So after playing several sorcerers and following a few of the threads below is what I have come up with. Please let me know what everyone thinks.
Modified Font of Magic
As written in the PHB except you may recover sorcery points equal to the highest sorcerer spell level you can cast on a short rest.
In addition any spell slots created by consuming sorcery points must be used by the following dawn.
This ability does not function with other class's features (aka warlock spell slots)
Metamagic
2 options gained at 3rd level and you learn an additional option at 8th, 13th, and 18th levels
In addition you may expend your reaction to apply a metamagic option to a spell you can see. (may be used on spells cast by other casters); This ability may be used 1 time for each individual metamagic option you know. You may attempt a 2nd time however you will loose access to that metamagic option until you finish a long rest.
Ability Score Increases (rogue progression)
4th, 6th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 19th levels
Capstone: Metamagic Mastery
Choose 2 metamagic options you know they now consumer 1 less SP (min 1SP to use); in addtion you may now apply up to 2 metamagic options to a spell.
Notes: SP is regained on all short rests this is due to small amount that is regained. Since there is no cap on how many short rests I did not want this to step on the warlock's toes. For example a 3rd level warlock gets 2 2nd level slots on a short rest the equivalent recovery with this feature on a sorcerer is 11th level. Although the recovery is limited it does allow for the sorcerer to use its core feature of metamagic more often. In addition the advent of applying metamagic to other casters allows them to complement other casters as opposed to competing with them. The ability score increases change is to represent the fact that the sorcerer should have opportunities to learn other skills and/or knowledge since their abilities are instinctual as opposed to being trained. Given the limitations of their spell selection the capstone was chosen to expand their ability to augment spells with metamagic or expand their 4th and 5th level spell slots.
Based on feedback I have modified font of magic, ASI, and the capstone.
You may cast your 1st through 3rd level spells without expending a spell slot.
You've got a lot of interesting ideas that could help the core Sorcerer feel like a more "complete" class, but this is the one people are going to have a problem with. There's no way anyone will swallow being able to cast Fireball every round. Moreover, I don't think anyone would be able to accept even limiting it to just 1st level spells... that sets up a permanent Shield every round.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
To be honest this seems like far too much of a power up for the Sorcerer but doesn't actually address their main issues: the lack of spells known and the d6 hit die. I think giving them SP regeneration is a good idea (I do it on my fixed Sorc, though not the same way), the every rest may be a bit much but gauge that game by game. I don't understand the additional ASI, Sorcerer's are fairly SAD anyway and it steps on the toes of the Fighter and Rogue. Applying metamagic to other casters is interesting, but too powerful for the main class, it would be an interesting support Origin though. Capstones are meant to be impressive, but that is just insane, the Wizard is a powerful casting class and the capstone is more powerful than it's 18th and 20th level features combined.
You may cast your 1st through 3rd level spells without expending a spell slot.
You've got a lot of interesting ideas that could help the core Sorcerer feel like a more "complete" class, but this is the one people are going to have a problem with. There's no way anyone will swallow being able to cast Fireball every round. Moreover, I don't think anyone would be able to accept even limiting it to just 1st level spells... that sets up a permanent Shield every round.
I see what your saying however the wizard can already have perma shield at the same level. Fireball every round does sound powerful but at 20th level is it really? Maybe restricting it to 1st and 2nd level spells? The idea is to open up those slots to be turned into sorcery points for the sorcerer to use augment all of his spells.
Another thing to remember is that shield will compete with using metamagic on someonelses spell since both consume your reaction.
To be honest this seems like far too much of a power up for the Sorcerer but doesn't actually address their main issues: the lack of spells known and the d6 hit die. I think giving them SP regeneration is a good idea (I do it on my fixed Sorc, though not the same way), the every rest may be a bit much but gauge that game by game. I don't understand the additional ASI, Sorcerer's are fairly SAD anyway and it steps on the toes of the Fighter and Rogue. Applying metamagic to other casters is interesting, but too powerful for the main class, it would be an interesting support Origin though. Capstones are meant to be impressive, but that is just insane, the Wizard is a powerful casting class and the capstone is more powerful than it's 18th and 20th level features combined.
Giving the sorcerer additional spells known would step on the toes of other casters. The d6 hit die is indeed a flaw to the class however as a full spellcaster your not really supposed to be on the front lines. The sorcerer can benefit the ASI since there features are rather linear and the additional feat opportunity can open up some more flavor. Applying metamagic makes the sorcerer the other party caster's best friends such like the fighter is the rogue's best friend on the front lines. The capstone is pretty close to the wizard's spell mastery ability. Remember at this level range the sorcerer is more than likely having to trade these low level spells known for higher ones. The sorcerer only knows 15 spells at 20th level so by this time he will only know a handful of spells from 1st to 3rd.
I actually think throwing additional ASIs at core Sorc is one of the best ideas for making it a better class, and I'd almost like to see them get (potentially) more ASIs than Fighter/Rogue.
Multi-classing slows down ASI progression, and can easily leave you missing out on one with a common 17/3 split. Sticking in an extra one at level 6 would make builds that MC into Sorc for more than just a quick dip more attractive. Putting in another at level 12 would be a big reward for going straight Sorc, and opens up the field to allow more builds that MC out of Sorc.
While Sorc is already SAD, regardless of stat generation, almost everyone wants to make a beeline to 20 CHA. Once that's achieved, there's still a high priority on making sure your Dex/Con are at least decent. A typical character without rolled stats is going to spend 3/5 ASIs on stats, and maybe a feat or two... if they even get that far. Think about all the feats that a Sorc could take to specialize themselves if they had the opportunity, and particularly if they're given the opportunity earlier. Throwing in Elemental Adept, Spell Sniper, Racial spellcasting feats, War Caster, Resilient (Con), etc. can really pump up the image of a Sorcerer being a specialized spellcaster, and not just a slightly different Wizard.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I wouldn't be opposed to the fighter progression but I wouldn't want to overdo it. Maybe just moving the extra bump at 6th lvl as opposed to lvl 10? Doing this does make lvl 6 a pretty important level for the sorcerer extra feat and origin feature.
Ye know? I'm with Sigred on this. I'm digging the idea of the Sorcerer getting bonus ASIs.
The trickle SP regen of "Slot level per short rest" is a good idea; I see way too many "Arcane Recovery but for SP!" options out there. The idea is to make the sorcerer different from a wizard, not make them basically-wizards-but-slightly-shittier. Being able to recover a little bit of resource every single short rest, instead of a chunk of stuff all at once on the first short rest, feels better to me. Giving sorcerers the ability to benefit from every rest and even just one extra ASI early in progression feels correct in a way a lot of other options people have thrown at sorcerer have not.
The capstone is unfortunately bonko bugnuts and needs to go. I get what you're trying to do, but turning every single early spell into a cantrip just doesn't fly. Thw wizard's level 18 ability is arguably its real capstone and is one of the best, strongest abilities in the game...and it says "pick exactly ONE first level and exactly ONE second level spell. You get those for free." Sorcerer getting everything they know for free, even of first level alone, would be massively redonkulongle. Maybe rethink that one.
But otherwise you may be on to something. Nice work.
The only D6 classes are the Wizard and Sorcerer, the majority of casters as D8, it's not about being on the front line, it's about bringing them inline with their peers.
How would it step on the toes of other casters? It's a widely acknowledged issue that they get too few spells (acknowledged by the UAs having additional spells known, even the Xanathar's Origins have an additional spell known (besides the Storm, which came out in the SCAG anyway). Adding two spells to their progression would help player satisfaction without stepping on the toes of anyone (Bard and Wizard still greatly out do them in spells known). The issue with applying metamagic to other casters is not about whether or not people would like it, it's how powerful it is (especially given the extent of SP regeneration your homebrew also provides). Pairing this Sorc with a Wizard would be a very potent and devastating combo, at the very least I'd recommend a clause that only lets you add metamagic on a reaction only if you did not add one to your own spell that round.
Everyone benefits from additional ASIs, casters arguably need them the least. Feats are an optional rule, whilst a common one, you shouldn't base core class design decisions on variant rules.
Your capstone is just straight up more powerful than the 18th and 20th level features the Wizard gets combined, and I don't think you'll find anyone that says that either of those abilites are sub par. You're right they won't have many spells of that level, but you're turning the ones they do into cantrips, not only is this incredibly powerful (even at 20th level it's likely a Sorcerer will still have spells like Shield, Absorb Elements, Misty Step etc.) but it has a knock on effect of making their 1st through 3rd level slots completely useless. This means that those slots will then just get turned into Sorc points, either for far more 4/5 level castings or metamagic on basically every spell they ever cast (when combined with SP regen as proposed).
From a balance standpoint this fix shoots the Sorc well into OP territory.
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thats someonelse's thread and the sorcerer forum gets very few views. Plus changes to a class are homebrew thus belong here. I felt my proposed changes also warranted their own thread.
The only D6 classes are the Wizard and Sorcerer, the majority of casters as D8, it's not about being on the front line, it's about bringing them inline with their peers.
How would it step on the toes of other casters? It's a widely acknowledged issue that they get too few spells (acknowledged by the UAs having additional spells known, even the Xanathar's Origins have an additional spell known (besides the Storm, which came out in the SCAG anyway). Adding two spells to their progression would help player satisfaction without stepping on the toes of anyone (Bard and Wizard still greatly out do them in spells known). The issue with applying metamagic to other casters is not about whether or not people would like it, it's how powerful it is (especially given the extent of SP regeneration your homebrew also provides). Pairing this Sorc with a Wizard would be a very potent and devastating combo, at the very least I'd recommend a clause that only lets you add metamagic on a reaction only if you did not add one to your own spell that round.
Everyone benefits from additional ASIs, casters arguably need them the least. Feats are an optional rule, whilst a common one, you shouldn't base core class design decisions on variant rules.
Your capstone is just straight up more powerful than the 18th and 20th level features the Wizard gets combined, and I don't think you'll find anyone that says that either of those abilites are sub par. You're right they won't have many spells of that level, but you're turning the ones they do into cantrips, not only is this incredibly powerful (even at 20th level it's likely a Sorcerer will still have spells like Shield, Absorb Elements, Misty Step etc.) but it has a knock on effect of making their 1st through 3rd level slots completely useless. This means that those slots will then just get turned into Sorc points, either for far more 4/5 level castings or metamagic on basically every spell they ever cast (when combined with SP regen as proposed).
From a balance standpoint this fix shoots the Sorc well into OP territory.
I think your not understanding that using your reaction to something as a caster with only a d6 hit die is a significant resource. Casters typically want to reserve their reaction for shield, counterspell, absorb elements etc... Using a reaction is part of the cost of the ability. I think its the most appropriate way to reintroduce the cooperative casting mechanics and serve as nice little niche ability that would be unique to sorcerers.
As a swap for the capstone how do you feel about they may apply up to 2 metamagic options to a spell they cast and in addition they choose 2 metamagic options they know these metamagic options have their cost reduced by 1 (min 1sp)
Also I don't see how the sp recovery is OP? It would be the weakest recovery mechanic as I pointed out earlier a 3rd lvl warlock's recovery would be the equivalent to an 11th sorcerer under this change.
oops missed your point about spells known. Origin spells are part of the origin/archetype not the core class which is why they aren't included here. I do think the sorcerer needs more spells known but honestly im not sure how many my gut is pushing me in the direction of 2-5 additional spells known.
I actually think throwing additional ASIs at core Sorc is one of the best ideas for making it a better class, and I'd almost like to see them get (potentially) more ASIs than Fighter/Rogue.
Multi-classing slows down ASI progression, and can easily leave you missing out on one with a common 17/3 split. Sticking in an extra one at level 6 would make builds that MC into Sorc for more than just a quick dip more attractive. Putting in another at level 12 would be a big reward for going straight Sorc, and opens up the field to allow more builds that MC out of Sorc.
While Sorc is already SAD, regardless of stat generation, almost everyone wants to make a beeline to 20 CHA. Once that's achieved, there's still a high priority on making sure your Dex/Con are at least decent. A typical character without rolled stats is going to spend 3/5 ASIs on stats, and maybe a feat or two... if they even get that far. Think about all the feats that a Sorc could take to specialize themselves if they had the opportunity, and particularly if they're given the opportunity earlier. Throwing in Elemental Adept, Spell Sniper, Racial spellcasting feats, War Caster, Resilient (Con), etc. can really pump up the image of a Sorcerer being a specialized spellcaster, and not just a slightly different Wizard.
Keep in mind that sorcerers begin with Constitution saves. They would likely go with either Resilient (Dex) or Resilient (Con). Characters that MC into Sorcerer from a class other than Barbarian (why?), Fighter (more likely), or Artificer (more MAD, but a little more interesting) would be much more interested in that Resilient (Con).
I really like the idea of the Racial spellcasting feats coupled with Sorcerer. Someone had mentioned that they think that a Sorcerer should be able to learn more as they are going. The Racial spellcasting feats really toe the line of "This is something that is learned" and "This is something that happens innately for people of my race". As such, I find it thematically satisfying. The other feats allow for that "Mastery of my innate talents" feel. The only problem with the extra ASIs that I can see: what do they do with them if feats are not a thing in a campaign. With 5 ASIs, you could throw 2 at CHA for max, 2 at Dex or Con for max, and the remaining one at the other defensive stat which likely gets it to 15 or 16, or finishing out the first stat if it didn't start at 16. This is assuming that standard array and optimal racials. The other two could fill out the remaining stat or bump a second tier skill stat, but that might seem dissatisfying that late in the game, particularly for people who rarely get to 19. This would be more aggravating for people who roll really well.
Of course, having those bonus ASIs in the middle of that 11 level section where nothing happens on an odd level except getting the next larger spell slot would potentially change that feeling a little bit. Additionally, the fact that some people might be dissatisfied with having extra ASIs instead of another feature (that doesn't currently exist) shouldn't be the final consideration for implementing something or not. One thing that would have to be considered if those extra ASIs did show up is where would they go. Sorcerer is already a heavy favorite for multiclassing, particularly among Charisma casters. Having that first ASI at 6 might tilt the balance more towards sorcerer having to be a 6 level multiclass detour all the time. Placing the first one at 10 would benefit long term Sorcerers without making it an auto-include for every Charisma Caster. Again, not the end of the world if it does happen, but something worth considering.
It's not as clear cut as that, if you stay in the back and have defensive buffs on (Mirror Image, Blur etc.) then you won't be targeted as much as other characters. Who will the BBEG be going after? The Wizard casting the spell or the Sorcerer buffing it? Is there even a way to tell the Sorcerer is doing that?
That feels like a much more reasonable option for a capstone.
I never meant that the SP on its own was OP, but when you combine it with the capstone it becomes problematic and it is on the higher end of the powerscale. More potent options like Twinned and Quickened spell will be used pretty much every combat multiple times. Warlock is not a fair comparison to make, it's the core of their casting feature whereas SP is primarily fuel for Metas with a conversion option if wanted, they shouldn't be comparable. For reference my fixed sorcerer has Sorcerous Recovery: One short rest per day, you can regain a number of SP equal to half your level rounded up. It's enough to give some longevity to a Sorcerer and make them more fun to play, but has no real potential to get out of hand (consider the implications of yours re: the coffee lock. You get lesser short rest regen sure, but you're not losing out on progression to get it and don't need to go slot>point>slot).
Personally I use one additional spell at 1st level and another at 5th, it allows players to have the essentials and some choice left over without having to resort to cantrips or a crossbow most of the time. It keeps the Sorc well behind in terms of spell known compared to other classes, but helps the Sorc out significantly.
It's not as clear cut as that, if you stay in the back and have defensive buffs on (Mirror Image, Blur etc.) then you won't be targeted as much as other characters. Who will the BBEG be going after? The Wizard casting the spell or the Sorcerer buffing it? Is there even a way to tell the Sorcerer is doing that?
That feels like a much more reasonable option for a capstone.
I never meant that the SP on its own was OP, but when you combine it with the capstone it becomes problematic and it is on the higher end of the powerscale. More potent options like Twinned and Quickened spell will be used pretty much every combat multiple times. Warlock is not a fair comparison to make, it's the core of their casting feature whereas SP is primarily fuel for Metas with a conversion option if wanted, they shouldn't be comparable. For reference my fixed sorcerer has Sorcerous Recovery: One short rest per day, you can regain a number of SP equal to half your level rounded up. It's enough to give some longevity to a Sorcerer and make them more fun to play, but has no real potential to get out of hand (consider the implications of yours re: the coffee lock. You get lesser short rest regen sure, but you're not losing out on progression to get it and don't need to go slot>point>slot).
Personally I use one additional spell at 1st level and another at 5th, it allows players to have the essentials and some choice left over without having to resort to cantrips or a crossbow most of the time. It keeps the Sorc well behind in terms of spell known compared to other classes, but helps the Sorc out significantly.
ok compare it to the wizard whose arcane recovery gives half their level in spell levels on a short rest. At 10th level the wizard can recover a 5th level spell slot. The equivalent for a sorcerer for a 5th level slot is 7 sorcery points. With my proposed change a 10th lvl sorcerer would recover 5 sp. It would take 2 short rests to exceed what WOTC has already deemed appropriate and 2 short rests would combine to the equivalent of a 5th level slot and a 2nd level slot. Im not seeing this as being OP. I did address the coffeelock in the edit I made to the OP btw. Any slots created via font of magic are lost at the next dawn.
It's not as clear cut as that, if you stay in the back and have defensive buffs on (Mirror Image, Blur etc.) then you won't be targeted as much as other characters. Who will the BBEG be going after? The Wizard casting the spell or the Sorcerer buffing it? Is there even a way to tell the Sorcerer is doing that?
That feels like a much more reasonable option for a capstone.
I never meant that the SP on its own was OP, but when you combine it with the capstone it becomes problematic and it is on the higher end of the powerscale. More potent options like Twinned and Quickened spell will be used pretty much every combat multiple times. Warlock is not a fair comparison to make, it's the core of their casting feature whereas SP is primarily fuel for Metas with a conversion option if wanted, they shouldn't be comparable. For reference my fixed sorcerer has Sorcerous Recovery: One short rest per day, you can regain a number of SP equal to half your level rounded up. It's enough to give some longevity to a Sorcerer and make them more fun to play, but has no real potential to get out of hand (consider the implications of yours re: the coffee lock. You get lesser short rest regen sure, but you're not losing out on progression to get it and don't need to go slot>point>slot).
Personally I use one additional spell at 1st level and another at 5th, it allows players to have the essentials and some choice left over without having to resort to cantrips or a crossbow most of the time. It keeps the Sorc well behind in terms of spell known compared to other classes, but helps the Sorc out significantly.
ok compare it to the wizard whose arcane recovery gives half their level in spell levels on a short rest. At 10th level the wizard can recover a 5th level spell slot. The equivalent for a sorcerer for a 5th level slot is 7 sorcery points. With my proposed change a 10th lvl sorcerer would recover 5 sp. It would take 2 short rests to exceed what WOTC has already deemed appropriate and 2 short rests would combine to the equivalent of a 5th level slot and a 2nd level slot. Im not seeing this as being OP. I did address the coffeelock in the edit I made to the OP btw. Any slots created via font of magic are lost at the next dawn.
That Sorcerer would need someone with keen mind, have the feat, and/or always take the last watch so they could feverishly be working on casting their buff spells with those extra slots that way. For anyone that's not familiar enough with Sorcerer to know off the top of their head, they can never have more sorcerer points than allowed for their level. Extended spell might see a little more use for to extend buffs like Mage Armor to the 24 hour maximum but that doesn't seem like as big of a deal when coffee locks go days hoarding their recovered spells currently.
Edit: Extended spell might be even more of a thing when the sorcerer can affect other characters spells as well. An Extended Hunter's Mark might not be worth it, but 2 hour Warding Bond? Something similar in duration?
It's not as clear cut as that, if you stay in the back and have defensive buffs on (Mirror Image, Blur etc.) then you won't be targeted as much as other characters. Who will the BBEG be going after? The Wizard casting the spell or the Sorcerer buffing it? Is there even a way to tell the Sorcerer is doing that?
That feels like a much more reasonable option for a capstone.
I never meant that the SP on its own was OP, but when you combine it with the capstone it becomes problematic and it is on the higher end of the powerscale. More potent options like Twinned and Quickened spell will be used pretty much every combat multiple times. Warlock is not a fair comparison to make, it's the core of their casting feature whereas SP is primarily fuel for Metas with a conversion option if wanted, they shouldn't be comparable. For reference my fixed sorcerer has Sorcerous Recovery: One short rest per day, you can regain a number of SP equal to half your level rounded up. It's enough to give some longevity to a Sorcerer and make them more fun to play, but has no real potential to get out of hand (consider the implications of yours re: the coffee lock. You get lesser short rest regen sure, but you're not losing out on progression to get it and don't need to go slot>point>slot).
Personally I use one additional spell at 1st level and another at 5th, it allows players to have the essentials and some choice left over without having to resort to cantrips or a crossbow most of the time. It keeps the Sorc well behind in terms of spell known compared to other classes, but helps the Sorc out significantly.
ok compare it to the wizard whose arcane recovery gives half their level in spell levels on a short rest. At 10th level the wizard can recover a 5th level spell slot. The equivalent for a sorcerer for a 5th level slot is 7 sorcery points. With my proposed change a 10th lvl sorcerer would recover 5 sp. It would take 2 short rests to exceed what WOTC has already deemed appropriate and 2 short rests would combine to the equivalent of a 5th level slot and a 2nd level slot. Im not seeing this as being OP. I did address the coffeelock in the edit I made to the OP btw. Any slots created via font of magic are lost at the next dawn.
For the record I deem Arcane Recovery overkill on the Wizard anyway (the Land Druid is okay as it's essentially all it gets) but to clarify I had not seen that you modified it to make the slots disappear at dawn not a long rest, that gets rid of that concern. Again I don't think that the SP regen is broken on its own, but I think you would need to play test how powerful this would actually make the Sorcerer (heavy metamagic use every encounter or creating a lot more slots than normal). How many short rests do you normally go through in a day in your games?
I actually think throwing additional ASIs at core Sorc is one of the best ideas for making it a better class, and I'd almost like to see them get (potentially) more ASIs than Fighter/Rogue.
Multi-classing slows down ASI progression, and can easily leave you missing out on one with a common 17/3 split. Sticking in an extra one at level 6 would make builds that MC into Sorc for more than just a quick dip more attractive. Putting in another at level 12 would be a big reward for going straight Sorc, and opens up the field to allow more builds that MC out of Sorc.
While Sorc is already SAD, regardless of stat generation, almost everyone wants to make a beeline to 20 CHA. Once that's achieved, there's still a high priority on making sure your Dex/Con are at least decent. A typical character without rolled stats is going to spend 3/5 ASIs on stats, and maybe a feat or two... if they even get that far. Think about all the feats that a Sorc could take to specialize themselves if they had the opportunity, and particularly if they're given the opportunity earlier. Throwing in Elemental Adept, Spell Sniper, Racial spellcasting feats, War Caster, Resilient (Con), etc. can really pump up the image of a Sorcerer being a specialized spellcaster, and not just a slightly different Wizard.
Keep in mind that sorcerers begin with Constitution saves. They would likely go with either Resilient (Dex) or Resilient (Con). Characters that MC into Sorcerer from a class other than Barbarian (why?), Fighter (more likely), or Artificer (more MAD, but a little more interesting) would be much more interested in that Resilient (Con).
I really like the idea of the Racial spellcasting feats coupled with Sorcerer. Someone had mentioned that they think that a Sorcerer should be able to learn more as they are going. The Racial spellcasting feats really toe the line of "This is something that is learned" and "This is something that happens innately for people of my race". As such, I find it thematically satisfying. The other feats allow for that "Mastery of my innate talents" feel. The only problem with the extra ASIs that I can see: what do they do with them if feats are not a thing in a campaign. (1) With 5 ASIs, you could throw 2 at CHA for max, 2 at Dex or Con for max, and the remaining one at the other defensive stat which likely gets it to 15 or 16, or finishing out the first stat if it didn't start at 16. This is assuming that standard array and optimal racials. The other two could fill out the remaining stat or bump a second tier skill stat, but that might seem dissatisfying that late in the game, particularly for people who rarely get to 19. This would be more aggravating for people who roll really well.
Of course, having those bonus ASIs in the middle of that 11 level section where nothing happens on an odd level except getting the next larger spell slot would potentially change that feeling a little bit. Additionally, the fact that some people might be dissatisfied with having extra ASIs instead of another feature (that doesn't currently exist) shouldn't be the final consideration for implementing something or not. One thing that would have to be considered if those extra ASIs did show up is where would they go. Sorcerer is already a heavy favorite for multiclassing, particularly among Charisma casters. Having that first ASI at 6 might tilt the balance more towards sorcerer having to be a 6 level multiclass detour all the time. (2) Placing the first one at 10 would benefit long term Sorcerers without making it an auto-include for every Charisma Caster. Again, not the end of the world if it does happen, but something worth considering.
The same thing that everyone else, Fighters & Rogues included, do when there are no feats available..? Dump it in another stat. I think there are plenty of players whom would be very happy with simply being able to get close to maxing Cha/Dex/Con, or pumping up a stat that affects their skill sets. Maybe if the Sorc simply got to choose from a short list of feats instead of a full-blown ASI would be more simple & direct.
I only know of a couple builds that go 6 levels in Sorc, so I'm not sure exactly how common that really is. In any event, I think that would still be a good thing. I'd rather see people doing more than just a 1-3 level dip for specific feature(s). It's also worth remembering that any more than a 3 level dip in another class is going to permanently block access to learning 9th level spells. That's a hefty trade for any character that's going to reach high levels, and I'd like to see more people encouraged to give up that possibility for the ability to play something more interesting.
Lots of possibilities!
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Generally we see 1-2 short rests on rare occassion as many as 3 it all depends on what is going on in the campaign. In the majority of games I have played in we generally have 1 short rest followed by a long rest. I know that WOTC believes you get IIRC 4 short rests in an adventuring day but in my experience that never happens. I have also played in many games where a short rest is seldom had which can be frustrating. Perhaps we need more info to see just how many short rests is "normal".
The same thing that everyone else, Fighters & Rogues included, do when there are no feats available..? Dump it in another stat. I think there are plenty of players whom would be very happy with simply being able to get close to maxing Cha/Dex/Con, or pumping up a stat that affects their skill sets. Maybe if the Sorc simply got to choose from a short list of feats instead of a full-blown ASI would be more simple & direct.
I only know of a couple builds that go 6 levels in Sorc, so I'm not sure exactly how common that really is. In any event, I think that would still be a good thing. I'd rather see people doing more than just a 1-3 level dip for specific feature(s). It's also worth remembering that any more than a 3 level dip in another class is going to permanently block access to learning 9th level spells. That's a hefty trade for any character that's going to reach high levels, and I'd like to see more people encouraged to give up that possibility for the ability to play something more interesting.
Lots of possibilities!
1. I wasn't trying to say that it would be a bad thing at all. There are enough opportunities to simply tag on the extra ASI at some point that it would feel like more regardless of how much more it actually was. Not every level will be as exciting for every build. My only concern would be if it was replacing something from the base sorcerer. For fighter and rogue, there isn't anything else that happens at those extra ASIs. The only thing that I can think of off the top of my head that occurs at an ASI level at all would be the Cleric's 8th level Potent Spellcasting or Divine Strike. Having an ASI on the same level as a spell slot upgrade does occur for Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters (19th level). The other levels where the third casters get spell slot upgrades: War Magic for EK and Evasion for AT @ 7th & Indomitable (2 uses) and Versatile Trickster @ 13th. (As an aside and late to the conversation, how horrible is Multiclassing for either third caster if they aren't going into one of the other casters besides the other third caster. It sets them back 2 levels in their spell slot progression.) I do think that having an extra ASI on one of the odd levels where spell slot progression is the only thing that's happening for a Sorcerer could make it more exciting, although that does potentially make more choices that need to be made at that level. As long as it isn't replacing other features, it won't matter if the campaign doesn't allow feats any more than it does for Rogues or Fighters, since it would simply be part of the progression from that point on. Having an option to hard back a feat choice into the class is an intriguing option, particularly if the list is limited. That would necessitate an errata entry any time that something was added to the feats options to either include more feats or exclude more feats (depending on how they chose to limit the list, which I suspect would be an inclusive list), so it isn't without it's downfall either.
2. I have no practical experience with Sorcerer. I haven't been able to play 5e yet and none of my players have chosen to play Sorcerer (could be telling, though I haven't had a rogue or a monk yet either. I've technically had an Artificer, but it was a UA one. Plus, most of my players have been newer.) Admittedly, I haven't been DMing long enough to multiples chosen from classes other than Ranger, Fighter, Cleric, and Druid. That means that most of my thoughts on the subject are theoretical and applied from what I've read from others' experience or trying to apply what I've learned from one of the other classes to Sorcerer. I've had enough practice with trying to apply theories to practical experiences to realize that there are usually some interactions that are completely unforeseen when the variables are as numerous as D&D offers. As such, I was just putting out thoughts that may have been overlooked or not considered. I wasn't expecting all or even many of them to be correct. I didn't consider the effect that losing out on 9th level spells might have, since I've not yet played in a game that has gone high enough to let me see exactly how powerful those spells can be. Additionally, I'm willing to try builds that specialize in areas that would leave many people cringing at how it isn't optimized for things that would normally be the focal points of builds using those classes. Perhaps that's because I haven't had the good fortune to find a game where I can actually play that terrible character and see how bad it can really be ;) It does make sense that most multiclasses would still remain a 1-3 level dip in the off class just to maintain progression in the main class as much as possible, particularly when that might represent 10-30% of the levels that you do take.
I do like the option to choose from more possibilities. I like it even better when those options mean choosing between 2 or more good things. It makes those choices more meaningful. I just don't want to see options given where there is no choice because one choice is clearly better than others. I definitely like some of the ideas that were brought up because I think they could make some of the choices that are typically considered very lackluster to be a valid choice for the right build.
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So after playing several sorcerers and following a few of the threads below is what I have come up with. Please let me know what everyone thinks.
Modified Font of Magic
As written in the PHB except you may recover sorcery points equal to the highest sorcerer spell level you can cast on a short rest.
In addition any spell slots created by consuming sorcery points must be used by the following dawn.
This ability does not function with other class's features (aka warlock spell slots)
Metamagic
2 options gained at 3rd level and you learn an additional option at 8th, 13th, and 18th levels
In addition you may expend your reaction to apply a metamagic option to a spell you can see. (may be used on spells cast by other casters); This ability may be used 1 time for each individual metamagic option you know. You may attempt a 2nd time however you will loose access to that metamagic option until you finish a long rest.
Ability Score Increases (rogue progression)
4th, 6th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 19th levels
Capstone: Metamagic Mastery
Choose 2 metamagic options you know they now consumer 1 less SP (min 1SP to use); in addtion you may now apply up to 2 metamagic options to a spell.
Notes: SP is regained on all short rests this is due to small amount that is regained. Since there is no cap on how many short rests I did not want this to step on the warlock's toes. For example a 3rd level warlock gets 2 2nd level slots on a short rest the equivalent recovery with this feature on a sorcerer is 11th level. Although the recovery is limited it does allow for the sorcerer to use its core feature of metamagic more often. In addition the advent of applying metamagic to other casters allows them to complement other casters as opposed to competing with them. The ability score increases change is to represent the fact that the sorcerer should have opportunities to learn other skills and/or knowledge since their abilities are instinctual as opposed to being trained. Given the limitations of their spell selection the capstone was chosen to expand their ability to augment spells with metamagic or expand their 4th and 5th level spell slots.
Based on feedback I have modified font of magic, ASI, and the capstone.
You've got a lot of interesting ideas that could help the core Sorcerer feel like a more "complete" class, but this is the one people are going to have a problem with. There's no way anyone will swallow being able to cast Fireball every round. Moreover, I don't think anyone would be able to accept even limiting it to just 1st level spells... that sets up a permanent Shield every round.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
To be honest this seems like far too much of a power up for the Sorcerer but doesn't actually address their main issues: the lack of spells known and the d6 hit die. I think giving them SP regeneration is a good idea (I do it on my fixed Sorc, though not the same way), the every rest may be a bit much but gauge that game by game. I don't understand the additional ASI, Sorcerer's are fairly SAD anyway and it steps on the toes of the Fighter and Rogue. Applying metamagic to other casters is interesting, but too powerful for the main class, it would be an interesting support Origin though. Capstones are meant to be impressive, but that is just insane, the Wizard is a powerful casting class and the capstone is more powerful than it's 18th and 20th level features combined.
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I see what your saying however the wizard can already have perma shield at the same level. Fireball every round does sound powerful but at 20th level is it really? Maybe restricting it to 1st and 2nd level spells? The idea is to open up those slots to be turned into sorcery points for the sorcerer to use augment all of his spells.
Another thing to remember is that shield will compete with using metamagic on someonelses spell since both consume your reaction.
Giving the sorcerer additional spells known would step on the toes of other casters. The d6 hit die is indeed a flaw to the class however as a full spellcaster your not really supposed to be on the front lines. The sorcerer can benefit the ASI since there features are rather linear and the additional feat opportunity can open up some more flavor. Applying metamagic makes the sorcerer the other party caster's best friends such like the fighter is the rogue's best friend on the front lines. The capstone is pretty close to the wizard's spell mastery ability. Remember at this level range the sorcerer is more than likely having to trade these low level spells known for higher ones. The sorcerer only knows 15 spells at 20th level so by this time he will only know a handful of spells from 1st to 3rd.
I actually think throwing additional ASIs at core Sorc is one of the best ideas for making it a better class, and I'd almost like to see them get (potentially) more ASIs than Fighter/Rogue.
Multi-classing slows down ASI progression, and can easily leave you missing out on one with a common 17/3 split. Sticking in an extra one at level 6 would make builds that MC into Sorc for more than just a quick dip more attractive. Putting in another at level 12 would be a big reward for going straight Sorc, and opens up the field to allow more builds that MC out of Sorc.
While Sorc is already SAD, regardless of stat generation, almost everyone wants to make a beeline to 20 CHA. Once that's achieved, there's still a high priority on making sure your Dex/Con are at least decent. A typical character without rolled stats is going to spend 3/5 ASIs on stats, and maybe a feat or two... if they even get that far. Think about all the feats that a Sorc could take to specialize themselves if they had the opportunity, and particularly if they're given the opportunity earlier. Throwing in Elemental Adept, Spell Sniper, Racial spellcasting feats, War Caster, Resilient (Con), etc. can really pump up the image of a Sorcerer being a specialized spellcaster, and not just a slightly different Wizard.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I wouldn't be opposed to the fighter progression but I wouldn't want to overdo it. Maybe just moving the extra bump at 6th lvl as opposed to lvl 10? Doing this does make lvl 6 a pretty important level for the sorcerer extra feat and origin feature.
Ye know? I'm with Sigred on this. I'm digging the idea of the Sorcerer getting bonus ASIs.
The trickle SP regen of "Slot level per short rest" is a good idea; I see way too many "Arcane Recovery but for SP!" options out there. The idea is to make the sorcerer different from a wizard, not make them basically-wizards-but-slightly-shittier. Being able to recover a little bit of resource every single short rest, instead of a chunk of stuff all at once on the first short rest, feels better to me. Giving sorcerers the ability to benefit from every rest and even just one extra ASI early in progression feels correct in a way a lot of other options people have thrown at sorcerer have not.
The capstone is unfortunately bonko bugnuts and needs to go. I get what you're trying to do, but turning every single early spell into a cantrip just doesn't fly. Thw wizard's level 18 ability is arguably its real capstone and is one of the best, strongest abilities in the game...and it says "pick exactly ONE first level and exactly ONE second level spell. You get those for free." Sorcerer getting everything they know for free, even of first level alone, would be massively redonkulongle. Maybe rethink that one.
But otherwise you may be on to something. Nice work.
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The only D6 classes are the Wizard and Sorcerer, the majority of casters as D8, it's not about being on the front line, it's about bringing them inline with their peers.
How would it step on the toes of other casters? It's a widely acknowledged issue that they get too few spells (acknowledged by the UAs having additional spells known, even the Xanathar's Origins have an additional spell known (besides the Storm, which came out in the SCAG anyway). Adding two spells to their progression would help player satisfaction without stepping on the toes of anyone (Bard and Wizard still greatly out do them in spells known). The issue with applying metamagic to other casters is not about whether or not people would like it, it's how powerful it is (especially given the extent of SP regeneration your homebrew also provides). Pairing this Sorc with a Wizard would be a very potent and devastating combo, at the very least I'd recommend a clause that only lets you add metamagic on a reaction only if you did not add one to your own spell that round.
Everyone benefits from additional ASIs, casters arguably need them the least. Feats are an optional rule, whilst a common one, you shouldn't base core class design decisions on variant rules.
Your capstone is just straight up more powerful than the 18th and 20th level features the Wizard gets combined, and I don't think you'll find anyone that says that either of those abilites are sub par. You're right they won't have many spells of that level, but you're turning the ones they do into cantrips, not only is this incredibly powerful (even at 20th level it's likely a Sorcerer will still have spells like Shield, Absorb Elements, Misty Step etc.) but it has a knock on effect of making their 1st through 3rd level slots completely useless. This means that those slots will then just get turned into Sorc points, either for far more 4/5 level castings or metamagic on basically every spell they ever cast (when combined with SP regen as proposed).
From a balance standpoint this fix shoots the Sorc well into OP territory.
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Was this necessary to repost elsewhere?
You already posted this here: https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/class-forums/sorcerer/57422-i-made-a-fix-buff-for-the-sorcerer-class#c9
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thats someonelse's thread and the sorcerer forum gets very few views. Plus changes to a class are homebrew thus belong here. I felt my proposed changes also warranted their own thread.
I think your not understanding that using your reaction to something as a caster with only a d6 hit die is a significant resource. Casters typically want to reserve their reaction for shield, counterspell, absorb elements etc... Using a reaction is part of the cost of the ability. I think its the most appropriate way to reintroduce the cooperative casting mechanics and serve as nice little niche ability that would be unique to sorcerers.
As a swap for the capstone how do you feel about they may apply up to 2 metamagic options to a spell they cast and in addition they choose 2 metamagic options they know these metamagic options have their cost reduced by 1 (min 1sp)
Also I don't see how the sp recovery is OP? It would be the weakest recovery mechanic as I pointed out earlier a 3rd lvl warlock's recovery would be the equivalent to an 11th sorcerer under this change.
oops missed your point about spells known. Origin spells are part of the origin/archetype not the core class which is why they aren't included here. I do think the sorcerer needs more spells known but honestly im not sure how many my gut is pushing me in the direction of 2-5 additional spells known.
Keep in mind that sorcerers begin with Constitution saves. They would likely go with either Resilient (Dex) or Resilient (Con). Characters that MC into Sorcerer from a class other than Barbarian (why?), Fighter (more likely), or Artificer (more MAD, but a little more interesting) would be much more interested in that Resilient (Con).
I really like the idea of the Racial spellcasting feats coupled with Sorcerer. Someone had mentioned that they think that a Sorcerer should be able to learn more as they are going. The Racial spellcasting feats really toe the line of "This is something that is learned" and "This is something that happens innately for people of my race". As such, I find it thematically satisfying. The other feats allow for that "Mastery of my innate talents" feel. The only problem with the extra ASIs that I can see: what do they do with them if feats are not a thing in a campaign. With 5 ASIs, you could throw 2 at CHA for max, 2 at Dex or Con for max, and the remaining one at the other defensive stat which likely gets it to 15 or 16, or finishing out the first stat if it didn't start at 16. This is assuming that standard array and optimal racials. The other two could fill out the remaining stat or bump a second tier skill stat, but that might seem dissatisfying that late in the game, particularly for people who rarely get to 19. This would be more aggravating for people who roll really well.
Of course, having those bonus ASIs in the middle of that 11 level section where nothing happens on an odd level except getting the next larger spell slot would potentially change that feeling a little bit. Additionally, the fact that some people might be dissatisfied with having extra ASIs instead of another feature (that doesn't currently exist) shouldn't be the final consideration for implementing something or not. One thing that would have to be considered if those extra ASIs did show up is where would they go. Sorcerer is already a heavy favorite for multiclassing, particularly among Charisma casters. Having that first ASI at 6 might tilt the balance more towards sorcerer having to be a 6 level multiclass detour all the time. Placing the first one at 10 would benefit long term Sorcerers without making it an auto-include for every Charisma Caster. Again, not the end of the world if it does happen, but something worth considering.
It's not as clear cut as that, if you stay in the back and have defensive buffs on (Mirror Image, Blur etc.) then you won't be targeted as much as other characters. Who will the BBEG be going after? The Wizard casting the spell or the Sorcerer buffing it? Is there even a way to tell the Sorcerer is doing that?
That feels like a much more reasonable option for a capstone.
I never meant that the SP on its own was OP, but when you combine it with the capstone it becomes problematic and it is on the higher end of the powerscale. More potent options like Twinned and Quickened spell will be used pretty much every combat multiple times. Warlock is not a fair comparison to make, it's the core of their casting feature whereas SP is primarily fuel for Metas with a conversion option if wanted, they shouldn't be comparable. For reference my fixed sorcerer has Sorcerous Recovery: One short rest per day, you can regain a number of SP equal to half your level rounded up. It's enough to give some longevity to a Sorcerer and make them more fun to play, but has no real potential to get out of hand (consider the implications of yours re: the coffee lock. You get lesser short rest regen sure, but you're not losing out on progression to get it and don't need to go slot>point>slot).
Personally I use one additional spell at 1st level and another at 5th, it allows players to have the essentials and some choice left over without having to resort to cantrips or a crossbow most of the time. It keeps the Sorc well behind in terms of spell known compared to other classes, but helps the Sorc out significantly.
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ok compare it to the wizard whose arcane recovery gives half their level in spell levels on a short rest. At 10th level the wizard can recover a 5th level spell slot. The equivalent for a sorcerer for a 5th level slot is 7 sorcery points. With my proposed change a 10th lvl sorcerer would recover 5 sp. It would take 2 short rests to exceed what WOTC has already deemed appropriate and 2 short rests would combine to the equivalent of a 5th level slot and a 2nd level slot. Im not seeing this as being OP. I did address the coffeelock in the edit I made to the OP btw. Any slots created via font of magic are lost at the next dawn.
That Sorcerer would need someone with keen mind, have the feat, and/or always take the last watch so they could feverishly be working on casting their buff spells with those extra slots that way. For anyone that's not familiar enough with Sorcerer to know off the top of their head, they can never have more sorcerer points than allowed for their level. Extended spell might see a little more use for to extend buffs like Mage Armor to the 24 hour maximum but that doesn't seem like as big of a deal when coffee locks go days hoarding their recovered spells currently.
Edit: Extended spell might be even more of a thing when the sorcerer can affect other characters spells as well. An Extended Hunter's Mark might not be worth it, but 2 hour Warding Bond? Something similar in duration?
For the record I deem Arcane Recovery overkill on the Wizard anyway (the Land Druid is okay as it's essentially all it gets) but to clarify I had not seen that you modified it to make the slots disappear at dawn not a long rest, that gets rid of that concern. Again I don't think that the SP regen is broken on its own, but I think you would need to play test how powerful this would actually make the Sorcerer (heavy metamagic use every encounter or creating a lot more slots than normal). How many short rests do you normally go through in a day in your games?
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Lots of possibilities!
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Generally we see 1-2 short rests on rare occassion as many as 3 it all depends on what is going on in the campaign. In the majority of games I have played in we generally have 1 short rest followed by a long rest. I know that WOTC believes you get IIRC 4 short rests in an adventuring day but in my experience that never happens. I have also played in many games where a short rest is seldom had which can be frustrating. Perhaps we need more info to see just how many short rests is "normal".
1. I wasn't trying to say that it would be a bad thing at all. There are enough opportunities to simply tag on the extra ASI at some point that it would feel like more regardless of how much more it actually was. Not every level will be as exciting for every build. My only concern would be if it was replacing something from the base sorcerer. For fighter and rogue, there isn't anything else that happens at those extra ASIs. The only thing that I can think of off the top of my head that occurs at an ASI level at all would be the Cleric's 8th level Potent Spellcasting or Divine Strike. Having an ASI on the same level as a spell slot upgrade does occur for Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters (19th level). The other levels where the third casters get spell slot upgrades: War Magic for EK and Evasion for AT @ 7th & Indomitable (2 uses) and Versatile Trickster @ 13th. (As an aside and late to the conversation, how horrible is Multiclassing for either third caster if they aren't going into one of the other casters besides the other third caster. It sets them back 2 levels in their spell slot progression.) I do think that having an extra ASI on one of the odd levels where spell slot progression is the only thing that's happening for a Sorcerer could make it more exciting, although that does potentially make more choices that need to be made at that level. As long as it isn't replacing other features, it won't matter if the campaign doesn't allow feats any more than it does for Rogues or Fighters, since it would simply be part of the progression from that point on. Having an option to hard back a feat choice into the class is an intriguing option, particularly if the list is limited. That would necessitate an errata entry any time that something was added to the feats options to either include more feats or exclude more feats (depending on how they chose to limit the list, which I suspect would be an inclusive list), so it isn't without it's downfall either.
2. I have no practical experience with Sorcerer. I haven't been able to play 5e yet and none of my players have chosen to play Sorcerer (could be telling, though I haven't had a rogue or a monk yet either. I've technically had an Artificer, but it was a UA one. Plus, most of my players have been newer.) Admittedly, I haven't been DMing long enough to multiples chosen from classes other than Ranger, Fighter, Cleric, and Druid. That means that most of my thoughts on the subject are theoretical and applied from what I've read from others' experience or trying to apply what I've learned from one of the other classes to Sorcerer. I've had enough practice with trying to apply theories to practical experiences to realize that there are usually some interactions that are completely unforeseen when the variables are as numerous as D&D offers. As such, I was just putting out thoughts that may have been overlooked or not considered. I wasn't expecting all or even many of them to be correct. I didn't consider the effect that losing out on 9th level spells might have, since I've not yet played in a game that has gone high enough to let me see exactly how powerful those spells can be. Additionally, I'm willing to try builds that specialize in areas that would leave many people cringing at how it isn't optimized for things that would normally be the focal points of builds using those classes. Perhaps that's because I haven't had the good fortune to find a game where I can actually play that terrible character and see how bad it can really be ;) It does make sense that most multiclasses would still remain a 1-3 level dip in the off class just to maintain progression in the main class as much as possible, particularly when that might represent 10-30% of the levels that you do take.
I do like the option to choose from more possibilities. I like it even better when those options mean choosing between 2 or more good things. It makes those choices more meaningful. I just don't want to see options given where there is no choice because one choice is clearly better than others. I definitely like some of the ideas that were brought up because I think they could make some of the choices that are typically considered very lackluster to be a valid choice for the right build.