I'm working on yet another homebrew version of the Lore Master wizard. Here's the level 2 ability I'm working on:
Secret Lore
At 2nd level when you pick the Lore Mastery school, your Proficiency Bonus is doubled for Intelligence (Arcana) checks and for one other Intelligence-based skill of your choice that you already have proficiency with.
I've created Secret Lore feature and added a modifier "Expertise - Arcana", then defined options for History, Investigation, Nature and Religion doing the same thing. They show up correctly and I can select them in my test character.
The issue is that as soon as I get Secret Lore, it pops up this message:
Class Feature Proficiency Removed
The Arcana proficiency was removed from the "Proficiencies" class feature. Choose a new proficiency skill in the Class section.
And sure enough, looking back at the level 1 Wizard choices, Arcana is no longer listed as an option there. If I choose an option for the second Secret Lore skill, for example Investigation, the same thing occurs with that skill.
This is supposed to double the proficiency bonus on a skill that I'm already proficient with, not grant me a new proficiency. It's effectively giving me back a proficiency slot from the class, for no readily apparent reason that I can see. What have I done wrong here?
There is no modifier type called "Double Proficiency."
Perhaps you were thinking of Twice Proficiency? I tried that first, actually. It appears to function identically to Expertise, i.e. it removes the existing proficiency selection, grants a new one and doubles it.
I found a thread on a similar topic where someone was trying to achieve basically the same thing using Twice Proficiency, and a D&D Beyond staff member (B Stormknight) said:
The "expertise - choose a skill" modifier is used by various classes and works correctly whenever I've used it.
"Twice Proficiency" grants proficiency and uses double the value (effectively granting proficiency and expertise in one go) - if you select this for a proficiency that the character already has, it will free up the proficiency in the way you described.
The original poster in that thread reported that their issue was solved, but that the resolution was "weird" -- I'm guessing it fixed itself but they didn't understand why or how.
So ... anyway, I'm not really sure what's going on. In my testing, Expertise and Twice Proficiency both appeared to replace the existing proficiency. I'm not sure what the distinction between them is.
Is there lag time between saving a class feature and having it affect characters using that subclass? Do I need to rebuild the test PC each time I make a change to the class in order to pick up new changes? At one point while working on this last night I changed the name of a class feature, went to my test PC, removed levels and added them back in, only to discover it was still offering me the old name for the class feature.
If there's a lag like that, it's possible that Expertise is working fine but the test PC is still using Twice Proficiency from the earlier revision.
This actually seems like it's working as intended; it has to do with the fact that you're setting expertise on a specific skill (Arcana). What you're essentially doing is setting that skill to double proficiency regardless of whether the character is already proficient or not.
Consider two characters:
Fluff Ganderblast chooses to be proficient in History and Insight. At level 2 they gain double proficiency in Arcana, they now have a total of three proficiencies (Arcana, History and Insight).
Mezzanine Prim chooses to be proficient in Arcana and History. At level 2 they gain double proficiency in Arcana, they still only have a total of two proficiencies (Arcana and History), so need to choose a third.
Basically if Mezzanine Prim wasn't asked to re-select a 1st level proficiency they'd be down one proficiency compared to Fluff Ganderblast.
It seems a little confusing at first because the way that Expertise normally works is that you choose a skill in which you are already proficient to upgrade to double proficiency, this way you never gain one, only enhance what you already have.
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Hmm. Well, enhancing what I already have was kind of the goal. I don't think my GM would be down with essentially giving me double proficiency on two skills and also getting to add two new proficiencies. That's way too much. Particularly since the same problem would pop up at level 6 when the subclass allows for 2 more double-proficiency skills, only this time they can be any skill rather than just INT ones.
Perhaps I could just set it up as a static bonus. That is, hard-code in a +2 bonus on the two skills I actually want at level 2, then when my proficiency bonus goes up I just have to remember to go back and update the subclass to increase that bonus to match. Obviously I'd never get to publish the subclass, but I wasn't planning on that anyway.
That will give the player the option of a skill in which they are already proficient to increase. As long you are okay with listing it in the txt and trusting them to choose Arcana and another Int skill, it’s the closest I think you can get.
Happy to help. That’s the same modifier they use for Rogues and Bards for their class expertises so it is designed to enhance, not replace. Should do ya just fine.
I'm working on yet another homebrew version of the Lore Master wizard. Here's the level 2 ability I'm working on:
I've created Secret Lore feature and added a modifier "Expertise - Arcana", then defined options for History, Investigation, Nature and Religion doing the same thing. They show up correctly and I can select them in my test character.
The issue is that as soon as I get Secret Lore, it pops up this message:
And sure enough, looking back at the level 1 Wizard choices, Arcana is no longer listed as an option there. If I choose an option for the second Secret Lore skill, for example Investigation, the same thing occurs with that skill.
This is supposed to double the proficiency bonus on a skill that I'm already proficient with, not grant me a new proficiency. It's effectively giving me back a proficiency slot from the class, for no readily apparent reason that I can see. What have I done wrong here?
Instead of “Expertise”, try “Double Proficiency” as the modifier.
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There is no modifier type called "Double Proficiency."
Perhaps you were thinking of Twice Proficiency? I tried that first, actually. It appears to function identically to Expertise, i.e. it removes the existing proficiency selection, grants a new one and doubles it.
I found a thread on a similar topic where someone was trying to achieve basically the same thing using Twice Proficiency, and a D&D Beyond staff member (B Stormknight) said:
The original poster in that thread reported that their issue was solved, but that the resolution was "weird" -- I'm guessing it fixed itself but they didn't understand why or how.
So ... anyway, I'm not really sure what's going on. In my testing, Expertise and Twice Proficiency both appeared to replace the existing proficiency. I'm not sure what the distinction between them is.
Is there lag time between saving a class feature and having it affect characters using that subclass? Do I need to rebuild the test PC each time I make a change to the class in order to pick up new changes? At one point while working on this last night I changed the name of a class feature, went to my test PC, removed levels and added them back in, only to discover it was still offering me the old name for the class feature.
If there's a lag like that, it's possible that Expertise is working fine but the test PC is still using Twice Proficiency from the earlier revision.
This actually seems like it's working as intended; it has to do with the fact that you're setting expertise on a specific skill (Arcana). What you're essentially doing is setting that skill to double proficiency regardless of whether the character is already proficient or not.
Consider two characters:
Basically if Mezzanine Prim wasn't asked to re-select a 1st level proficiency they'd be down one proficiency compared to Fluff Ganderblast.
It seems a little confusing at first because the way that Expertise normally works is that you choose a skill in which you are already proficient to upgrade to double proficiency, this way you never gain one, only enhance what you already have.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Hmm. Well, enhancing what I already have was kind of the goal. I don't think my GM would be down with essentially giving me double proficiency on two skills and also getting to add two new proficiencies. That's way too much. Particularly since the same problem would pop up at level 6 when the subclass allows for 2 more double-proficiency skills, only this time they can be any skill rather than just INT ones.
Perhaps I could just set it up as a static bonus. That is, hard-code in a +2 bonus on the two skills I actually want at level 2, then when my proficiency bonus goes up I just have to remember to go back and update the subclass to increase that bonus to match. Obviously I'd never get to publish the subclass, but I wasn't planning on that anyway.
If you use
Modifier: Expertise->Subtype: Choose Rogue Expertise
That will give the player the option of a skill in which they are already proficient to increase. As long you are okay with listing it in the txt and trusting them to choose Arcana and another Int skill, it’s the closest I think you can get.
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I'll give that a try, thanks!
I am the player in this case, and I have no intention of abusing it, so that should work, I hope.
Happy to help. That’s the same modifier they use for Rogues and Bards for their class expertises so it is designed to enhance, not replace. Should do ya just fine.
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