According the stealth rules, one player is in stealth until he can no longer be in stealth or until the passive perception of one of his foes. According to this, a player could get into invisibility, tell me that he hides until he gets a extremely high roll and then surpass all the foes that he wants because he is virtually indetectable unless he does something so painfully obvious that the guards start actively searching for him.
This doesn't make any sense in my opinion, regardless, to try to understand the practical implications, I would like if you could explain how would you solve the situation that will take place in my session tonight.
The environment is a cabin with only one door and several windows in each side, the house only has one open room that serves has a bedroom. The cabin has two guards in front of the door and it's surronded by a small wall wich is open from the front (in the same area as the door of the cabin). Each corner of the wall has an additionall guard. The objective of the player that is gonna try to enter is to go the bedroom (there is one guy sleeping on the bed), open a chest on the bedroom, and grab from it an important letter (key to the chest is in the bedroom).
The player will. - Cast invisibility on himself and cross half the military camp that surronds the cabin. - Surpass the wall either by walking over it's opening or by climbing it. - Enter through a door (hopefully not, as the guards are just in front of it), through a window (either by breaking it, forcing it, or opening it using a spell) or through the chimney (by climbing the house and then dropping through it). - Search inside the house for the letter. - Open the chest, either by forcing it, using a spell, or finding the key under the bed and using it (maybe he could try to steal the whole chest instead but I don't think he will). - Scaping in a similar fashion he entered.
I will know what foes can potentially detect the player, as I will calculate the audible distance before going in. But I just don't know, and the rules don't want to explain, when I have to ask for each check (I hope the answer is not: one before everything). For me is extremely important to get this right, as depending on the interpretation of the rules I may kill or not one important character for one of my players.
There’s no real hard-and-fast rule for how often you call for a stealth check. In the scenario you outlined, I could reasonably see lots of points where the check would be appropriate. It’s going to be your call as to when they roll them.
The big thing to keep in mind is the more rolls the player makes, the greater chance for failure. So if you want them to succeed, keep the number of rolls to a minimum. Of course, you also want them to earn it. And I imagine the player wants to earn it as well.
I’d go with one roll as they go through the camp, one as they enter. One as they search. Then one more as they exit, and one more going back out. Though that’s 5 rolls, which seems pretty dicey.
Maybe give them advantage on the rolls, because they’re invisible.
I guess the other question is security. In a world where people can turn invisible relatively easily, I’d think the owner of the cabin would take some kind of precautions. Ranging from giving a guard or two true sight, to just having a dog like a mastiff that gets advantage on perception checks that rely on sound or smell.
It might help you if you erase "in stealth" from your vocabulary and replace it with "hiding." It's not a mode you can toggle on and off like in a video game. It's an activity.
I'd say a good rule of thumb is, if the character ever has to stop hiding to do something else, then when they hide again they're making a new check.
That's the thing I hate about 5th stealth. I have to make arbitrary calls to decide if a character will die or not by just plane bad luck. That's why I want to standarize it.
There’s no real hard-and-fast rule for how often you call for a stealth check. In the scenario you outlined, I could reasonably see lots of points where the check would be appropriate. It’s going to be your call as to when they roll them.
The big thing to keep in mind is the more rolls the player makes, the greater chance for failure. So if you want them to succeed, keep the number of rolls to a minimum. Of course, you also want them to earn it. And I imagine the player wants to earn it as well.
I’d go with one roll as they go through the camp, one as they enter. One as they search. Then one more as they exit, and one more going back out. Though that’s 5 rolls, which seems pretty dicey.
Maybe give them advantage on the rolls, because they’re invisible.
I guess the other question is security. In a world where people can turn invisible relatively easily, I’d think the owner of the cabin would take some kind of precautions. Ranging from giving a guard or two true sight, to just having a dog like a mastiff that gets advantage on perception checks that rely on sound or smell.
Invisible already allows a player to roll stealth any round they want, so no need for advantage. They can be right beside a target and use stealth (if they can’t be seen) and try getting away.
And to the OP: It’s best not to design encounters that rely on one singular roll for success and fail. Imagine a bad guy that did infinite damage with each attack but had 1 HP and 0 AC - one initiative roll determines the entire outcome of this battle. That’s basically what you’re designing here if discovery of the stealthy character means their demise.
If you want to make the stealth mission more involved, add levels of failure, ways to re-engage stealth, ways to escape. You can ramp up the difficulty if it’s a pivotal point, but a do-or-die scenario is always going to rub the players the wrong way.
That's the thing I hate about 5th stealth. I have to make arbitrary calls to decide if a character will die or not by just plane bad luck. That's why I want to standarize it.
Then don’t make it life or death. He gets caught, he gets captured. Surely they’ll want to know why someone was snooping around. Who does he work for? What was his mission? That gives him a chance to escape from capture.
And where’s the rest of the party? If I was going to send one person in, I’d try to create a distraction on the opposite end of the camp. The added noise could help cover any sounds the sneaky one makes. ( and it gives the rest of the players something to do.) Maybe a friendly NPC makes the suggestion if the party hasn’t thought of it.
- Cast invisibility on himself and cross half the military camp that surronds the cabin. {Without any description of this place, I can't say much, except that there's unlikely to be an unbroken line he can travel from point A to point B without needing to hide from anyone. Whenever he crosses paths with someone, he should probably hide.} - Surpass the wall either by walking over it's opening or by climbing it. {And quickly hide thereafter, if anyone is around to notice.} - Enter through a door (hopefully not, as the guards are just in front of it) {would be a bold move indeed. I would make it clear that if he does this, he will put those guards on alert -- they won't see him, but they'll start looking.}, through a window (either by breaking it {risky; he'll have to move quickly from here on}, forcing it, or opening it using a spell {probably just as risky as breaking it. Spells usually necessitate or create noise.}) or through the chimney (by climbing the house and then dropping through it). {Most likely to avoid the outside guards, but who knows what's inside? He's going to make some noise coming down.} - Search inside the house for the letter. {Only hiding when he's aware of someone who could notice him. And even then, only when he chooses to. He could just gamble on whether they do notice, or even gamble on what they'd do if they did.} - Open the chest, either by forcing it, using a spell, or finding the key under the bed and using it (maybe he could try to steal the whole chest instead but I don't think he will). - Scaping in a similar fashion he entered.
My suggestions in curly brackets.
You'd better get used to breaking from your plans in order to serve pacing and drama at your table. It's something you'll be doing a lot.
Things to note about Invisibility: it ends if you make an attack or cast a spell. The player will not be able to break a window or cast a spell to open it, among other things. They can, however, use a magic item (like a Rope of Climbing) that doesn't involve casting a spell.
According the stealth rules, one player is in stealth until he can no longer be in stealth or until the passive perception of one of his foes. According to this, a player could get into invisibility, tell me that he hides until he gets a extremely high roll and then
Well, the DM gets to say when the player will roll, not the player.
If he has made a roll to Hide, then that roll will remain in place until something happens to change the situation - the player saying that he is Hiding on the following round will have no effect (and no die roll) because he is already Hiding.
After all, the PC doesn't know how well (or badly) the player rolled, so will assume that they are hiding quite well whilst sneaking under the effects of Invisibility.
While a player character can theorically attempt to hide and un-hide repeatedly until he gets a good roll, this is a metagame problem in nature as it doesn't know how (un)successful it's Stealth is.
Because a Stealth check does nothing alone, when a player character says he attempt to hide, i don't have Stealth check made until a creature can potentional detect its presence. It avoid such metagame and also cut down unecessary rolls if no creature ever come accross.
While a player character can theorically attempt to hide and un-hide repeatedly until he gets a good roll, this is a metagame problem in nature as it doesn't know how (un)successful it's Stealth is.
Because a Stealth check does nothing alone, when a player character says he attempt to hide, i don't have Stealth check made until a creature can potentional detect its presence. It avoid such metagame and also cut down unecessary rolls if no creature ever come accross.
According the stealth rules, one player is in stealth until he can no longer be in stealth or until the passive perception of one of his foes. According to this, a player could get into invisibility, tell me that he hides until he gets a extremely high roll and then
Well, the DM gets to say when the player will roll, not the player.
If he has made a roll to Hide, then that roll will remain in place until something happens to change the situation - the player saying that he is Hiding on the following round will have no effect (and no die roll) because he is already Hiding.
After all, the PC doesn't know how well (or badly) the player rolled, so will assume that they are hiding quite well whilst sneaking under the effects of Invisibility.
Asking the player to roll with the first monster is a decent idea that I applied in the past. But I find it extremely broken. First, given how stealth works, you only need to stack a few buffs and you can almost guarantee a stealth check that can only be detected by extremely high perception foes. It also has the problem that if you ask the player for only one roll until he stops hiding and he fails, you will have to make an arbitrary decision of where he is catch.
Asking the player to roll with the first monster is a decent idea that I applied in the past. But I find it extremely broken. First, given how stealth works, you only need to stack a few buffs and you can almost guarantee a stealth check that can only be detected by extremely high perception foes. It also has the problem that if you ask the player for only one roll until he stops hiding and he fails, you will have to make an arbitrary decision of where he is catch.
Stacking buff greatly benefit a Stealth check wether it's done immediatly or when a creature can detect it.
Asking a single Stealth check is in the rules already and a hidden creature is catched when discovered by failing Stealth vs Perception
If you want to make the stealth mission more involved, add levels of failure, ways to re-engage stealth, ways to escape. You can ramp up the difficulty if it’s a pivotal point, but a do-or-die scenario is always going to rub the players the wrong way.
This is the key to me. Success or failure, a scene that is just a succession of the same check over and over is almost never that interesting. The player has no effect on what is happening only the dice do.
There should be things that interrupt "plan A" and force the player to improvise and/or use other skills and features. The inclusion of a guard dog suggested above, for example. There should be at least one, "did you hear that?" moment. For me, I'd want to focus the drama on "how will he get out of this predicament?" rather than just "will his stealth check be high enough this time?"
Also regarding stealth buffs, note that the most common - Pass Without Trace - requires the caster to be within 30 feet.
While a player character can theorically attempt to hide and un-hide repeatedly until he gets a good roll, this is a metagame problem in nature as it doesn't know how (un)successful it's Stealth is.
Because a Stealth check does nothing alone, when a player character says he attempt to hide, i don't have Stealth check made until a creature can potentional detect its presence. It avoid such metagame and also cut down unecessary rolls if no creature ever come accross.
This.
I personally tend to tip the players that their characters know they're not hiding well sometimes to prevent the tendency for this behavior in general. If, for example, they're trying to settle in and prep an ambush and have time on their side, I compare their results to the rest of the party's passive perceptions and anyone who rolled especially low can get tipped off that they need to hide elsewhere/better.
But if they're solo and trying to creep up on someone they gotta just go with the roll. They don't know that up ahead they're going to step on a twig at the worst possible moment. That's what the nat 1 decided. That's what is going to happen. How does rerolling help you and why does the player think they get to freely reroll failed checks?
It's my opinion that you're not actually hiding unless you're hiding from something. Ducking down behind a shrubbery isn't hiding if you're alone. You wouldn't roll anything.
It's my opinion that you're not actually hiding unless you're hiding from something. Ducking down behind a shrubbery isn't hiding if you're alone. You wouldn't roll anything.
Exactly! I don't allow a stealth check of any kind until the character is in danger of being seen by something that they are attempting to hide from. This isn't RAW, but it works a lot better. At the very least, the Stealth check should be rolled after an action has taken place, and not before. You can't check to see if you're quiet before you've moved.
Player: I attempt to move stealthily down the corridor. DM: OK, that's what you're trying. (Player looks in a room, checks some stuff, goes down a corridor, looks in another room, nothing there, goes into another corridor) DM: There's a guard at the end of the room. Roll a Stealth check to see how well you were doing.
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According the stealth rules, one player is in stealth until he can no longer be in stealth or until the passive perception of one of his foes. According to this, a player could get into invisibility, tell me that he hides until he gets a extremely high roll and then surpass all the foes that he wants because he is virtually indetectable unless he does something so painfully obvious that the guards start actively searching for him.
This doesn't make any sense in my opinion, regardless, to try to understand the practical implications, I would like if you could explain how would you solve the situation that will take place in my session tonight.
The environment is a cabin with only one door and several windows in each side, the house only has one open room that serves has a bedroom. The cabin has two guards in front of the door and it's surronded by a small wall wich is open from the front (in the same area as the door of the cabin). Each corner of the wall has an additionall guard. The objective of the player that is gonna try to enter is to go the bedroom (there is one guy sleeping on the bed), open a chest on the bedroom, and grab from it an important letter (key to the chest is in the bedroom).
The player will.
- Cast invisibility on himself and cross half the military camp that surronds the cabin.
- Surpass the wall either by walking over it's opening or by climbing it.
- Enter through a door (hopefully not, as the guards are just in front of it), through a window (either by breaking it, forcing it, or opening it using a spell) or through the chimney (by climbing the house and then dropping through it).
- Search inside the house for the letter.
- Open the chest, either by forcing it, using a spell, or finding the key under the bed and using it (maybe he could try to steal the whole chest instead but I don't think he will).
- Scaping in a similar fashion he entered.
I will know what foes can potentially detect the player, as I will calculate the audible distance before going in. But I just don't know, and the rules don't want to explain, when I have to ask for each check (I hope the answer is not: one before everything). For me is extremely important to get this right, as depending on the interpretation of the rules I may kill or not one important character for one of my players.
There’s no real hard-and-fast rule for how often you call for a stealth check. In the scenario you outlined, I could reasonably see lots of points where the check would be appropriate. It’s going to be your call as to when they roll them.
The big thing to keep in mind is the more rolls the player makes, the greater chance for failure. So if you want them to succeed, keep the number of rolls to a minimum. Of course, you also want them to earn it. And I imagine the player wants to earn it as well.
I’d go with one roll as they go through the camp, one as they enter. One as they search. Then one more as they exit, and one more going back out. Though that’s 5 rolls, which seems pretty dicey.
Maybe give them advantage on the rolls, because they’re invisible.
I guess the other question is security. In a world where people can turn invisible relatively easily, I’d think the owner of the cabin would take some kind of precautions. Ranging from giving a guard or two true sight, to just having a dog like a mastiff that gets advantage on perception checks that rely on sound or smell.
It might help you if you erase "in stealth" from your vocabulary and replace it with "hiding." It's not a mode you can toggle on and off like in a video game. It's an activity.
I'd say a good rule of thumb is, if the character ever has to stop hiding to do something else, then when they hide again they're making a new check.
That's the thing I hate about 5th stealth. I have to make arbitrary calls to decide if a character will die or not by just plane bad luck. That's why I want to standarize it.
Invisible already allows a player to roll stealth any round they want, so no need for advantage. They can be right beside a target and use stealth (if they can’t be seen) and try getting away.
And to the OP: It’s best not to design encounters that rely on one singular roll for success and fail. Imagine a bad guy that did infinite damage with each attack but had 1 HP and 0 AC - one initiative roll determines the entire outcome of this battle. That’s basically what you’re designing here if discovery of the stealthy character means their demise.
If you want to make the stealth mission more involved, add levels of failure, ways to re-engage stealth, ways to escape. You can ramp up the difficulty if it’s a pivotal point, but a do-or-die scenario is always going to rub the players the wrong way.
Great idea. I can call for a check everytime he needs to do other check like climbing, forcing a door or when he casts a spell.
Then don’t make it life or death. He gets caught, he gets captured. Surely they’ll want to know why someone was snooping around. Who does he work for? What was his mission?
That gives him a chance to escape from capture.
And where’s the rest of the party? If I was going to send one person in, I’d try to create a distraction on the opposite end of the camp. The added noise could help cover any sounds the sneaky one makes. ( and it gives the rest of the players something to do.) Maybe a friendly NPC makes the suggestion if the party hasn’t thought of it.
My suggestions in curly brackets.
You'd better get used to breaking from your plans in order to serve pacing and drama at your table. It's something you'll be doing a lot.
Things to note about Invisibility: it ends if you make an attack or cast a spell. The player will not be able to break a window or cast a spell to open it, among other things. They can, however, use a magic item (like a Rope of Climbing) that doesn't involve casting a spell.
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Well, the DM gets to say when the player will roll, not the player.
If he has made a roll to Hide, then that roll will remain in place until something happens to change the situation - the player saying that he is Hiding on the following round will have no effect (and no die roll) because he is already Hiding.
After all, the PC doesn't know how well (or badly) the player rolled, so will assume that they are hiding quite well whilst sneaking under the effects of Invisibility.
While a player character can theorically attempt to hide and un-hide repeatedly until he gets a good roll, this is a metagame problem in nature as it doesn't know how (un)successful it's Stealth is.
Because a Stealth check does nothing alone, when a player character says he attempt to hide, i don't have Stealth check made until a creature can potentional detect its presence. It avoid such metagame and also cut down unecessary rolls if no creature ever come accross.
Asking the player to roll with the first monster is a decent idea that I applied in the past. But I find it extremely broken. First, given how stealth works, you only need to stack a few buffs and you can almost guarantee a stealth check that can only be detected by extremely high perception foes. It also has the problem that if you ask the player for only one roll until he stops hiding and he fails, you will have to make an arbitrary decision of where he is catch.
Stacking buff greatly benefit a Stealth check wether it's done immediatly or when a creature can detect it.
Asking a single Stealth check is in the rules already and a hidden creature is catched when discovered by failing Stealth vs Perception
This is the key to me. Success or failure, a scene that is just a succession of the same check over and over is almost never that interesting. The player has no effect on what is happening only the dice do.
There should be things that interrupt "plan A" and force the player to improvise and/or use other skills and features. The inclusion of a guard dog suggested above, for example. There should be at least one, "did you hear that?" moment. For me, I'd want to focus the drama on "how will he get out of this predicament?" rather than just "will his stealth check be high enough this time?"
Also regarding stealth buffs, note that the most common - Pass Without Trace - requires the caster to be within 30 feet.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
This.
I personally tend to tip the players that their characters know they're not hiding well sometimes to prevent the tendency for this behavior in general. If, for example, they're trying to settle in and prep an ambush and have time on their side, I compare their results to the rest of the party's passive perceptions and anyone who rolled especially low can get tipped off that they need to hide elsewhere/better.
But if they're solo and trying to creep up on someone they gotta just go with the roll. They don't know that up ahead they're going to step on a twig at the worst possible moment. That's what the nat 1 decided. That's what is going to happen. How does rerolling help you and why does the player think they get to freely reroll failed checks?
I'm probably laughing.
A player cannot reroll continually until they get a good result. The GM determines if and when rolls are required.
Even RP'd how would that work?
"I hide behind the wall."
"OK, you're hiding behind the wall."
"I hide behind the wall."
"You already said that."
"I hide more behind the wall."
"??"
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It's my opinion that you're not actually hiding unless you're hiding from something. Ducking down behind a shrubbery isn't hiding if you're alone. You wouldn't roll anything.
Exactly! I don't allow a stealth check of any kind until the character is in danger of being seen by something that they are attempting to hide from. This isn't RAW, but it works a lot better. At the very least, the Stealth check should be rolled after an action has taken place, and not before. You can't check to see if you're quiet before you've moved.
Player: I attempt to move stealthily down the corridor.
DM: OK, that's what you're trying.
(Player looks in a room, checks some stuff, goes down a corridor, looks in another room, nothing there, goes into another corridor)
DM: There's a guard at the end of the room. Roll a Stealth check to see how well you were doing.