I understand that, according to the rules, a character cannot use hand crossbows (a ranged weapon) for two handed fighting:
When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand. You don't add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative.
If either weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon, instead of making a melee attack with it.
Has anyone house ruled the ability to use two hand crossbows for two weapon fighting? Does their loading property make this impossible or impractical?
Is there something game-breaking about allowing this, if I apply the above rules (second attack doesn't benefit from ability score modifier for damage)?
The ammunition property is the problem, as it requires a free hand to reload a one-handed weapon. In 3.5, there was a repeating crossbow that helps with that, as you can load more than one bolt at a time. The Crossbow Expert feat removes the loading restriction, but not the ammunition property. I don't think it'd be game-breaking to make a house rule or feat that removes the free hand requirement.
That can be countered with an Artificer’s Repeating Shot infusion, however each Artificer can only Infuse one at a time. However, you could accomplish the exact same thing With only one normal Hand Crossbow and the Crossbow Expert Feat, Since a Hand Crossbow is a 1-handed weapon:
Crossbow Expert
Thanks to extensive practice with the crossbow, you gain the following benefits:
You ignore the loading property of crossbows with which you are proficient.
Being within 5 feet of a hostile creature doesn’t impose disadvantage on your ranged attack rolls.
When you use the Attack action and attack with a one-handed weapon, you can use a bonus action to attack with a hand crossbow you are holding.
That can be countered with an Artificer’s Repeating Shot infusion, however each Artificer can only Infuse one at a time. However, you could accomplish the exact same thing With only one normal Hand Crossbow and the Crossbow Expert Feat, Since a Hand Crossbow is a 1-handed weapon:
Crossbow Expert
Thanks to extensive practice with the crossbow, you gain the following benefits:
You ignore the loading property of crossbows with which you are proficient.
Being within 5 feet of a hostile creature doesn’t impose disadvantage on your ranged attack rolls.
When you use the Attack action and attack with a one-handed weapon, you can use a bonus action to attack with a hand crossbow you are holding.
This is where, as a DM, I would just let it go as a house rule. Treat it mechanically as though you've got one crossbow, then for flavor drop in the second one. It's really not game-breaking, and a dual-crossbow wielder is cool.
This is where, as a DM, I would just let it go as a house rule. Treat it mechanically as though you've got one crossbow, then for flavor drop in the second one. It's really not game-breaking, and a dual-crossbow wielder is cool.
Hand crossbows are the only ranged weapon listed in PHB with the “light” characteristic which means it can be held and fired with one hand. Unfortunately, because they are ranged weapons, they do not qualify for the Two Weapon Fighting feature because the rule specifically states that the weapons must be melee weapons.
The only way to do two weapon fighting with two hand crossbows is to take the Crossbow Expert feat.
The ammunition property is the problem, as it requires a free hand to reload a one-handed weapon.
...
There is no free hand requirement for reloading. The actual rule only states a time restriction as a reason for not firing a single weapon twice. It says nothing of firing two weapons once each. And as I stated above, the only ranged weapon that you could possibly hold two of are hand crossbows because of the “light” characteristic.
As for the Crossbow Expert feat, it doesn’t make sense to me to say that it “ignore[s] the loading property of crossbows” because you can still only fire each one once. Unless this feat now means that you can reload on the same turn and fire it twice, which I don’t think it does. But only this feat allows firing two hand crossbows in one turn according to RAW.
Read the ammunition property, "you need a free hand to load a one-handed weapon". Yes the hand crossbow has both the light property and what's basically the two-handed property. I guess you could shoot it, then drop it and pick up a second already pre-loaded crossbow and shoot that?
Unless this feat now means that you can reload on the same turn and fire it twice, which I don’t think it does. But only this feat allows firing two hand crossbows in one turn according to RAW.
Read the feat- it allows you to shoot a hand-crossbow as a bonus action after making a attack. Note it does not say they need to be different crossbows.
The feat allows you to shoot a single hand crossbow twice in a single turn, and then twice again on your next turn, etc. until your out of ammo. You can do this because while the light handed crossbow requires two hands, your only holding one light crossbow so you have 2 hands.
However, if you have two one-handed crossbows, you can only shoot twice and then you can't shoot anymore because you don't have two hands. So yes I would do a HB rule that states that Crossbow Expert allows you to load a weapon without using a free hand.
Edit: You can do the bonus action attack after a non-crossbow attack, I think the feat was actually supposed to be used with a sword in one hand and a crossbow in the other, hence why it doesn't really work with two hand crossbows. Although- you would still have to sheath the sword after doing the sword attack to load the crossbow.
The Light Crossbow is “light” in name only, it does not actually have that light weapon property. It has the ammunition, and loading, properties, as well as the two-handed property.
The Crossbow Expert feat let’s you ignore the loading property, but not the ammunition property which requires a free hand to load the weapons. With the Crossbow Expert feat you can only fire a Light Crossbow or a Heavy Crossbow more than once per turn if you have the Extra Attack class feature and only because the feat lets you ignore the loading property.
If you have a Hand Crossbow and the Extra Attack class feature then you can also fire that more than once per turn as well. In addition you can fire it as a bonus action on your turn if you have made an attack with a light, One-Handed weapon. Since a Hand Crossbow is both of those things, if you fired it as part of the Attack action, then you can also fire it as a bonus action too.
But technically, RAW, if you are holding two Hand Crossbows you can fire them each once and then must drop or put away one of them to free a hand to load the other. So technically, RAW, if you have the Extra Attack feature and are holding two Hand Crossbows then you can fire them both, and then must drop one to load the other to fire it as a Bonus Action, but if you only hold one then you can fire it three times (including bonus action) no problem.
So, since it really doesn’t make all that much difference many DMs allow the double wielding of hand crossbows for thematic reasons, even though it is technically less efficient than just using one.
Fixed it, was saying both "Hand Crossbow" and "Light Crossbow" to refer to the same weapon (the hand crossbow), because I forgot the light crossbow was a actual weapon and was using it as a shorthand to refer to the crossbow that had the light property.
Rest of my post is fine it seems- thanks for the correction.
The ammunition property states that "Each time you attack with the weapon, you expend one piece of ammunition. Drawing the ammunition from a quiver, case, or other container is PART OF THE ATTACK (you need a free hand to load a one-handed weapon)."
Think that means the weapons can't be pre loaded before an attack. It's the DM's discretion though.
Two-Weapon Fighting (When you take the Attack action and attack with a light MELEE weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a DIFFERENT light MELEE weapon that you're holding in the other hand. You don't add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative. If either weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon, instead of making a melee attack with it.
That sadly means an Artificer Battle Smith can't make two attacks with a Repeating Shot hand crossbow and bonus action attack (Two-Weapon Fighting) with a Returning Weapon handaxe, because both Weapons have to be Melee Weapons. It would be a cool visual to imagine a "van Helsing" type character weilding an Axe and a Crossbow.
Wrong one, we talking about the feat that allows you to shoot a hand crossbow as a bonus action (Edit: ofc as long as your holding a light weapon, but hey it only says "at least one" and one hand cross bow is at least one light weapon so...). NOT two-weapon fighting.
So, because of the errata for Ammunition which added the phrase, “...(you need a free hand to load a one-handed weapon),” all weapons that have the ammunition designation are now effectively (but not technically) two-handed weapons even though they aren’t listed as two-handed on the weapons table. That sucks.
However, with the Crossbow Expert Feat, and specific rules beating general rules, I would say that being a crossbow expert is the only way to wield a second hand crossbow and be able to fire both on the same turn. The first being fired as an action and the second as a bonus action. Because there was another piece of errata that changed “loaded hand crossbow” in the third benefit of the feat which now reads, “When you use the Attack action and attack with a one handed weapon [which a hand crossbow still is, technically], you can use a bonus action to attack with a hand crossbow you are holding.“ This feat, can be used every turn which clearly eliminates the need for a “...free hand to load...” because your first hand is obviously using another one-handed weapon, whether it is a sword or another hand crossbow.
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I understand that, according to the rules, a character cannot use hand crossbows (a ranged weapon) for two handed fighting:
Has anyone house ruled the ability to use two hand crossbows for two weapon fighting? Does their loading property make this impossible or impractical?
Is there something game-breaking about allowing this, if I apply the above rules (second attack doesn't benefit from ability score modifier for damage)?
The ammunition property is the problem, as it requires a free hand to reload a one-handed weapon. In 3.5, there was a repeating crossbow that helps with that, as you can load more than one bolt at a time. The Crossbow Expert feat removes the loading restriction, but not the ammunition property. I don't think it'd be game-breaking to make a house rule or feat that removes the free hand requirement.
I wasn't aware of the ammunition property! Good to know.
That can be countered with an Artificer’s Repeating Shot infusion, however each Artificer can only Infuse one at a time. However, you could accomplish the exact same thing With only one normal Hand Crossbow and the Crossbow Expert Feat, Since a Hand Crossbow is a 1-handed weapon:
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This is where, as a DM, I would just let it go as a house rule. Treat it mechanically as though you've got one crossbow, then for flavor drop in the second one. It's really not game-breaking, and a dual-crossbow wielder is cool.
Exactly. I agree 100%
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Hand crossbows are the only ranged weapon listed in PHB with the “light” characteristic which means it can be held and fired with one hand. Unfortunately, because they are ranged weapons, they do not qualify for the Two Weapon Fighting feature because the rule specifically states that the weapons must be melee weapons.
The only way to do two weapon fighting with two hand crossbows is to take the Crossbow Expert feat.
There is no free hand requirement for reloading. The actual rule only states a time restriction as a reason for not firing a single weapon twice. It says nothing of firing two weapons once each. And as I stated above, the only ranged weapon that you could possibly hold two of are hand crossbows because of the “light” characteristic.
As for the Crossbow Expert feat, it doesn’t make sense to me to say that it “ignore[s] the loading property of crossbows” because you can still only fire each one once. Unless this feat now means that you can reload on the same turn and fire it twice, which I don’t think it does. But only this feat allows firing two hand crossbows in one turn according to RAW.
(emphasis mine)
Read the ammunition property, "you need a free hand to load a one-handed weapon". Yes the hand crossbow has both the light property and what's basically the two-handed property. I guess you could shoot it, then drop it and pick up a second already pre-loaded crossbow and shoot that?
Read the feat- it allows you to shoot a hand-crossbow as a bonus action after making a attack. Note it does not say they need to be different crossbows.
The feat allows you to shoot a single hand crossbow twice in a single turn, and then twice again on your next turn, etc. until your out of ammo. You can do this because while the light handed crossbow requires two hands, your only holding one light crossbow so you have 2 hands.
However, if you have two one-handed crossbows, you can only shoot twice and then you can't shoot anymore because you don't have two hands. So yes I would do a HB rule that states that Crossbow Expert allows you to load a weapon without using a free hand.
Edit: You can do the bonus action attack after a non-crossbow attack, I think the feat was actually supposed to be used with a sword in one hand and a crossbow in the other, hence why it doesn't really work with two hand crossbows. Although- you would still have to sheath the sword after doing the sword attack to load the crossbow.
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
You have made some mistakes:
There are three different types of crossbow- crossbow, hand, crossbow, light, crossbow, heavy.
The Hand Crossbow has the light, ammunition, and loading properties.
The Light Crossbow is “light” in name only, it does not actually have that light weapon property. It has the ammunition, and loading, properties, as well as the two-handed property.
The Heavy Crossbow has the ammunition, loading, and two-handed properties, and also adds the heavy property too.
The Crossbow Expert feat let’s you ignore the loading property, but not the ammunition property which requires a free hand to load the weapons. With the Crossbow Expert feat you can only fire a Light Crossbow or a Heavy Crossbow more than once per turn if you have the Extra Attack class feature and only because the feat lets you ignore the loading property.
If you have a Hand Crossbow and the Extra Attack class feature then you can also fire that more than once per turn as well. In addition you can fire it as a bonus action on your turn if you have made an attack with a light, One-Handed weapon. Since a Hand Crossbow is both of those things, if you fired it as part of the Attack action, then you can also fire it as a bonus action too.
But technically, RAW, if you are holding two Hand Crossbows you can fire them each once and then must drop or put away one of them to free a hand to load the other. So technically, RAW, if you have the Extra Attack feature and are holding two Hand Crossbows then you can fire them both, and then must drop one to load the other to fire it as a Bonus Action, but if you only hold one then you can fire it three times (including bonus action) no problem.
So, since it really doesn’t make all that much difference many DMs allow the double wielding of hand crossbows for thematic reasons, even though it is technically less efficient than just using one.
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Fixed it, was saying both "Hand Crossbow" and "Light Crossbow" to refer to the same weapon (the hand crossbow), because I forgot the light crossbow was a actual weapon and was using it as a shorthand to refer to the crossbow that had the light property.
Rest of my post is fine it seems- thanks for the correction.
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
The ammunition property states that "Each time you attack with the weapon, you expend one piece of ammunition. Drawing the ammunition from a quiver, case, or other container is PART OF THE ATTACK (you need a free hand to load a one-handed weapon)."
Think that means the weapons can't be pre loaded before an attack. It's the DM's discretion though.
Two-Weapon Fighting (When you take the Attack action and attack with a light MELEE weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a DIFFERENT light MELEE weapon that you're holding in the other hand. You don't add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative. If either weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon, instead of making a melee attack with it.
That sadly means an Artificer Battle Smith can't make two attacks with a Repeating Shot hand crossbow and bonus action attack (Two-Weapon Fighting) with a Returning Weapon handaxe, because both Weapons have to be Melee Weapons. It would be a cool visual to imagine a "van Helsing" type character weilding an Axe and a Crossbow.
Wrong one, we talking about the feat that allows you to shoot a hand crossbow as a bonus action (Edit: ofc as long as your holding a light weapon, but hey it only says "at least one" and one hand cross bow is at least one light weapon so...). NOT two-weapon fighting.
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
So, because of the errata for Ammunition which added the phrase, “...(you need a free hand to load a one-handed weapon),” all weapons that have the ammunition designation are now effectively (but not technically) two-handed weapons even though they aren’t listed as two-handed on the weapons table. That sucks.
However, with the Crossbow Expert Feat, and specific rules beating general rules, I would say that being a crossbow expert is the only way to wield a second hand crossbow and be able to fire both on the same turn. The first being fired as an action and the second as a bonus action. Because there was another piece of errata that changed “loaded hand crossbow” in the third benefit of the feat which now reads, “When you use the Attack action and attack with a one handed weapon [which a hand crossbow still is, technically], you can use a bonus action to attack with a hand crossbow you are holding.“ This feat, can be used every turn which clearly eliminates the need for a “...free hand to load...” because your first hand is obviously using another one-handed weapon, whether it is a sword or another hand crossbow.