Oh no. The time interval of mid-fall is absolutely crucial for feather fall.
Why? Because the spell targets "falling" creatures. And the only time a creature is a "falling creature" is... well, mid-fall.
So the must be a mid-fall interval. And, because there is a mid-fall interval, we know the fall isn't instant.
Once again, you are ignoring the actual mechanical rules stated in the spell.
I'm not.
The spell has a reaction with a specific description that states when a 'creature experiences a fall'.
Correct.
Many have pointed out to you that specific beats general and this too is RAW.
I agree with it. You can point it out as often as you like. I've agreed with it every time.
You can continue to ignore rules that do not suit you, but doing so only cements your position in its absolute wrongness.
?
I'm not sure what your objections here have to do with my comment or anything I've said here. If you're just venting over a failure of communication we seem to be having I totally get it, I'm a little frustrated too.
In my mind this seems remarkably straightforward. If something happens in an instant there is only a before and an after, not a during. So "when they fall", assuming an instant fall, happens after the fall. Instantly, after the fall. Because that is the very immediate next possible moment in time.
I'll break this down in sequence. We compare an optional "Instant" fall vs a original "non-instant" fall. Each line will represent a single instant.
Instant Fall:
Enemy decides to push PC off edge of a short dropoff and uses an action to use his shove ability.
PC fails save.
PC is shoved.
PC falls a short distance, taking d6 damage and falling prone.
Triggers Feather Fall spellcast.
No available targets.
Non-Instant fall:
Enemy decides to push PC off edge of a short dropoff and uses an action to use his shove ability.
PC fails save.
PC is shoved.
PC falls.
Triggers Feather Fall spellcast.
Falling PC is targetted by spell effect and slows fall.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
It doesn't matter if a fall happens in an instant or is instantaneously or no rate of descent is written, the point is that rules that are Specific Beats General ones whenever there is, this wether a reaction is used or not. How much time exist between the moment you start and end falling is not important when there is an effect triggering off a fall.
How much time isn't important. Correct.
That there is time at all, however, is important.
If the fall is instant, there is no time. There is before it, and after it. But not a during-it.
But if it is a non-instant event, as it is assumed to be before Xanathars tries to muck things up, then of course there is a during-it stage.
You agree there is a during-it stage. So you agree there is an amount of time that transpires during the fall.
So... you should be in agreement here, that falls are not instant.
If there's no fall-altering effect, then you fall the entire distance unless it's a high altitude drop of 500+ feet, at which point you may decide to use or not use the optional rule for rate of fall at 500 feet per round.
This sequence isn't at all how people play the game. I don't think I've ever seen a DM decide whether or not he's going to apply an optional rule to his games in response to someone casting feather fall. That's about as backwards as it gets.
It doesn't matter if a fall takes time or not unless you fall from a high altitude and you can do something about it.
Wether the DM decides to use the optional rule for rate of fall when a fall occur or during session zero is not the point. DM makes ruling when required and i've seen DMs looking for rules after the core rules don't address it, to know how to handle it. My preference is during session 0 though.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
In my mind this seems remarkably straightforward. If something happens in an instant there is only a before and an after, not a during.
Instant simply doesn't mean what you think it means. Instant does not mean zero time, it means a very short period of time, and within the context of the game it merely means that it's too fast to get a turn before it completes.
In my mind this seems remarkably straightforward. If something happens in an instant there is only a before and an after, not a during.
Instant simply doesn't mean what you think it means. Instant does not mean zero time, it means a very short period of time, and within the context of the game it merely means that it's too fast to get a turn before it completes.
You linked to a definition that supports exactly how I'm using it. Something which happens immediately, a single point in time.
How you're using it is not only not supported by its normal definition, it isn't supported by the rules either. You seem to have invented that "too fast to get a turn before it completes" definition yourself, best I can tell.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Enemy decides to push PC off edge of a short dropoff and uses an action to use his shove ability.
PC fails save.
PC is shoved.
PC falls a short distance, taking d6 damage and falling prone.
Triggers Feather Fall spellcast.
No available targets.
No that's not how rules that are Specific Beats General ones. How much time there is, if any during a fall doesn't matter, Wen you fall you either;
Descend the entire distance until you land.
OR
Descend up to 500 feet. If you’re still falling on your next turn, you descend up to 500 feet at the end of that turn. This process continues until the fall ends.
OR
Slow the rate of descent to X feet per round until you land or the effect ends, at which point you fall.
You linked to a definition that supports exactly how I'm using it. Something which happens immediately, a single point in time.
Instant (n): an extremely short period of time. It doesn't matter if one definition agrees with you -- that just means that's not the definition they're using. Rather, you need to show that there are no definitions that are consistent with the way the game is using the term, and given that there are examples like 'instant coffee' (which is a lot faster than drip coffee but by no means takes zero time) you can't do that.
I agree with it. You can point it out as often as you like. I've agreed with it every time.
Then you also agree that the specifics of the spell include any fall that occurs near someone that has both access to the spell and an available reaction. You have no argument then and are just here to be contrary.
I'm not sure what your objections here have to do with my comment or anything I've said here. If you're just venting over a failure of communication we seem to be having I totally get it, I'm a little frustrated too.
I am unsure where you have gotten lost and I assure you that your frustrations are your own. I have been abundantly clear for the entirety of my time in this thread. To save myself the trouble of repeating myself, I encourage you to read my posts again. I fear that your frustration stems from you missing a beat or two in this discussion.
In my mind this seems remarkably straightforward. If something happens in an instant there is only a before and an after, not a during. So "when they fall", assuming an instant fall, happens after the fall. Instantly, after the fall. Because that is the very immediate next possible moment in time.
Unfortunately, instant applies to reactions as well and this reaction changes the triggering instant into a non-instant. The spell is very specific in this that it changes the nature of the fall. Play the game however you want. Houserules can be great sometimes, but you are alone in your interpretation of the rules for a reason.
Enemy decides to puch PC off edge of a short dropoff and uses an action to use his shove ability. PC fails save. PC is shoved. PC falls a short distance, taking d6 damage and falling prone. Triggers Feather Fall spellcast. No available targets.
Bolded is where you are wrong. The spell changes the nature of the fall. As has been pointed out numerous times, the specifics of the spell trump the general rule of the fall. While the general fall is instant (however you choose to interpret this word), that instant immediately triggers another instant, the reaction. That specific reaction has the ability to change the nature of the fall, it states that it occurs to prevent the fall from completing in a harmful way, and is therefore applied.
How much time there is, if any during a fall doesn't matter,
Again...
How much time doesn't matter. "If any" though... absolutely critical.
There must be "an amount" of time "during" the fall.
Otherwise there are never "falling" creatures. Only creatures "about to fall" followed instantly by creatures that "fell".
Wen you fall you either;
Descend the entire distance until you land.
OR
Descend up to 500 feet. If you’re still falling on your next turn, you descend up to 500 feet at the end of that turn. This process continues until the fall ends.
OR
Slow the rate of descent to X feet per round until you land or the effect ends, at which point you fall.
If you fall instantly the entire distance as described in XGtE, then the only way to "fall" is to fall the full distance.
Because it all happens in one instant. There is no transitioning into the fall. And falling a few ft at a time. It all happens at once. The whole distance. That is what the XGtE optional rule says.
It happens instantly.
I agree you shouldn't use this optional rule. And, based on what yall are saying it is clear you don't use this optional rule.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
If you blindlessly stick to general rule, you will hever have specific rules come change them. Effects affecting a fall are meant to do so wether you use XGE or not, because they were specifically created to do so. It's their purpose!
What i have never ever seen is a DM ruling that Feather Fall come into effect after you landed, this in all D&D editions i've played since the 80's
I'm not. Really. I fully understand and acknowledge how triggers work. I've not argued about that once. I don't know why you're on about this, nor why you're insisting I'm saying something I'm absolutely not saying. You can reread the comments and find at no time have I said the trigger is the issue. It isn't.
I agree with it. You can point it out as often as you like. I've agreed with it every time.
Then you also agree that the specifics of the spell include any fall that occurs near someone that has both access to the spell and an available reaction.
Absolutely. The trigger is not and has never been in debate here.
You have no argument then and are just here to be contrary.
We're not, and have not, been arguing about the trigger. At all.
I'm not sure what your objections here have to do with my comment or anything I've said here. If you're just venting over a failure of communication we seem to be having I totally get it, I'm a little frustrated too.
I am unsure where you have gotten lost and I assure you that your frustrations are your own. I have been abundantly clear for the entirety of my time in this thread. To save myself the trouble of repeating myself, I encourage you to read my posts again. I fear that your frustration stems from you missing a beat or two in this discussion.
You still think we're talking about the trigger though. We're not.
In my mind this seems remarkably straightforward. If something happens in an instant there is only a before and an after, not a during. So "when they fall", assuming an instant fall, happens after the fall. Instantly, after the fall. Because that is the very immediate next possible moment in time.
Unfortunately, instant applies to reactions as well and this reaction changes the triggering instant into a non-instant.
So here you are agreeing that the fall isn't instant. This, right here, is you agreeing with my entire premise.
The spell is very specific in this that it changes the nature of the fall.
Yes, it changes the non-instant fall to an even slower one. It slows it. Because it had one speed, before, which is slowed by the spell. Rates, or speeds, are a measure of distance over time. The fall must ne non-instant to have a speed, a rate, and must be non-instant have an interval of time in which creatures are falling.
Play the game however you want. Houserules can be great sometimes, but you are alone in your interpretation of the rules for a reason.
I use the RAW and am arguing against using the optional XGtE rule for instant falls. You seem to be confused on who has which position, here. You've even agreed with my central premise, as have others.
Enemy decides to puch PC off edge of a short dropoff and uses an action to use his shove ability. PC fails save. PC is shoved. PC falls a short distance, taking d6 damage and falling prone. Triggers Feather Fall spellcast. No available targets.
Bolded is where you are wrong. The spell changes the nature of the fall. As has been pointed out numerous times, the specifics of the spell trump the general rule of the fall. While the general fall is instant (however you choose to interpret this word), that instant immediately triggers another instant, the reaction. That specific reaction has the ability to change the nature of the fall, it states that it occurs to prevent the fall from completing in a harmful way, and is therefore applied.
That's how it works RAW of course. That's how it works in my games because I don't claim to be using "instant fall" optional rules.
But if you do claim to be using "instant fall" optional rules then what I outlined is the correct sequence of events. The fall is one discrete event, and the spell triggers in response to that event. So the creature falls xft, takes xd6 damage, and falls prone. This triggers the casting of feather fall. Unfortunately, there are no valid targets, because the spell targets falling creatures, not prone creatures.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
If you blindlessly stick to general rule, you will hever have specific rules come change them. Effects affecting a fall are meant to do so wether you use XGE or not, because they were specifically created to do so. It's their purpose!
What i have never ever seen is a DM ruling that Feather Fall come into effect after you landed, this in all D&D editions i've played since the 80's
Exactly! No one, in practice, even follows the optional falling rule. It is just badly written.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
They're fine, it's your reasoning being their application that is faulty. The important aspect you fail to understand is that a rate of descend that is slowed to 60 feet per round will not be an instant fall anymore if you're normally using an optional rule saying it normally is because something else specifically come change that rule.
They're fine, it's your reasoning being their application that is faulty. The important aspect you fail to understand is that a rate of descend that is slowed to 60 feet per round will not be an instant fall anymore if you're normally using an optional rule saying it normally is because something else specifically come change that rule.
The thing you're overlooking is if it has a "rate of fall" then it was non-instant to begin with.
This is why I know I'm correct, you guys keep agreeing with my central premise based on how you both discuss it and say you rule it. You don't treat the fall as an instant event.
Ie. You're not using the optional rules as presented in XGtE.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
How much time doesn't matter. "If any" though... absolutely critical.
There must be "an amount" of time "during" the fall.
Otherwise there are never "falling" creatures. Only creatures "about to fall" followed instantly by creatures that "fell".
So that is precisely the concept that you keep getting wrong over and over again. No time is required.
I'll put the rule here again since it's been a while:
Reactions
Certain special abilities, spells, and situations allow you to take a special action called a reaction. A reaction is an instant response to a trigger
Again, no time is required. It's an instant response to a trigger. No time is required. And also, no time is required.
In order for any of this to become relevant, there must be a fall. Without a fall there is no falling creature, there is no need to resolve the effects of a fall and there is no opportunity to react to the fall.
However, an event takes place -- a creature falls and becomes a falling creature. This event is a trigger. Rules for falling in the core books and in the optional books describe the effects of this fall and when and how to resolve them. None of these apply without a fall. The fall triggers the application of these rules. The fall is also the trigger that is defined by the spell which can be cast as a Reaction. The rules for Reactions are above. No time is required. There is a triggering event and there is a reaction to that event. The effects also triggered by that event might now be altered.
Reactions are an extremely core part of gameplay. The game cannot be played correctly without handling reactions correctly.
That's how it works RAW of course. That's how it works in my games because I don't claim to be using "instant fall" optional rules.
But if you do claim to be using "instant fall" optional rules then what I outlined is the correct sequence of events. The fall is one discrete event, and the spell triggers in response to that event. So the creature falls xft, takes xd6 damage, and falls prone. This triggers the casting of feather fall. Unfortunately, there are no valid targets, because the spell targets falling creatures, not prone creatures.
What you outlined is not the correct sequence of events. When you state "PC falls a short distance", that is the trigger which permits another trigger. You are simply ignoring that the specific nature of the spell overrules the general rule of the fall. You are ignoring the fact that reactions are also instant and operate exactly as they say they do, which in this specific case resolves before the PC can land and experience harm.
I agree entirely. And have this entire time. That is exactly what happens when you use the RAW, and not the optional XGtE rules on instant falls.
But, when you decide to modify the normal rules with the XGtE optional rules on instant falls, it has some side effects if you actually apply those rules. One of them is that falls become a discrete event, only having a before and an after. Your feather fall can trigger immediately, heck, you can even say the effect should be applied at either before the fall or after the fall. Unfortunately, in both cases, there isn't a valid target. Before the fall? No falling creatures. After the fall? No falling creatures.
So either you can stick to the normal RAW like I suggested, or you can selectively and subjectively apply the XGtE rules. But, be careful with that because players tend to not love having the rules change on them all the time on DM whimsy alone.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
How much time doesn't matter. "If any" though... absolutely critical.
There must be "an amount" of time "during" the fall.
Otherwise there are never "falling" creatures. Only creatures "about to fall" followed instantly by creatures that "fell".
So that is precisely the concept that you keep getting wrong over and over again. No time is required.
Sort of.
Time is required in the sense that there is a sequence of events. And, some of the terms we're using are also time-based terms. The effects of the spell otself are time based.
I'm not "getting it wrong" so much as I am "actually applying what it says literally."
I'll put the rule here again since it's been a while:
Reactions
Certain special abilities, spells, and situations allow you to take a special action called a reaction. A reaction is an instant response to a trigger
Again, no time is required. It's an instant response to a trigger. No time is required. And also, no time is required.
Again, not quite right. You have to apply the effect of the trigger at some moment in time. Right? There is a sequence of events here. Time is required.
But you're sorta right if you mean that the spell triggers even with an instant fall. It absolutely does. Again, I've never once argued that it doesn't trigger.
We ALL agree it triggers.
In order for any of this to become relevant, there must be a fall. Without a fall there is no falling creature, there is no need to resolve the effects of a fall and there is no opportunity to react to the fall.
Yep. Funnily enough though... if the fall is instant, there still aren't "falling creatures". That is never a state that applies to anyone. They just are a creature. Then they fall xft, take xd6 damage, become prone.... all in an instant. Now they're a prone creature that has fallen.
Only if you have non-instant falls are there ever creature "in the process" of "falling" as a discrete state.
However, an event takes place -- a creature falls and becomes a falling creature. This event is a trigger.
Yes this describes non-instant falls.
But an instant fall event would be:
a creature falls xft, takes xd6 damage, and becomes a prone creature. This event is a trigger.
Because the fall happens all at once. It is instant.
And, unfortunately, since the point the spell triggers is right after the fall, there are no valid targets. (Well, unless the fall exceeds 500ft!)
Rules for falling in the core books and in the optional books describe the effects of this fall and when and how to resolve them. None of these apply without a fall. The fall triggers the application of these rules.
Yes, but the core rules and the optional rule call for a different resolution of falls.
In the core rules the fall does trigger the resolution of the fall.
But the entire point of the optional rule is that the fall is itself an instant event that happens all at once. It isn't that a creature falls and then plummets over time... no. It is that the entire fall happens in one discrete instant. No longer are we going through a "start" fall, "falling", end "fall" sequence, instead: instant fall. All at once.
It is an optional rule, I really feel I need to stess that. Using optional rules can often add complications to your game you weren't expecting. This is just one of them.
The fall is also the trigger that is defined by the spell which can be cast as a Reaction. The rules for Reactions are above. No time is required. There is a triggering event and there is a reaction to that event. The effects also triggered by that event might now be altered.
Yeah I fully agree. If you believe falls have many discrete intervals in which to respond to, the trigger for your fall can be any part of the fall. Unfortunately, if you are using the instant fall option, you can only respond to the entirety of the fall, since it is one instant event.
Reactions are an extremely core part of gameplay. The game cannot be played correctly without handling reactions correctly.
Totally agree.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
They're fine, it's your reasoning being their application that is faulty. The important aspect you fail to understand is that a rate of descend that is slowed to 60 feet per round will not be an instant fall anymore if you're normally using an optional rule saying it normally is because something else specifically come change that rule.
The thing you're overlooking is if it has a "rate of fall" then it was non-instant to begin with.
This is why I know I'm correct, you guys keep agreeing with my central premise based on how you both discuss it and say you rule it. You don't treat the fall as an instant event.
I'm not overlooking anything, if an effect give you a specific rate of descend when falling, then you're descending at that rate because it's specifically changing any general rule for how you fall.
No one correct would say feather fall happen before or after a fall.
They're fine, it's your reasoning being their application that is faulty. The important aspect you fail to understand is that a rate of descend that is slowed to 60 feet per round will not be an instant fall anymore if you're normally using an optional rule saying it normally is because something else specifically come change that rule.
The thing you're overlooking is if it has a "rate of fall" then it was non-instant to begin with.
This is why I know I'm correct, you guys keep agreeing with my central premise based on how you both discuss it and say you rule it. You don't treat the fall as an instant event.
I'm not overlooking anything, if an effect give you a specific rate of descend when falling, then you're descending at that rate because it's specifically changing any general rule for how you fall.
No one correct would say feather fall happen before or after a fall.
Great! We agree. There is a rate of descent.
Ie. Fall are non-instant. Because they have a rate measured in distance over time. Thus to fall a distance, time must pass.
So we're not using XGtE instant falls.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
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Why do you keep ignoring the critical concept of how Reactions work? No time is required at all. It's an instant response to a trigger.
I'm not.
Correct.
I agree with it. You can point it out as often as you like. I've agreed with it every time.
?
I'm not sure what your objections here have to do with my comment or anything I've said here. If you're just venting over a failure of communication we seem to be having I totally get it, I'm a little frustrated too.
In my mind this seems remarkably straightforward. If something happens in an instant there is only a before and an after, not a during. So "when they fall", assuming an instant fall, happens after the fall. Instantly, after the fall. Because that is the very immediate next possible moment in time.
I'll break this down in sequence. We compare an optional "Instant" fall vs a original "non-instant" fall. Each line will represent a single instant.
Instant Fall:
Enemy decides to push PC off edge of a short dropoff and uses an action to use his shove ability.
PC fails save.
PC is shoved.
PC falls a short distance, taking d6 damage and falling prone.
Triggers Feather Fall spellcast.
No available targets.
Non-Instant fall:
Enemy decides to push PC off edge of a short dropoff and uses an action to use his shove ability.
PC fails save.
PC is shoved.
PC falls.
Triggers Feather Fall spellcast.
Falling PC is targetted by spell effect and slows fall.
Lands safely.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
It doesn't matter if a fall takes time or not unless you fall from a high altitude and you can do something about it.
Wether the DM decides to use the optional rule for rate of fall when a fall occur or during session zero is not the point. DM makes ruling when required and i've seen DMs looking for rules after the core rules don't address it, to know how to handle it. My preference is during session 0 though.
I'm not. It happens in response to the trigger.
The trigger is this:
[The creature falls xft, takes xd6 damage and falls prone.]
Because if a fall is "instant" that is all ONE discrete game event called a "fall".
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Instant simply doesn't mean what you think it means. Instant does not mean zero time, it means a very short period of time, and within the context of the game it merely means that it's too fast to get a turn before it completes.
You linked to a definition that supports exactly how I'm using it. Something which happens immediately, a single point in time.
How you're using it is not only not supported by its normal definition, it isn't supported by the rules either. You seem to have invented that "too fast to get a turn before it completes" definition yourself, best I can tell.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
No that's not how rules that are Specific Beats General ones. How much time there is, if any during a fall doesn't matter, Wen you fall you either;
Descend the entire distance until you land.
OR
Descend up to 500 feet. If you’re still falling on your next turn, you descend up to 500 feet at the end of that turn. This process continues until the fall ends.
OR
Slow the rate of descent to X feet per round until you land or the effect ends, at which point you fall.
Instant (n): an extremely short period of time. It doesn't matter if one definition agrees with you -- that just means that's not the definition they're using. Rather, you need to show that there are no definitions that are consistent with the way the game is using the term, and given that there are examples like 'instant coffee' (which is a lot faster than drip coffee but by no means takes zero time) you can't do that.
You are.
Then you also agree that the specifics of the spell include any fall that occurs near someone that has both access to the spell and an available reaction. You have no argument then and are just here to be contrary.
I am unsure where you have gotten lost and I assure you that your frustrations are your own. I have been abundantly clear for the entirety of my time in this thread. To save myself the trouble of repeating myself, I encourage you to read my posts again. I fear that your frustration stems from you missing a beat or two in this discussion.
Unfortunately, instant applies to reactions as well and this reaction changes the triggering instant into a non-instant. The spell is very specific in this that it changes the nature of the fall. Play the game however you want. Houserules can be great sometimes, but you are alone in your interpretation of the rules for a reason.
Bolded is where you are wrong. The spell changes the nature of the fall. As has been pointed out numerous times, the specifics of the spell trump the general rule of the fall. While the general fall is instant (however you choose to interpret this word), that instant immediately triggers another instant, the reaction. That specific reaction has the ability to change the nature of the fall, it states that it occurs to prevent the fall from completing in a harmful way, and is therefore applied.
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Again...
How much time doesn't matter. "If any" though... absolutely critical.
There must be "an amount" of time "during" the fall.
Otherwise there are never "falling" creatures. Only creatures "about to fall" followed instantly by creatures that "fell".
If you fall instantly the entire distance as described in XGtE, then the only way to "fall" is to fall the full distance.
Because it all happens in one instant. There is no transitioning into the fall. And falling a few ft at a time. It all happens at once. The whole distance. That is what the XGtE optional rule says.
It happens instantly.
I agree you shouldn't use this optional rule. And, based on what yall are saying it is clear you don't use this optional rule.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
If you blindlessly stick to general rule, you will hever have specific rules come change them. Effects affecting a fall are meant to do so wether you use XGE or not, because they were specifically created to do so. It's their purpose!
What i have never ever seen is a DM ruling that Feather Fall come into effect after you landed, this in all D&D editions i've played since the 80's
I'm not. Really. I fully understand and acknowledge how triggers work. I've not argued about that once. I don't know why you're on about this, nor why you're insisting I'm saying something I'm absolutely not saying. You can reread the comments and find at no time have I said the trigger is the issue. It isn't.
Absolutely. The trigger is not and has never been in debate here.
We're not, and have not, been arguing about the trigger. At all.
You still think we're talking about the trigger though. We're not.
So here you are agreeing that the fall isn't instant. This, right here, is you agreeing with my entire premise.
Yes, it changes the non-instant fall to an even slower one. It slows it. Because it had one speed, before, which is slowed by the spell. Rates, or speeds, are a measure of distance over time. The fall must ne non-instant to have a speed, a rate, and must be non-instant have an interval of time in which creatures are falling.
I use the RAW and am arguing against using the optional XGtE rule for instant falls. You seem to be confused on who has which position, here. You've even agreed with my central premise, as have others.
That's how it works RAW of course. That's how it works in my games because I don't claim to be using "instant fall" optional rules.
But if you do claim to be using "instant fall" optional rules then what I outlined is the correct sequence of events. The fall is one discrete event, and the spell triggers in response to that event. So the creature falls xft, takes xd6 damage, and falls prone. This triggers the casting of feather fall. Unfortunately, there are no valid targets, because the spell targets falling creatures, not prone creatures.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Exactly! No one, in practice, even follows the optional falling rule. It is just badly written.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
They're fine, it's your reasoning being their application that is faulty. The important aspect you fail to understand is that a rate of descend that is slowed to 60 feet per round will not be an instant fall anymore if you're normally using an optional rule saying it normally is because something else specifically come change that rule.
The thing you're overlooking is if it has a "rate of fall" then it was non-instant to begin with.
This is why I know I'm correct, you guys keep agreeing with my central premise based on how you both discuss it and say you rule it. You don't treat the fall as an instant event.
Ie. You're not using the optional rules as presented in XGtE.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
So that is precisely the concept that you keep getting wrong over and over again. No time is required.
I'll put the rule here again since it's been a while:
Again, no time is required. It's an instant response to a trigger. No time is required. And also, no time is required.
In order for any of this to become relevant, there must be a fall. Without a fall there is no falling creature, there is no need to resolve the effects of a fall and there is no opportunity to react to the fall.
However, an event takes place -- a creature falls and becomes a falling creature. This event is a trigger. Rules for falling in the core books and in the optional books describe the effects of this fall and when and how to resolve them. None of these apply without a fall. The fall triggers the application of these rules. The fall is also the trigger that is defined by the spell which can be cast as a Reaction. The rules for Reactions are above. No time is required. There is a triggering event and there is a reaction to that event. The effects also triggered by that event might now be altered.
Reactions are an extremely core part of gameplay. The game cannot be played correctly without handling reactions correctly.
I agree entirely. And have this entire time. That is exactly what happens when you use the RAW, and not the optional XGtE rules on instant falls.
But, when you decide to modify the normal rules with the XGtE optional rules on instant falls, it has some side effects if you actually apply those rules. One of them is that falls become a discrete event, only having a before and an after. Your feather fall can trigger immediately, heck, you can even say the effect should be applied at either before the fall or after the fall. Unfortunately, in both cases, there isn't a valid target. Before the fall? No falling creatures. After the fall? No falling creatures.
So either you can stick to the normal RAW like I suggested, or you can selectively and subjectively apply the XGtE rules. But, be careful with that because players tend to not love having the rules change on them all the time on DM whimsy alone.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Sort of.
Time is required in the sense that there is a sequence of events. And, some of the terms we're using are also time-based terms. The effects of the spell otself are time based.
I'm not "getting it wrong" so much as I am "actually applying what it says literally."
Again, not quite right. You have to apply the effect of the trigger at some moment in time. Right? There is a sequence of events here. Time is required.
But you're sorta right if you mean that the spell triggers even with an instant fall. It absolutely does. Again, I've never once argued that it doesn't trigger.
We ALL agree it triggers.
Yep. Funnily enough though... if the fall is instant, there still aren't "falling creatures". That is never a state that applies to anyone. They just are a creature. Then they fall xft, take xd6 damage, become prone.... all in an instant. Now they're a prone creature that has fallen.
Only if you have non-instant falls are there ever creature "in the process" of "falling" as a discrete state.
Yes this describes non-instant falls.
But an instant fall event would be:
a creature falls xft, takes xd6 damage, and becomes a prone creature. This event is a trigger.
Because the fall happens all at once. It is instant.
And, unfortunately, since the point the spell triggers is right after the fall, there are no valid targets. (Well, unless the fall exceeds 500ft!)
Yes, but the core rules and the optional rule call for a different resolution of falls.
In the core rules the fall does trigger the resolution of the fall.
But the entire point of the optional rule is that the fall is itself an instant event that happens all at once. It isn't that a creature falls and then plummets over time... no. It is that the entire fall happens in one discrete instant. No longer are we going through a "start" fall, "falling", end "fall" sequence, instead: instant fall. All at once.
It is an optional rule, I really feel I need to stess that. Using optional rules can often add complications to your game you weren't expecting. This is just one of them.
Yeah I fully agree. If you believe falls have many discrete intervals in which to respond to, the trigger for your fall can be any part of the fall. Unfortunately, if you are using the instant fall option, you can only respond to the entirety of the fall, since it is one instant event.
Totally agree.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I'm not overlooking anything, if an effect give you a specific rate of descend when falling, then you're descending at that rate because it's specifically changing any general rule for how you fall.
No one correct would say feather fall happen before or after a fall.
Great! We agree. There is a rate of descent.
Ie. Fall are non-instant. Because they have a rate measured in distance over time. Thus to fall a distance, time must pass.
So we're not using XGtE instant falls.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.