Hi everyone, I was wondering about the interaction between the two bullet points of the healer's feat, and the "fast hand" ability
Fast Hands
Starting at 3rd level, you can use the bonus action granted by your Cunning Action to make a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check, use your thieves’ tools to disarm a trap or open a lock, or take the Use an object action.
Healer's feat
When you use a healer's kit to stabilize a dying creature, that creature also regains 1 hit point.
As an action, you can spend one use of a healer's kit to tend to a creature and restore 1d6 + 4 hit points to it, plus additional hit points equal to the creature's maximum number of Hit Dice. The creature can't regain hit points from this feat again until it finishes a short or long rest.
Are the two previous points considered "Use an object action"? So could you bring an unconscious ally back to 1HP with a bonus action? And could you heal an ally with a bonus action? if those two are valid, could you by extension use bonus action, bring someone back to 1 HP, action, tend to their wounds?
Hi everyone, I was wondering about the interaction between the two bullet points of the healer's feat, and the "fast hand" ability
Fast Hands
Starting at 3rd level, you can use the bonus action granted by your Cunning Action to make a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check, use your thieves’ tools to disarm a trap or open a lock, or take the Use an object action.
Healer's feat
When you use a healer's kit to stabilize a dying creature, that creature also regains 1 hit point.
As an action, you can spend one use of a healer's kit to tend to a creature and restore 1d6 + 4 hit points to it, plus additional hit points equal to the creature's maximum number of Hit Dice. The creature can't regain hit points from this feat again until it finishes a short or long rest.
Are the two previous points considered "Use an object action"? So could you bring an unconscious ally back to 1HP with a bonus action? And could you heal an ally with a bonus action? if those two are valid, could you by extension use bonus action, bring someone back to 1 HP, action, tend to their wounds?
Thanks, and wishing you all good rolls!
The top bullet point is 100% the use an object action, meaning you can bring an unconscious ally back to 1 hp as a bonus action, and then as an action do whatever, including tending to their wounds.
The second bullet point is weedier because it's common and typical for the rules to fail to clearly identify an action - it's likewise a matter of skub whether throwing an acid vial is the Attack action or the Use an Item action, in terms of interacting with both Fast Hands and Extra Attack. Different DMs may have different opinions, with radically different consequences. I would interpret the second bullet point as the use an object action, but others might disagree - in particular, it might be a custom action, like the one used to drink a magic potion (which doesn't work with Fast Hands because the DMG says so).
I'm with quin on this one. #2 is a gray area, and I'm kind of leaning away from it being technically compatible, but I don't feel strongly about it and I would definitely let someone do it if they spent a feat on being a healer.
@edge2054 Can a thief with the healer feat use healing kits as a bonus action? Can it drink potions as a bonus action?
@JeremyECrawford Yes, a thief could use a healer's kit as a bonus action. But the DMG clarifies that magic item use is its own thing.
I think we are all in agreement about this part. The only question was whether the action granted by the healer's feat's second bullet point would fall under the [Tooltip Not Found] action or whether it is its own thing (the "tend to a creature" action, if you like). I say it's close enough that it really doesn't matter.
@edge2054 Can a thief with the healer feat use healing kits as a bonus action? Can it drink potions as a bonus action?
@JeremyECrawford Yes, a thief could use a healer's kit as a bonus action. But the DMG clarifies that magic item use is its own thing.
I think we are all in agreement about this part. The only question was whether the action granted by the healer's feat's second bullet point would fall under the use an object action or whether it is its own thing (the "tend to a creature" action, if you like). I say it's close enough that it really doesn't matter.
It falls under it as a general rule on Use an Object action as previously posted
Neither stabilizing a creature or the 2nd bullet point of the Healer feat are use an object interactions, they are both actions. An action can be used to perform an object interaction but, not the other way around.
Stabilizing a Creature
The best way to save a creature with 0 hit points is to heal it. If healing is unavailable, the creature can at least be stabilized so that it isn't killed by a failed death saving throw.
You can use your action to administer first aid to an unconscious creature and attempt to stabilize it, which requires a successful DC 10 Wisdom (Medicine) check.
Using a Healer Kit simply lets you skip the Medicine check roll.
Using a Healer's Kit to stabilize a creature is very much a [Tooltip Not Found] action. Stabilizing with a Medicine check would take your action because you don't necessarily know what you're doing.
Incidentally, Arcane Tricksters can also use a Healer's Kit with their bonus action if it's done using their Mage Hand, since that can perform the Use an Object action (within limits.)
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I would say RAW, Stabilizing is usually an Action, but “using a healer's kit” is definitely [Tooltip Not Found]. However, the second bp opens with the key phrase “as an action,” meaning that would be it’s own special action. However, the healer's kit is little more than a lolmeme (much like the net) since anyone can stabilize a fallen creature, even without proficiency in Medicine The only thing that makes them remotely relevant to any but the most oddly composed parties* is that feat. If a Player actually spends an ASI on that feat, and they happen to be a Thief, it likely wouldn’t hurt anything if they did it as a bonus action. After all, that feat can only restore those hit points to each creature 1ce/day.
But let’s face it, that second bp is not super useful during combat 90% of the time. The difference between standing up with 1 HP, or standing up with 1d6+5-24 HP is nil as a single hit will likely drop them again anyway. I have found that second bp much more useful outside of combat to supplement spending hit dice for those times when a PC just doesn’t have enough.
* (A party sans a single Artificer, Cleric, Paladin, Ranger, Aasimar, or anyone who has taken either the Magic/Artificer Initiate Feats to pick up spare the dying, or who is proficient with the Herbalism Kit to make a potion of healing.)
Neither stabilizing a creature or the 2nd bullet point of the Healer feat are use an object interactions, they are both actions. An action can be used to perform an object interaction but, not the other way around.
When a healer's kit requires your action for its use, you take the Use an Object action and expend one use of the kit to eighter to stabilize or restore hit points if you have the Healer's feat. If you have Fast Hand, you can use a bonus action to take the Use an object action instead of a an action.
Much like all other equipment such as acid, alchemist fire, ball bearings and caltrops usable as an actions, Fast Hand let's it use them as a bonus action instead.
Using a Healer's Kit to stabilize a creature is very much a use an object action. Stabilizing with a Medicine check would take your action because you don't necessarily know what you're doing.
Incidentally, Arcane Tricksters can also use a Healer's Kit with their bonus action if it's done using their Mage Hand, since that can perform the Use an Object action (within limits.)
When a healer's kit requires your action for its use, you take the Use an Object action and expend one use of the kit to eighter to stabilize or restore hit points if you have the Healer's feat. If you have Fast Hand, you can use a bonus action to take the Use an object action instead of a an action.
Nothing in the rules says anything of the kind. The text of a Healer's Kit says: "This kit is a leather pouch containing bandages, salves, and splints. The kit has ten uses. As an action, you can expend one use of the kit to stabilize a creature that has 0 hit points, without needing to make a Wisdom (Medicine) check."
Neither stabilizing a creature or the 2nd bullet point of the Healer feat are use an object interactions, they are both actions. An action can be used to perform an object interaction but, not the other way around.
Healer's Kit is an object and thus using it would naturally fit under the "Use an Object" action and that has been explicitly backed up by Crawford tweets (healer's feat) and in the SAC (stabilizing).
If you want to moan a bit about them being stupid for doing so then go right ahead but your argument doesn't have a leg to stand on.
If this isn't the exact kind of thing that the Fast Hands ability is meant to accomplish, then what is the feature even for? I know that it's mostly used to take advantage of a lot of those little items that often aren't really worth a full action... dropping caltrops, igniting oil, etc. I find it kind of wild that Thief rogues are so under-represented, despite being kind of the "default" Rogue, and I think part of it is because Fast Hands is often under-utilized because of problems like this. I, for one, didn't even realize that they can't even use Potions with this ability, since they're technically considered Magic Items.
Using a Healer's Kit to stabilize a creature is very much a use an object action. Stabilizing with a Medicine check would take your action because you don't necessarily know what you're doing.
Incidentally, Arcane Tricksters can also use a Healer's Kit with their bonus action if it's done using their Mage Hand, since that can perform the Use an Object action (within limits.)
When a healer's kit requires your action for its use, you take the Use an Object action and expend one use of the kit to eighter to stabilize or restore hit points if you have the Healer's feat. If you have Fast Hand, you can use a bonus action to take the Use an object action instead of a an action.
Nothing in the rules says anything of the kind.
The rules say this and Fast Hand let you Use an Object as a bonus action instead of an action.
Use an Object: When an object requires your action for its use, you take the Use an Object action.
That's neat Plaguescarred. An attack with a Rogue requires a weapon, which is also an object. Am I to assume that you can now use Fast Hands to make another attack?
We know that answer is, no. You use the Attack action. Taking a potion doesn't use the Use an Object action, it uses an action. It is clearly stated under potions. Healer's Kits are the same thing, also clearly stated that you use an action. The only time you use an action to perform a Use an Object action is when you have already used the free item interaction.
Use an Object
You normally interact with an object while doing something else, such as when you draw a sword as part of an attack. When an object requires your action for its use, you take the Use an Object action. This action is also useful when you want to interact with more than one object on your turn.
INTERACTING WITH OBJECTS AROUND YOU
Here are a few examples of the sorts of thing you can do in tandem with your movement and action:
draw or sheathe a sword
open or close a door
withdraw a potion from your backpack
pick up a dropped axe
take a bauble from a table
remove a ring from your finger
stuff some food into your mouth
plant a banner in the ground
fish a few coins from your belt pouch
drink all the ale in a flagon
throw a lever or a switch
pull a torch from a sconce
take a book from a shelf you can reach
extinguish a small flame
don a mask
pull the hood of your cloak up and over your head
put your ear to a door
kick a small stone
turn a key in a lock
tap the floor with a 10-foot pole
hand an item to another character
Seems to me the examples suggest that Use an Object is limited to much simpler tasks than multi step interactions. You can take out that potion but, not use it. Now here is the kicker. A specific example is made in Fast Hands of being able use the ability to "use your thieves’ tools to disarm a trap or open a lock". We know this is an ability check and normally requires an action, it is not a Use an Object so, we know this is distinctly different from the part that states "or take the Use an object action" that immediately follows and ends the sentence. If they were the same thing, why list both?
If you want to follow JC's advice, do so. If you want to ignore mine and the evidence I provide for my opinion, do so. The people I play with agree with my outlook on this whether I am a player or the DM so, if you disagree with my stance, it really doesn't matter. I answered to OP's question to the best of my knowledge.
That's neat Plaguescarred. An attack with a Rogue requires a weapon, which is also an object. Am I to assume that you can now use Fast Hands to make another attack?
We know that answer is, no. You use the Attack action.
The answer is yes. A rogue can attack using such item since they specifically let anyone attack with them using the Use an Object action.
For potion it's specific to magic items as the Dev already mentioned, otherwise rogues could also use them as a bonus action.
That's neat Plaguescarred. An attack with a Rogue requires a weapon, which is also an object. Am I to assume that you can now use Fast Hands to make another attack?
We know that answer is, no. You use the Attack action. Taking a potion doesn't use the Use an Object action, it uses an action. It is clearly stated under potions. Healer's Kits are the same thing, also clearly stated that you use an action. The only time you use an action to perform a Use an Object action is when you have already used the free item interaction.
Use an Object
You normally interact with an object while doing something else, such as when you draw a sword as part of an attack. When an object requires your action for its use, you take the Use an Object action. This action is also useful when you want to interact with more than one object on your turn.
INTERACTING WITH OBJECTS AROUND YOU
Here are a few examples of the sorts of thing you can do in tandem with your movement and action:
draw or sheathe a sword
open or close a door
withdraw a potion from your backpack
pick up a dropped axe
take a bauble from a table
remove a ring from your finger
stuff some food into your mouth
plant a banner in the ground
fish a few coins from your belt pouch
drink all the ale in a flagon
throw a lever or a switch
pull a torch from a sconce
take a book from a shelf you can reach
extinguish a small flame
don a mask
pull the hood of your cloak up and over your head
put your ear to a door
kick a small stone
turn a key in a lock
tap the floor with a 10-foot pole
hand an item to another character
Seems to me the examples suggest that Use an Object is limited to much simpler tasks than multi step interactions. You can take out that potion but, not use it. Now here is the kicker. A specific example is made in Fast Hands of being able use the ability to "use your thieves’ tools to disarm a trap or open a lock". We know this is an ability check and normally requires an action, it is not a Use an Object so, we know this is distinctly different from the part that states "or take the Use an object action" that immediately follows and ends the sentence. If they were the same thing, why list both?
If you want to follow JC's advice, do so. If you want to ignore mine and the evidence I provide for my opinion, do so. The people I play with agree with my outlook on this whether I am a player or the DM so, if you disagree with my stance, it really doesn't matter. I answered to OP's question to the best of my knowledge.
That Interacting With Objects Around You list of examples is in the Movement and Position section of the Rules, and is meant to give examples of object interactions you can do as part of your action or movement - the "free object interaction". Use an Object is described in the Actions in Combat section. It's meant for more complex object interactions than unsheathing a sword or opening a door, and as it says, applies to when an Object says you use your action to use it - like acid, alchemist's fire, ball bearings, caltrops, climber's kit, Healer's Kit, hunting trap, or tinderbox. Arguably it would count for applying poison too. They specifically call out use of thieves' tools in Fast Hands (and Arcane Trickster's Mage Hand Legerdemain) because the tools don't say they take an action to use.
Hi everyone,
I was wondering about the interaction between the two bullet points of the healer's feat, and the "fast hand" ability
Fast Hands
Starting at 3rd level, you can use the bonus action granted by your Cunning Action to make a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check, use your thieves’ tools to disarm a trap or open a lock, or take the Use an object action.
Healer's feat
Are the two previous points considered "Use an object action"?
So could you bring an unconscious ally back to 1HP with a bonus action?
And could you heal an ally with a bonus action?
if those two are valid, could you by extension use bonus action, bring someone back to 1 HP, action, tend to their wounds?
Thanks, and wishing you all good rolls!
I'm with quin on this one. #2 is a gray area, and I'm kind of leaning away from it being technically compatible, but I don't feel strongly about it and I would definitely let someone do it if they spent a feat on being a healer.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Fast Hand use a bonus action to Use an Object action, including healer's kit used in combination with Healer's feat.
Use an Object: When an object requires your action for its use, you take the Use an Object action.
It was confirmed by a Dev on twitter https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/525714673614602241
@edge2054 Can a thief with the healer feat use healing kits as a bonus action? Can it drink potions as a bonus action?
@JeremyECrawford Yes, a thief could use a healer's kit as a bonus action. But the DMG clarifies that magic item use is its own thing.
thanks for the reply everyone, that's how I was understanding how all of it was working, now I just need to convince my DM it is working that way.
I think we are all in agreement about this part. The only question was whether the action granted by the healer's feat's second bullet point would fall under the [Tooltip Not Found] action or whether it is its own thing (the "tend to a creature" action, if you like). I say it's close enough that it really doesn't matter.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
It falls under it as a general rule on Use an Object action as previously posted
Neither stabilizing a creature or the 2nd bullet point of the Healer feat are use an object interactions, they are both actions. An action can be used to perform an object interaction but, not the other way around.
Using a Healer Kit simply lets you skip the Medicine check roll.
Using a Healer's Kit to stabilize a creature is very much a [Tooltip Not Found] action. Stabilizing with a Medicine check would take your action because you don't necessarily know what you're doing.
Incidentally, Arcane Tricksters can also use a Healer's Kit with their bonus action if it's done using their Mage Hand, since that can perform the Use an Object action (within limits.)
Helpful rewriter of Japanese->English translation and delver into software codebases (she/e/they)
I would say RAW, Stabilizing is usually an Action, but “using a healer's kit” is definitely [Tooltip Not Found]. However, the second bp opens with the key phrase “as an action,” meaning that would be it’s own special action. However, the healer's kit is little more than a lolmeme (much like the net) since anyone can stabilize a fallen creature, even without proficiency in Medicine The only thing that makes them remotely relevant to any but the most oddly composed parties* is that feat. If a Player actually spends an ASI on that feat, and they happen to be a Thief, it likely wouldn’t hurt anything if they did it as a bonus action. After all, that feat can only restore those hit points to each creature 1ce/day.
But let’s face it, that second bp is not super useful during combat 90% of the time. The difference between standing up with 1 HP, or standing up with 1d6+5-24 HP is nil as a single hit will likely drop them again anyway. I have found that second bp much more useful outside of combat to supplement spending hit dice for those times when a PC just doesn’t have enough.
* (A party sans a single Artificer, Cleric, Paladin, Ranger, Aasimar, or anyone who has taken either the Magic/Artificer Initiate Feats to pick up spare the dying, or who is proficient with the Herbalism Kit to make a potion of healing.)
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When a healer's kit requires your action for its use, you take the Use an Object action and expend one use of the kit to eighter to stabilize or restore hit points if you have the Healer's feat. If you have Fast Hand, you can use a bonus action to take the Use an object action instead of a an action.
Much like all other equipment such as acid, alchemist fire, ball bearings and caltrops usable as an actions, Fast Hand let's it use them as a bonus action instead.
Nothing in the rules says anything of the kind. The text of a Healer's Kit says: "This kit is a leather pouch containing bandages, salves, and splints. The kit has ten uses. As an action, you can expend one use of the kit to stabilize a creature that has 0 hit points, without needing to make a Wisdom (Medicine) check."
Healer's Kit is an object and thus using it would naturally fit under the "Use an Object" action and that has been explicitly backed up by Crawford tweets (healer's feat) and in the SAC (stabilizing).
If you want to moan a bit about them being stupid for doing so then go right ahead but your argument doesn't have a leg to stand on.
If this isn't the exact kind of thing that the Fast Hands ability is meant to accomplish, then what is the feature even for? I know that it's mostly used to take advantage of a lot of those little items that often aren't really worth a full action... dropping caltrops, igniting oil, etc. I find it kind of wild that Thief rogues are so under-represented, despite being kind of the "default" Rogue, and I think part of it is because Fast Hands is often under-utilized because of problems like this. I, for one, didn't even realize that they can't even use Potions with this ability, since they're technically considered Magic Items.
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The rules say this and Fast Hand let you Use an Object as a bonus action instead of an action.
Use an Object: When an object requires your action for its use, you take the Use an Object action.
That's neat Plaguescarred. An attack with a Rogue requires a weapon, which is also an object. Am I to assume that you can now use Fast Hands to make another attack?
We know that answer is, no. You use the Attack action. Taking a potion doesn't use the Use an Object action, it uses an action. It is clearly stated under potions. Healer's Kits are the same thing, also clearly stated that you use an action. The only time you use an action to perform a Use an Object action is when you have already used the free item interaction.
Seems to me the examples suggest that Use an Object is limited to much simpler tasks than multi step interactions. You can take out that potion but, not use it. Now here is the kicker. A specific example is made in Fast Hands of being able use the ability to "use your thieves’ tools to disarm a trap or open a lock". We know this is an ability check and normally requires an action, it is not a Use an Object so, we know this is distinctly different from the part that states "or take the Use an object action" that immediately follows and ends the sentence. If they were the same thing, why list both?
If you want to follow JC's advice, do so. If you want to ignore mine and the evidence I provide for my opinion, do so. The people I play with agree with my outlook on this whether I am a player or the DM so, if you disagree with my stance, it really doesn't matter. I answered to OP's question to the best of my knowledge.
The answer is yes. A rogue can attack using such item since they specifically let anyone attack with them using the Use an Object action.
For potion it's specific to magic items as the Dev already mentioned, otherwise rogues could also use them as a bonus action.
That Interacting With Objects Around You list of examples is in the Movement and Position section of the Rules, and is meant to give examples of object interactions you can do as part of your action or movement - the "free object interaction". Use an Object is described in the Actions in Combat section. It's meant for more complex object interactions than unsheathing a sword or opening a door, and as it says, applies to when an Object says you use your action to use it - like acid, alchemist's fire, ball bearings, caltrops, climber's kit, Healer's Kit, hunting trap, or tinderbox. Arguably it would count for applying poison too. They specifically call out use of thieves' tools in Fast Hands (and Arcane Trickster's Mage Hand Legerdemain) because the tools don't say they take an action to use.
Helpful rewriter of Japanese->English translation and delver into software codebases (she/e/they)