You're going to need to elaborate. Basic understanding of what "instantaneous" means would beg to differ. Are you referring to a specific rule text here?
Otherwise you're arguing that falls are instantaneous, but also not so instantaneous as to actually be instantaneous.
The only requirement for a reaction is that the trigger conditions are met. There is no requirement that the thing being reacted to take time. Falls are instantaneous and can still be interrupted.
You're going to need to elaborate. Basic understanding of what "instantaneous" means would beg to differ. Are you referring to a specific rule text here?
Otherwise you're arguing that falls are instantaneous, but also not so instantaneous as to actually be instantaneous.
The only requirement for a reaction is that the trigger conditions are met. There is no requirement that the thing being reacted to take time. Falls are instantaneous and can still be interrupted.
Okay, so what says the fall is interrupted, precisely? You've gestured at the notion that it "could" be interrupted, somehow. Say we accept that incongruous notion.
What is saying to interrupt it?
feather fall doesn't. It says you take your reaction when they fall. Well, as you've claimed, that fall is instantaneous, so they just fall the full distance and then your spell goes off.
So again, what... specifically, allows the spell to interrupt the instantaneous fall?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
feather fall doesn't. It says you take your reaction when they fall. Well, as you've claimed, that fall is instantaneous, so they just fall the full distance and then your spell goes off.
So again, what... specifically, allows the spell to interrupt the instantaneous fall?
Whether reaction timing is an interrupt is... kind of specifically recognized as poorly explained. However, a target falls when they start falling, not when they hit the ground.
So you don't believe that falls are instantaneous. The fall happens, there is time in which falling happens, and then the fall ends. Ie, you're not using the ruling we're talking about.
No i believe in Specific Beats General Normally when falling you immediately drops the entire distance or instantly descend up to 500 feet unless something specific comes changes that, slowing your rate of descent to 60 feet per round instead.
feather fall doesn't. It says you take your reaction when they fall. Well, as you've claimed, that fall is instantaneous, so they just fall the full distance and then your spell goes off.
So again, what... specifically, allows the spell to interrupt the instantaneous fall?
Whether reaction timing is an interrupt is... kind of specifically recognized as poorly explained. However, a target falls when they start falling, not when they hit the ground.
But your claim was that they fall instantaneously. So, that is to say, they don't "start" falling, they simply fall.
My claim is that they "start" falling. Because then that is followed naturally by them "actually" falling. Followed, as you might guess, by has fell. A bit of a beginning-middle-end type situation.
Your claim, that is it "instantaneous", suggests it all happens in one instant. While mine suggests 3.
So if you're suggesting, now, that feather fall triggers when they "start falling" I agree. And that means we agree that falling isn't really instantaneous. That feather fall happens after the beginning, and before the ending, of the fall. Because the fall has a duration, a transient state of being in the infinitive. Ie, isn't instantaneous.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
So you don't believe that falls are instantaneous. The fall happens, there is time in which falling happens, and then the fall ends. Ie, you're not using the ruling we're talking about.
No i believe in Specific Beats General Normally when falling you immediately drops the entire distance or instantly descend up to 500 feet unless something specific comes changes that, slowing your rate of descent to 60 feet per round instead.
How can you "slow the rate" of something that doesn't have a rate? If a fall is instantaneous there isn't a rate. It has no speed. There is a before the fall, and an after the fall, with no intervening period of time.
You keep treating it like it should be treating while errantly calling how you treat it "instantly". But you don't treat it as "instantly" otherwise you'd be arguing there is a "before", and an "after", but never a "during".
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
But your claim was that they fall instantaneously. So, that is to say, they don't "start" falling, they simply fall.
Falling takes zero time that is still interruptible.
The intent of the rule is pretty clearly that the amount of time that a fall takes is less than the granularity of the game system, and thus you cannot use an action to interrupt a fall -- you need a reaction. However, the term 'instantaneously' is not defined in the game system.
Spell do what they say they do. When you fall you cast feather fall as a reaction and your rate of descent slows to 60 feet per round until it ends. This whatever version of the core or optional rules you use, the spell is meant to affect your fall.
But your claim was that they fall instantaneously. So, that is to say, they don't "start" falling, they simply fall.
Falling takes zero time that is still interruptible.
You should consider what you're saying here. It is worth a 2nd pass.
You're claiming to be able to divide zero into a non-zero result.
The intent of the rule is pretty clearly that the amount of time that a fall takes is less than the granularity of the game system, and thus you cannot use an action to interrupt a fall -- you need a reaction. However, the term 'instantaneously' is not defined in the game system.
No. To just, all of this.
1st, it isn't pretty clear that the intent is that a fall is too granular for the game system.
2nd, if a fall is too granular for the game system then it is definitely too granular for reactions, which are part of the game system.
3rd, who is talking about actions anyway.
4th, words have meaning and if you're just here to redefine words to mean things they don't, that isn't going to lead to a productive rules discussion. We know that the rules use the term "instantaneous" and we know what it means when they do.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
1st, it isn't pretty clear that the intent is that a fall is too granular for the game system.
2nd, if a fall is too granular for the game system then it is definitely too granular for reactions, which are part of the game system.
3rd, who is talking about actions anyway.
4th, words have meaning and if you're just here to redefine words to mean things they don't, that isn't going to lead to a productive rules discussion. We know that the rules use the term "instantaneous" and we know what it means when they do.
1, 2, 3: The time granularity of the game system is one round (6 seconds). If something takes less time than that, you do not get a turn between the event starting and the event ending, and thus you cannot take an action. You can take a reaction because you don't need a turn to take a reaction.
4: Instantaneous has no definition within the rules. It has a common-language meaning, but if you're getting into common language it becomes obvious that falling doesn't actually take zero time so whatever they mean by instantaneous is not taking zero time.
This is equivalent to an action taking less than one tic in a video game (which is rarely a factor for modern games, but older online games often had tic rates of 1+ seconds), which is commonly called instantaneous.
When the Devs was asked about it, here's what they said ;
(@Wulfgar15 I'm sure someone has asked this but I couldn't find a definitive solution. Can you cast feather fall in time with 1 reaction, considering the "Xanathar's guide" rules on falling, where you fall 500ft immediately.
@JeremyECrawford Feather fall, like many things in D&D, creates an exception: it lets you cast a spell as a reaction to slow someone's fall. If a spell or other exceptional thing in the game says it does something, that's what it does. Also, any rule in "Xanathar's Guide" is optional.
1st, it isn't pretty clear that the intent is that a fall is too granular for the game system.
2nd, if a fall is too granular for the game system then it is definitely too granular for reactions, which are part of the game system.
3rd, who is talking about actions anyway.
4th, words have meaning and if you're just here to redefine words to mean things they don't, that isn't going to lead to a productive rules discussion. We know that the rules use the term "instantaneous" and we know what it means when they do.
1, 2, 3: The time granularity of the game system is one round (6 seconds). If something takes less time than that, you do not get a turn between the event starting and the event ending, and thus you cannot take an action. You can take a reaction because you don't need a turn to take a reaction.
I'm not sure where you're getting these ideas from, but it isn't 5e. None of what you said here is true.
The granularity is most definitely not 6 seconds. And losts of things are know to take less time.
4: Instantaneous has no definition within the rules. It has a common-language meaning, but if you're getting into common language it becomes obvious that falling doesn't actually take zero time so whatever they mean by instantaneous is not taking zero time.
This is equivalent to an action taking less than one tic in a video game (which is rarely a factor for modern games, but older online games often had tic rates of 1+ seconds), which is commonly called instantaneous.
It has an established meaning, sorry.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
done, occurring, or acting without any perceptible duration of time
done without any delay being purposely introduced
occurring or present at a particular instant
None of those actually mean 'zero time'. The relevant usage is '1' and 'perceptible' often really means 'notable', most of their examples are things that are merely "fast enough that people don't get annoyed with waiting".
First of all, we should really stop using the word "instantaneously" here. This word is never used anywhere in the rules that relate to falling. In the optional rules the words "immediately" and "instantly" are used.
Pantagruel666 is 100% correct in this discussion. You keep asking for a quote of the rule that supports his argument -- I've already done so on a previous post but I'll just repeat it here:
Certain special abilities, spells, and situations allow you to take a special action called a reaction. A reaction is an instant response to a trigger of some kind
No time is required for a reaction. It's an instant response to a trigger.
First of all, we should really stop using the word "instantaneously" here. This word is never used anywhere in the rules that relate to falling. In the optional rules the words "immediately" and "instantly" are used.
Pantagruel666 is 100% correct in this discussion. You keep asking for a quote of the rule that supports his argument -- I've already done so on a previous post but I'll just repeat it here:
Certain special abilities, spells, and situations allow you to take a special action called a reaction. A reaction is an instant response to a trigger of some kind
No time is required for a reaction. It's an instant response to a trigger.
The instant response happens after the instant fall. Correct.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
done, occurring, or acting without any perceptible duration of time
done without any delay being purposely introduced
occurring or present at a particular instant
None of those actually mean 'zero time'. The relevant usage is '1' and 'perceptible' often really means 'notable', most of their examples are things that are merely "fast enough that people don't get annoyed with waiting".
So you're saying the fall is completed before anyone would be able to perceive that it happens? Interesting take. Certainly rules out casting feather fall, since they'd complete the fall before you could even perceive that it happened, by this new ruling of yours.
Feels like a great homebrew ruling you can incorporate for your games! But do remember to warn your players when you create new rules like this.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Even if falling is instant as in no time has passed, this does not matter as reactions are also instant and are retroactively applied to the trigger. Reactions have a higher priority in the order of operations where both things are instant. The trigger occurs before the reaction, but the reaction is applied before the trigger. Just like an opportunity attack occurs once a creature has moved out of reach. The move outside of range (the trigger) must first happen, and the opportunity attack (the reaction) happens after the creature has left range, but the reaction is applied to the creature before it has escaped range. This is why a creature's speed is 0ft instead of 5ft if the reaction comes from one that has the sentinel feat. Shield is another example. The spell specifically describes being hit as the trigger, and while the casting happens after in response to being hit, the effect is applied before, making it possible to turn that hit into a miss.
There are an awful lot of mental gymnastics happening just to avoid admitting that one is wrong.
Even if falling is instant as in no time has passed, this does not matter as reactions are also instant and are retroactively applied to the trigger. Reactions have a higher priority in the order of operations where both things are instant. The trigger occurs before the reaction, but the reaction is applied before the trigger.
We covered this earlier. If you try to apply the effect of feather fall before the trigger, then it fails because there are no valid targets.
Why? Because before the creatures fall, there are no "falling creatures". Which, is what the spell targets.
Just like an opportunity attack occurs once a creature has moved out of reach. The move outside of range (the trigger) must first happen, and the opportunity attack (the reaction) happens after the creature has left range, but the reaction is applied to the creature before it has escaped range. This is why a creature's speed is 0ft instead of 5ft if the reaction comes from one that has the sentinel feat. Shield is another example. The spell specifically describes being hit as the trigger, and while the casting happens after in response to being hit, the effect is applied before, making it possible to turn that hit into a miss.
When a reaction happens before its trigger, it will say so. The default assumption for reactions is actually that they happen after the trigger. This, too was covered already. And the relevant rules were already quoted.
There are an awful lot of mental gymnastics happening just to avoid admitting that one is wrong.
I'm sure you'd agree that dndbeyond is a friendly and inclusive space, where we encourage people to share their thoughts and opinions on topics related to d&d. As this is a conversation that all are welcome to participate in, there is no need for anyone, at any time, to feel like they are in the wrong. Your voice matters, as does everyone else's, and they are welcome to express themselves.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
The only requirement for a reaction is that the trigger conditions are met. There is no requirement that the thing being reacted to take time. Falls are instantaneous and can still be interrupted.
Okay, so what says the fall is interrupted, precisely? You've gestured at the notion that it "could" be interrupted, somehow. Say we accept that incongruous notion.
What is saying to interrupt it?
feather fall doesn't. It says you take your reaction when they fall. Well, as you've claimed, that fall is instantaneous, so they just fall the full distance and then your spell goes off.
So again, what... specifically, allows the spell to interrupt the instantaneous fall?
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Whether reaction timing is an interrupt is... kind of specifically recognized as poorly explained. However, a target falls when they start falling, not when they hit the ground.
No i believe in Specific Beats General Normally when falling you immediately drops the entire distance or instantly descend up to 500 feet unless something specific comes changes that, slowing your rate of descent to 60 feet per round instead.
But your claim was that they fall instantaneously. So, that is to say, they don't "start" falling, they simply fall.
My claim is that they "start" falling. Because then that is followed naturally by them "actually" falling. Followed, as you might guess, by has fell. A bit of a beginning-middle-end type situation.
Your claim, that is it "instantaneous", suggests it all happens in one instant. While mine suggests 3.
So if you're suggesting, now, that feather fall triggers when they "start falling" I agree. And that means we agree that falling isn't really instantaneous. That feather fall happens after the beginning, and before the ending, of the fall. Because the fall has a duration, a transient state of being in the infinitive. Ie, isn't instantaneous.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
How can you "slow the rate" of something that doesn't have a rate? If a fall is instantaneous there isn't a rate. It has no speed. There is a before the fall, and an after the fall, with no intervening period of time.
You keep treating it like it should be treating while errantly calling how you treat it "instantly". But you don't treat it as "instantly" otherwise you'd be arguing there is a "before", and an "after", but never a "during".
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Falling takes zero time that is still interruptible.
The intent of the rule is pretty clearly that the amount of time that a fall takes is less than the granularity of the game system, and thus you cannot use an action to interrupt a fall -- you need a reaction. However, the term 'instantaneously' is not defined in the game system.
Spell do what they say they do. When you fall you cast feather fall as a reaction and your rate of descent slows to 60 feet per round until it ends. This whatever version of the core or optional rules you use, the spell is meant to affect your fall.
You should consider what you're saying here. It is worth a 2nd pass.
You're claiming to be able to divide zero into a non-zero result.
No. To just, all of this.
1st, it isn't pretty clear that the intent is that a fall is too granular for the game system.
2nd, if a fall is too granular for the game system then it is definitely too granular for reactions, which are part of the game system.
3rd, who is talking about actions anyway.
4th, words have meaning and if you're just here to redefine words to mean things they don't, that isn't going to lead to a productive rules discussion. We know that the rules use the term "instantaneous" and we know what it means when they do.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Exactly. The D&D rules do not care whether something takes zero time, it's still interruptible.
1, 2, 3: The time granularity of the game system is one round (6 seconds). If something takes less time than that, you do not get a turn between the event starting and the event ending, and thus you cannot take an action. You can take a reaction because you don't need a turn to take a reaction.
4: Instantaneous has no definition within the rules. It has a common-language meaning, but if you're getting into common language it becomes obvious that falling doesn't actually take zero time so whatever they mean by instantaneous is not taking zero time.
This is equivalent to an action taking less than one tic in a video game (which is rarely a factor for modern games, but older online games often had tic rates of 1+ seconds), which is commonly called instantaneous.
When the Devs was asked about it, here's what they said ;
No. It isn't. And you'll be unable to provide a single example of it happening anywhere. It is a conceptual impossibility.
You cannot split something that has no interval into two smaller intervals.
I'm not sure where you're getting these ideas from, but it isn't 5e. None of what you said here is true.
The granularity is most definitely not 6 seconds. And losts of things are know to take less time.
It has an established meaning, sorry.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
instantaneous:
None of those actually mean 'zero time'. The relevant usage is '1' and 'perceptible' often really means 'notable', most of their examples are things that are merely "fast enough that people don't get annoyed with waiting".
First of all, we should really stop using the word "instantaneously" here. This word is never used anywhere in the rules that relate to falling. In the optional rules the words "immediately" and "instantly" are used.
Pantagruel666 is 100% correct in this discussion. You keep asking for a quote of the rule that supports his argument -- I've already done so on a previous post but I'll just repeat it here:
No time is required for a reaction. It's an instant response to a trigger.
That's rules lawyers for you.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
The instant response happens after the instant fall. Correct.
You would use feather fall after the fall.
If you subscribe to the instant fall optional rule, anyway.
Thankfully it is an optional rule and should be treated as such, right.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
So you're saying the fall is completed before anyone would be able to perceive that it happens? Interesting take. Certainly rules out casting feather fall, since they'd complete the fall before you could even perceive that it happened, by this new ruling of yours.
Feels like a great homebrew ruling you can incorporate for your games! But do remember to warn your players when you create new rules like this.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Nope, I'm saying that 'instant' does not actually mean 'zero time', it just means 'fast'.
Even if falling is instant as in no time has passed, this does not matter as reactions are also instant and are retroactively applied to the trigger. Reactions have a higher priority in the order of operations where both things are instant. The trigger occurs before the reaction, but the reaction is applied before the trigger. Just like an opportunity attack occurs once a creature has moved out of reach. The move outside of range (the trigger) must first happen, and the opportunity attack (the reaction) happens after the creature has left range, but the reaction is applied to the creature before it has escaped range. This is why a creature's speed is 0ft instead of 5ft if the reaction comes from one that has the sentinel feat. Shield is another example. The spell specifically describes being hit as the trigger, and while the casting happens after in response to being hit, the effect is applied before, making it possible to turn that hit into a miss.
There are an awful lot of mental gymnastics happening just to avoid admitting that one is wrong.
DM mostly, Player occasionally | Session 0 form | He/Him/They/Them
EXTENDED SIGNATURE!
Doctor/Published Scholar/Science and Healthcare Advocate/Critter/Trekkie/Gandalf with a Glock
Try DDB free: Free Rules (2024), premade PCs, adventures, one shots, encounters, SC, homebrew, more
Answers: physical books, purchases, and subbing.
Check out my life-changing
We covered this earlier. If you try to apply the effect of feather fall before the trigger, then it fails because there are no valid targets.
Why? Because before the creatures fall, there are no "falling creatures". Which, is what the spell targets.
When a reaction happens before its trigger, it will say so. The default assumption for reactions is actually that they happen after the trigger. This, too was covered already. And the relevant rules were already quoted.
I'm sure you'd agree that dndbeyond is a friendly and inclusive space, where we encourage people to share their thoughts and opinions on topics related to d&d. As this is a conversation that all are welcome to participate in, there is no need for anyone, at any time, to feel like they are in the wrong. Your voice matters, as does everyone else's, and they are welcome to express themselves.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.