 2 I asked the Warlock’s player what pact he was gonna take.. When the battle was over and the party was surrounded by the corpses of a goblin war and AND a dialed-up Ogre i NARRATED his Swordpact upgrade. Everyone thought it was f*****g cool when the previously one-armed character felt an itching on the stump, took of the prosthetic, and suddenly manifest an obsidian gauntlet as his new hand. Cool moments, and how much/little they have to struggle to face the next challenge are narrative decisions for me. But the players, they like having a numbers to put in boxes, so I obliged them.I’ve been doing XP that way since the midd ‘90s.
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It is not anathema though...
ask the same question but add this to your poll !
Hard and challenging, but winnable !
Hard and challenging with near certain death !
you'll see wher the "expected to win" comes from.
most players, yes, wants a challenge. but they all expect that challenge to be beatable and thus forcing them to search for that outcome.
this is the most logical thing, why would you play if there is no chance for you to win ?
the worse D&D stories are often coming from a DM who just wreck his players for fun by putting encounters the players had no chances to begin with.
so in the end, your players expect to win the battle. because they think that if they failed to do that, it would be because of their own faults.
they expect the battle to be winnable and will search for that outcome !
that's where it comes from.
DM of two gaming groups.
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Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
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I'd like to see a poll question like this ...
After 100 hours of play (for example 25 sessions x 4 hrs per session - about a half of a year) I EXPECT to be at level:
A) lower than level 6
B) 6 - advance once every five sessions
C) 7 - advance once every four sessions
D) 9 - advance once every three sessions
E) 13 - advance once every other session
F) Higher than level 13