What happens if 2 sides surprise each other? Can that even happen?
Just roll initiative normally. I mean, you can have a surprise round where no-one is able to take any actions, but it won't serve much purpose. The normal way this happens is a meeting engagement where neither side was aware of the other before something triggered contact, such as a door being opened.
Does the PC who cast get an action the round that starts with 'roll initiative?' If not, why not? According to you, no one else was ready to react that round to someone starting to cast a spell. If instead, someone drew and struck with a weapon, or grappled, or did anything at all, you are saying that, simply by being the first to say they do something, they automatically go first. Even when completely visible in line of sight of all other parties present.
That is a really major benefit to give to PC's....
Not really. If this was a social engagement and the PC tried to cast Faerie Fire and this happened on some table where initiative was then rolled and everyone had to act in initiative order without the spell being cast yet, and someone beat the PC, on their turn they wouldn't do anything combat-relevant, since they would have no idea anything untoward was happening yet. That's, to be clear, how all of my tables work, to ensure combat timing goes as expected, but the combat functionally starts with the instigator's turn in a context like that.
What happens if 2 sides surprise each other? Can that even happen?
Just roll initiative normally. I mean, you can have a surprise round where no-one is able to take any actions, but it won't serve much purpose. The normal way this happens is a meeting engagement where neither side was aware of the other before something triggered contact, such as a door being opened.
Yeah the only time this will really matter is if one of the PCs has the Alert feat which allow it to get that first turn.
Surprise only happens if 1 side is unnoticed by the other and actively sneaking.
Surprise happens if the DM says it happens. You could create a different mechanic for the situation where it's unknown that people are hostile, rather than unknown that enemies are present, but that seems like unnecessary duplication.
Surprise only happens if 1 side is unnoticed by the other and actively sneaking.
Surprise happens if the DM says it happens. You could create a different mechanic for the situation where it's unknown that people are hostile, rather than unknown that enemies are present, but that seems like unnecessary duplication.
This...the DM is basically given full authority to determine:
"The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter."
The key word here is tries. If two groups are both actively trying to be stealthy and run into each other you would need to look at the situation and determine who is surprised. It could be everyone if the conditions are right (albeit I will bet its incredibly rare).
Surprise only happens if 1 side is unnoticed by the other and actively sneaking.
Surprise happens if the DM says it happens. You could create a different mechanic for the situation where it's unknown that people are hostile, rather than unknown that enemies are present, but that seems like unnecessary duplication.
That’s only true in the sense that the DM can at any time arbitrarily ignore rules or houserule anything and everything. There are standardized rules for establishing surprise, and they require that someone try to be stealthy and roll Dex (stealth) against passive perception.
I think as long as you're chucking out the triggers for surprise you might as well chuck out the whole thing because those rules are messy and wobbly anyway. I still think just rolling initiative with the instigator automatically going first is the most equitable and realistic solution. They still get first action but don't get surprise bonuses they didn't really "earn" or a whole extra turn to do stuff.
This...the DM is basically given full authority to determine:
"The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter."
The key word here is tries. If two groups are both actively trying to be stealthy and run into each other you would need to look at the situation and determine who is surprised. It could be everyone if the conditions are right (albeit I will bet its incredibly rare).
If neither side notices the other there is no combat, they might go through the woods in opposite directions 30 ft apart and not be aware of the other group. You can not be hidden from a creature that can clearly see you so when there is a clear line of site between at least one member of each party then those people are aware of a threat and are not surprised. It would be quyite valid for the DM to decide some people are surprised however. For example if one goup are walking in single file and go round a corner in a corridor which leads into a room where the other party are ot would be quite acceptable to determine that as lead member of the party enters the room he sees the other group and the other group sees him but the rest of the party in the corrodor are surprised.
The other key phase is "notice a threat", the party have disguised themselves as cultists and approach the cultist camp, they have agreed that as soon as they are 50 ft from the cultists they will attack. In that case I would rule that the cultists do not notice the threat and are hence surprised.
So if you can't see me clearly... which means you can see me, just not as clearly as usual, then I can still hide.
Yup, apparently that's how it works mechanically.
There's even a feat called Skulker that let's you attempt to hide if you are lightly obscured (like in dim light).
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"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
I think people are failing to take into account that all the action during a turn takes place more or less all at the same time, and many of the things that go on are not fully described. People don't just stand around from the start of the round until their turn comes up. There is a certain amount of wiggle room. Initiative is a rather artificial way of reducing a very complex situation in a few simple rolls.
Someone starts casing a Faerie Fire. They begin their casting at the start of the round, it goes off when they take their Action on their turn. How many seconds that takes can vary. During that time some people may react faster than others, and that is why Initiative is rolled. That's why it is possible to counter a spell before your turn comes up.
The Attack action isn't just one single attempt to cause harm. It's actually meant to represent multiple tries, one (or more) of which has a chance of actually getting through the opponent's defenses. Even if the opponent's turn has not come up, they are still doing things to defend themselves. They get to use their shield, or take advantage of their dexterity to slip away from whatever get near them. It is similar in how movement works. You may resolve it on the turn, but it takes place over the course of the entire round.
Someone pointed out earlier that the DM should always require Initiative to be rolled if there is any chance it will be needed. That saves time and avoids arguments. It doesn't matter if all one side does is use Harsh Language or a Pointed Stare, if the other side might decide to do something about it, Initiative should be rolled. The worst that can happen is some dice get rolled and are not needed. NPCs may have hair triggers even if they appear to be friendly.
Now then. Subtle Spell:
Subtle Spell
When you cast a spell, you can spend 1 sorcery point to cast it without any somatic or verbal components.
If the spell has a material component, the casting will be noticed. If not? It is possible the spell could be a surprise. Initiative still gets rolled as normal, but those surprised don't get to take their Actions on their turn. They still get Reactions. A Subtle spell could still be countered. A Subtle spell might be handy if the opponent does not have line of sight. You cast and they don't even get their Passive Perception to get a chance to hear you casting.
When you cast a spell, you can spend 1 sorcery point to cast it without any somatic or verbal components.
If the spell has a material component, the casting will be noticed. If not? It is possible the spell could be a surprise. Initiative still gets rolled as normal, but those surprised don't get to take their Actions on their turn. They still get Reactions. A Subtle spell could still be countered. A Subtle spell might be handy if the opponent does not have line of sight. You cast and they don't even get their Passive Perception to get a chance to hear you casting.
Couple of corrections here.
A surprised creature can not take reactions until their first turn has ended. Therefore even without subtle spell they would be unable to counterspell the initial attack if their initiative roll was lower.
The SAC clarifies that subtle spell makes it impossible to perceive a spell is being cast and therefore impossible to react to it. The rules regarding material components are somewhat vague, do you have to get the component out of you pouch? If you use a focus do you Need to touch it? Would putting your hand into your pocket to touch a focus be recognised as such? If subtle is not subtle for spells with M it is pretty much useless.
If subtle is not subtle for spells with M it is pretty much useless.
Why? There are plenty of spells which don't have M.
This is one of the reasons why my focus of choice is a staff. I can just always carry it and walk with it etc.
I also like crystal necklace as a focus. I can just grab or fiddle with the necklace like a nervous habit to keep hands busy, and few people will connect that to spellcasting.
If subtle is not subtle for spells with M it is pretty much useless.
Why? There are plenty of spells which don't have M.
This is one of the reasons why my focus of choice is a staff. I can just always carry it and walk with it etc.
I also like crystal necklace as a focus. I can just grab or fiddle with the necklace like a nervous habit to keep hands busy, and few people will connect that to spellcasting.
Xanathar's does say it doesn't matter what the component is or how you hold it....its perceptible that you are casting a spell. A DM can decide to forgo that but the intent is that ANY component makes the act of spellcasting noticeable.
While I actually do not like this myself it is how the rules state it goes. In my games I just let ANY caster that wants to try to hide spellcasting with a M only do a sleight of hand check to hide it I realize that is is not the RAW and is instead my own attempt at making the game more fun.
Then again I also just highly suggest against sorcerers taking subtle spell at a low level as I find it pretty underwhelming for them most of the time.
It would depend on the DM and how the player is using it.
If I was playing a Sorcerer with Subtle Spell I would talk to the DM before the game to make sure he is ok with how it works. And then I would abuse the living hell out of it.
I mean, basically, no one ever knows you're casting a spell with it and it can never be countered. (Within it's own limits of course, needing sorcery points, spell slots etc.)
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"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
It would depend on the DM and how the player is using it.
If I was playing a Sorcerer with Subtle Spell I would talk to the DM before the game to make sure he is ok with how it works. And then I would abuse the living hell out of it.
I mean, basically, no one ever knows you're casting a spell with it and it can never be countered. (Within it's own limits of course, needing sorcery points, spell slots etc.)
Thats the rub though as the M component makes it noticeable so you have a low list of spells that are truly unnoticeable and 95% of them are not work the bother casting with Subtle Spell.
I think you are right though that you should talk with the DM about it....I actively make a point to discuss it if the player picks a sorcerer.
It would depend on the DM and how the player is using it.
If I was playing a Sorcerer with Subtle Spell I would talk to the DM before the game to make sure he is ok with how it works. And then I would abuse the living hell out of it.
I mean, basically, no one ever knows you're casting a spell with it and it can never be countered. (Within it's own limits of course, needing sorcery points, spell slots etc.)
Thats the rub though as the M component makes it noticeable so you have a low list of spells that are truly unnoticeable and 95% of them are not work the bother casting with Subtle Spell.
I think you are right though that you should talk with the DM about it....I actively make a point to discuss it if the player picks a sorcerer.
You keep saying that though as if 'noticeable' equals 'noticed' or 'obvious.' It does not actually say that.
It says:
"But what about the act of casting a spell? Is it possible for someone to perceive that a spell is being cast in their presence? To be perceptible, the casting of a spell must involve a verbal, somatic, or material component. The form of a material component doesn’t matter for the purposes of perception, whether it’s an object specified in the spell’s description, a component pouch, or a spellcasting focus.
If the need for a spell’s components has been removed by a special ability, such as the sorcerer’s Subtle Spell feature or the Innate Spellcasting trait possessed by many creatures, the casting of the spell is imperceptible. If an imperceptible casting produces a perceptible effect, it’s normally impossible to determine who cast the spell in the absence of other evidence."
"Perceptible" here is being used as the opposite of "Imperceptible," in other words, possibly noticed rather than guaranteed noticed. It actually gives NO advice how perceptible it is under those circumstances.
That’s not really an accurate take on how “perceptible” is used. If something is perceptible, it’s perceptible. If it’s only perceptible on a DC 15 Perception check, then it’s not simply “perceptible.” It’s “perceptible under certain conditions.” If the text doesn’t limit the perceptibility based on anything other than the presence of components, then that’s all the matters; it really is “guaranteed noticed.”
As another example, there may be some phenomenon or other and I ask the GM whether or not it’s perceptible. The GM may very well call for a roll, and if I succeed, the answer is yes. If I fail, the answer is no. What’s not going to happen is that I fail but the answer is yes anyway, because that failure meant I couldn’t perceive it; i.e. it was not perceptible.
Since the rules just say components are perceptible, without any further qualification, yeah, if it happens within your line of sight, or within earshot, there’s no barrier to your ability to perceive it.
You can't perceive a spell being cast with Subtle Spell. (that's the whole point of the game mechanic)
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"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
— A basic prayer.
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Just roll initiative normally. I mean, you can have a surprise round where no-one is able to take any actions, but it won't serve much purpose. The normal way this happens is a meeting engagement where neither side was aware of the other before something triggered contact, such as a door being opened.
Not really. If this was a social engagement and the PC tried to cast Faerie Fire and this happened on some table where initiative was then rolled and everyone had to act in initiative order without the spell being cast yet, and someone beat the PC, on their turn they wouldn't do anything combat-relevant, since they would have no idea anything untoward was happening yet. That's, to be clear, how all of my tables work, to ensure combat timing goes as expected, but the combat functionally starts with the instigator's turn in a context like that.
Yeah the only time this will really matter is if one of the PCs has the Alert feat which allow it to get that first turn.
Surprise only happens if 1 side is unnoticed by the other and actively sneaking.
You can't surprise someone who can see you. You can't surprise your allies. 2 sides can't surprise eachother.
Nothing that has been discussed on this thread is surprise.
Surprise happens if the DM says it happens. You could create a different mechanic for the situation where it's unknown that people are hostile, rather than unknown that enemies are present, but that seems like unnecessary duplication.
This...the DM is basically given full authority to determine:
"The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter."
The key word here is tries. If two groups are both actively trying to be stealthy and run into each other you would need to look at the situation and determine who is surprised. It could be everyone if the conditions are right (albeit I will bet its incredibly rare).
That’s only true in the sense that the DM can at any time arbitrarily ignore rules or houserule anything and everything. There are standardized rules for establishing surprise, and they require that someone try to be stealthy and roll Dex (stealth) against passive perception.
I think as long as you're chucking out the triggers for surprise you might as well chuck out the whole thing because those rules are messy and wobbly anyway. I still think just rolling initiative with the instigator automatically going first is the most equitable and realistic solution. They still get first action but don't get surprise bonuses they didn't really "earn" or a whole extra turn to do stuff.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
If neither side notices the other there is no combat, they might go through the woods in opposite directions 30 ft apart and not be aware of the other group. You can not be hidden from a creature that can clearly see you so when there is a clear line of site between at least one member of each party then those people are aware of a threat and are not surprised. It would be quyite valid for the DM to decide some people are surprised however. For example if one goup are walking in single file and go round a corner in a corridor which leads into a room where the other party are ot would be quite acceptable to determine that as lead member of the party enters the room he sees the other group and the other group sees him but the rest of the party in the corrodor are surprised.
The other key phase is "notice a threat", the party have disguised themselves as cultists and approach the cultist camp, they have agreed that as soon as they are 50 ft from the cultists they will attack. In that case I would rule that the cultists do not notice the threat and are hence surprised.
So if you can't see me clearly... which means you can see me, just not as clearly as usual, then I can still hide.
Yup, apparently that's how it works mechanically.
There's even a feat called Skulker that let's you attempt to hide if you are lightly obscured (like in dim light).
I think people are failing to take into account that all the action during a turn takes place more or less all at the same time, and many of the things that go on are not fully described. People don't just stand around from the start of the round until their turn comes up. There is a certain amount of wiggle room. Initiative is a rather artificial way of reducing a very complex situation in a few simple rolls.
Someone starts casing a Faerie Fire. They begin their casting at the start of the round, it goes off when they take their Action on their turn. How many seconds that takes can vary. During that time some people may react faster than others, and that is why Initiative is rolled. That's why it is possible to counter a spell before your turn comes up.
The Attack action isn't just one single attempt to cause harm. It's actually meant to represent multiple tries, one (or more) of which has a chance of actually getting through the opponent's defenses. Even if the opponent's turn has not come up, they are still doing things to defend themselves. They get to use their shield, or take advantage of their dexterity to slip away from whatever get near them. It is similar in how movement works. You may resolve it on the turn, but it takes place over the course of the entire round.
Someone pointed out earlier that the DM should always require Initiative to be rolled if there is any chance it will be needed. That saves time and avoids arguments. It doesn't matter if all one side does is use Harsh Language or a Pointed Stare, if the other side might decide to do something about it, Initiative should be rolled. The worst that can happen is some dice get rolled and are not needed. NPCs may have hair triggers even if they appear to be friendly.
Now then. Subtle Spell:
Subtle Spell
When you cast a spell, you can spend 1 sorcery point to cast it without any somatic or verbal components.
If the spell has a material component, the casting will be noticed. If not? It is possible the spell could be a surprise. Initiative still gets rolled as normal, but those surprised don't get to take their Actions on their turn. They still get Reactions. A Subtle spell could still be countered. A Subtle spell might be handy if the opponent does not have line of sight. You cast and they don't even get their Passive Perception to get a chance to hear you casting.
<Insert clever signature here>
Couple of corrections here.
A surprised creature can not take reactions until their first turn has ended. Therefore even without subtle spell they would be unable to counterspell the initial attack if their initiative roll was lower.
The SAC clarifies that subtle spell makes it impossible to perceive a spell is being cast and therefore impossible to react to it. The rules regarding material components are somewhat vague, do you have to get the component out of you pouch? If you use a focus do you Need to touch it? Would putting your hand into your pocket to touch a focus be recognised as such? If subtle is not subtle for spells with M it is pretty much useless.
Why? There are plenty of spells which don't have M.
For me its less about the fact there are spells that don't have M....but which ones are actually worth casting with Subtle that don't have M.
Honestly I can't think of many before level 5 in which case you can likely wait until level 10 to pick up subtle spell.
Its not a bad late game metamagic but its utility is much much lower than Quicken and Twin in the early game.
This is one of the reasons why my focus of choice is a staff. I can just always carry it and walk with it etc.
I also like crystal necklace as a focus. I can just grab or fiddle with the necklace like a nervous habit to keep hands busy, and few people will connect that to spellcasting.
Xanathar's does say it doesn't matter what the component is or how you hold it....its perceptible that you are casting a spell. A DM can decide to forgo that but the intent is that ANY component makes the act of spellcasting noticeable.
While I actually do not like this myself it is how the rules state it goes. In my games I just let ANY caster that wants to try to hide spellcasting with a M only do a sleight of hand check to hide it I realize that is is not the RAW and is instead my own attempt at making the game more fun.
Then again I also just highly suggest against sorcerers taking subtle spell at a low level as I find it pretty underwhelming for them most of the time.
It would depend on the DM and how the player is using it.
If I was playing a Sorcerer with Subtle Spell I would talk to the DM before the game to make sure he is ok with how it works. And then I would abuse the living hell out of it.
I mean, basically, no one ever knows you're casting a spell with it and it can never be countered. (Within it's own limits of course, needing sorcery points, spell slots etc.)
Thats the rub though as the M component makes it noticeable so you have a low list of spells that are truly unnoticeable and 95% of them are not work the bother casting with Subtle Spell.
I think you are right though that you should talk with the DM about it....I actively make a point to discuss it if the player picks a sorcerer.
That’s not really an accurate take on how “perceptible” is used. If something is perceptible, it’s perceptible. If it’s only perceptible on a DC 15 Perception check, then it’s not simply “perceptible.” It’s “perceptible under certain conditions.” If the text doesn’t limit the perceptibility based on anything other than the presence of components, then that’s all the matters; it really is “guaranteed noticed.”
As another example, there may be some phenomenon or other and I ask the GM whether or not it’s perceptible. The GM may very well call for a roll, and if I succeed, the answer is yes. If I fail, the answer is no. What’s not going to happen is that I fail but the answer is yes anyway, because that failure meant I couldn’t perceive it; i.e. it was not perceptible.
Since the rules just say components are perceptible, without any further qualification, yeah, if it happens within your line of sight, or within earshot, there’s no barrier to your ability to perceive it.
Exscept Subtle Spell of course.
You can't perceive a spell being cast with Subtle Spell. (that's the whole point of the game mechanic)