So crossbows, due to their Loading special rule, are pretty terrible for any class with Extra Attacks, making them utterly redundant after 5th level for characters without the Crossbow Expert Feat. This is weird, since crossbows formed the staple of many medieval armies.
Here's my proposed fix No. 1 (used in addition to the Loading rule):
Take Aim
'If a character has the Extra Attack feature and fires a weapon with the Loading special rule, they may instead spend one of their attacks Taking Aim. If they do this, on their next attack with that weapon this action, they will roll an additional damage die.'
When you do the math, this means that a character with Extra Attacks will deal more damage than they do currently when firing crossbows etc, but will still do less damage than if they had the Crossbow Expert Feat and also less damage than a longbow, for example. If a crossbow dealt the same damage as a longbow, you might wonder what is the point of it having the Loading rule at all?
Proposed fix No. 2 (replacing the Loading special rule):
Loading
'A character firing a weapon with the Loading special rule cannot fire that weapon more than once if it also moved this turn, as it spends its movement reloading the weapon. Additionally, firing a weapon with the Loading special rule more than once in a turn reduces a character's speed to 0 for the rest of that turn, for the same reason.'
This version of the fix changes the dynamic of the crossbow into more of a static defensive/siege type weapon, which is what it was mainly used for historically. I quite like that.
It is potentially a little bit OP though, since crossbows have higher damage as the trade off for the Loading drawback, meaning a character under these rules would sacrifice movement in exchange for higher damage output compared with bows.
It would also mean that the main benefit of the Crossbow Expert Feat becomes movement (and shooting a hand crossbow as a bonus action and close range shooting, which are two pretty good reasons to keep Crossbow Expert Feat as a viable option).
Any thoughts? I feel that something has to be done with Crossbows and other loading weapons since they are so rare in my games.
So crossbows, due to their Loading special rule, are pretty terrible for any class with Extra Attacks, making them utterly redundant after 5th level for characters without the Crossbow Expert Feat. This is weird, since crossbows formed the staple of many medieval armies.
It's not weird. Crossbows are several times slower than any other weapon other than firearms. If anything, D&D's rules are already too generous; reloading a heavy crossbow takes so long you wouldn't have time to move or defend yourself for the rest of the round.
Crossbows were used because they didn't require as much practice or strength as longbows, the reload time wasn't a major issue during a long siege, and they can be kept loaded during assassination attempts. But they're incredibly loud and they'd be awful to carry around in a dungeon or use in close-range skirmishes. They're a lot like pikes in that respect.
If my players want a crossbow for stylistic reasons I'd rather use the artificer's Repeating Shot infusion to handwave the weapon's problems away with magic than pretend they're a reasonable adventuring weapon.
Thanks for the reply InquisitiveCoder. It may interest you to know that crossbows actually have considerably more power at short range than longbows.
The bolts used in crossbows are shorter and lighter than the arrows used in bows, meaning that they have greater starting force. This is why they hit harder than arrows at short range.
However, heavier objects, once in flight, have more momentum, meaning a heavier object will travel further and hit with more force once it's in flight. Arrows therefor hit with more force than crossbows at longer range.
So taking this into account, crossbows are actually superior to bows at short range. You could conceivably make use of that in a dungeon situation. In fact, given that bows, longbows in particular, are massive, your odds of being able to manoeuvre with a crossbow are actually higher in tight spaces.
Additionally, there are different types of crossbows. Try googling repeater crossbows - they use a lever mechanism to reload much more quickly and were used in China during the Warring states period. They're ugly as sin, though. But my point is, you would almost certainly come across many different kinds of crossbow in the Forgotten Realms.
So I guess what I'm saying is there are different scenarios where a bow will be superior to a crossbow and vice versa. But in DnD RAW, the crossbow is a decidedly inferior weapon, which I find disappointing. That's what these suggestions are for.
Well, ignoring the historical strengths and weaknesses of crossbows, out of the two suggestions I like the first one a bit more, mostly because it's less potentially powerful. It's still just a single attack roll and your DEX modifier is only added to the damage once.
I think it makes sense for crossbows to be relatively useless to classes that get extra attacks. These folks are trained fighters, whereas crossbows were historically for those who were relatively untrained.
So it occurs to me that the Take Aim rule could also be a fix for characters with extra attacks that use throwing weapons.
Under RAW, there's a limit on how many weapons a character can draw/stow, which limits how many throwing attacks you can make. Take Aim helps with that.
An historically accurate crossbow takes quite some time to reload. A light crossbow could take up to 10 seconds or longer, a heavy crossbow could take over 20 seconds to reload.
An English longbowman could fire an arrow every 6 seconds. If you want to truly be historically accurate then a bow should have the current loading property, a light crossbow should take 2 rounds, and a heavy crossbow should take 3 rounds to fire once.
Since this is a game and not a simulation I think the current rules work just fine.
What we've done with crossbows is allow loading a crossbow as a bonus action and/or extra attack.
So a fighter at 5th level can fire their loaded crossbow, bonus action reload, then fire again. On their next turn they start with an unloaded crossbow. So bonus action load, followed by an attack. Then if they wished to continue using the crossbow they would have to use their 2nd attack to reload for use the following round.
So at 5th level they effectively can attack 3 times every 2 rounds.
At 11th level they can attack twice every round.
At 17th level they get 5 attacks every 2 rounds.
We also treat the loading aspect of the crossbow as the act of cocking the bow. Loading a bolt is part of the attack action much like loading an arrow is part of the attack with a short/long bow. This effectively means you can have your crossbow "loaded" and not worry about "the bolt falling out". The other thing you can do with a crossbow but can't do with a short/long bow is fire from the prone position.
I agree with you InquisitiveCoder, 5E is too generous with crossbows. A trained crossbowman took 5-7 sec to fire, thats 1 per round as a trained soldier. it only gets worse with heavier crossbows. And a windlass takes more than 90 seconds (15 rounds).
My home game, I use light crossbows as once per round in my game, and heavy i introduced loading 2 ( 2 rounds to fire). My players are fine with this and crossbow expert reduces loading level by 1. there is no way you are firing a heavy crossbow 4 times in a round.
So crossbows, due to their Loading special rule, are pretty terrible for any class with Extra Attacks, making them utterly redundant after 5th level for characters without the Crossbow Expert Feat. This is weird, since crossbows formed the staple of many medieval armies.
Here's my proposed fix No. 1 (used in addition to the Loading rule):
Take Aim
'If a character has the Extra Attack feature and fires a weapon with the Loading special rule, they may instead spend one of their attacks Taking Aim. If they do this, on their next attack with that weapon this action, they will roll an additional damage die.'
When you do the math, this means that a character with Extra Attacks will deal more damage than they do currently when firing crossbows etc, but will still do less damage than if they had the Crossbow Expert Feat and also less damage than a longbow, for example. If a crossbow dealt the same damage as a longbow, you might wonder what is the point of it having the Loading rule at all?
Proposed fix No. 2 (replacing the Loading special rule):
Loading
'A character firing a weapon with the Loading special rule cannot fire that weapon more than once if it also moved this turn, as it spends its movement reloading the weapon. Additionally, firing a weapon with the Loading special rule more than once in a turn reduces a character's speed to 0 for the rest of that turn, for the same reason.'
This version of the fix changes the dynamic of the crossbow into more of a static defensive/siege type weapon, which is what it was mainly used for historically. I quite like that.
It is potentially a little bit OP though, since crossbows have higher damage as the trade off for the Loading drawback, meaning a character under these rules would sacrifice movement in exchange for higher damage output compared with bows.
It would also mean that the main benefit of the Crossbow Expert Feat becomes movement (and shooting a hand crossbow as a bonus action and close range shooting, which are two pretty good reasons to keep Crossbow Expert Feat as a viable option).
Any thoughts? I feel that something has to be done with Crossbows and other loading weapons since they are so rare in my games.
It's not weird. Crossbows are several times slower than any other weapon other than firearms. If anything, D&D's rules are already too generous; reloading a heavy crossbow takes so long you wouldn't have time to move or defend yourself for the rest of the round.
Crossbows were used because they didn't require as much practice or strength as longbows, the reload time wasn't a major issue during a long siege, and they can be kept loaded during assassination attempts. But they're incredibly loud and they'd be awful to carry around in a dungeon or use in close-range skirmishes. They're a lot like pikes in that respect.
If my players want a crossbow for stylistic reasons I'd rather use the artificer's Repeating Shot infusion to handwave the weapon's problems away with magic than pretend they're a reasonable adventuring weapon.
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Thanks for the reply InquisitiveCoder. It may interest you to know that crossbows actually have considerably more power at short range than longbows.
The bolts used in crossbows are shorter and lighter than the arrows used in bows, meaning that they have greater starting force. This is why they hit harder than arrows at short range.
However, heavier objects, once in flight, have more momentum, meaning a heavier object will travel further and hit with more force once it's in flight. Arrows therefor hit with more force than crossbows at longer range.
So taking this into account, crossbows are actually superior to bows at short range. You could conceivably make use of that in a dungeon situation. In fact, given that bows, longbows in particular, are massive, your odds of being able to manoeuvre with a crossbow are actually higher in tight spaces.
Additionally, there are different types of crossbows. Try googling repeater crossbows - they use a lever mechanism to reload much more quickly and were used in China during the Warring states period. They're ugly as sin, though. But my point is, you would almost certainly come across many different kinds of crossbow in the Forgotten Realms.
So I guess what I'm saying is there are different scenarios where a bow will be superior to a crossbow and vice versa. But in DnD RAW, the crossbow is a decidedly inferior weapon, which I find disappointing. That's what these suggestions are for.
To each their own, I guess. Cheers =)
Well, ignoring the historical strengths and weaknesses of crossbows, out of the two suggestions I like the first one a bit more, mostly because it's less potentially powerful. It's still just a single attack roll and your DEX modifier is only added to the damage once.
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I think it makes sense for crossbows to be relatively useless to classes that get extra attacks. These folks are trained fighters, whereas crossbows were historically for those who were relatively untrained.
Cheers TransmorpherDDS. I like the first one too - it's much simpler.
Thanks for the reply Generic_Poster.
So it occurs to me that the Take Aim rule could also be a fix for characters with extra attacks that use throwing weapons.
Under RAW, there's a limit on how many weapons a character can draw/stow, which limits how many throwing attacks you can make. Take Aim helps with that.
An historically accurate crossbow takes quite some time to reload. A light crossbow could take up to 10 seconds or longer, a heavy crossbow could take over 20 seconds to reload.
An English longbowman could fire an arrow every 6 seconds. If you want to truly be historically accurate then a bow should have the current loading property, a light crossbow should take 2 rounds, and a heavy crossbow should take 3 rounds to fire once.
Since this is a game and not a simulation I think the current rules work just fine.
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What we've done with crossbows is allow loading a crossbow as a bonus action and/or extra attack.
So a fighter at 5th level can fire their loaded crossbow, bonus action reload, then fire again. On their next turn they start with an unloaded crossbow. So bonus action load, followed by an attack. Then if they wished to continue using the crossbow they would have to use their 2nd attack to reload for use the following round.
So at 5th level they effectively can attack 3 times every 2 rounds.
At 11th level they can attack twice every round.
At 17th level they get 5 attacks every 2 rounds.
We also treat the loading aspect of the crossbow as the act of cocking the bow. Loading a bolt is part of the attack action much like loading an arrow is part of the attack with a short/long bow. This effectively means you can have your crossbow "loaded" and not worry about "the bolt falling out". The other thing you can do with a crossbow but can't do with a short/long bow is fire from the prone position.
That's interesting... It kind of reminds me of the cr gunslinger class where reloading (and other steps) can replace the attacks in the attack action.
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I was just thinking that.
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I agree with you InquisitiveCoder, 5E is too generous with crossbows. A trained crossbowman took 5-7 sec to fire, thats 1 per round as a trained soldier. it only gets worse with heavier crossbows. And a windlass takes more than 90 seconds (15 rounds).
My home game, I use light crossbows as once per round in my game, and heavy i introduced loading 2 ( 2 rounds to fire). My players are fine with this and crossbow expert reduces loading level by 1. there is no way you are firing a heavy crossbow 4 times in a round.