Need input on characters trying to "Break the game", theyre following the rules far as I can tell. But, for example, One of my players has an AC of 20 and he is only Lv.5. So I can hardly ever make a challenging encounter cause everything is based on a D20 to hit, so he almost never gets hit. He says his armor class is 20 cause his scale mail gives him 14+ dex mod (2)+ wielding a shield (4). So how do you even ever hit a character with an AC above 20?
A shield only provides a +2 AC. So his character should only have an AC of 18.
Also, whatever hit modifier the monster has gets added to their d20 roll to hit the PC. For example, a Flesh Golem has a Slam attack with a +7 to hit, so you only need to roll a 13 or higher for that monster to hit a PC with an AC of 20.
So how do you even ever hit a character with an AC above 20?
Spells that require PCs to make saving throws to see if they avoid the effects (especially in an ability score they dumped). The player rolls a D20 and adds their "saving throw modifier," and sees if the total is at least as high as the caster's "spell save DC." (I believe a tie goes to the player that rolled the d20, right? Someone correct me if I'm wrong please!)
Grappling monsters or traps that reduce speed to 0.
Also, IamSposta is right about the shield being only +2, unless it's magic or something. He's also correct about the modifiers added to the d20 roll--that's SUPER important, and players get to add bonuses to their d20 rolls too. The dndbeyond sheets calculate how much if they "wield" their weapons.
Way to search for ways to challenge your players--being invincible isn't fun for long!
You're the DM, you should have access to the character sheets to check from where the numbers are coming. Why his shield gives 4 AC instead of 2? It sounds you don't have much awareness of their sheets when you write "he says that...". I don't usually controll their numbers, but if there is something fishy I always double check, I some times discover they calculated something wrong.
Then you have plenty of options for level 5, there are lot of enemies with +7 attack, so you will hit him with 13 or higher result (11 if you fix the AC of the shield). Then you have the alternative of using spells, you have low level options that use saving throws instead of attack.
So far everyone here has mostly talked about either what non-to-hit-roll options (like saving throws, heat metal) you have, or the fact that the shield should only be +2. I have a different concern, based on the thread title about "characters trying to be OP" and your comment about what "he says" his AC should be. This suggests to me a much more serious problem than that the AC is 20 (easily solvable as a DM), or that he made a miscalculation. If this is a player who is trying to cheat and say his character is more powerful than the game says it is, you have a problem player and you need to take care of this ASAP. If he's going to cheat about his AC (assuming that he is with the "+4" shield bonus he told you he has), then he'll cheat with other things (like telling you what his DEX saving throw bonus is and so forth).
If I'm right in my deduction, and this player is cheating with his character, then you need to handle this very carefully, and out of character, not in character. But I won't say anymore about that, until we know what is going on. Is he cheating, just mistaken, or did you give him a +2 magic shield or something? We need to know more about it before we can really help you.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I had been giving the player that it was a simple mistake caused by a lack of familiarity with the rules as opposed to intentional cheating.
A mistake caused by lack of clarity or knowledge is easily fixable. Make sure that you reread chapters 7, 9, and 10 of the PHB or Basic Rules (whichever you are using), that will help with a lot of that. Having the players double check on specific info for their chosen equipment in chapter 5, and their specific Races and Classes in chapters 2 & 3 will also help. They should be responsible for at least knowing how their own PCs work.
If it’s intentional cheating, I would follow BioWizard’s advice.
As Sardonicmonkey said AC20 at level 5 is not excessive, depending how generous you are with rewards heavy armor players might be looking at getting plate around then which would give them 20 AC with a shield. A shield with splint or half plate (if they have +2 Dex) will give an AC of 19 which could be boosted to 20 by a forge cleric feature or a magic item (again depending how generous you are with rewards)
If a player concentrates on making one aspect of their character very strong, for example AC it weakens other parts. Carrying a shield increases your AC but it prevents you using a two handed weapon or two weapon fighting reducing the damage that the monsters take so they might have less chance to hit but will have more chances to hit because they survive more rounds.
Having said that some characters are more powerful than others, if all the players create optimised characters it is not really an issue you can just up the difficulty of the encounters to a level that will challenge them. The problem comes if some players optimise there characters and others do not there is a risk that the optimised characters dominate the group. Optimised characters are often called min-max characters because in general they dump the attibutes that are not core to their character, an optimised barbarian might have -1 to wis, cha and int making them vulnerable to saves in these abilities. You can also provide circumstances where they are encouraged to do ability checks using their weaker scores ("As the last enemy is killed as well as their bodies there is a desk and a bookshelf in the room that migh contain the information you are after, you can here a large number of people heading down the corridor and feel you only have time to investigate one item each and make your escape before they arrive.")
Intelligent enemies should act intelligently, if a character is wearing plate and a shield it is going to be hard to hit them with an attack, as well as the spell casters using "save" spells martial characters can target the squishier targets (another intelligent approach is they concentrate on the the squishy characters first (and possibly healers) but this could upset the players of these characters who consistently get picked on)
Make sure you understand the basic rules and anything specific to your player characters and that you players are following them as well and you should be ablew to have a game enjoyable for all.
My tip is to give the non-optimized players magic items to equal them out with the minmaxers, and then balance the game expecting that stuff. Although as said earlier, saving throws are a good idea.
Wouldn’t be surprised though if he is trying to cheat with shields.
I am pretty hesitant to say a character with scale mail and shield is “optimising his character” if we are as correct as we think we are and the player has an AC of 18 not 20 at level 5 but even if we are wrong
wood elf fighter with point buy 14 in dex, scale mail, a shield, defensive fighting style, and the medium Armor master feat at level 5 has a 20 AC - that’s as basic as D&D gets with almost no min maxing and same result (you could arguing the feat is optimising but 2 points in dex does the same thing)
as far as I can tell your player has - checks notes - played D&D and has been labelled a min maxer, Cheater, someone who hasn’t read the rules properly, someone meta gaming and breaking the game for building a character with a good AC which is D&D 101
First off WOW! Thanks everyone for the feedback! I didn’t expect so much input so quickly, great community here. So here’s what I know:
now that I figured out how to add characters to my campaign I can see their sheets now much easier. I don’t think the player in question was trying to cheat, I think he just misinterpreted his shield properties. We are all new to the game, it’s our first campaign.
as a new DM I’m still learning the ropes of all the mechanics of the game, so I think adding the hit modifiers is what I was looking for as far as a solution to the problem.
As a DM I really want to not be a “vengeful” DM but keep the game fun, I haven’t overtly said no to better gear at merchants, but I have been keeping the non quest rewards as under 50gp in value so as not to give too much too quickly. My big fear is giving up too much in the way of weapons and items and then the books encounters become boring and uninteresting. So it’s good to know I didn’t give too much by letting them buy a shield and the scale mail.
and lastly, I suppose I need to look at tweaking the book encounters to better create challenging and fun encounters for the party, not just use what’s in the book.
once again thanks everybody for the input, helps a lot to know the community is so active and responsive.
That is good information. So you are all new, and he just miscalculated. Easy fix.
Regarding merchants: You can definitely increase the game's difficulty by simply not offering most magic items or even powerful non-magic items (like plate mail) for sale at the typical vendors. Simple example: Most of the powerful rez spells require diamonds of some high value and these diamonds are consumed upon casting. You can prevent the players from having easy access to rez by simply making the gem market anemic... If no one has diamonds for sale, then the only way to get "rez diamonds" is to find them in a dungeon -- and those are the ones you place there.
Also, in terms of buying -- I give merchants a cap of gp. If the players only sell and don't buy from them, eventually the merchant will say he or she doesn't have any more ready cash -- come back in a few days (weeks, months, whatever you want).
The point here is that if they can just swap gold for any item they want and vice versa, that will mean they have their heart's desire of magic and non-magic items at all times, and it will be increasingly difficult to challenge them.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
If you haven't already, it can be fun to give out utility magic items, like sending stones (sort of walkie talkies), a folding boat, underwater breathing stuff (if you want to take a spin underwater), an immovable rod (I love this one), a robe of useful items, or bags of holding.
They don't generally unbalance combat, but are really fun to use creatively.
Also potions are a good option if you want to try out an effect, but don't want to hand out something permanent of that nature yet.
I'm very late to this party, but what the heck? An AC of 20 isn't broken. Certain race/class combos can easily get an AC of 20 at level 1. Here is a Warforged Fighter I made using only official rules: Tanky Bro's Character Sheet - D&D Beyond (dndbeyond.com)
Edit to say, that there are ways to overcome obstacles like this. Yes, it can suck, but that’s where being a creative DM comes in. That’s not say that I’m a great or creative DM, I’m saying this from player’s perspective who has encountered DMs that can counter such things. Finally, if a player is actually cheating or simply making a mistake with the rules, let them know, tactfully of course.
We are all new to the game, it’s our first campaign.
…
As a DM I really want to not be a “vengeful” DM but keep the game fun,
Welcome to the hobby!We hope you'll be here for a long time.
As a GM, you are correct that your role is not to be vengeful. Your role is to be a champion of the characters. Challenge them, but also give them changes to shine.
If a player has made a character with high AC then give them a small horde of enemies failing to land hits, so the player can feel their charcater is a badass, standing firm, taking the attacks that would otherwise be hurting their friends.
We are all new to the game, it’s our first campaign.
…
As a DM I really want to not be a “vengeful” DM but keep the game fun,
Welcome to the hobby!We hope you'll be here for a long time.
As a GM, you are correct that your role is not to be vengeful. Your role is to be a champion of the characters. Challenge them, but also give them changes to shine.
If a player has made a character with high AC then give them a small horde of enemies failing to land hits, so the player can feel their charcater is a badass, standing firm, taking the attacks that would otherwise be hurting their friends.
This. ^
Just design encounters and monsters specifically made to challenge this PC, while allowing their high AC to still be an advantage so they can feel cool without completely outshining everyone else. And this is more work to adjust the combats, but sadly it's necessary here if you want the players - or more specifically this player - to feel challenged
Also, don't forget that the odds of hitting a PC with a high AC can be increased simply by sheer number of enemies. An enemy that can gain advantage to attack also increases the odds.
Consider simple wolves that have Pack Tactics (advantage to hit if next to an ally). Even if they have to roll, say 15+ on a d20, simple having four or five attack the PC means there is a very good chance that at least one will hit every round.
A paladin with full plate and a shield will have an AC of 20 without any optimization or magic items. At level 5, any mundane items are IMO very much a fair assumption to have. Full plates are ridiculously and strangely expensive. Some weird "pseudo-historical accuracy"-thing that is very much absent in the general economy. The cost of full plate compared to the item's power level is amazingly wonky IMO. 😅 But that just results in full plate being a reward etc more often than being purchased.
The point is, 20 AC is not much at all.
A bladesinger with good stats will fly far past 20 very quickly. But that doesn't mean bladesingers are very tough. A well placed save spell and they are down.
Need input on characters trying to "Break the game", theyre following the rules far as I can tell. But, for example, One of my players has an AC of 20 and he is only Lv.5. So I can hardly ever make a challenging encounter cause everything is based on a D20 to hit, so he almost never gets hit. He says his armor class is 20 cause his scale mail gives him 14+ dex mod (2)+ wielding a shield (4). So how do you even ever hit a character with an AC above 20?
A shield only provides a +2 AC. So his character should only have an AC of 18.
Also, whatever hit modifier the monster has gets added to their d20 roll to hit the PC. For example, a Flesh Golem has a Slam attack with a +7 to hit, so you only need to roll a 13 or higher for that monster to hit a PC with an AC of 20.
I hope that helps.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Spells that require PCs to make saving throws to see if they avoid the effects (especially in an ability score they dumped). The player rolls a D20 and adds their "saving throw modifier," and sees if the total is at least as high as the caster's "spell save DC." (I believe a tie goes to the player that rolled the d20, right? Someone correct me if I'm wrong please!)
Grappling monsters or traps that reduce speed to 0.
Also, IamSposta is right about the shield being only +2, unless it's magic or something. He's also correct about the modifiers added to the d20 roll--that's SUPER important, and players get to add bonuses to their d20 rolls too. The dndbeyond sheets calculate how much if they "wield" their weapons.
Way to search for ways to challenge your players--being invincible isn't fun for long!
I don’t think wearing armour and a shield counts as breaking the game or being OP. And 20 is not ridiculous for level 5
A tortle with a shield in any class at level 1 has an AC of 19 (23 when in their shell)
Make use of the disadvantages of his armour, eg. sleeping, swimming. Heat Metal is a nice spell ...
playing since 1986
You're the DM, you should have access to the character sheets to check from where the numbers are coming. Why his shield gives 4 AC instead of 2? It sounds you don't have much awareness of their sheets when you write "he says that...". I don't usually controll their numbers, but if there is something fishy I always double check, I some times discover they calculated something wrong.
Then you have plenty of options for level 5, there are lot of enemies with +7 attack, so you will hit him with 13 or higher result (11 if you fix the AC of the shield). Then you have the alternative of using spells, you have low level options that use saving throws instead of attack.
So far everyone here has mostly talked about either what non-to-hit-roll options (like saving throws, heat metal) you have, or the fact that the shield should only be +2. I have a different concern, based on the thread title about "characters trying to be OP" and your comment about what "he says" his AC should be. This suggests to me a much more serious problem than that the AC is 20 (easily solvable as a DM), or that he made a miscalculation. If this is a player who is trying to cheat and say his character is more powerful than the game says it is, you have a problem player and you need to take care of this ASAP. If he's going to cheat about his AC (assuming that he is with the "+4" shield bonus he told you he has), then he'll cheat with other things (like telling you what his DEX saving throw bonus is and so forth).
If I'm right in my deduction, and this player is cheating with his character, then you need to handle this very carefully, and out of character, not in character. But I won't say anymore about that, until we know what is going on. Is he cheating, just mistaken, or did you give him a +2 magic shield or something? We need to know more about it before we can really help you.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I had been giving the player that it was a simple mistake caused by a lack of familiarity with the rules as opposed to intentional cheating.
A mistake caused by lack of clarity or knowledge is easily fixable. Make sure that you reread chapters 7, 9, and 10 of the PHB or Basic Rules (whichever you are using), that will help with a lot of that. Having the players double check on specific info for their chosen equipment in chapter 5, and their specific Races and Classes in chapters 2 & 3 will also help. They should be responsible for at least knowing how their own PCs work.
If it’s intentional cheating, I would follow BioWizard’s advice.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
As Sardonicmonkey said AC20 at level 5 is not excessive, depending how generous you are with rewards heavy armor players might be looking at getting plate around then which would give them 20 AC with a shield. A shield with splint or half plate (if they have +2 Dex) will give an AC of 19 which could be boosted to 20 by a forge cleric feature or a magic item (again depending how generous you are with rewards)
If a player concentrates on making one aspect of their character very strong, for example AC it weakens other parts. Carrying a shield increases your AC but it prevents you using a two handed weapon or two weapon fighting reducing the damage that the monsters take so they might have less chance to hit but will have more chances to hit because they survive more rounds.
Having said that some characters are more powerful than others, if all the players create optimised characters it is not really an issue you can just up the difficulty of the encounters to a level that will challenge them. The problem comes if some players optimise there characters and others do not there is a risk that the optimised characters dominate the group. Optimised characters are often called min-max characters because in general they dump the attibutes that are not core to their character, an optimised barbarian might have -1 to wis, cha and int making them vulnerable to saves in these abilities. You can also provide circumstances where they are encouraged to do ability checks using their weaker scores ("As the last enemy is killed as well as their bodies there is a desk and a bookshelf in the room that migh contain the information you are after, you can here a large number of people heading down the corridor and feel you only have time to investigate one item each and make your escape before they arrive.")
Intelligent enemies should act intelligently, if a character is wearing plate and a shield it is going to be hard to hit them with an attack, as well as the spell casters using "save" spells martial characters can target the squishier targets (another intelligent approach is they concentrate on the the squishy characters first (and possibly healers) but this could upset the players of these characters who consistently get picked on)
Make sure you understand the basic rules and anything specific to your player characters and that you players are following them as well and you should be ablew to have a game enjoyable for all.
having enemies act intelligently
My tip is to give the non-optimized players magic items to equal them out with the minmaxers, and then balance the game expecting that stuff. Although as said earlier, saving throws are a good idea.
Wouldn’t be surprised though if he is trying to cheat with shields.
I am pretty hesitant to say a character with scale mail and shield is “optimising his character” if we are as correct as we think we are and the player has an AC of 18 not 20 at level 5 but even if we are wrong
wood elf fighter with point buy 14 in dex, scale mail, a shield, defensive fighting style, and the medium Armor master feat at level 5 has a 20 AC - that’s as basic as D&D gets with almost no min maxing and same result (you could arguing the feat is optimising but 2 points in dex does the same thing)
as far as I can tell your player has - checks notes - played D&D and has been labelled a min maxer, Cheater, someone who hasn’t read the rules properly, someone meta gaming and breaking the game for building a character with a good AC which is D&D 101
First off WOW! Thanks everyone for the feedback! I didn’t expect so much input so quickly, great community here. So here’s what I know:
now that I figured out how to add characters to my campaign I can see their sheets now much easier. I don’t think the player in question was trying to cheat, I think he just misinterpreted his shield properties. We are all new to the game, it’s our first campaign.
as a new DM I’m still learning the ropes of all the mechanics of the game, so I think adding the hit modifiers is what I was looking for as far as a solution to the problem.
As a DM I really want to not be a “vengeful” DM but keep the game fun, I haven’t overtly said no to better gear at merchants, but I have been keeping the non quest rewards as under 50gp in value so as not to give too much too quickly. My big fear is giving up too much in the way of weapons and items and then the books encounters become boring and uninteresting. So it’s good to know I didn’t give too much by letting them buy a shield and the scale mail.
and lastly, I suppose I need to look at tweaking the book encounters to better create challenging and fun encounters for the party, not just use what’s in the book.
once again thanks everybody for the input, helps a lot to know the community is so active and responsive.
That is good information. So you are all new, and he just miscalculated. Easy fix.
Regarding merchants: You can definitely increase the game's difficulty by simply not offering most magic items or even powerful non-magic items (like plate mail) for sale at the typical vendors. Simple example: Most of the powerful rez spells require diamonds of some high value and these diamonds are consumed upon casting. You can prevent the players from having easy access to rez by simply making the gem market anemic... If no one has diamonds for sale, then the only way to get "rez diamonds" is to find them in a dungeon -- and those are the ones you place there.
Also, in terms of buying -- I give merchants a cap of gp. If the players only sell and don't buy from them, eventually the merchant will say he or she doesn't have any more ready cash -- come back in a few days (weeks, months, whatever you want).
The point here is that if they can just swap gold for any item they want and vice versa, that will mean they have their heart's desire of magic and non-magic items at all times, and it will be increasingly difficult to challenge them.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
If you haven't already, it can be fun to give out utility magic items, like sending stones (sort of walkie talkies), a folding boat, underwater breathing stuff (if you want to take a spin underwater), an immovable rod (I love this one), a robe of useful items, or bags of holding.
They don't generally unbalance combat, but are really fun to use creatively.
Also potions are a good option if you want to try out an effect, but don't want to hand out something permanent of that nature yet.
I agree on potions. Even if they are OP, they only last a short time. Spell scrolls, similarly.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I'm very late to this party, but what the heck? An AC of 20 isn't broken. Certain race/class combos can easily get an AC of 20 at level 1. Here is a Warforged Fighter I made using only official rules: Tanky Bro's Character Sheet - D&D Beyond (dndbeyond.com)
Edit to say, that there are ways to overcome obstacles like this. Yes, it can suck, but that’s where being a creative DM comes in. That’s not say that I’m a great or creative DM, I’m saying this from player’s perspective who has encountered DMs that can counter such things.
Finally, if a player is actually cheating or simply making a mistake with the rules, let them know, tactfully of course.
Welcome to the hobby! We hope you'll be here for a long time.
As a GM, you are correct that your role is not to be vengeful. Your role is to be a champion of the characters. Challenge them, but also give them changes to shine.
If a player has made a character with high AC then give them a small horde of enemies failing to land hits, so the player can feel their charcater is a badass, standing firm, taking the attacks that would otherwise be hurting their friends.
This. ^
Just design encounters and monsters specifically made to challenge this PC, while allowing their high AC to still be an advantage so they can feel cool without completely outshining everyone else. And this is more work to adjust the combats, but sadly it's necessary here if you want the players - or more specifically this player - to feel challenged
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explain
HERE.Also, don't forget that the odds of hitting a PC with a high AC can be increased simply by sheer number of enemies. An enemy that can gain advantage to attack also increases the odds.
Consider simple wolves that have Pack Tactics (advantage to hit if next to an ally). Even if they have to roll, say 15+ on a d20, simple having four or five attack the PC means there is a very good chance that at least one will hit every round.
A paladin with full plate and a shield will have an AC of 20 without any optimization or magic items. At level 5, any mundane items are IMO very much a fair assumption to have. Full plates are ridiculously and strangely expensive. Some weird "pseudo-historical accuracy"-thing that is very much absent in the general economy. The cost of full plate compared to the item's power level is amazingly wonky IMO. 😅 But that just results in full plate being a reward etc more often than being purchased.
The point is, 20 AC is not much at all.
A bladesinger with good stats will fly far past 20 very quickly. But that doesn't mean bladesingers are very tough. A well placed save spell and they are down.
Finland GMT/UTC +2