So I'm planning an encounter with a hag who is corrupting a town through dream pastries, similar to the coven in strahd. However after doing plenty of reading on hags and the pastries themselves I notice they are described consistently as the same little pies. It got me wondering why?
As I understand the pastries work by using the crushed bones of the innocent as a partial flour replacement( which seems like something that would maybe work irl in a pastry but its hard to find sources of people actually using bone meal in bread and baked goods). So reasonably in a world where this works why would the Dream Pastries need to be mince pies? Isn't it reasonable to assume they could be any baked good using flour? Honestly in my mind a particularly industrious Hag could make a whole bakery with everything from cookies and cake and pies to puff pastries and rolls and loaves of dream bread. She could even make regular baked goods as well and specifically be more choosy with who she makes an addict of.
I also think this would be good for tricking seasoned players who have encountered the standard Dream Pastries before. If they expect them to look like little mincemeat pies they aren't going to be suspicious of the town baker and her wondrously tasty cinnamon rolls. Especially if rather than instantly falling into a dream you set them up so it goes into effect the next time they rest.
No, crushed bones (innocent or not) will not work as a flour substitute. Most likely the pies are mincemeat because traditional mincemeat contains... minced meat.
I think you have to be careful with "tricking" parties. Part of the fun of the pies is getting the hint something is wrong, otherwise it's less a creepy reveal and more of a "gotcha!" That said, I don't see any reason why you couldn't go with something other than mincemeat...meat is just more gruesome!
Meat is by far more creepy. Nobody cares if it's fruit or plain bread. But when there is the hint that the pies are made from the meat of children, then you have a despicable villain.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
Actually mincemeat isn't meat at all. traditionally mincemeat pies are a mixture of currants, raisins, sugar, apples, candied citrus peel, spices, and suet.
Also in Curse of strahd it specifically says that they added the ground bones to the flour and ate the meat of the children themselves. Thats why the Windmill is called Old Bonegrinder. I don't think they meant it as a flour replacement but more of an additive or filler. But It isn't the meat of the children at all.
Mincemeat is anything but meat. I remember my horror in high school when I had to clean one of those up in the grocery store after someone knocked a gallon jar off the top shelf. I thought it would be some kind of meat, but no... it's not... but it smelled worse...
And yes, one would think that hags would actually use the organic components and not fruits of all kinds. I think a good Louisiana Meat Pie would be the ticket... Soylent Green style...
But why not have sugary confectionaries with blood-sugar mixed in. Just finding some way to corrupt any kind of good pasty should work. Especially once people realize what they've been eating. I think the goal at that point would be personal horror and gruesome delight on the part of the hags.
Mincemeat can contain meat ( there are different kinds of mincemeat ) and traditionally did in the 18th and 19th centuries, but it's unlikely that commercial supermarket mincemeat still contains any meat. See here:) In any case, suet is hard beef kidney fat. However I think it unlikely that a hag is popping down to the shops to pick up a jar - likely is making her own. Meat could absolutely be included in her recipe - in fact likely is given the scenario.
You can have non-flour additives to any bread dough, to a limit of about 20% by weight, although you still need mostly high protein flour to form the structural gluten in the bread. Cracked grains and seeds are common; I like to add cornmeal to breads meant to be heavy soup or stew dipping breads. You could probably get away with bone meal in bread.
As noted, the reveal here is tricky to handle, depending on what you/she want to accomplish with it.
I'd also recommend spending an hour or two watching Sweeny Todd :D
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To the OP, the reason there are no historical accounts of bonemeal being worked into pastry is because bonemeal is incredibly toxic when inhaled.
This is very true. If I recall correctly, there is an episode of Bones which touches on that ( black market bone grafts ). Of course, a Hag could be coincidentally immune to this.
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To the OP, the reason there are no historical accounts of bonemeal being worked into pastry is because bonemeal is incredibly toxic when inhaled.
This is very true. If I recall correctly, there is an episode of Bones which touches on that ( black market bone grafts ). Of course, a Hag could be coincidentally immune to this.
Oh sure, but real people in real history were not. Even butchers and hunters and most farmers were aware of the toxicity since bone dust spoils meat faster.
There's a reason I specified 'tradition' mincemeat; modern supermarket mincemeat does not contain meat. Sorry for not being more specific.
As far as ground bone goes, bone meal is sometimes used as a supplement for animal feed, or in fertilizer, but it's not flour-like since bone meal is normally mixed with leftover meat (or rather, they just grind all the slaughterhouse leftovers together).
If you want an alternative, I suggest the hag is boiling down the bones to make gelatin, with the final product being aspics or jellies.
My guess would be that whoever wrote it originally didn’t know there was no meat in mincemeat, and was thinking of something like Titus Andronicus, feeding people to other people. Or maybe they did, and just liked how the name is evocative, and a bit of a clue that maybe something is going on.
And to answer the original question, if you accept that this bone meal works as a flour replacement or supplement (because magic) then it seems perfectly reasonable to use it in any baked good containing flour. And if you have a character who is gluten-free, they’ll really get to lord it over everyone else when they didn’t eat the stuff.
If you want an alternative, I suggest the hag is boiling down the bones to make gelatin, with the final product being aspics or jellies.
"Would you like some fresh grape jelly to spread on your pastie dearie?" bleh! Especially if the druids poisoned the fruit and not just the wine.
You know what's really gruesome? Boiling down bones to make gelatin would both kill any micro-organisms and denature most proteins ( thus reducing or eliminating the chance of prion based diseases ), so it would be perfectly edible and healthy gelatin - despite it's source :p
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The description of the baking cabinet (area O1) mentions both flour and powdered bone (also locks of hair with no identified purpose); while it's clear the powdered bone is important, it's not actually replacing the flour because there's still flour in the cabinet.
The description of the baking cabinet (area O1) mentions both flour and powdered bone (also locks of hair with no identified purpose); while it's clear the powdered bone is important, it's not actually replacing the flour because there's still flour in the cabinet.
It could not replace the entire volume of flour, only some of it. The same way you replace some of the flour with coco powder to make chocolate pie crusts.
I really appreciate everyone's replies. I feel like I learned a ton about meat and bone and gelatin. and I feel like I'm pretty confident in my plans for this hag. I think That a little powdered bone as an additive is exactly what the original Pastries were about but should I want to also add in some meat or just use the gelatin of innocent children I have plenty of information to do just that!
If you want an alternative, I suggest the hag is boiling down the bones to make gelatin, with the final product being aspics or jellies.
"Would you like some fresh grape jelly to spread on your pastie dearie?" bleh! Especially if the druids poisoned the fruit and not just the wine.
You know what's really gruesome? Boiling down bones to make gelatin would both kill any micro-organisms and denature most proteins ( thus reducing or eliminating the chance of prion based diseases ), so it would be perfectly edible and healthy gelatin - despite it's source :p
As I make bone broth regularly for my bride as part of her supplement plan... I can't imagine how long it would take to boil it down enough to make gelatin. Maybe you just start with less water... but yeah, very healthy for you...
As I make bone broth regularly for my bride as part of her supplement plan... I can't imagine how long it would take to boil it down enough to make gelatin. Maybe you just start with less water... but yeah, very healthy for you...
You've almost certainly got gelatin already in the broth you make, the hard part is separating it from the other meat products (aspics much easier to make than jellies for that reason).
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So I'm planning an encounter with a hag who is corrupting a town through dream pastries, similar to the coven in strahd. However after doing plenty of reading on hags and the pastries themselves I notice they are described consistently as the same little pies. It got me wondering why?
As I understand the pastries work by using the crushed bones of the innocent as a partial flour replacement( which seems like something that would maybe work irl in a pastry but its hard to find sources of people actually using bone meal in bread and baked goods). So reasonably in a world where this works why would the Dream Pastries need to be mince pies? Isn't it reasonable to assume they could be any baked good using flour? Honestly in my mind a particularly industrious Hag could make a whole bakery with everything from cookies and cake and pies to puff pastries and rolls and loaves of dream bread. She could even make regular baked goods as well and specifically be more choosy with who she makes an addict of.
I also think this would be good for tricking seasoned players who have encountered the standard Dream Pastries before. If they expect them to look like little mincemeat pies they aren't going to be suspicious of the town baker and her wondrously tasty cinnamon rolls. Especially if rather than instantly falling into a dream you set them up so it goes into effect the next time they rest.
Just wondering what other Dm's think of this.
No, crushed bones (innocent or not) will not work as a flour substitute. Most likely the pies are mincemeat because traditional mincemeat contains... minced meat.
I think you have to be careful with "tricking" parties. Part of the fun of the pies is getting the hint something is wrong, otherwise it's less a creepy reveal and more of a "gotcha!" That said, I don't see any reason why you couldn't go with something other than mincemeat...meat is just more gruesome!
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club
Meat is by far more creepy. Nobody cares if it's fruit or plain bread. But when there is the hint that the pies are made from the meat of children, then you have a despicable villain.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Actually mincemeat isn't meat at all. traditionally mincemeat pies are a mixture of currants, raisins, sugar, apples, candied citrus peel, spices, and suet.
Also in Curse of strahd it specifically says that they added the ground bones to the flour and ate the meat of the children themselves. Thats why the Windmill is called Old Bonegrinder. I don't think they meant it as a flour replacement but more of an additive or filler. But It isn't the meat of the children at all.
Mincemeat is anything but meat. I remember my horror in high school when I had to clean one of those up in the grocery store after someone knocked a gallon jar off the top shelf. I thought it would be some kind of meat, but no... it's not... but it smelled worse...
And yes, one would think that hags would actually use the organic components and not fruits of all kinds. I think a good Louisiana Meat Pie would be the ticket... Soylent Green style...
But why not have sugary confectionaries with blood-sugar mixed in. Just finding some way to corrupt any kind of good pasty should work. Especially once people realize what they've been eating. I think the goal at that point would be personal horror and gruesome delight on the part of the hags.
Sorry - but the cook in me is rebelling :D
Mincemeat can contain meat ( there are different kinds of mincemeat ) and traditionally did in the 18th and 19th centuries, but it's unlikely that commercial supermarket mincemeat still contains any meat. See here :) In any case, suet is hard beef kidney fat. However I think it unlikely that a hag is popping down to the shops to pick up a jar - likely is making her own. Meat could absolutely be included in her recipe - in fact likely is given the scenario.
You can have non-flour additives to any bread dough, to a limit of about 20% by weight, although you still need mostly high protein flour to form the structural gluten in the bread. Cracked grains and seeds are common; I like to add cornmeal to breads meant to be heavy soup or stew dipping breads. You could probably get away with bone meal in bread.
As noted, the reveal here is tricky to handle, depending on what you/she want to accomplish with it.
I'd also recommend spending an hour or two watching Sweeny Todd :D
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
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As a former caterer, I was about to type the stuff that Vedexent just did, but they beat me to it.
To the OP, the reason there are no historical accounts af bonemeal being worked into pastry is because bonemeal is incredibly toxic when inhaled.
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This is very true. If I recall correctly, there is an episode of Bones which touches on that ( black market bone grafts ). Of course, a Hag could be coincidentally immune to this.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
Oh sure, but real people in real history were not. Even butchers and hunters and most farmers were aware of the toxicity since bone dust spoils meat faster.
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There's a reason I specified 'tradition' mincemeat; modern supermarket mincemeat does not contain meat. Sorry for not being more specific.
As far as ground bone goes, bone meal is sometimes used as a supplement for animal feed, or in fertilizer, but it's not flour-like since bone meal is normally mixed with leftover meat (or rather, they just grind all the slaughterhouse leftovers together).
If you want an alternative, I suggest the hag is boiling down the bones to make gelatin, with the final product being aspics or jellies.
"Would you like some fresh grape jelly to spread on your pastie dearie?" bleh! Especially if the druids poisoned the fruit and not just the wine.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Meat flavored gelatin (or aspic) was traditionally poured into a meat pie as part of the filling.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
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My guess would be that whoever wrote it originally didn’t know there was no meat in mincemeat, and was thinking of something like Titus Andronicus, feeding people to other people. Or maybe they did, and just liked how the name is evocative, and a bit of a clue that maybe something is going on.
And to answer the original question, if you accept that this bone meal works as a flour replacement or supplement (because magic) then it seems perfectly reasonable to use it in any baked good containing flour.
And if you have a character who is gluten-free, they’ll really get to lord it over everyone else when they didn’t eat the stuff.
You know what's really gruesome? Boiling down bones to make gelatin would both kill any micro-organisms and denature most proteins ( thus reducing or eliminating the chance of prion based diseases ), so it would be perfectly edible and healthy gelatin - despite it's source :p
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
The description of the baking cabinet (area O1) mentions both flour and powdered bone (also locks of hair with no identified purpose); while it's clear the powdered bone is important, it's not actually replacing the flour because there's still flour in the cabinet.
It could not replace the entire volume of flour, only some of it. The same way you replace some of the flour with coco powder to make chocolate pie crusts.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
I really appreciate everyone's replies. I feel like I learned a ton about meat and bone and gelatin. and I feel like I'm pretty confident in my plans for this hag. I think That a little powdered bone as an additive is exactly what the original Pastries were about but should I want to also add in some meat or just use the gelatin of innocent children I have plenty of information to do just that!
As I make bone broth regularly for my bride as part of her supplement plan... I can't imagine how long it would take to boil it down enough to make gelatin. Maybe you just start with less water... but yeah, very healthy for you...
You've almost certainly got gelatin already in the broth you make, the hard part is separating it from the other meat products (aspics much easier to make than jellies for that reason).