the fluff of where their power is derived, via eldrich knowledge an wizard would be too afraid to read, forbidden and dark magic they acquired from less than reputable sources, is exactly the same as how an warlock is supposed to work (according to the player's handbook and xanatar's guide to everything) minus an warlock having an patron that might occasionally assist them in their research and provide them a small handful of supernatural powers that cannot be gained by research alone. Perhaps you can mention something about how warlocks and occultists relate to and think about eachother in the fluff, let the occultist choose eldrich invocations (since those are a warlock feature gained purely from your own research with little to no intervention to your patron), have an path option akin to the order of the profane soul or perhaps just try to distance the two classes a bit more in how they are supposed to derive their spells
These don't have to practice dark magic, though. That's only 1/3 of the path choices for this class. These are definitely separated from Warlocks and Wizards. In theme, they're kind of like a mix of Warlocks, Wizards, and Clerics, but they're more practitioners of unknown and eldritch lore than forbidden or dark. They don't serve any patrons, don't go to Wizard school, and don't worship any deity or demigod.
the fluff of where their power is derived, via eldrich knowledge an wizard would be too afraid to read, forbidden and dark magic they acquired from less than reputable sources, is exactly the same as how an warlock is supposed to work (according to the player's handbook and xanatar's guide to everything) minus an warlock having an patron that might occasionally assist them in their research and provide them a small handful of supernatural powers that cannot be gained by research alone. Perhaps you can mention something about how warlocks and occultists relate to and think about eachother in the fluff, let the occultist choose eldrich invocations (since those are a warlock feature gained purely from your own research with little to no intervention to your patron), have an path option akin to the order of the profane soul or perhaps just try to distance the two classes a bit more in how they are supposed to derive their spells
These don't have to practice dark magic, though. That's only 1/3 of the path choices for this class. These are definitely separated from Warlocks and Wizards. It theme, they're kind of like a mix of Warlocks, Wizards, and Clerics, but they're more practitioners of unknown and eldritch lore than forbidden or dark. They don't serve any patrons, don't go to Wizard school, and don't worship any deity or demigod.
the fluff of where their power is derived, via eldrich knowledge an wizard would be too afraid to read, forbidden and dark magic they acquired from less than reputable sources, is exactly the same as how an warlock is supposed to work (according to the player's handbook and xanatar's guide to everything) minus an warlock having an patron that might occasionally assist them in their research and provide them a small handful of supernatural powers that cannot be gained by research alone. Perhaps you can mention something about how warlocks and occultists relate to and think about eachother in the fluff, let the occultist choose eldrich invocations (since those are a warlock feature gained purely from your own research with little to no intervention to your patron), have an path option akin to the order of the profane soul or perhaps just try to distance the two classes a bit more in how they are supposed to derive their spells
These don't have to practice dark magic, though. That's only 1/3 of the path choices for this class. These are definitely separated from Warlocks and Wizards. In theme, they're kind of like a mix of Warlocks, Wizards, and Clerics, but they're more practitioners of unknown and eldritch lore than forbidden or dark. They don't serve any patrons, don't go to Wizard school, and don't worship any deity or demigod.
yes, just like how an warlock can make an pact with an celestial being from the upper planes or derive some of their eldrich knowledge from any alignment of archfae, from a lore perspective these fellows should have a lot in common with their patron-serving cousins, to quote xanatar's guide here "warlocks are the finders and keepers of secrets. They push at the edge of our understanding of the world, always seeking to expand their expertise. Where sages and wizards heed a clear sign of danger and end their research, a warlock plunges ahead, heedless of the cost". Their eldrich invocations are nether good nor evil, just eldrich and arcane. Like i see the aestetic you are going for and clearly it is something that cannot really be delivered as effectively with an wizard or an warlock character, but the way you have explained their powers makes it seem like warlocks and occultists should have more in common, as if the warlock is just an more narrow offshoot of the occultist class. Like you can at least have some token mention of them in the fluff like "occultists despise warlocks becuase of their pacts", "warlocks who loose their patron often become occultists since it feels so familiar to them" or "warlocks and occultists sometimes meet by accident while looking for obscure arcane lore and researching ancient curses, when they do they often act competitively, even more so than when in the presence of another member of their class"
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yes, just like how an warlock can make an pact with an celestial being from the upper planes or derive some of their eldrich knowledge from any alignment of archfae, from a lore perspective these fellows should have a lot in common with their patron-serving cousins, to quote xanatar's guide here "warlocks are the finders and keepers of secrets. They push at the edge of our understanding of the world, always seeking to expand their expertise. Where sages and wizards heed a clear sign of danger and end their research, a warlock plunges ahead, heedless of the cost". Their eldrich invocations are nether good nor evil, just eldrich and arcane. Like i see the aestetic you are going for and clearly it is something that cannot really be delivered as effectively with an wizard or an warlock character, but the way you have explained their powers makes it seem like warlocks and occultists should have more in common, as if the warlock is just an more narrow offshoot of the occultist class. Like you can at least have some token mention of them in the fluff like "occultists despise warlocks becuase of their pacts", "warlocks who loose their patron often become occultists since it feels so familiar to them" or "warlocks and occultists sometimes meet by accident while looking for obscure arcane lore and researching ancient curses, when they do they often act competitively, even more so than when in the presence of another member of their class"
Maybe 5e just did a bad job at defining Warlocks. Warlocks are pact-makers. Sure, they might learn secret magic and "taboo/forbidden" spells and research stuff about the cosmos and extraplanar entities, but that's not the purpose of a Warlock. A warlock uses their fairly limited arcane knowledge to make a pact with an otherworldly power, normally only using their knowledge to summon or contact this creature. They may have come across certain interesting parts of lore during their studies and searchings, but they are not occultists. They're as much cousins to each other as wizards are to warlocks.
5e warlocks are poorly defined. IMO, they should be people who "cheat" to get arcane magic and power, instead of followers of the occult and knowledge-keeping eldritch mages.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Alrighty Third. I’m planning on finally getting to this today when I get home. I keep trying when I’m on my phone, but the formatting sucks because of the display size even in landscape. That table is unreadable to me when it’s all scrunched up. And I have three pages of notes to sort through too. Do you want me to be some of that “more feedback” or do you want me to wait for the latest draft that you’re planning?
Alrighty Third. I’m planning on finally getting to this today when I get home. I keep trying when I’m on my phone, but the formatting sucks because of the display size even in landscape. That table is unreadable to me when it’s all scrunched up. And I have three pages of notes to sort through too. Do you want me to be some of that “more feedback” or do you want me to wait for the latest draft that you’re planning?
For your health and safety, do not type out anything that long on your phone. Please.
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A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
Alrighty Third. I’m planning on finally getting to this today when I get home. I keep trying when I’m on my phone, but the formatting sucks because of the display size even in landscape. That table is unreadable to me when it’s all scrunched up. And I have three pages of notes to sort through too. Do you want me to be some of that “more feedback” or do you want me to wait for the latest draft that you’re planning?
For your health and safety, do not type out anything that long on your phone. Please.
I hate to tell you, but about 90% of everything I do on DDB is on my phone. Including my homebrews.
Alrighty Third. I’m planning on finally getting to this today when I get home. I keep trying when I’m on my phone, but the formatting sucks because of the display size even in landscape. That table is unreadable to me when it’s all scrunched up. And I have three pages of notes to sort through too. Do you want me to be some of that “more feedback” or do you want me to wait for the latest draft that you’re planning?
I was already waiting for Goodbovine to give their feedback, and at this point I will probably not be able to complete a new draft before you get home. I would love to hear your thoughts first, and then create a new draft with the feedback.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Alrighty Third. I’m planning on finally getting to this today when I get home. I keep trying when I’m on my phone, but the formatting sucks because of the display size even in landscape. That table is unreadable to me when it’s all scrunched up. And I have three pages of notes to sort through too. Do you want me to be some of that “more feedback” or do you want me to wait for the latest draft that you’re planning?
For your health and safety, do not type out anything that long on your phone. Please.
I hate to tell you, but about 90% of everything I do on DDB is on my phone. Including my homebrews.
How do you still have hands? I can't type anything longer than a paragraph on a phone.
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A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
Alrighty Third. I’m planning on finally getting to this today when I get home. I keep trying when I’m on my phone, but the formatting sucks because of the display size even in landscape. That table is unreadable to me when it’s all scrunched up. And I have three pages of notes to sort through too. Do you want me to be some of that “more feedback” or do you want me to wait for the latest draft that you’re planning?
For your health and safety, do not type out anything that long on your phone. Please.
I hate to tell you, but about 90% of everything I do on DDB is on my phone. Including my homebrews.
How do you still have hands? I can't type anything longer than a paragraph on a phone.
I hope you did your first post introducing the occultist class in your computer. Because if you didn't.......
I finally got around to looking at the whole class.
Just to clarify - the grimoire is for ritual spells that you copy using the wizard rules, and then you prepare spells from the list, right? I had to read that a couple times.
I didn't look at the entire spell list, but what I saw looks good.
I love the path idea, and all of the features for that look good.
Can't wait to see the subclasses and charms.
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Please check out my homebrew and give me feedback!
Okay, so.... I eventually had to chop off the right 2/3 of the table (one row at a time) to get to read any of the feature names. Since I am not looking at that as I write this, I am assuming that it is the same as the standard full caster progression when it comes to spell slots. That was what it looked like at first anyway.
Occultist
LEVEL
PROFICIENCY BONUS
FEATURES
CANTRIPS KNOWN
1st
+2
Spellcasting, Magic Line
4
2nd
+2
Unearthly Path
4
3rd
+2
Coven Magic, Binding Charms
4
4th
+2
Ability Score Improvement
4
5th
+3
─
4
6th
+3
─
4
7th
+3
Magic Line feature
4
8th
+3
Ability Score Improvement
4
9th
+4
─
4
10th
+4
─
4
11th
+4
Magic Line feature
4
12th
+4
Ability Score Improvement
4
13th
+5
─
4
14th
+5
Improved Coven Magic
4
15th
+5
Magic Line feature
4
16th
+5
Ability Score Improvement
4
17th
+6
─
4
18th
+6
─
4
19th
+6
Unearthly Powers
4
20th
+6
Occult Mage
4
Armor: None Weapons: Simple weapons Tools: Brewers' Tools or Alchemists' Supplies Saving Throws: Intelligence, Charisma Skills: Choose two from Arcana, Deception, Insight, Intimidation, Investigation, Persuasion, Deception, Sleight of Hand
Okay, Right off the bat, drop Intelligence for Wisdom. Every single class in 5e has one save the is Dex/Con/Wis and the other is always one of the other three. That is because for so many more things, the save is Dex, or Con, or Wis than the other three combined. Plus, I think Int is all wrong for this Class anyway.
You give a choice of two tool proficiencies, but I would either add the Herbalism Kit to that list, or swap out Alchemy and swap in Herbalism. Every IRL Witch I have ever known (and that's more than one might think, heck I dated two and married a third), they all us herbs and none of them has ever used anything that I would call Alchemy. Also, for Skills you have Deception on there twice and I would drop both of them.
Equipment
You start with the following equipment, in addition to the equipment granted by your background:
any simple weapon of your choice
(a) a component pouch or (b) a trinket or (c) an arcane focus
(a) a scholar's pack or (b) an explorer's pack
A grimoire
Spellcasting
As a practitioner of arcane magic, you have a grimoire containing spells that allow you to channel your dark spells.
Cantrips
At 1st level, you know four cantrips of your choice from the witch spell list. You learn additional witch cantrips of your choice at higher levels, as shown in the Cantrips Known column of the Occultist table.
The table I'm looking at just says 4 all the way down the whole column.
Grimoire
At 1st level, you have 2 occultist spells that have the ritual tag written in your grimoire. Your grimoire is where you write your ritual spells, and can cast those spells only while holding your grimoire. If you cast a ritual spell from your grimoire as its original casting time, you don't need to prepare that spell, and must be holding your grimoire at the time of the casting. You cannot prepare spells that have the ritual tag, and can only prepare spells that are not in your grimoire.
(Copying ritual spells into the book functions as copying a spell into a spellbook from the wizard sidebar.)
The language here is pretty rough. I've read it four times and still keep tripping over it. I think you need to flavor it to give it some context, and definitely revise the language to have fewer negatives in there, it will make it easier to read. Like, for instance you state that only Rituals can go into the Grimiore, and that you cannot prepare ritual spells. Why do you need the last part about only preparing spells not in the grimoire?
Preparing and Casting Spells
The Occultist table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your witch spells. To cast one of your witch spells of 1st level or higher, you must expend a spell slot of the spell's level or higher. You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a long rest. You prepare the list of occultist spells that are available for you to cast, choosing from the occultist spell list. When you do so, choose an amount of occultist spells equal to your Intelligence modifier + your witch level. These spells must be of a level that you have spell slots. For example, if you’re a 3rd-level witch, you have four 1st-level and two 2nd-level spell slots. With a Intelligence of 16, your list of prepared spells can include six spells of 1st or 2nd level, in any combination, chosen from your spell list. If you prepare the 1st-level spell hex, you can cast it using a 1st-level or a 2nd-level slot. Casting the spell doesn’t remove it from your list of prepared spells.
You can change your list of prepared spells when you finish a long rest. Preparing a new list of occultist spells requires time spent doing dark rites using your spellcasting focus and grimoire: at least 1 minute per spell level for each spell on your list.
You keep going back and fourth between Occultist and Witch here. Needs an edit. And again, I think Wis is a better fit than Int.
Spellcasting Ability
Intelligence is your spellcasting ability for your occultist spells: your understanding of the dark threads of magic allow you to wield these spells with superior skill. You use your Intelligence whenever a occultist spell refers to your spellcasting ability. In addition, you use your Intelligence modifier when setting the saving throw DC for an occultist spell you cast and when making an attack roll with one.
Spell save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Intelligence modifier
Spell attack modifier = your proficiency bonus + your Intelligence modifier
Ritual Casting
You can cast a occultist spell as a ritual if that spell has the ritual tag and is written in your grimoire.
Spellcasting Focus
You can use an arcane focus or any of the following items as a spellcasting focus for your witch spells; lantern, crystal ball, candle, needle, a jar, a bottle, fragment of obsidian, or a skull.
Magic Line
At 1st level, you choose your favored source of magic. You can focus on one specific archetype of magic, allowing you to gain more power in that specific field of magic. Choose from one of the ways to focus your magic: Blood Line, Bone Magic, Familiar Magic, Morph Magic, Earth Magic, Light Magic, Dark Magic, and Mixture Magic, all detailed at the end of the class description.
Your choice grants you features at 1st level, and again at 7th, 11th, and 15th level.
I don't like those Subclass names. (In fact, I'm not really sold on "Magic Line" as a name either.) But honestly, I don't think I like the concepts that these names convey to me. Blood Line is too "Sorcerous" for me. And what the heck is "Bone Magic" supposed to mean? I don't get it. Where do those come from? You started out to do a "Witches but not Witches" class. I think some of these aren't jelling to that idea for me personally. Maybe its because I have no idea what your ideas are?
"Familiar Magic seems too much like the Pact Boon, and I think they should all be able to have Familiars. The same with "Mixtures," I think that makes sense for all Occultists, I thought that was why Brewers Tools were on their proficiency list. When I think of Witches, I think Familiars, I think Herbs and Candles, and I think of a bubbling cauldron over a fire. Everything else may get interchanged from interpretation to Interpretation, but those are fairly common to all of the archetypes of "Witchiness."
Also, I had absolutely no idea whatsoever that there was any relationship between your Magic Line and any sort of color whatsoever until I got down to Binding Charms. This definitely needs more descriptive narrative.
Unearthly Path
At level 2, you choose the type of magic that fuels your spells and other occult abilities, ranging from dark aberrant powers to light blessing magic. Pick one of the following paths: Black Path, Grey Path, or White Path. Those who practice dark magic typically lean towards evil arts and tempted by darker beings, practitioners of grey magic normally are neutral and empower themselves, while studiers white magic support their allies and are most often good.
When you choose your Unearthly Path, you gain an ability listed below, corresponding to the path you choose.
Dark Malediction
You gain resistance to necrotic damage, as well as the ability to put a malignant curse on another creature. As a bonus action, curse one enemy you can see within 60 feet of you. They remain cursed for 1 minute or until they die. While cursed this way, they gain the following detrimental effects:
They gain one exhaustion.
They take extra damage from your spells and attacks equal to your Intelligence modifier (minimum of one damage).
They have disadvantage on the first attack roll they make on each of their turns.
They cannot make reactions.
Once you use this feature, you cannot do so again until you finish a short or long rest.
Additionally, you gain the following list of spells. These spells count as occultist spells for you, and don't count against the amount of occultist spells you can normally prepare.
You gain resistance to force damage, as well as the ability to shield and empower yourself from others' harmful effects. As a bonus action, you can surround yourself in a pale aura of protecting energy. This ward lasts for 1 minute or until you drop to 0 hit points, and grants you the following effects:
You gain an amount of temporary hit points equal to your occultist level + your Intelligence modifier (minimum of 1 hit point).
When you make a saving throw against an effect that would damage you, you may use your reaction to make the saving throw at advantage.
You have advantage on ability checks made on your turn.
Once you use this feature, you cannot do so again until you take a short or long rest.
Additionally, you gain the following list of spells. These spells count as occultist spells for you, and don't count against the amount of occultist spells you can normally prepare.
You gain resistance to radiant damage, as well as the ability to bestow a beneficial charm upon an ally or yourself. As a bonus action, choose one willing creature within 60 feet of you (including yourself) to give this blessing to. This blessing lasts for 1 minute or until the blessed creature drops to 0 hit points, granting them the following benefits:
Attack rolls made to attack that creature are made at disadvantage.
They regain an amount of hit points at the start of each of their turns equal to your proficiency bonus.
They have advantage on the first attack roll they make on each of their turn.
Once you use this feature, you cannot do so again until you take a short or long rest.
Additionally, you gain the following list of spells. These spells count as occultist spells for you, and don't count against the amount of occultist spells you can normally prepare.
Starting at 3rd level, you gain access to a set of charms that you can set on other creatures or yourself to cause magical effects. Charms can be used for different purposes, and are all unique. Different charms accomplish different things, as specified in their description.
When you gain this feature, choose one charm of any color, as well as another charm of the same color as the Unearthly Path you chose at level one. When you get to level 5, you gain one more charm of the color associated with your Unearthly Magic. At level 9, you can choose another charm of any color to know. At 13th level, you gain another charm of the color Path you have chosen, and another at level 17 of any color. Black charms are called malisons, grey charms are called wards, and white charms are called favors. The list of charms is in the end of the occultist class section (I need help developing them).
I gotta say that the language on this was confusing to the point where I wrote an entirely different response and then had to delete it once I realized what you were really saying. Instead of the description going chronologically by level, maybe a different organization method might be better. Or maybe if I had been aware of the correlation between Path and color.
Coven Rite
Beginning at level 3, you are a master of sharing spellcasting with others. At the end of a short or long rest, you may perform a ritual with other spellcasters, the ritual taking at least 10 minutes of the rest per spellcaster. You may give another willing caster your spell slots, or they may give you spell slots. They must expend a spell slot that they have to give you the spell slot, and you must do the same to give another caster a spell slot. The spell slot they gain must be of a level they could already cost, and they gain the slot equal to the level expended. The spell slot that they receive lasts until they use it or finish a long rest.
While you are performing this ritual, you gain an amount of Coven Points equal to your Intelligence modifier (minimum of one). When performing a ritual, you may expend Coven Points to give yourself or another spellcaster that is doing the ritual with you extra spell slots equal to the amount of Coven Points you expend, as long as they have spell slots of the level you give them. You regain all Coven Points at the end of a long rest.
At level 14, you may give a spell slot of 5th level or lower to a creature that has the Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature of a level spell slot they have while using this feature, expending no spell slot to do so. You may use this feature an amount of times equal to your Intelligence modifier (minimum of once), regaining all uses at the end of your next long rest.
I am honestly not even sure how this works. The language needs a cleanup, that might help. But I don't understand the whole giving each other Spell Slots, but then points get involved and then they get used for spell slots.... Is it both, or are they supposed to interact with each other somehow? You lost me bud.
I have to admit that I will not have time to look at charms or subclasses for a little while, you're just gonna have to wait for those. Sorry. But I'll check back in. Overall I think it really has a place, but man was it not easy to read some parts. I get that it makes sense in your head, and that you're trying to get it all out, but a little critical editing goes a long way. Try going back and reading some of it out loud to yourself and you'll be more likely to hear the parts that tripped me up reading them. That's a tip I used to give when I tutored paper writing in High School.
Okay, so.... I eventually had to chop off the right 2/3 of the table (one row at a time) to get to read any of the feature names. Since I am not looking at that as I write this, I am assuming that it is the same as the standard full caster progression when it comes to spell slots. That was what it looked like at first anyway.
Yeah, they're full casters, same as a wizard, druid, or other fullcaster would get. Sorry if it took awhile.
Okay, Right off the bat, drop Intelligence for Wisdom. Every single class in 5e has one save the is Dex/Con/Wis and the other is always one of the other three. That is because for so many more things, the save is Dex, or Con, or Wis than the other three combined. Plus, I think Int is all wrong for this Class anyway.
You give a choice of two tool proficiencies, but I would either add the Herbalism Kit to that list, or swap out Alchemy and swap in Herbalism. Every IRL Witch I have ever known (and that's more than one might think, heck I dated two and married a third), they all us herbs and none of them has ever used anything that I would call Alchemy. Also, for Skills you have Deception on there twice and I would drop both of them.
Okay. Thanks. I'm going to switch to Wisdom in the next draft, and then add the Herbalism Kit to the tool proficiency options.
Cantrips
At 1st level, you know four cantrips of your choice from the witch spell list. You learn additional witch cantrips of your choice at higher levels, as shown in the Cantrips Known column of the Occultist table.
The table I'm looking at just says 4 all the way down the whole column.
Sorry, that's a typo. I'll fix those. It's meant to be 4 cantrips up until level 11, then they get 5.
The language here is pretty rough. I've read it four times and still keep tripping over it. I think you need to flavor it to give it some context, and definitely revise the language to have fewer negatives in there, it will make it easier to read. Like, for instance you state that only Rituals can go into the Grimiore, and that you cannot prepare ritual spells. Why do you need the last part about only preparing spells not in the grimoire?
Yeah, sorry about that. I'll fix that up.
Basically, to simplify it, their grimoire is where they store all of their ritual spells, and they are incapable of preparing their ritual spells.
You keep going back and fourth between Occultist and Witch here. Needs an edit. And again, I think Wis is a better fit than Int.
Sorry, those are typos. I'll change it all to occultist, and then change it to Wisdom.
I don't like those Subclass names. (In fact, I'm not really sold on "Magic Line" as a name either.) But honestly, I don't think I like the concepts that these names convey to me. Blood Line is too "Sorcerous" for me. And what the heck is "Bone Magic" supposed to mean? I don't get it. Where do those come from? You started out to do a "Witches but not Witches" class. I think some of these aren't jelling to that idea for me personally. Maybe its because I have no idea what your ideas are?
Yeah, Magic Line is more of a placeholder name right now. I welcome any suggestions for name replacements. Blood Line definitely should be changed to Blood Magic or something like that.
And, Bone Magic comes from multiple types of folklore and mythology of witches or warlocks using magic from human or animal bones.
In general, this class is meant to fill a broad role, of witches, folklore warlocks, and arcane spiritual spellcasters in general. So, "witches" are a part of this class, but this class is not limited to being historical practitioners of witchcraft. Certain subclasses will take themes from different types of folklore witches. Blood magic, bone magic, potion brewing, and other practices would give them different specializations.
"Familiar Magic seems too much like the Pact Boon, and I think they should all be able to have Familiars. The same with "Mixtures," I think that makes sense for all Occultists, I thought that was why Brewers Tools were on their proficiency list. When I think of Witches, I think Familiars, I think Herbs and Candles, and I think of a bubbling cauldron over a fire. Everything else may get interchanged from interpretation to Interpretation, but those are fairly common to all of the archetypes of "Witchiness."
Familiar magic would focus on empowering their magic through their familiar (through giving enemies disadvantage on saving throws against spells, and other effects), while Chain Pacts empower their familiar. I will add Find Familiar to the general occultist spell list, but Familiar Magic Occultists would focus more on their familiars.
Mixture magic would let them focus on potion creating, but a general occultist can use the crafting rules and their tools to create potions, just not mechanically supported by the general class.
If you have any suggestions for subclasses or changes to the base theme of the class, I am open for conceptual changes.
Also, I had absolutely no idea whatsoever that there was any relationship between your Magic Line and any sort of color whatsoever until I got down to Binding Charms. This definitely needs more descriptive narrative.
Yeah, I'll clear that up.
Unearthly Path
At level 2, you choose the type of magic that fuels your spells and other occult abilities, ranging from dark aberrant powers to light blessing magic. Pick one of the following paths: Black Path, Grey Path, or White Path. Those who practice dark magic typically lean towards evil arts and tempted by darker beings, practitioners of grey magic normally are neutral and empower themselves, while studiers white magic support their allies and are most often good.
When you choose your Unearthly Path, you gain an ability listed below, corresponding to the path you choose.
Dark Malediction
You gain resistance to necrotic damage, as well as the ability to put a malignant curse on another creature. As a bonus action, curse one enemy you can see within 60 feet of you. They remain cursed for 1 minute or until they die. While cursed this way, they gain the following detrimental effects:
They gain one exhaustion.
They take extra damage from your spells and attacks equal to your Intelligence modifier (minimum of one damage).
They have disadvantage on the first attack roll they make on each of their turns.
They cannot make reactions.
Once you use this feature, you cannot do so again until you finish a short or long rest.
Additionally, you gain the following list of spells. These spells count as occultist spells for you, and don't count against the amount of occultist spells you can normally prepare.
You gain resistance to force damage, as well as the ability to shield and empower yourself from others' harmful effects. As a bonus action, you can surround yourself in a pale aura of protecting energy. This ward lasts for 1 minute or until you drop to 0 hit points, and grants you the following effects:
You gain an amount of temporary hit points equal to your occultist level + your Intelligence modifier (minimum of 1 hit point).
When you make a saving throw against an effect that would damage you, you may use your reaction to make the saving throw at advantage.
You have advantage on ability checks made on your turn.
Once you use this feature, you cannot do so again until you take a short or long rest.
Additionally, you gain the following list of spells. These spells count as occultist spells for you, and don't count against the amount of occultist spells you can normally prepare.
You gain resistance to radiant damage, as well as the ability to bestow a beneficial charm upon an ally or yourself. As a bonus action, choose one willing creature within 60 feet of you (including yourself) to give this blessing to. This blessing lasts for 1 minute or until the blessed creature drops to 0 hit points, granting them the following benefits:
Attack rolls made to attack that creature are made at disadvantage.
They regain an amount of hit points at the start of each of their turns equal to your proficiency bonus.
They have advantage on the first attack roll they make on each of their turn.
Once you use this feature, you cannot do so again until you take a short or long rest.
Additionally, you gain the following list of spells. These spells count as occultist spells for you, and don't count against the amount of occultist spells you can normally prepare.
Starting at 3rd level, you gain access to a set of charms that you can set on other creatures or yourself to cause magical effects. Charms can be used for different purposes, and are all unique. Different charms accomplish different things, as specified in their description.
When you gain this feature, choose one charm of any color, as well as another charm of the same color as the Unearthly Path you chose at level one. When you get to level 5, you gain one more charm of the color associated with your Unearthly Magic. At level 9, you can choose another charm of any color to know. At 13th level, you gain another charm of the color Path you have chosen, and another at level 17 of any color. Black charms are called malisons, grey charms are called wards, and white charms are called favors. The list of charms is in the end of the occultist class section (I need help developing them).
I gotta say that the language on this was confusing to the point where I wrote an entirely different response and then had to delete it once I realized what you were really saying. Instead of the description going chronologically by level, maybe a different organization method might be better. Or maybe if I had been aware of the correlation between Path and color.
Okay, I'll try to fix that.
Coven Rite
Beginning at level 3, you are a master of sharing spellcasting with others. At the end of a short or long rest, you may perform a ritual with other spellcasters, the ritual taking at least 10 minutes of the rest per spellcaster. You may give another willing caster your spell slots, or they may give you spell slots. They must expend a spell slot that they have to give you the spell slot, and you must do the same to give another caster a spell slot. The spell slot they gain must be of a level they could already cost, and they gain the slot equal to the level expended. The spell slot that they receive lasts until they use it or finish a long rest.
While you are performing this ritual, you gain an amount of Coven Points equal to your Intelligence modifier (minimum of one). When performing a ritual, you may expend Coven Points to give yourself or another spellcaster that is doing the ritual with you extra spell slots equal to the amount of Coven Points you expend, as long as they have spell slots of the level you give them. You regain all Coven Points at the end of a long rest.
At level 14, you may give a spell slot of 5th level or lower to a creature that has the Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature of a level spell slot they have while using this feature, expending no spell slot to do so. You may use this feature an amount of times equal to your Intelligence modifier (minimum of once), regaining all uses at the end of your next long rest.
I am honestly not even sure how this works. The language needs a cleanup, that might help. But I don't understand the whole giving each other Spell Slots, but then points get involved and then they get used for spell slots.... Is it both, or are they supposed to interact with each other somehow? You lost me bud.
I have to admit that I will not have time to look at charms or subclasses for a little while, you're just gonna have to wait for those. Sorry. But I'll check back in. Overall I think it really has a place, but man was it not easy to read some parts. I get that it makes sense in your head, and that you're trying to get it all out, but a little critical editing goes a long way. Try going back and reading some of it out loud to yourself and you'll be more likely to hear the parts that tripped me up reading them. That's a tip I used to give when I tutored paper writing in High School.
I'll clear up the language a bit. I'm sure it was a bit of wording that was going through my head, but didn't make it down on the typed form that well.
Thanks for your response, and I'll try to change things up a bit fairly soon.
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No comments on the Paths at this time. Well, other than the Dark path seems a bit much and the Palid path seems a bit little. But nothing specific, no.
When you gain this feature at 7th level, your power over radiance allows you to better focus your light to harm others. Once on each of your turns, when you deal radiant damage to a creature with a spell of 1st-level or higher, you can force them to take one exhaustion. You may use this feature an amount of times equal to your Intelligence modifier (minimum of once), regaining all uses at the end of a long rest.
“You can force them to take one exhaustion” doesn’t make sense. I believe a more appropriate phrasing would be “You can drain their power to cause them to gain one level of exhaustion”.
Resisting is simply standing in front of the tide and pushing at it. Even if you endure at first, you will eventually break down. Adapting, by contrast, is turning into a fish.
-me
Rangers are not underpowered. They’re just exploration-oriented.
These don't have to practice dark magic, though. That's only 1/3 of the path choices for this class. These are definitely separated from Warlocks and Wizards. In theme, they're kind of like a mix of Warlocks, Wizards, and Clerics, but they're more practitioners of unknown and eldritch lore than forbidden or dark. They don't serve any patrons, don't go to Wizard school, and don't worship any deity or demigod.
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Agreed
yes, just like how an warlock can make an pact with an celestial being from the upper planes or derive some of their eldrich knowledge from any alignment of archfae, from a lore perspective these fellows should have a lot in common with their patron-serving cousins, to quote xanatar's guide here "warlocks are the finders and keepers of secrets. They push at the edge of our understanding of the world, always seeking to expand their expertise. Where sages and wizards heed a clear sign of danger and end their research, a warlock plunges ahead, heedless of the cost". Their eldrich invocations are nether good nor evil, just eldrich and arcane. Like i see the aestetic you are going for and clearly it is something that cannot really be delivered as effectively with an wizard or an warlock character, but the way you have explained their powers makes it seem like warlocks and occultists should have more in common, as if the warlock is just an more narrow offshoot of the occultist class. Like you can at least have some token mention of them in the fluff like "occultists despise warlocks becuase of their pacts", "warlocks who loose their patron often become occultists since it feels so familiar to them" or "warlocks and occultists sometimes meet by accident while looking for obscure arcane lore and researching ancient curses, when they do they often act competitively, even more so than when in the presence of another member of their class"
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Maybe 5e just did a bad job at defining Warlocks. Warlocks are pact-makers. Sure, they might learn secret magic and "taboo/forbidden" spells and research stuff about the cosmos and extraplanar entities, but that's not the purpose of a Warlock. A warlock uses their fairly limited arcane knowledge to make a pact with an otherworldly power, normally only using their knowledge to summon or contact this creature. They may have come across certain interesting parts of lore during their studies and searchings, but they are not occultists. They're as much cousins to each other as wizards are to warlocks.
5e warlocks are poorly defined. IMO, they should be people who "cheat" to get arcane magic and power, instead of followers of the occult and knowledge-keeping eldritch mages.
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Can you not argue about this and make the class instead? I love this, thank you, Third_Sundering!
An Assassin of Random
Will try to post, but I have a busy schedule and have to attend to the real world.(Currently un-unavailable, whatever that means...)
"Whatever it was, it was my sister, not me!"
I play Avalon Farwood, Esthvele, and Anacra in the Tales of the Adventurers Tavern.
*Sheeeeez this is from a long time ago... a lot has changed...*
yes please. i would say that flavor wise they are somewhat similar to warlock, but not similar enough for it to be a copy. an arguing is bad.
I am an average mathematics enjoyer.
>Extended Signature<
I agree. This thread isn't for me to justify the class, it's for me to make it. I'll wait for a bit more feedback and then make a new draft.
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Alrighty Third. I’m planning on finally getting to this today when I get home. I keep trying when I’m on my phone, but the formatting sucks because of the display size even in landscape. That table is unreadable to me when it’s all scrunched up. And I have three pages of notes to sort through too. Do you want me to be some of that “more feedback” or do you want me to wait for the latest draft that you’re planning?
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For your health and safety, do not type out anything that long on your phone. Please.
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I hate to tell you, but about 90% of everything I do on DDB is on my phone. Including my homebrews.
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I was already waiting for Goodbovine to give their feedback, and at this point I will probably not be able to complete a new draft before you get home. I would love to hear your thoughts first, and then create a new draft with the feedback.
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How do you still have hands? I can't type anything longer than a paragraph on a phone.
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My Improved Lineage System
I hope you did your first post introducing the occultist class in your computer. Because if you didn't.......
I finally got around to looking at the whole class.
Just to clarify - the grimoire is for ritual spells that you copy using the wizard rules, and then you prepare spells from the list, right? I had to read that a couple times.
I didn't look at the entire spell list, but what I saw looks good.
I love the path idea, and all of the features for that look good.
Can't wait to see the subclasses and charms.
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Okay, so.... I eventually had to chop off the right 2/3 of the table (one row at a time) to get to read any of the feature names. Since I am not looking at that as I write this, I am assuming that it is the same as the standard full caster progression when it comes to spell slots. That was what it looked like at first anyway.
Occultist
Armor: None
Weapons: Simple weapons
Tools: Brewers' Tools or Alchemists' Supplies
Saving Throws: Intelligence, Charisma
Skills: Choose two from Arcana, Deception, Insight, Intimidation, Investigation, Persuasion, Deception, Sleight of Hand
Okay, Right off the bat, drop Intelligence for Wisdom. Every single class in 5e has one save the is Dex/Con/Wis and the other is always one of the other three. That is because for so many more things, the save is Dex, or Con, or Wis than the other three combined. Plus, I think Int is all wrong for this Class anyway.
You give a choice of two tool proficiencies, but I would either add the Herbalism Kit to that list, or swap out Alchemy and swap in Herbalism. Every IRL Witch I have ever known (and that's more than one might think, heck I dated two and married a third), they all us herbs and none of them has ever used anything that I would call Alchemy. Also, for Skills you have Deception on there twice and I would drop both of them.
Equipment
You start with the following equipment, in addition to the equipment granted by your background:
Spellcasting
As a practitioner of arcane magic, you have a grimoire containing spells that allow you to channel your dark spells.
Cantrips
At 1st level, you know four cantrips of your choice from the witch spell list. You learn additional witch cantrips of your choice at higher levels, as shown in the Cantrips Known column of the Occultist table.
The table I'm looking at just says 4 all the way down the whole column.
Grimoire
At 1st level, you have 2 occultist spells that have the ritual tag written in your grimoire. Your grimoire is where you write your ritual spells, and can cast those spells only while holding your grimoire. If you cast a ritual spell from your grimoire as its original casting time, you don't need to prepare that spell, and must be holding your grimoire at the time of the casting. You cannot prepare spells that have the ritual tag, and can only prepare spells that are not in your grimoire.
(Copying ritual spells into the book functions as copying a spell into a spellbook from the wizard sidebar.)
The language here is pretty rough. I've read it four times and still keep tripping over it. I think you need to flavor it to give it some context, and definitely revise the language to have fewer negatives in there, it will make it easier to read. Like, for instance you state that only Rituals can go into the Grimiore, and that you cannot prepare ritual spells. Why do you need the last part about only preparing spells not in the grimoire?
Preparing and Casting Spells
The Occultist table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your witch spells. To cast one of your witch spells of 1st level or higher, you must expend a spell slot of the spell's level or higher. You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a long rest.
You prepare the list of occultist spells that are available for you to cast, choosing from the occultist spell list. When you do so, choose an amount of occultist spells equal to your
Intelligencemodifier + your witch level. These spells must be of a level that you have spell slots.For example, if you’re a 3rd-level witch, you have four 1st-level and two 2nd-level spell slots. With a
Intelligenceof 16, your list of prepared spells can include six spells of 1st or 2nd level, in any combination, chosen from your spell list. If you prepare the 1st-level spell hex, you can cast it using a 1st-level or a 2nd-level slot. Casting the spell doesn’t remove it from your list of prepared spells.You can change your list of prepared spells when you finish a long rest. Preparing a new list of occultist spells requires time spent doing dark rites using your spellcasting focus and grimoire: at least 1 minute per spell level for each spell on your list.
You keep going back and fourth between Occultist and Witch here. Needs an edit. And again, I think Wis is a better fit than Int.
Spellcasting Ability
Intelligenceis your spellcasting ability for your occultist spells: your understanding of the dark threads of magic allow you to wield these spells with superior skill. You use yourIntelligencewhenever a occultist spell refers to your spellcasting ability. In addition, you use yourIntelligencemodifier when setting the saving throw DC for an occultist spell you cast and when making an attack roll with one.Spell save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your
IntelligencemodifierSpell attack modifier = your proficiency bonus + your
IntelligencemodifierRitual Casting
You can cast a occultist spell as a ritual if that spell has the ritual tag and is written in your grimoire.
Spellcasting Focus
You can use an arcane focus or any of the following items as a spellcasting focus for your witch spells; lantern, crystal ball, candle, needle, a jar, a bottle, fragment of obsidian, or a skull.
Magic Line
At 1st level, you choose your favored source of magic. You can focus on one specific archetype of magic, allowing you to gain more power in that specific field of magic. Choose from one of the ways to focus your magic: Blood Line, Bone Magic, Familiar Magic, Morph Magic, Earth Magic, Light Magic, Dark Magic, and Mixture Magic, all detailed at the end of the class description.
Your choice grants you features at 1st level, and again at 7th, 11th, and 15th level.
I don't like those Subclass names. (In fact, I'm not really sold on "Magic Line" as a name either.) But honestly, I don't think I like the concepts that these names convey to me. Blood Line is too "Sorcerous" for me. And what the heck is "Bone Magic" supposed to mean? I don't get it. Where do those come from? You started out to do a "Witches but not Witches" class. I think some of these aren't jelling to that idea for me personally. Maybe its because I have no idea what your ideas are?
"Familiar Magic seems too much like the Pact Boon, and I think they should all be able to have Familiars. The same with "Mixtures," I think that makes sense for all Occultists, I thought that was why Brewers Tools were on their proficiency list. When I think of Witches, I think Familiars, I think Herbs and Candles, and I think of a bubbling cauldron over a fire. Everything else may get interchanged from interpretation to Interpretation, but those are fairly common to all of the archetypes of "Witchiness."
Also, I had absolutely no idea whatsoever that there was any relationship between your Magic Line and any sort of color whatsoever until I got down to Binding Charms. This definitely needs more descriptive narrative.
Unearthly Path
At level 2, you choose the type of magic that fuels your spells and other occult abilities, ranging from dark aberrant powers to light blessing magic. Pick one of the following paths: Black Path, Grey Path, or White Path. Those who practice dark magic typically lean towards evil arts and tempted by darker beings, practitioners of grey magic normally are neutral and empower themselves, while studiers white magic support their allies and are most often good.
When you choose your Unearthly Path, you gain an ability listed below, corresponding to the path you choose.
Dark Malediction
You gain resistance to necrotic damage, as well as the ability to put a malignant curse on another creature. As a bonus action, curse one enemy you can see within 60 feet of you. They remain cursed for 1 minute or until they die. While cursed this way, they gain the following detrimental effects:
Once you use this feature, you cannot do so again until you finish a short or long rest.
Additionally, you gain the following list of spells. These spells count as occultist spells for you, and don't count against the amount of occultist spells you can normally prepare.
Path Spells
Black Path Spells
1st
hex
3rd
blindness/deafness
5th
bestow curse
7th
compulsion
9th
dream
Pallid Aura
You gain resistance to force damage, as well as the ability to shield and empower yourself from others' harmful effects. As a bonus action, you can surround yourself in a pale aura of protecting energy. This ward lasts for 1 minute or until you drop to 0 hit points, and grants you the following effects:
Once you use this feature, you cannot do so again until you take a short or long rest.
Additionally, you gain the following list of spells. These spells count as occultist spells for you, and don't count against the amount of occultist spells you can normally prepare.
Path Spells
Grey Path Spells
1st
shield
3rd
barkskin
5th
protection from energy
7th
stoneskin
9th
wall of force
Ivory Benison
You gain resistance to radiant damage, as well as the ability to bestow a beneficial charm upon an ally or yourself. As a bonus action, choose one willing creature within 60 feet of you (including yourself) to give this blessing to. This blessing lasts for 1 minute or until the blessed creature drops to 0 hit points, granting them the following benefits:
Once you use this feature, you cannot do so again until you take a short or long rest.
Additionally, you gain the following list of spells. These spells count as occultist spells for you, and don't count against the amount of occultist spells you can normally prepare.
Path Spells
White Path Spells
1st
bless
3rd
aid
5th
beacon of hope
7th
death ward
9th
circle of power
Binding Charms
Starting at 3rd level, you gain access to a set of charms that you can set on other creatures or yourself to cause magical effects. Charms can be used for different purposes, and are all unique. Different charms accomplish different things, as specified in their description.
When you gain this feature, choose one charm of any color, as well as another charm of the same color as the Unearthly Path you chose at level one. When you get to level 5, you gain one more charm of the color associated with your Unearthly Magic. At level 9, you can choose another charm of any color to know. At 13th level, you gain another charm of the color Path you have chosen, and another at level 17 of any color. Black charms are called malisons, grey charms are called wards, and white charms are called favors. The list of charms is in the end of the occultist class section (I need help developing them).
I gotta say that the language on this was confusing to the point where I wrote an entirely different response and then had to delete it once I realized what you were really saying. Instead of the description going chronologically by level, maybe a different organization method might be better. Or maybe if I had been aware of the correlation between Path and color.
Coven Rite
Beginning at level 3, you are a master of sharing spellcasting with others. At the end of a short or long rest, you may perform a ritual with other spellcasters, the ritual taking at least 10 minutes of the rest per spellcaster. You may give another willing caster your spell slots, or they may give you spell slots. They must expend a spell slot that they have to give you the spell slot, and you must do the same to give another caster a spell slot. The spell slot they gain must be of a level they could already cost, and they gain the slot equal to the level expended. The spell slot that they receive lasts until they use it or finish a long rest.
While you are performing this ritual, you gain an amount of Coven Points equal to your Intelligence modifier (minimum of one). When performing a ritual, you may expend Coven Points to give yourself or another spellcaster that is doing the ritual with you extra spell slots equal to the amount of Coven Points you expend, as long as they have spell slots of the level you give them. You regain all Coven Points at the end of a long rest.
At level 14, you may give a spell slot of 5th level or lower to a creature that has the Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature of a level spell slot they have while using this feature, expending no spell slot to do so. You may use this feature an amount of times equal to your Intelligence modifier (minimum of once), regaining all uses at the end of your next long rest.
I am honestly not even sure how this works. The language needs a cleanup, that might help. But I don't understand the whole giving each other Spell Slots, but then points get involved and then they get used for spell slots.... Is it both, or are they supposed to interact with each other somehow? You lost me bud.
I have to admit that I will not have time to look at charms or subclasses for a little while, you're just gonna have to wait for those. Sorry. But I'll check back in. Overall I think it really has a place, but man was it not easy to read some parts. I get that it makes sense in your head, and that you're trying to get it all out, but a little critical editing goes a long way. Try going back and reading some of it out loud to yourself and you'll be more likely to hear the parts that tripped me up reading them. That's a tip I used to give when I tutored paper writing in High School.
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Okay, thanks. I'll get a response up soon. It's all meant to be occultist, I must've missed some of the "witch"'s. I'll fix those in the next draft.
P.S. I think I'm switching to Intelligence instead of Wisdom. It took me awhile to accept the idea of a Wisdom arcane caster, but I think it fits.
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Yeah, they're full casters, same as a wizard, druid, or other fullcaster would get. Sorry if it took awhile.
Okay. Thanks. I'm going to switch to Wisdom in the next draft, and then add the Herbalism Kit to the tool proficiency options.
Sorry, that's a typo. I'll fix those. It's meant to be 4 cantrips up until level 11, then they get 5.
Yeah, sorry about that. I'll fix that up.
Basically, to simplify it, their grimoire is where they store all of their ritual spells, and they are incapable of preparing their ritual spells.
Sorry, those are typos. I'll change it all to occultist, and then change it to Wisdom.
Yeah, Magic Line is more of a placeholder name right now. I welcome any suggestions for name replacements. Blood Line definitely should be changed to Blood Magic or something like that.
And, Bone Magic comes from multiple types of folklore and mythology of witches or warlocks using magic from human or animal bones.
In general, this class is meant to fill a broad role, of witches, folklore warlocks, and arcane spiritual spellcasters in general. So, "witches" are a part of this class, but this class is not limited to being historical practitioners of witchcraft. Certain subclasses will take themes from different types of folklore witches. Blood magic, bone magic, potion brewing, and other practices would give them different specializations.
Familiar magic would focus on empowering their magic through their familiar (through giving enemies disadvantage on saving throws against spells, and other effects), while Chain Pacts empower their familiar. I will add Find Familiar to the general occultist spell list, but Familiar Magic Occultists would focus more on their familiars.
Mixture magic would let them focus on potion creating, but a general occultist can use the crafting rules and their tools to create potions, just not mechanically supported by the general class.
If you have any suggestions for subclasses or changes to the base theme of the class, I am open for conceptual changes.
Yeah, I'll clear that up.
So, no comments on the paths?
Okay, I'll try to fix that.
I'll clear up the language a bit. I'm sure it was a bit of wording that was going through my head, but didn't make it down on the typed form that well.
Thanks for your response, and I'll try to change things up a bit fairly soon.
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No comments on the Paths at this time. Well, other than the Dark path seems a bit much and the Palid path seems a bit little. But nothing specific, no.
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Draining Radiance
When you gain this feature at 7th level, your power over radiance allows you to better focus your light to harm others. Once on each of your turns, when you deal radiant damage to a creature with a spell of 1st-level or higher, you can force them to take one exhaustion. You may use this feature an amount of times equal to your Intelligence modifier (minimum of once), regaining all uses at the end of a long rest.
“You can force them to take one exhaustion” doesn’t make sense. I believe a more appropriate phrasing would be “You can drain their power to cause them to gain one level of exhaustion”.
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Resisting is simply standing in front of the tide and pushing at it. Even if you endure at first, you will eventually break down. Adapting, by contrast, is turning into a fish.
-me
Rangers are not underpowered. They’re just exploration-oriented.
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Okay, thanks. I will change that in the next version (which will come soon, hopefully).
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