So, little while back I read an article for a class on mythology pointing out that Loki wasn't the god of fire (a misunderstanding due to the Norse incarnation of fire having similar name), or mischief (totally Marvel comics there), and trying to describe exactly what he was the god of. According to that author, he was the god of a Norse theological concept called 'floki', which is something like 'interconnectedness' in terms of law, emotions, debts and social situations. It was both a good thing and a bad thing. That inspired the following subclass, which I'd like to get feedback on;
Edit: Re-written as a Rogue Archetype, which, on reflection, it should have been to begin with.
The Way of Floki
The Way of Floki uses entanglement, physical or social, as its primary weapon. Every student of the Floki has a Bond to the teacher who taught it to them. It is impossible to know the secrets of this style without being emotionally exposed to one’s instructor, and impossible to understand that knowledge without accepting what’s within that heart. This attachment is both genuine and supernaturally unbreakable.
Net Wielder
As god of entanglement, Loki was the god who created nets, and to honor him, all rogues of the Floki-way learn to use them in combat. You gain proficiency with nets, and you also double your range increments while using them. You may choose to do bludgeoning damage with a net attack equal to 1d4 plus your Dexterity modifier, or throw the net without doing damage. In addition, if throwing a net, you do not suffer the usual limitation imposed by a net to make no other attacks that action.
Invoke the Web
At 3rd level, you have Advantage on any Persuasion, Intimidation, or Deception check made to compel an individual to honor a promise, debt or law, real or concocted.
Solemn Tongue of Extradition
From 9th level onward, the rogue gains advantage on any skill check aimed at exculpation.
Faultless Innocence
At 13th level, as a student of the Floki-way, you have learned to use magical deception and confusion to gain the upper hand in combat. Whenever you roll for Initiative you may elect to impose a penalty to your opponent’s Initiative equal to your rogue level. If this would render their Initiative to less then one, it becomes 1, and that opponent is Stunned for the round. The Stunned condition represents confusion you have sown regarding who initiated hostilities, individuals’ goal in the conflict, or whose side they are on. The DM chooses which, but victims cannot believe the rogue or their allies are at fault. Many opponents, who are likely to be confused as a result, may, at the DM’s discretion, seek to stop fighting.
You may apply this effect a number of times equal to your Proficiency modifier per Long Rest. Opponents immune to illusion effects are not affected by Faultless Innocence.
Heart-Thorn Hand
From 17th level onward, whenever you are targeted by an attack by a humanoid which does not successfully deal damage, you may use your reaction to make an emotional counterattack that instills in your attacker a positive Bond towards you. The context of the Bond, such as respect, admiration, a debt or unexpected love, is determined by the other character's player, or the DM in the case of an NPC. Possessing this Bond does not require the target to end hostilities, but it does stop the character from attempting to kill the rogue or allowing them to be killed if they can help it. This Bond lasts until the end of the encounter unless the controlling player or DM deem otherwise. Opponents immune to Charm effects are unaffected.
If the attacker previously had a positive Bond towards you before this encounter starts, and still does when you activate this feature, you can apply the Charm condition to them. They may make an Intelligence save against your spell save DC each turn after the first in order to end the effect.
Net Wielder still feels a bit cut-n-pasted from the monk version. Rogues live and die by Sneak Attack, and they only get one attack unless they're dual wielding (can't with a net) or have multiclassed, so the last line isn't likely to matter. You should allow them to SA with the net or you've got a real conflict with the base class.
Invoke the Web could just apply to all Charisma-based checks, which allows for a bit more flexibility.
Exculpation is not a word people generally throw around. Best to give a clear definition for dummies like me. This does feel like a bit of a retread of Invoke the Web, just with a different situation though.
Faultless Innocence is potentially very strong, and kind of puts a lot of pressure on the DM to let it be as good as the player likely expects it to be. It also seems unrealistic that the stunned enemy would continue to be confused for an entire round as the party beats on them. I'd have this condition end if the creature was targeted by a harmful spell or attack, and I might tone down the stun to something like Command's action denial. That way it's not going to take the BBEG out of commission for a round, but it might get his lieutenant to waver on the sidelines as the battle begins.
The Positive Bond stuff sounds an awful lot like the charmed condition. I'd just use that because it's already understood by everyone and would result in a lot less "hang on let me read the feature again." A creature charmed by the rogue can and will still beat down on the rogue's allies so this isn't too strong.
1. Nets don't work for rogues as primary weapons. Simply make it a BA to throw the net and allow them to attack as their action if you really want to give them nets. But otherwise, I'd suggest something like what Inquisitive gets where they have an alternative way to get Sneak Attack - e.g. let them bond with a creature and always get sneak attack against that target. Or give them something charisma-ish or illusionish themed.
2. Invoke Web and Solemn Tongue of Extradition are too niche and overlapping. Consider something simpler like the Eloquence Bard feature.
3. Faultless Innocences is incredibly OP - practically guaranteeing a surprise round for the whole party every combat?
As written, the wielder can already deal damage with a net, and it's a ranged weapon, so you can still sneak attack with it. You would have to draw a second weapon for an off-hand attack, but that's not much of a restriction. Am I missing something on that point?
I've read over the rules for sneak attack and nets a few times now and I think the previous comment may be referring to the range: in order to sneak attack, you need to be between 6 and 15 feet away from the target, which is limiting for both ranged and melee builds. I would suggest giving them an ability that removes disadvantage from being within 5 feet of a target. I also think it could get annoying if your nets keep getting cut by enemies/lost, so being able to summon a spectral net that can be re-summoned if it gets broken might be a fitting ability.
I don't think that Faultless Innocence is super powerful, but it might need to be tuned down to give the surprised condition instead of stunned. (I know surprise isn't a condition, but it functions similarly enough to one that I think it should be.)
Heart-Thorn Hand needs to be revised, as it is very confusing. I suggest making it charm an opponent until you or another party member attacks them, or until the make a saving throw, similar to an automatically triggered Charm Person.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I write homebrew and don't publish it. (evil, I know)
Hmm, the spectral net thing sounds like a good idea. I've gotten similar feedback about Faultless Innocence and Heart-Thorn Hand, so I think I will replace both. For the first one, I'm thinking;
Distraction Agent
At 9th level, as a student of the Floki-way, you have learned to use magical deception and confusion to gain the upper hand in combat. You may cast Confusion, as an action, without the use of spell components, a number of times equal to your Proficiency Modifier, per Long Rest.
What would the spellcasting ability be for the save? I think Charisma makes the most sense, although letting the play choose would make for more possible builds. Given that the save will likely be low regardless, I would give them a bonus to using the spell, potentially removing the Concentration requirement, letting them cast it as a bonus action, or let them make an attack whenever they cast the spell. Something to make it more unique to the class, and give a slight buff.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I write homebrew and don't publish it. (evil, I know)
So, little while back I read an article for a class on mythology pointing out that Loki wasn't the god of fire (a misunderstanding due to the Norse incarnation of fire having similar name), or mischief (totally Marvel comics there), and trying to describe exactly what he was the god of. According to that author, he was the god of a Norse theological concept called 'floki', which is something like 'interconnectedness' in terms of law, emotions, debts and social situations. It was both a good thing and a bad thing. That inspired the following subclass, which I'd like to get feedback on;
Edit: Re-written as a Rogue Archetype, which, on reflection, it should have been to begin with.
The Way of Floki
The Way of Floki uses entanglement, physical or social, as its primary weapon. Every student of the Floki has a Bond to the teacher who taught it to them. It is impossible to know the secrets of this style without being emotionally exposed to one’s instructor, and impossible to understand that knowledge without accepting what’s within that heart. This attachment is both genuine and supernaturally unbreakable.
Net Wielder
As god of entanglement, Loki was the god who created nets, and to honor him, all rogues of the Floki-way learn to use them in combat. You gain proficiency with nets, and you also double your range increments while using them. You may choose to do bludgeoning damage with a net attack equal to 1d4 plus your Dexterity modifier, or throw the net without doing damage. In addition, if throwing a net, you do not suffer the usual limitation imposed by a net to make no other attacks that action.
Invoke the Web
At 3rd level, you have Advantage on any Persuasion, Intimidation, or Deception check made to compel an individual to honor a promise, debt or law, real or concocted.
Solemn Tongue of Extradition
From 9th level onward, the rogue gains advantage on any skill check aimed at exculpation.
Faultless Innocence
At 13th level, as a student of the Floki-way, you have learned to use magical deception and confusion to gain the upper hand in combat. Whenever you roll for Initiative you may elect to impose a penalty to your opponent’s Initiative equal to your rogue level. If this would render their Initiative to less then one, it becomes 1, and that opponent is Stunned for the round. The Stunned condition represents confusion you have sown regarding who initiated hostilities, individuals’ goal in the conflict, or whose side they are on. The DM chooses which, but victims cannot believe the rogue or their allies are at fault. Many opponents, who are likely to be confused as a result, may, at the DM’s discretion, seek to stop fighting.
You may apply this effect a number of times equal to your Proficiency modifier per Long Rest. Opponents immune to illusion effects are not affected by Faultless Innocence.
Heart-Thorn Hand
From 17th level onward, whenever you are targeted by an attack by a humanoid which does not successfully deal damage, you may use your reaction to make an emotional counterattack that instills in your attacker a positive Bond towards you. The context of the Bond, such as respect, admiration, a debt or unexpected love, is determined by the other character's player, or the DM in the case of an NPC. Possessing this Bond does not require the target to end hostilities, but it does stop the character from attempting to kill the rogue or allowing them to be killed if they can help it. This Bond lasts until the end of the encounter unless the controlling player or DM deem otherwise. Opponents immune to Charm effects are unaffected.
If the attacker previously had a positive Bond towards you before this encounter starts, and still does when you activate this feature, you can apply the Charm condition to them. They may make an Intelligence save against your spell save DC each turn after the first in order to end the effect.
Interesting concept. A couple things:
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
I agree with the above.
1. Nets don't work for rogues as primary weapons. Simply make it a BA to throw the net and allow them to attack as their action if you really want to give them nets. But otherwise, I'd suggest something like what Inquisitive gets where they have an alternative way to get Sneak Attack - e.g. let them bond with a creature and always get sneak attack against that target. Or give them something charisma-ish or illusionish themed.
2. Invoke Web and Solemn Tongue of Extradition are too niche and overlapping. Consider something simpler like the Eloquence Bard feature.
3. Faultless Innocences is incredibly OP - practically guaranteeing a surprise round for the whole party every combat?
4. Heart-Thorn-Hearted is really confusing.
Sorry it took me a while to get back to this.
As written, the wielder can already deal damage with a net, and it's a ranged weapon, so you can still sneak attack with it. You would have to draw a second weapon for an off-hand attack, but that's not much of a restriction. Am I missing something on that point?
I've read over the rules for sneak attack and nets a few times now and I think the previous comment may be referring to the range: in order to sneak attack, you need to be between 6 and 15 feet away from the target, which is limiting for both ranged and melee builds. I would suggest giving them an ability that removes disadvantage from being within 5 feet of a target. I also think it could get annoying if your nets keep getting cut by enemies/lost, so being able to summon a spectral net that can be re-summoned if it gets broken might be a fitting ability.
I don't think that Faultless Innocence is super powerful, but it might need to be tuned down to give the surprised condition instead of stunned. (I know surprise isn't a condition, but it functions similarly enough to one that I think it should be.)
Heart-Thorn Hand needs to be revised, as it is very confusing. I suggest making it charm an opponent until you or another party member attacks them, or until the make a saving throw, similar to an automatically triggered Charm Person.
I write homebrew and don't publish it. (evil, I know)
Hmm, the spectral net thing sounds like a good idea. I've gotten similar feedback about Faultless Innocence and Heart-Thorn Hand, so I think I will replace both. For the first one, I'm thinking;
Distraction Agent
At 9th level, as a student of the Floki-way, you have learned to use magical deception and confusion to gain the upper hand in combat. You may cast Confusion, as an action, without the use of spell components, a number of times equal to your Proficiency Modifier, per Long Rest.
What would the spellcasting ability be for the save? I think Charisma makes the most sense, although letting the play choose would make for more possible builds. Given that the save will likely be low regardless, I would give them a bonus to using the spell, potentially removing the Concentration requirement, letting them cast it as a bonus action, or let them make an attack whenever they cast the spell. Something to make it more unique to the class, and give a slight buff.
I write homebrew and don't publish it. (evil, I know)
Hi sorry that this doesn’t contribute to the conversation, but do you guys think you could help me with a home brew as well?
If you need help with something different, please create a new thread. I will gladly give my advice!
I write homebrew and don't publish it. (evil, I know)
All those options seem viable. I'll need to mull over which would be best.