Would a 15 foot cone or a 15 or 30 foot line of effect be too much for a cantrip? Since it would potentially affect multiple creatures the damage would be capped at a d6 but I'm wondering if either of those AOE's would be appropriate or too much. Thoughts?
The only aoe cantrips are a 5ft radius around the caster and they risky but deal good damage.This is nowhere near as risky and more damaging so it sounds like your making a 1st level spell.
I would argue for any AOE cantrip it should easily be locked at a d4 dice. D6 seems too powerful. The AOE shouldn't be too big either. I think a 30 foot line should maybe be reduced to 20, and a 15 foot long cone should maybe be reduced to 10.
The only aoe cantrips are a 5ft radius around the caster and they risky but deal good damage.This is nowhere near as risky and more damaging so it sounds like your making a 1st level spell.
Would a 15 foot cone or a 15 or 30 foot line of effect be too much for a cantrip? Since it would potentially affect multiple creatures the damage would be capped at a d6 but I'm wondering if either of those AOE's would be appropriate or too much. Thoughts?
I could (maybe) see (at most) a 10-foot cone or a 15-foot line with one of the following options:
with with d4s for damage and (at most) a (very) minor secondary effect (like maybe disarmed).
I might possibly consider (maybe) a d6 damage die and absolutely no secondary effect whatsoever.
Or (perhaps) have the die size increase instead of the dice count kinda like how Martial Arts scales (d6 @ 1st->d8 @ 5th->d10 @ 11th->d12 @ 17th) and a slightly better secondary (like pushed 5-10 feet).
At a 10 ft cone they Have to already be right up on you and you’re gonna get at most 3 of them if you’re lucky. (A 15 ft line is even less likely to hit more than 1 at a time unless you’ve extremely lucky.) So as long as it’s around par with sword burst crossed with poison spray and the aforementioned acid splash, it shouldn’t be very out of balance, if at all.
The reason I thought it would be ok is simple square footage. 5 feet around the caster, assuming the casters square is included, is 225 ft^2. Essentially it creates a 15ftx15ft block. A 15 foot cone is only 150 square feet, 5 feet by 15 feet plus 5 feet by 10 feet plus 5 feet by 5 feet. A 30 foot line is also 150 square feet. This also works out simply as grid squares, the 5 feet around the caster effects 8 or 9 squares, depending if the casters square is considered in the AOE, a 15 foot cone would be 6 grid squares as would a 30 foot line.
It’s implied if you imagine a grid instead of sq ft (at least for me). So “within 5 feet” of the caster hits 8 5x5 blocks on a 2d plane (or potentially 26 5x5x5 blocks in a 3D environment). But every single one of the creatures in each of those blocks is in melee with the caster at that point. Like, that caster is hella stuck-in (where they most likely don’t want to be). So any “within 5 feet” spell, especially a cantrip, is a caster’s “Not in the face! Not in the face!” emergency glass breaker.
Conversely, a 15 ft cone aimed horizontally would hit up to 6 blocks in a 2d scenario (15 in 3d), or aimed vertically (like blasting down on enemies) could encompass 9 blocks at its widest point. On paper that seems fine until you realize two things:
Cones are the most abusable AoE in D&D. they cover the most area (2d), and the highest volume (3d) of any AoE, they are very "aimable" in any direction, they are the most versatile if you can game the environment at all. (If you can do a flyover with a 15-foot cone you could hit up to 9 5x5 blocks from outside of melee reach.) Cones are generally the best AoE going.
Any creatures that are 15 feet away are most likely not in melee with the caster unless they are Huge or larger. So that caster could ziggy up, hit ‘em with it, and then scarper without risking anything from an Opportunity Attack. So a 15-foot cone takes it from a defensive damage dealer to an offensive attack. And as a cantrip that would be super spammable. Like the D&D version of a shotgun. (You know how in video games the shotgun ammo is always harder to grab then most of the other types of ammo? This 👆 is why.)
Whereas, a 10-foot cone is gonna hit at most 3 blocks horizontally, 4 vertically aimed down, or 5 total in a 3d environment. With such a small footprint it wouldn't hit may creatures at a time. In addition, anyone with a reach weapon (like a whip) is in melee with that caster and can make an OA if they try to burn-an’-boogie.
And a 15-foot line can only ever hit at most 3 grid blocks. That’s it. That’s why most players go for Fireball (or even Conjure Barrage) over Lightning Bolt. Even covering 100 5x5 grid blocks, Lightning Bolt is still most commonly used against single targets, because getting more than 2-3 people to stand in a line is hard enough IR, let alone in D&D.
So a 10-foot cone that does 1-4 d4 and maybe disarms opponents who fail their saves is balanced for a cantrip. That’s also why a 15-foot line that does 1-4 d6 and pushes target’s back 5 ft on a failed save might also still be in Cantrip territory. But a 15-foot cone that does between 1-4 d6 would be objectively more powerful than a leveled spell like Burning Hands.
Would a 15 foot cone or a 15 or 30 foot line of effect be too much for a cantrip? Since it would potentially affect multiple creatures the damage would be capped at a d6 but I'm wondering if either of those AOE's would be appropriate or too much. Thoughts?
The only aoe cantrips are a 5ft radius around the caster and they risky but deal good damage.This is nowhere near as risky and more damaging so it sounds like your making a 1st level spell.
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I would argue for any AOE cantrip it should easily be locked at a d4 dice. D6 seems too powerful. The AOE shouldn't be too big either. I think a 30 foot line should maybe be reduced to 20, and a 15 foot long cone should maybe be reduced to 10.
Don’t forget acid splash.
I could (maybe) see (at most) a 10-foot cone or a 15-foot line with one of the following options:
At a 10 ft cone they Have to already be right up on you and you’re gonna get at most 3 of them if you’re lucky. (A 15 ft line is even less likely to hit more than 1 at a time unless you’ve extremely lucky.) So as long as it’s around par with sword burst crossed with poison spray and the aforementioned acid splash, it shouldn’t be very out of balance, if at all.
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The reason I thought it would be ok is simple square footage. 5 feet around the caster, assuming the casters square is included, is 225 ft^2. Essentially it creates a 15ftx15ft block. A 15 foot cone is only 150 square feet, 5 feet by 15 feet plus 5 feet by 10 feet plus 5 feet by 5 feet. A 30 foot line is also 150 square feet. This also works out simply as grid squares, the 5 feet around the caster effects 8 or 9 squares, depending if the casters square is considered in the AOE, a 15 foot cone would be 6 grid squares as would a 30 foot line.
It’s implied if you imagine a grid instead of sq ft (at least for me). So “within 5 feet” of the caster hits 8 5x5 blocks on a 2d plane (or potentially 26 5x5x5 blocks in a 3D environment). But every single one of the creatures in each of those blocks is in melee with the caster at that point. Like, that caster is hella stuck-in (where they most likely don’t want to be). So any “within 5 feet” spell, especially a cantrip, is a caster’s “Not in the face! Not in the face!” emergency glass breaker.
Conversely, a 15 ft cone aimed horizontally would hit up to 6 blocks in a 2d scenario (15 in 3d), or aimed vertically (like blasting down on enemies) could encompass 9 blocks at its widest point. On paper that seems fine until you realize two things:
Whereas, a 10-foot cone is gonna hit at most 3 blocks horizontally, 4 vertically aimed down, or 5 total in a 3d environment. With such a small footprint it wouldn't hit may creatures at a time. In addition, anyone with a reach weapon (like a whip) is in melee with that caster and can make an OA if they try to burn-an’-boogie.
And a 15-foot line can only ever hit at most 3 grid blocks. That’s it. That’s why most players go for Fireball (or even Conjure Barrage) over Lightning Bolt. Even covering 100 5x5 grid blocks, Lightning Bolt is still most commonly used against single targets, because getting more than 2-3 people to stand in a line is hard enough IR, let alone in D&D.
So a 10-foot cone that does 1-4 d4 and maybe disarms opponents who fail their saves is balanced for a cantrip. That’s also why a 15-foot line that does 1-4 d6 and pushes target’s back 5 ft on a failed save might also still be in Cantrip territory. But a 15-foot cone that does between 1-4 d6 would be objectively more powerful than a leveled spell like Burning Hands.
Make sense?
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