So in a short while I will be running a campaign for the first time. I'm doing it because I don't want our excellent DM to become a forever DM. The group understands I haven't done this before and have said they will go easy on me. But, they have all decided to be elves and half-elves. We will have a High Elf wizard, a half-elf Arcane Trickster rouge and a half-elf cleric (probably Tempest).
So how do you challenge a group that collectively:
1) Has advantage on saving throws to be charmed 2) Gains the benefit of a long rest in just 4 hours 3) Has proficiency on perception checks as well as whatever skills they can choose to add their bonuses to.
The elf is a wizard but can use a sword and has put a lot into Dex so she will generally be first in initiative ( I don't have a problem with this, it's to everyone's advantage to have the spell caster go first).
I know it shouldn't matter - every race/class has strengths and weaknesses but I really don't know what to throw against them that won't either be a cakewalk or a TPK. I know being a DM is a lot of work but it seems like the make up of this party is going to be twice as much work for me and I'm wondering if I should bow out now because I'm not sure I can make this a fun experience.
Saving throws against charm (and immunity to sleep spells) - how often are you using these that it is a real issue? In fact I would throw in an encounter that replies primarily on charm (harpies for example) just so they could feel powerful. But this isn't doing anything against a group of orcs or gnolls or giants or slimes or ... you see my point?
Benefit of a long rest after 4 hours. Doesn't matter much. They are still limited by travel time by exhaustion checks. Maybe they can get to areas a little faster or maybe they can have less random attacks (or at least less surprise by random attacks). Doesn't mean the shops are open, or that they items recharge faster. Again, not much changes in the adventure. Time of the long rest rarely becomes a deciding factor in anything.
Perception checks, can be a big one. They will find traps, creatures and hidden things. Don't love passive perception in 5e; I struggle to reconcile it easily - but again not that big of a deal. They find stuff. It is hard to surprise them. Okay - again doesn't matter if they see the orc horde before it over runs them ... and you often want them to find the hidden goodies; sucks to have them miss the cool item you laid out for them.
Honestly I think you are overthinking it. Relax, play it like you usually would and enjoy it. Nothing needs to change.
1) Don't try to charm them. Charm effects are rare enough on monsters as it is; it's really easy to just do something else.
2) They can still only benefit from one long rest per 24-hour period. This just gets them four more hours per day to do stuff, and it's usually resources, not time, that puts a stop to activity.
3) A lot of characters take proficiency in Perception. I... really can't see how this is an issue.
It sounds like you're making a mountain out of a molehill here. These things will be non-issues; you don't even have to try to work around them.
It shouldn't really matter, just approach it like any other campaign. This just gives you a chance to tailor a story to their similar races depending on their backgrounds and what they do with the opportunities presented. Perhaps an orc threat or hobgoblin threat, there are many monsters that really hate elves. Depending on the world you choose or create, they elves may have withdrawn from the world and are met with disdain when dealing with non-elves. The half-elves could get the worst of it from both elves and humans, not being generally accepted by either race.
The half-elves don't get trance either, so only the High Elf will have the 4-hour long rest and perception shouldn't be that much of an issue, most parties have 2-4 people that are proficient in perception anyway.
Check out the last chapter of "The Complete Book of Elves" from 2nd edition for some ideas as well if you like.
Dont forget you can only benefit from a long rest once per 24 hour period.
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"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Saving throws against charm (and immunity to sleep spells) - how often are you using these that it is a real issue? In fact I would throw in an encounter that replies primarily on charm (harpies for example) just so they could feel powerful. But this isn't doing anything against a group of orcs or gnolls or giants or slimes or ... you see my point?
Benefit of a long rest after 4 hours. Doesn't matter much. They are still limited by travel time by exhaustion checks. Maybe they can get to areas a little faster or maybe they can have less random attacks (or at least less surprise by random attacks). Doesn't mean the shops are open, or that they items recharge faster. Again, not much changes in the adventure. Time of the long rest rarely becomes a deciding factor in anything.
Perception checks, can be a big one. They will find traps, creatures and hidden things. Don't love passive perception in 5e; I struggle to reconcile it easily - but again not that big of a deal. They find stuff. It is hard to surprise them. Okay - again doesn't matter if they see the orc horde before it over runs them ... and you often want them to find the hidden goodies; sucks to have them miss the cool item you laid out for them.
Honestly I think you are overthinking it. Relax, play it like you usually would and enjoy it. Nothing needs to change.
Yes the perception checks are my biggest worry. Just having one player with high perception isn't an issue but three? I'm worried they will get bored. They will be able to find all the traps and the loot and never be surprised by the monster in the cave. Throwing hoards of something at them doesn't seem like it would be fun for them.
Thanks for the reassurance. I know I'm being neurotic. I just want them to have a good time.
Just because they find the trap doesn't mean they know how to avoid it. Pit trap across the whole width of a hall, they see it but then they need to find/make a way across. I find the trouble shooting more fun than the searching.
Just because they find the trap doesn't mean they know how to avoid it. Pit trap across the whole width of a hall, they see it but then they need to find/make a way across. I find the trouble shooting more fun than the searching.
That is a great point. I wasn't thinking about the troubleshooting aspect - which I enjoy. That more than anythings makes me feel better. Thank you!
Why would they get bored if they have high perception? That only matters if you are going to put them into a situation in which they need to be observant and pick up on things in their environment. I'm not saying you shouldn't do that (you should, sometimes), but you know they will have good perception so maybe don't make the entire premise of the adventure hinge on them not being able to perceive something.
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
2) Gains the benefit of a long rest in just 4 hours
They do not give them the benefit of a long rest in four hours. A long rest is 8 hours, 6 of which must be spent sleeping. Trance says they only need to zone out for 4 hours instead of sleeping. They still require an 8 hour long rest.
2) Gains the benefit of a long rest in just 4 hours
They do not give them the benefit of a long rest in four hours. A long rest is 8 hours, 6 of which must be spent sleeping. Trance says they only need to zone out for 4 hours instead of sleeping. They still require an 8 hour long rest.
The official RAW position is that elves only require four hours to do a long rest. There are other threads devoted to arguing about whether or not that's supported by the text. Don't turn this into one of them :p
So I have run into a similar issue with having many elves in the party. One of my players has a backstory essential to the campaign where I need them to be tricked into releasing an evil entity from an alter. I planned to do this by having the player go through various dreams or charms which would convince them that what they were doing was the right thing, or rather, believing that the alter had a completely different effect. Understandably, this plan has a problem...elves can't really be charmed and they don't exactly sleep. My response to this was to create a weapon which wasn't overpowered but enticing enough where they would want to use it. Part of attuning the item requires that the item be attuned for at least 24 hours before being able to be unequipped. Having the item attuned will cause the player to fall asleep and be able to have the dreams/visions I initially planned for them to have. So basically the weapon is cursed without them really knowing it, and they have the option of releasing the weapon which will help create the illusion that what they are doing will be the right course of action.
TL;DR: I homebrewed a cursed weapon to inhibit their racial traits enough where I could still use the plot devices I wanted to use, without the player feel like I am railroading or nerfing their character.
Sorry if this is vague, but if my players find this, I'd rather them not know exactly what I am talking about.
Perception checks, can be a big one. They will find traps, creatures and hidden things. Don't love passive perception in 5e; I struggle to reconcile it easily - but again not that big of a deal. They find stuff. It is hard to surprise them. Okay - again doesn't matter if they see the orc horde before it over runs them ... and you often want them to find the hidden goodies; sucks to have them miss the cool item you laid out for them.
Honestly I think you are overthinking it. Relax, play it like you usually would and enjoy it. Nothing needs to change.
Yes the perception checks are my biggest worry. Just having one player with high perception isn't an issue but three? I'm worried they will get bored. They will be able to find all the traps and the loot and never be surprised by the monster in the cave. Throwing hoards of something at them doesn't seem like it would be fun for them.
Thanks for the reassurance. I know I'm being neurotic. I just want them to have a good time.
Saving throws against charm (and immunity to sleep spells) - how often are you using these that it is a real issue? In fact I would throw in an encounter that replies primarily on charm (harpies for example) just so they could feel powerful. But this isn't doing anything against a group of orcs or gnolls or giants or slimes or ... you see my point?
Benefit of a long rest after 4 hours. Doesn't matter much. They are still limited by travel time by exhaustion checks. Maybe they can get to areas a little faster or maybe they can have less random attacks (or at least less surprise by random attacks). Doesn't mean the shops are open, or that they items recharge faster. Again, not much changes in the adventure. Time of the long rest rarely becomes a deciding factor in anything.
Perception checks, can be a big one. They will find traps, creatures and hidden things. Don't love passive perception in 5e; I struggle to reconcile it easily - but again not that big of a deal. They find stuff. It is hard to surprise them. Okay - again doesn't matter if they see the orc horde before it over runs them ... and you often want them to find the hidden goodies; sucks to have them miss the cool item you laid out for them.
Honestly I think you are overthinking it. Relax, play it like you usually would and enjoy it. Nothing needs to change.
Yes the perception checks are my biggest worry. Just having one player with high perception isn't an issue but three? I'm worried they will get bored. They will be able to find all the traps and the loot and never be surprised by the monster in the cave. Throwing hoards of something at them doesn't seem like it would be fun for them.
Thanks for the reassurance. I know I'm being neurotic. I just want them to have a good time.
Yes, they have high perception... doesn't mean they'll always remember to use it. You might still get to surprise them when they just stroll confidently into a cave.
I am with everyone else that says they still have fun no matter whether they're surprised or not. And if you do want to throw them for a curve...sounds like prime time for a mimic.
The most important thing to do is forget about the numbers. This is a game based on creativity where you are the creator of universe. If you get into an arms race with an over powered group, you will either kill them all or you will just make them stronger and harder to challenge next time. There are many ways to use a parties strengths against them, think Agincourt. Terrain and environmental factors can limit or completely disable their advantage. Deep mud, heavy fog, noxious fumes, extreme temperatures. It won't matter what kind of trance they are in, sitting still in the middle of the arctic will turn them into a delicious frozen treat for the first wandering monster that happens by.
Next, it in not important to find the most challenging monsters to throw against them. Using relentless waves of weaker monsters will deplete theirs spells and resources, allow you to push them into strategically unfavorable positions, and control the rate and amount of damage they are taking without destroying the party with one untimely roll. It is the death of a thousands cuts that will have your party wondering, "How many more are out there?". As the DM, you are the only one that knows that answer. As many as you need to make them sweat.
There are also many magic items that can literally pit the party against each other, but I find these to aggravate players if they are used to often. When you have players with sheets of stats, skills, and magic items sometimes the best thing to do is throw in a puzzle. They can still use all those stats to obtain clues, but it will be up the players to ask the right questions.
Lastly, role-playing challenges. It is role playing game after-all. As the DM you have the power to completely turn the tables on your players. Place them in a situation where using all those skills would cause more harm then good. Imagine a party of elves being sent on a diplomatic peace mission to a kingdom of Orcs.
As a Dm, especially a new DM, you are between a rock and hard place. You want to entertain and challenge your party but you also feel like you need to cater to their tastes. While it is a good idea to listen to your group and understand what they like, you must also realize, it is you, not them that are devoting most of the time and effort into creating their world. There are times when you will come across players that bring character builds of god-like proportions, ask yourself, are they really looking for a challenge or are they just trying to out-do each other? While inter-party competition can be fun, real world one-upmanship can cause personal animosity between everyone. As the Dm, you can ban builds, exclude races, and limit magic. Ultimately, it is up to you to make sure everyone at the table has a fair and enjoyable time, including you.
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So in a short while I will be running a campaign for the first time. I'm doing it because I don't want our excellent DM to become a forever DM. The group understands I haven't done this before and have said they will go easy on me. But, they have all decided to be elves and half-elves. We will have a High Elf wizard, a half-elf Arcane Trickster rouge and a half-elf cleric (probably Tempest).
So how do you challenge a group that collectively:
1) Has advantage on saving throws to be charmed
2) Gains the benefit of a long rest in just 4 hours
3) Has proficiency on perception checks as well as whatever skills they can choose to add their bonuses to.
The elf is a wizard but can use a sword and has put a lot into Dex so she will generally be first in initiative ( I don't have a problem with this, it's to everyone's advantage to have the spell caster go first).
I know it shouldn't matter - every race/class has strengths and weaknesses but I really don't know what to throw against them that won't either be a cakewalk or a TPK. I know being a DM is a lot of work but it seems like the make up of this party is going to be twice as much work for me and I'm wondering if I should bow out now because I'm not sure I can make this a fun experience.
Thanks in advance
?? Not really seeing the problem.
Saving throws against charm (and immunity to sleep spells) - how often are you using these that it is a real issue? In fact I would throw in an encounter that replies primarily on charm (harpies for example) just so they could feel powerful. But this isn't doing anything against a group of orcs or gnolls or giants or slimes or ... you see my point?
Benefit of a long rest after 4 hours. Doesn't matter much. They are still limited by travel time by exhaustion checks. Maybe they can get to areas a little faster or maybe they can have less random attacks (or at least less surprise by random attacks). Doesn't mean the shops are open, or that they items recharge faster. Again, not much changes in the adventure. Time of the long rest rarely becomes a deciding factor in anything.
Perception checks, can be a big one. They will find traps, creatures and hidden things. Don't love passive perception in 5e; I struggle to reconcile it easily - but again not that big of a deal. They find stuff. It is hard to surprise them. Okay - again doesn't matter if they see the orc horde before it over runs them ... and you often want them to find the hidden goodies; sucks to have them miss the cool item you laid out for them.
Honestly I think you are overthinking it. Relax, play it like you usually would and enjoy it. Nothing needs to change.
1) Don't try to charm them. Charm effects are rare enough on monsters as it is; it's really easy to just do something else.
2) They can still only benefit from one long rest per 24-hour period. This just gets them four more hours per day to do stuff, and it's usually resources, not time, that puts a stop to activity.
3) A lot of characters take proficiency in Perception. I... really can't see how this is an issue.
It sounds like you're making a mountain out of a molehill here. These things will be non-issues; you don't even have to try to work around them.
It shouldn't really matter, just approach it like any other campaign. This just gives you a chance to tailor a story to their similar races depending on their backgrounds and what they do with the opportunities presented. Perhaps an orc threat or hobgoblin threat, there are many monsters that really hate elves. Depending on the world you choose or create, they elves may have withdrawn from the world and are met with disdain when dealing with non-elves. The half-elves could get the worst of it from both elves and humans, not being generally accepted by either race.
The half-elves don't get trance either, so only the High Elf will have the 4-hour long rest and perception shouldn't be that much of an issue, most parties have 2-4 people that are proficient in perception anyway.
Check out the last chapter of "The Complete Book of Elves" from 2nd edition for some ideas as well if you like.
Dont forget you can only benefit from a long rest once per 24 hour period.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Ah you are right. I misread something in the PHB and thought half-elves also had Trance. Thank you!
Yes the perception checks are my biggest worry. Just having one player with high perception isn't an issue but three? I'm worried they will get bored. They will be able to find all the traps and the loot and never be surprised by the monster in the cave. Throwing hoards of something at them doesn't seem like it would be fun for them.
Thanks for the reassurance. I know I'm being neurotic. I just want them to have a good time.
Just because they find the trap doesn't mean they know how to avoid it. Pit trap across the whole width of a hall, they see it but then they need to find/make a way across. I find the trouble shooting more fun than the searching.
That is a great point. I wasn't thinking about the troubleshooting aspect - which I enjoy. That more than anythings makes me feel better. Thank you!
Why would they get bored if they have high perception? That only matters if you are going to put them into a situation in which they need to be observant and pick up on things in their environment. I'm not saying you shouldn't do that (you should, sometimes), but you know they will have good perception so maybe don't make the entire premise of the adventure hinge on them not being able to perceive something.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
They do not give them the benefit of a long rest in four hours. A long rest is 8 hours, 6 of which must be spent sleeping. Trance says they only need to zone out for 4 hours instead of sleeping. They still require an 8 hour long rest.
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The official RAW position is that elves only require four hours to do a long rest. There are other threads devoted to arguing about whether or not that's supported by the text. Don't turn this into one of them :p
High perception is fine. Make them roll for it. They'll usually succeed.
Players like seeing things, finding things, and so on. They'll have fun.
High perception doesn't break things, it just makes sure they see more of what you've prepared.
So I have run into a similar issue with having many elves in the party. One of my players has a backstory essential to the campaign where I need them to be tricked into releasing an evil entity from an alter. I planned to do this by having the player go through various dreams or charms which would convince them that what they were doing was the right thing, or rather, believing that the alter had a completely different effect. Understandably, this plan has a problem...elves can't really be charmed and they don't exactly sleep. My response to this was to create a weapon which wasn't overpowered but enticing enough where they would want to use it. Part of attuning the item requires that the item be attuned for at least 24 hours before being able to be unequipped. Having the item attuned will cause the player to fall asleep and be able to have the dreams/visions I initially planned for them to have. So basically the weapon is cursed without them really knowing it, and they have the option of releasing the weapon which will help create the illusion that what they are doing will be the right course of action.
TL;DR: I homebrewed a cursed weapon to inhibit their racial traits enough where I could still use the plot devices I wanted to use, without the player feel like I am railroading or nerfing their character.
Sorry if this is vague, but if my players find this, I'd rather them not know exactly what I am talking about.
That's a great idea! I'll keep it in mind if/when I need to get around any of those racial traits.
Yes, they have high perception... doesn't mean they'll always remember to use it. You might still get to surprise them when they just stroll confidently into a cave.
I am with everyone else that says they still have fun no matter whether they're surprised or not. And if you do want to throw them for a curve...sounds like prime time for a mimic.
The most important thing to do is forget about the numbers. This is a game based on creativity where you are the creator of universe. If you get into an arms race with an over powered group, you will either kill them all or you will just make them stronger and harder to challenge next time. There are many ways to use a parties strengths against them, think Agincourt. Terrain and environmental factors can limit or completely disable their advantage. Deep mud, heavy fog, noxious fumes, extreme temperatures. It won't matter what kind of trance they are in, sitting still in the middle of the arctic will turn them into a delicious frozen treat for the first wandering monster that happens by.
Next, it in not important to find the most challenging monsters to throw against them. Using relentless waves of weaker monsters will deplete theirs spells and resources, allow you to push them into strategically unfavorable positions, and control the rate and amount of damage they are taking without destroying the party with one untimely roll. It is the death of a thousands cuts that will have your party wondering, "How many more are out there?". As the DM, you are the only one that knows that answer. As many as you need to make them sweat.
There are also many magic items that can literally pit the party against each other, but I find these to aggravate players if they are used to often. When you have players with sheets of stats, skills, and magic items sometimes the best thing to do is throw in a puzzle. They can still use all those stats to obtain clues, but it will be up the players to ask the right questions.
Lastly, role-playing challenges. It is role playing game after-all. As the DM you have the power to completely turn the tables on your players. Place them in a situation where using all those skills would cause more harm then good. Imagine a party of elves being sent on a diplomatic peace mission to a kingdom of Orcs.
As a Dm, especially a new DM, you are between a rock and hard place. You want to entertain and challenge your party but you also feel like you need to cater to their tastes. While it is a good idea to listen to your group and understand what they like, you must also realize, it is you, not them that are devoting most of the time and effort into creating their world. There are times when you will come across players that bring character builds of god-like proportions, ask yourself, are they really looking for a challenge or are they just trying to out-do each other? While inter-party competition can be fun, real world one-upmanship can cause personal animosity between everyone. As the Dm, you can ban builds, exclude races, and limit magic. Ultimately, it is up to you to make sure everyone at the table has a fair and enjoyable time, including you.