The Monster Manual refers to hover-capable flight as making you harder to knock out of the air and references the PHB, so I'm not linking it here as it doesn't seem to have any rules weight.
If a creature has a fly speed with hover that is less than their walking speed (as is typically the case with a level 7 Swarmkeeper), is there a reason they can't use their entire walking speed in the air by using the jump rules? As clarified in the jump rules, you can just jump half your Strength score horizontally and and you can just jump (3+Strength modifier)/2 straight up. In both cases, movement cost is normal - 1 foot per foot. I realize moving downward is awkward with the RAW, so let's ignore that for the sake of this question. Supposing you only want to move horizontally or upwards, can you use the jump rules to turn Fly Speed 10 (Hover) + Walk Speed 30 into 30 feet of airborne movement?
I am not sure I understand your logic, and I don't see how it would be possible to move 30 feet up into the air with a 10 feet flying speed (hover) and 30 feet walking speed. Lets say you make a high jump and jump 5 feet up in the air. Because you have a fly speed greater than 0, you can stay in the air (hover doesn't matter in this context). You can then use your flying movement to fly 10 more feet, putting you a total of 15 feet above the ground. How are you getting a total of 30 feet?
I am not sure I understand your logic, and I don't see how it would be possible to move 30 feet up into the air with a 10 feet flying speed (hover) and 30 feet walking speed. Lets say you make a high jump and jump 5 feet up in the air. Because you have a fly speed greater than 0, you can stay in the air (hover doesn't matter in this context). You can then use your flying movement to fly 10 more feet, putting you a total of 15 feet above the ground. How are you getting a total of 30 feet?
By high jumping again. There's no rule I can find limiting you to only one jump per turn, but the whole point of this thread is that I'm concerned I missed something. But if you can just high jump 5 feet, why can't you high jump 6 times and end your movement 30 feet up?
Because you can't jump when you have no solid surface underneath your feet? I am pretty sure the jumping rules assume that we apply the common understanding of the word "jumping". If we don't, we might as well use our swim speed to swim up into the air as the rules don't explicitly say that a swim speed can only be used in water. If I can jump in air, I can swim in air, I can climb in air, and I can crawl in air. Or am I missing something that makes this logic incoherent?
It's not defined in the D&D rules but conceptually, you can't jump off of nothing. You need a surface to jump off of. So no midair jumping even with a flying speed, hover or not.
However, I don't see any problem with jumping and then hovering to prevent yourself from falling. So whatever distance you get from your first jump can be extended by using your flying speed.
So your movement could be Jump Distance + Flying Speed and even end your movement in midair. But to jump again you'll need a surface to jump from.
Because you can't jump when you have no solid surface underneath your feet? I am pretty sure the jumping rules assume that we apply the common understanding of the word "jumping". If we don't, we might as well use our swim speed to swim up into the air as the rules don't explicitly say that a swim speed can only be used in water. If I can jump in air, I can swim in air, I can climb in air, and I can crawl in air. Or am I missing something that makes this logic incoherent?
There are fly speeds that might supply a surface to jump off of, in particular the hover ones (since if you're knocked prone or even unconscious, you continue to float). The example I gave is one such: swarmkeepers, where the swarm might be supplying a surface you could jump off of. Others exist, like winged boots - there isn't sufficient explanation of how they're letting you fly that the answer could be essentially the same way Monks run up a wall, just without a wall - i.e. they could supply a plane of force to step off of, enabling flight.
There are ways to fly that explicitly supply a surface to jump off of, like a carpet of flying, and the always incredibly-hard-to-understand broom of flying.
If you don't have hover, a lot of this breaks down - non-hover speeds not only usually rely on understandable physics, but if you stop flying to jump, you should just fall. That's why I assumed hover going on, for my question.
I'm gathering you don't know of any relevant rules, either, since you're emphasizing the "common English" definition of the word "jump".
Because you can't jump when you have no solid surface underneath your feet? I am pretty sure the jumping rules assume that we apply the common understanding of the word "jumping". If we don't, we might as well use our swim speed to swim up into the air as the rules don't explicitly say that a swim speed can only be used in water. If I can jump in air, I can swim in air, I can climb in air, and I can crawl in air. Or am I missing something that makes this logic incoherent?
There are fly speeds that might supply a surface to jump off of, in particular the hover ones (since if you're knocked prone or even unconscious, you continue to float). The example I gave is one such: swarmkeepers, where the swarm might be supplying a surface you could jump off of. Others exist, like winged boots - there isn't sufficient explanation of how they're letting you fly that the answer could be essentially the same way Monks run up a wall, just without a wall - i.e. they could supply a plane of force to step off of, enabling flight.
There are ways to fly that explicitly supply a surface to jump off of, like a carpet of flying, and the always incredibly-hard-to-understand broom of flying.
If you don't have hover, a lot of this breaks down - non-hover speeds not only usually rely on understandable physics, but if you stop flying to jump, you should just fall. That's why I assumed hover going on, for my question.
I'm gathering you don't know of any relevant rules, either, since you're emphasizing the "common English" definition of the word "jump".
Carpet of Flying and Broom of Flying are two tangible objects with mass, and are demonstrably capable of holding up your weight, and might therefore be judged suitable to jump off of (DM's discretion). Winged Boots and the swarmkeepers swarm give no indication that you can jump off of them (but again, DM's discretion).
Movement speeds are abstract terms that describe the process of moving. You can't jump off of "swim speed" just as you can't use your "hovering" as a platform.
The only rules I know exist that would be relevant on the matter are "Common English understanding of the words applies unless otherwise specified" and "the rules do what they say they do".
I'm gathering you don't know of any relevant rules, either, since you're emphasizing the "common English" definition of the word "jump".
I mean rule zero is a relevant one here. You can contrive that it's RAW all you want, but the game is run by a human brain because it can look at the whole and say "That's ridiculous. No".
I'm with the others on this one, you cannot jump in the air. The jumping rules say (emphasis is mine):
When you make a high jump, you leap into the air a number of feet equal to 3 + your Strength modifier (minimum of 0 feet) if you move at least 10 feet on foot immediately before the jump. When you make a standing high jump, you can jump only half that distance.
These two statements set the conditions for making a jump and preclude a character from jumping while hovering. You need to either stand or move on a surface to make a jump. Jumping will help the initial flying movement, especially if you take a running jump, but from there on you have to fly.
I'm gathering you don't know of any relevant rules, either, since you're emphasizing the "common English" definition of the word "jump".
I mean rule zero is a relevant one here. You can contrive that it's RAW all you want, but the game is run by a human brain because it can look at the whole and say "That's ridiculous. No".
"Rule Zero" is not a good argument in this particular sub-forum, though.
I am not sure I understand your logic, and I don't see how it would be possible to move 30 feet up into the air with a 10 feet flying speed (hover) and 30 feet walking speed. Lets say you make a high jump and jump 5 feet up in the air. Because you have a fly speed greater than 0, you can stay in the air (hover doesn't matter in this context). You can then use your flying movement to fly 10 more feet, putting you a total of 15 feet above the ground. How are you getting a total of 30 feet?
Just to be clear, you couldn't do that. If you jumped up 5 ft, that's 5 ft of movement used. You could only fly another 5 ft more. Your 10ft fly speed means only the first 10ft of your movement in the turn can be flight.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I recently talked to some of the players/DMs in my group about this, we came to the conclusion that it seemed to work with an initial jump from a surface.
the small fly speed with hover seemed to work well with the tashas roving feature. It allows for the swim speed and climbing speed to be used in situations to set up a jump or otherwise use the small fly speed with hover in useful ways. Climbing 35ft up high up a tree and being able to just let go while being suspended in place makes archery a bit more useful when not having to worry about being knocked out the air.
If you are arguing that you can jump again while you are hovering, then your jumping capacity will be based on your hover speed. If you are currently hovering and have already moved 10 feet on your turn, you have no movement left to spend.
You'll first have to swap back to walking speed in order to use the remaining 20 feet of movement. Doing that, by definition, means putting your feet back on the ground.
I am not sure I understand your logic, and I don't see how it would be possible to move 30 feet up into the air with a 10 feet flying speed (hover) and 30 feet walking speed. Lets say you make a high jump and jump 5 feet up in the air. Because you have a fly speed greater than 0, you can stay in the air (hover doesn't matter in this context). You can then use your flying movement to fly 10 more feet, putting you a total of 15 feet above the ground. How are you getting a total of 30 feet?
Just to be clear, you couldn't do that. If you jumped up 5 ft, that's 5 ft of movement used. You could only fly another 5 ft more. Your 10ft fly speed means only the first 10ft of your movement in the turn can be flight.
Ah yes that is true. In the given scenario you'd be able to fly 10 feet and then run 20 feet but not the other way around.
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PHB: Flying creatures that can hover don't appear to fall.
Xanathar's version, saying the same thing.
The Monster Manual refers to hover-capable flight as making you harder to knock out of the air and references the PHB, so I'm not linking it here as it doesn't seem to have any rules weight.
If a creature has a fly speed with hover that is less than their walking speed (as is typically the case with a level 7 Swarmkeeper), is there a reason they can't use their entire walking speed in the air by using the jump rules? As clarified in the jump rules, you can just jump half your Strength score horizontally and and you can just jump (3+Strength modifier)/2 straight up. In both cases, movement cost is normal - 1 foot per foot. I realize moving downward is awkward with the RAW, so let's ignore that for the sake of this question. Supposing you only want to move horizontally or upwards, can you use the jump rules to turn Fly Speed 10 (Hover) + Walk Speed 30 into 30 feet of airborne movement?
I am not sure I understand your logic, and I don't see how it would be possible to move 30 feet up into the air with a 10 feet flying speed (hover) and 30 feet walking speed.
Lets say you make a high jump and jump 5 feet up in the air. Because you have a fly speed greater than 0, you can stay in the air (hover doesn't matter in this context). You can then use your flying movement to fly 10 more feet, putting you a total of 15 feet above the ground. How are you getting a total of 30 feet?
If you are hovering, you are by definition not walking. Walking speed would not apply.
It would be like trying to apply your walking speed to swimming or burrowing. You can only do one at a time.
By high jumping again. There's no rule I can find limiting you to only one jump per turn, but the whole point of this thread is that I'm concerned I missed something. But if you can just high jump 5 feet, why can't you high jump 6 times and end your movement 30 feet up?
Because you can't jump when you have no solid surface underneath your feet?
I am pretty sure the jumping rules assume that we apply the common understanding of the word "jumping". If we don't, we might as well use our swim speed to swim up into the air as the rules don't explicitly say that a swim speed can only be used in water. If I can jump in air, I can swim in air, I can climb in air, and I can crawl in air. Or am I missing something that makes this logic incoherent?
It's not defined in the D&D rules but conceptually, you can't jump off of nothing. You need a surface to jump off of. So no midair jumping even with a flying speed, hover or not.
However, I don't see any problem with jumping and then hovering to prevent yourself from falling.
So whatever distance you get from your first jump can be extended by using your flying speed.
So your movement could be Jump Distance + Flying Speed and even end your movement in midair.
But to jump again you'll need a surface to jump from.
There are fly speeds that might supply a surface to jump off of, in particular the hover ones (since if you're knocked prone or even unconscious, you continue to float). The example I gave is one such: swarmkeepers, where the swarm might be supplying a surface you could jump off of. Others exist, like winged boots - there isn't sufficient explanation of how they're letting you fly that the answer could be essentially the same way Monks run up a wall, just without a wall - i.e. they could supply a plane of force to step off of, enabling flight.
There are ways to fly that explicitly supply a surface to jump off of, like a carpet of flying, and the always incredibly-hard-to-understand broom of flying.
If you don't have hover, a lot of this breaks down - non-hover speeds not only usually rely on understandable physics, but if you stop flying to jump, you should just fall. That's why I assumed hover going on, for my question.
I'm gathering you don't know of any relevant rules, either, since you're emphasizing the "common English" definition of the word "jump".
Carpet of Flying and Broom of Flying are two tangible objects with mass, and are demonstrably capable of holding up your weight, and might therefore be judged suitable to jump off of (DM's discretion). Winged Boots and the swarmkeepers swarm give no indication that you can jump off of them (but again, DM's discretion).
Movement speeds are abstract terms that describe the process of moving. You can't jump off of "swim speed" just as you can't use your "hovering" as a platform.
The only rules I know exist that would be relevant on the matter are "Common English understanding of the words applies unless otherwise specified" and "the rules do what they say they do".
I mean rule zero is a relevant one here. You can contrive that it's RAW all you want, but the game is run by a human brain because it can look at the whole and say "That's ridiculous. No".
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
I'm with the others on this one, you cannot jump in the air. The jumping rules say (emphasis is mine):
These two statements set the conditions for making a jump and preclude a character from jumping while hovering. You need to either stand or move on a surface to make a jump. Jumping will help the initial flying movement, especially if you take a running jump, but from there on you have to fly.
"Rule Zero" is not a good argument in this particular sub-forum, though.
Just to be clear, you couldn't do that. If you jumped up 5 ft, that's 5 ft of movement used. You could only fly another 5 ft more. Your 10ft fly speed means only the first 10ft of your movement in the turn can be flight.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I recently talked to some of the players/DMs in my group about this, we came to the conclusion that it seemed to work with an initial jump from a surface.
the small fly speed with hover seemed to work well with the tashas roving feature. It allows for the swim speed and climbing speed to be used in situations to set up a jump or otherwise use the small fly speed with hover in useful ways. Climbing 35ft up high up a tree and being able to just let go while being suspended in place makes archery a bit more useful when not having to worry about being knocked out the air.
If you are arguing that you can jump again while you are hovering, then your jumping capacity will be based on your hover speed. If you are currently hovering and have already moved 10 feet on your turn, you have no movement left to spend.
You'll first have to swap back to walking speed in order to use the remaining 20 feet of movement. Doing that, by definition, means putting your feet back on the ground.
Ah yes that is true. In the given scenario you'd be able to fly 10 feet and then run 20 feet but not the other way around.