Oh look, a player trying to use "rule of cool" to circumvent rules that are hard and fast. Tell the player "no".
As Quin pointed out, the issue here is the entry under the Athletics score that specifically says you can use it to "jump an unusually long distance or pull off a stunt midjump."
The player is attempting to do something the rules tell them they can do.
What is the context of this chasm? It sounds like you really didn't want the character to get across. Was it meant to be uncrossable? What were the consequences of letting them succeed and what would have been the consequences of failure?
I would generally allow this if it came up at my table, but I would want to factor in encumbrance and say that if they want to exceed their normal long jump they need to leave any really heavy stuff behind. A fighter in full plate is probably going to have to take it off. A naked barbarian with just an axe could just go ahead and jump. As a skinny awkward teenager in high school I could easily clear 15ft with a running start. An athletic adventurer should be able to clear 20 feet with no issue as long as they weren't carrying 200 pounds of gear.
DC 25 Athletics check to jump between two walls separated by like 4-5 feet. If passed I would allow you to "climb" the walls despite there not being a solid surface to hold on to.
Failure means you fall about half way up and take the relevant fall damage.
Just want to point out that there is precedence for what the player is asking for.
Your Strength (Athletics) check covers difficult situations you encounter while climbing, jumping, or swimming. Examples include the following activities:
You attempt to climb a sheer or slippery cliff, avoid hazards while scaling a wall, or cling to a surface while something is trying to knock you off.
You try to jump an unusually long distance or pull off a stunt midjump.
You struggle to swim or stay afloat in treacherous currents, storm-tossed waves, or areas of thick seaweed. Or another creature tries to push or pull you underwater or otherwise interfere with your swimming.
In some circumstances, your GM might allow you to make a Strength (Athletics) check to jump higher than you normally can.
You are by no means obligated to allow it, but I don't think its unreasonable for a player to attempt.
13>20 is a pretty big increase, though. I would set an extremely high DC, and let them know ahead of time that it is going to be a very difficult jump.
Yeah, a 20 foot gap sounds a bit much for all but the best of jumpers. Between his jump distance being 7 feet short and walking distance being 5 feet short without dashing...
Maybe if they dashed, you could let them roll for extra jump distance. Maybe make the extra distance depend on the roll, like -10 then ÷2 (like how ability modifiers work).
Thank you all for the replies, i did solidly have one of my answers answered. I did not notice under the description for Athletics that it states:
"You try to jump an unusually long distance or pull off a stunt midjump"
In previous comments i did state that i was okay with the PC attempting the jump, more so asking for clarification, DC set for the jump, or just making sure that the ruling was fair. I'm all in favor of allowing PC's to attempt something unrealistic or above their limits, within reason.
I see some people saying that if they did dash, or increase their movement speed they could then attempt to clear the jump, what limitation if any is on this?
Can a Rogue action dash, bonus action dash, and make an Athletics check and clear 90 ft. ? Is a 30 ft. gap realistically the farthest DC jump you could make (DC 30) ?
I see some people saying that if they did dash, or increase their movement speed they could then attempt to clear the jump, what limitation if any is on this?
This I think is mostly referring to how jump distance counts as movement, so you can't jump further than your speed allows.
Jump distance should still be within reason even if you can move 90 feet. 1.5×STR is the realistic maximum with a good athletics check. Tools like a pole vault could extend it further at your discretion.
Assuming you have no additional features that improve jump distance (such as step of the wind), 30 feet is a pretty astronomical leap, but still may be in the realm of possibility for a superhuman adventurer.
The world record for long jumping is around 29 feet. It involves a huge running start, and it involves sticking your feet out at the last second and falling backwards - not ideal for actually crossing a chasm. So a hero who is the pinnacle of athleticism, with 20 strength and Athletics proficiency, who uses their dash action for a running start, might be able to pull off a 30 foot jump, but its gonna be hella difficult.
My general rule would probably be this: If you take the dash action on your turn and run at least 20 feet, you can make an Athletics check to add up to half your normal jump distance. So a 20 Str character could attempt a 30 foot long jump, while a 10 Str character could attempt a 15 foot long jump. Without a dash, I'd only allow a quarter of your distance extra, just for that extra lunge. For DC, I'd roll with something like 10 + (2*additional feet). So if you want to jump 5 extra feet, make a DC 20 check. If you want to jump 10 extra feet, make a DC 30 check.
If your world tends to be a bit more supernatural, with heroes jumping around like anime characters or comic book heroes, you could tweak down the numbers and make it a bit easier to make these sorts of jumps. Also, if you have some way to parkour your way across, you could bring the numbers down a bit. This would just be for a raw leap.
Assuming you have no additional features that improve jump distance (such as step of the wind), 30 feet is a pretty astronomical leap, but still may be in the realm of possibility for a superhuman adventurer.
The world record for long jumping is around 29 feet. It involves a huge running start, and it involves sticking your feet out at the last second and falling backwards - not ideal for actually crossing a chasm. So a hero who is the pinnacle of athleticism, with 20 strength and Athletics proficiency, who uses their dash action for a running start, might be able to pull off a 30 foot jump, but its gonna be hella difficult.
My general rule would probably be this: If you take the dash action on your turn and run at least 20 feet, you can make an Athletics check to add up to half your normal jump distance. So a 20 Str character could attempt a 30 foot long jump, while a 10 Str character could attempt a 15 foot long jump. Without a dash, I'd only allow a quarter of your distance extra, just for that extra lunge. For DC, I'd roll with something like 10 + (2*additional feet). So if you want to jump 5 extra feet, make a DC 20 check. If you want to jump 10 extra feet, make a DC 30 check.
Thanks, something like this is what i was looking for. As RAW says Athletics can be attempted for an unusually long jump, curious others limitation on the unusual part. I try to keep the world grounded in reality, but there are wizards, dragons, and magic in the world so hard to be realistic. That being said though, there are spells, magic items, and abilities that do specifically increase peoples jump distance, and don't want to make them obsolete
I see some people saying that if they did dash, or increase their movement speed they could then attempt to clear the jump, what limitation if any is on this?
This I think is mostly referring to how jump distance counts as movement, so you can't jump further than your speed allows.
Jump distance should still be within reason even if you can move 90 feet. 1.5×STR is the realistic maximum with a good athletics check. Tools like a pole vault could extend it further at your discretion.
That seems to be a good rule of thumb too, thanks, which seems to line up with another reply, i dont think its out of the question for someone to jump farther than they normally do within reason
That's fair, but the Angry GM offered a very good piece of advice once for resolving where a given skill check belongs if multiple skills could all be said to apply, such as this wallrunning example. To paraphrase:
"Many ability checks can be argued to involve multiple skills, such as Athletics vs. Acrobatics. Elements of each skill contributes to the check. But one element has to contribute the most to that check. One of those elements is the one all the others are there to make the best of, or to interfere with. Identifying that key make-or-break factor is what tells you which ability to use, and once you've identified it, the player doesn't get to hornswoggle their way into using a different ability."
His example was actually, quite specifically, long jumps. The key factor for long jumping is Strength - the ability to generate enough raw force with your li'l Adventuring feeties and the fancy meat sticks they're attached to to get your great galumphing corpus across a given distance. if you don't have the ability to generate enough force to clear the distance, no amount of gymnastics training is going to help. Save maybe at the bottom, if the drop isn't too terrible.
You could make the argument that this wallrunning thing is an Acrobatics check, sure. If the player is good at talking up their game, I could see letting them have it. It would be a Strength (Acrobatics) check though, not a Dex (Acrobatics) check, to try and actually clear the gap. Because as you've pointed out yourself, you're actually increasing the amount of distance you have to clear using this method and requiring more total force/momentum to do it. Dexterity, in this instance, could help you get better positioning to make the most of your leg strength, but if you don't have the raw leg strength to clear the gap? No amount of ballet training is getting you across that twenty feet of nofloorium. It is the price one pays for dropping Strength on absolutely every single character in D&D that isn't a barbarian.
The argument would be strength for length through raw power (basic jump distance), dexterity for extending that length through tricky maneuver (parkour aspect).
There is an argument that, if it is possible at all, it requires both to be successful. If the person was literally jumping through hoops, would that be just strength/athletics, despite the fact jumping too high fails just as much as jumping too low??
The conclusion i have for this is maybe 2 checks? An Athletic for the power behind the jump to actually clear the gap, and treating the wall as difficult terrain so an Acrobatic check to not twist your ankle? Thoughts?
Never, ever, roll two checks to resolve one action. One action, one roll - if any. Multiple checks are just dragging out the game and fishing unfairly for failure.
I don't know if I'd say never. If you can break an action down into multiple interesting success/failure states, multiple rolls can work well.
For this particular case, though, I'd probably go with one roll. There isn't an interesting middle ground for only succeeding on one roll. Its just a failed jump.
I don't know if I'd say never. If you can break an action down into multiple interesting success/failure states, multiple rolls can work well.
For this particular case, though, I'd probably go with one roll. There isn't an interesting middle ground for only succeeding on one roll. Its just a failed jump.
If you do do that, you should reduce the DC of the individual checks as having multiple checks naturally increases the odds of failure.
No need to reduce the DC, as long as you are properly creating multiple interesting tiers of success/failure. I've found that in most cases, it actually decreases the odds of failure by introducing states like 'partial success' or 'success with consequences', which still result in positive progress for the players. Straight up failure only happens when both rolls fail.
No need to reduce the DC, as long as you are properly creating multiple interesting tiers of success/failure. I've found that in most cases, it actually decreases the odds of failure by introducing states like 'partial success' or 'success with consequences', which still result in positive progress for the players. Straight up failure only happens when both rolls fail.
The scenario is a jump across a 20' chasm. What partial successes do not result in falling into the chasm?
Catching the ledge and having to make another check to pull yourself up, maybe.
Or landing prone.
Or clipping/crashing into something and taking a little damage.
Would increasing your movement speed increase your jumping distance? Was another topic brought up, as stated your jump distance is equal to your Str score given you have 10 ft. to run and jump and each ft. traveled jumping is equal to a ft. of movement meaning you cannot jump farther than your movement would allow you.
I would say yes, movement speed is more momentum, so more air time.
By using this statement, you are totally erasing the jumping limitation rules that exist, and are completely into Homebrew. There is a sub-channel for Homebrew rules. This is not that sub-channel.
I'm really not. More movement speed heightens the jump ceiling allowing for longer jumps provided the strength is present or a DC is met via athletics. This is all RAW.
Thank you all for the replies, i did solidly have one of my answers answered. I did not notice under the description for Athletics that it states:
"You try to jump an unusually long distance or pull off a stunt midjump"
In previous comments i did state that i was okay with the PC attempting the jump, more so asking for clarification, DC set for the jump, or just making sure that the ruling was fair. I'm all in favor of allowing PC's to attempt something unrealistic or above their limits, within reason.
I see some people saying that if they did dash, or increase their movement speed they could then attempt to clear the jump, what limitation if any is on this?
Can a Rogue action dash, bonus action dash, and make an Athletics check and clear 90 ft. ? Is a 30 ft. gap realistically the farthest DC jump you could make (DC 30) ?
It's also worth to note that strength characters already doesn't have a ton going for them, and athletics is their only skill. So they should be able to utilize this for awesome things imo.
I really like the idea of making an athletics check and having the minimum result be your strength score. Proficiency in athletics will contribute, and it makes gambling work for jumps - you roll as your feet leave the side of the chasm, not when you're eyeing it up to see if you can make it!
I would probably also say, in making this my own houserule (which I've decided that I am), that making a jump further than your strength score would cost a bonus action (it's a big thing to do) and it would be that your proficiency bonus (if applicable) is added after you change the roll to its minimum, if applicable, so if you're proficient in athletics, you guarantee adding your proficiency to your jump distance, at the expense of a bonus action.
All of which is houserules on how to make it work!
Would increasing your movement speed increase your jumping distance? Was another topic brought up, as stated your jump distance is equal to your Str score given you have 10 ft. to run and jump and each ft. traveled jumping is equal to a ft. of movement meaning you cannot jump farther than your movement would allow you.
I would say yes, movement speed is more momentum, so more air time.
By using this statement, you are totally erasing the jumping limitation rules that exist, and are completely into Homebrew. There is a sub-channel for Homebrew rules. This is not that sub-channel.
I'm really not. More movement speed heightens the jump ceiling allowing for longer jumps provided the strength is present or a DC is met via athletics. This is all RAW.
If you are saying that movement = higher arc, sure, I totally agree when in enclosed spaces.
But as soon as you start saying "in general, movement = longer jump distance", an 8 Str Hasted Wood Elf Scout Rogue will just love you, or a Monk. I am all about realism in D&D, especially when it comes to physical stuff like Jumping, Falling, and Grappling. But there has to be limits, or the mechanics of the game fall away. The fastest people on the planet, the 100 M sprinters, have a good look at them. The amount that are thin waifs is, well, like zero. They are all well muscled machines. Pound for pound, they are some of the strongest people on the planet. If we are going to somehow incorporate Str into movement, that means a complete overhaul of Movement (including Jumping) mechanics.
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As Quin pointed out, the issue here is the entry under the Athletics score that specifically says you can use it to "jump an unusually long distance or pull off a stunt midjump."
The player is attempting to do something the rules tell them they can do.
What is the context of this chasm? It sounds like you really didn't want the character to get across. Was it meant to be uncrossable? What were the consequences of letting them succeed and what would have been the consequences of failure?
I would generally allow this if it came up at my table, but I would want to factor in encumbrance and say that if they want to exceed their normal long jump they need to leave any really heavy stuff behind. A fighter in full plate is probably going to have to take it off. A naked barbarian with just an axe could just go ahead and jump. As a skinny awkward teenager in high school I could easily clear 15ft with a running start. An athletic adventurer should be able to clear 20 feet with no issue as long as they weren't carrying 200 pounds of gear.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
DC 25 Athletics check to jump between two walls separated by like 4-5 feet. If passed I would allow you to "climb" the walls despite there not being a solid surface to hold on to.
Failure means you fall about half way up and take the relevant fall damage.
Just want to point out that there is precedence for what the player is asking for.
You are by no means obligated to allow it, but I don't think its unreasonable for a player to attempt.
13>20 is a pretty big increase, though. I would set an extremely high DC, and let them know ahead of time that it is going to be a very difficult jump.
Yeah, a 20 foot gap sounds a bit much for all but the best of jumpers. Between his jump distance being 7 feet short and walking distance being 5 feet short without dashing...
Maybe if they dashed, you could let them roll for extra jump distance. Maybe make the extra distance depend on the roll, like -10 then ÷2 (like how ability modifiers work).
Thank you all for the replies, i did solidly have one of my answers answered. I did not notice under the description for Athletics that it states:
"You try to jump an unusually long distance or pull off a stunt midjump"
In previous comments i did state that i was okay with the PC attempting the jump, more so asking for clarification, DC set for the jump, or just making sure that the ruling was fair. I'm all in favor of allowing PC's to attempt something unrealistic or above their limits, within reason.
I see some people saying that if they did dash, or increase their movement speed they could then attempt to clear the jump, what limitation if any is on this?
Can a Rogue action dash, bonus action dash, and make an Athletics check and clear 90 ft. ? Is a 30 ft. gap realistically the farthest DC jump you could make (DC 30) ?
This I think is mostly referring to how jump distance counts as movement, so you can't jump further than your speed allows.
Jump distance should still be within reason even if you can move 90 feet. 1.5×STR is the realistic maximum with a good athletics check. Tools like a pole vault could extend it further at your discretion.
Assuming you have no additional features that improve jump distance (such as step of the wind), 30 feet is a pretty astronomical leap, but still may be in the realm of possibility for a superhuman adventurer.
The world record for long jumping is around 29 feet. It involves a huge running start, and it involves sticking your feet out at the last second and falling backwards - not ideal for actually crossing a chasm. So a hero who is the pinnacle of athleticism, with 20 strength and Athletics proficiency, who uses their dash action for a running start, might be able to pull off a 30 foot jump, but its gonna be hella difficult.
My general rule would probably be this: If you take the dash action on your turn and run at least 20 feet, you can make an Athletics check to add up to half your normal jump distance. So a 20 Str character could attempt a 30 foot long jump, while a 10 Str character could attempt a 15 foot long jump. Without a dash, I'd only allow a quarter of your distance extra, just for that extra lunge. For DC, I'd roll with something like 10 + (2*additional feet). So if you want to jump 5 extra feet, make a DC 20 check. If you want to jump 10 extra feet, make a DC 30 check.
If your world tends to be a bit more supernatural, with heroes jumping around like anime characters or comic book heroes, you could tweak down the numbers and make it a bit easier to make these sorts of jumps. Also, if you have some way to parkour your way across, you could bring the numbers down a bit. This would just be for a raw leap.
Thanks, something like this is what i was looking for. As RAW says Athletics can be attempted for an unusually long jump, curious others limitation on the unusual part. I try to keep the world grounded in reality, but there are wizards, dragons, and magic in the world so hard to be realistic. That being said though, there are spells, magic items, and abilities that do specifically increase peoples jump distance, and don't want to make them obsolete
That seems to be a good rule of thumb too, thanks, which seems to line up with another reply, i dont think its out of the question for someone to jump farther than they normally do within reason
The conclusion i have for this is maybe 2 checks? An Athletic for the power behind the jump to actually clear the gap, and treating the wall as difficult terrain so an Acrobatic check to not twist your ankle? Thoughts?
Never, ever, roll two checks to resolve one action. One action, one roll - if any. Multiple checks are just dragging out the game and fishing unfairly for failure.
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I don't know if I'd say never. If you can break an action down into multiple interesting success/failure states, multiple rolls can work well.
For this particular case, though, I'd probably go with one roll. There isn't an interesting middle ground for only succeeding on one roll. Its just a failed jump.
Thanks for the replies!
If you do do that, you should reduce the DC of the individual checks as having multiple checks naturally increases the odds of failure.
No need to reduce the DC, as long as you are properly creating multiple interesting tiers of success/failure. I've found that in most cases, it actually decreases the odds of failure by introducing states like 'partial success' or 'success with consequences', which still result in positive progress for the players. Straight up failure only happens when both rolls fail.
Catching the ledge and having to make another check to pull yourself up, maybe.
Or landing prone.
Or clipping/crashing into something and taking a little damage.
Or dropping a weapon you were carrying.
Like, so many things.
I'm really not. More movement speed heightens the jump ceiling allowing for longer jumps provided the strength is present or a DC is met via athletics. This is all RAW.
Altrazin Aghanes - Wizard/Fighter
Varpulis Windhowl - Fighter
Skolson Demjon - Cleric/Fighter
It's also worth to note that strength characters already doesn't have a ton going for them, and athletics is their only skill. So they should be able to utilize this for awesome things imo.
Altrazin Aghanes - Wizard/Fighter
Varpulis Windhowl - Fighter
Skolson Demjon - Cleric/Fighter
I really like the idea of making an athletics check and having the minimum result be your strength score. Proficiency in athletics will contribute, and it makes gambling work for jumps - you roll as your feet leave the side of the chasm, not when you're eyeing it up to see if you can make it!
I would probably also say, in making this my own houserule (which I've decided that I am), that making a jump further than your strength score would cost a bonus action (it's a big thing to do) and it would be that your proficiency bonus (if applicable) is added after you change the roll to its minimum, if applicable, so if you're proficient in athletics, you guarantee adding your proficiency to your jump distance, at the expense of a bonus action.
All of which is houserules on how to make it work!
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If you are saying that movement = higher arc, sure, I totally agree when in enclosed spaces.
But as soon as you start saying "in general, movement = longer jump distance", an 8 Str Hasted Wood Elf Scout Rogue will just love you, or a Monk. I am all about realism in D&D, especially when it comes to physical stuff like Jumping, Falling, and Grappling. But there has to be limits, or the mechanics of the game fall away. The fastest people on the planet, the 100 M sprinters, have a good look at them. The amount that are thin waifs is, well, like zero. They are all well muscled machines. Pound for pound, they are some of the strongest people on the planet. If we are going to somehow incorporate Str into movement, that means a complete overhaul of Movement (including Jumping) mechanics.