We covered this earlier. If you try to apply the effect of feather fall before the trigger, then it fails because there are no valid targets.
Why? Because before the creatures fall, there are no "falling creatures". Which, is what the spell targets.
There are several errors made in your post. You assert that feather fall will fail as there is no valid target. You are wrong in that assertion. This interpretation is a failure to understand the spell when reading it and to understand the rules, which several people have labored extensively to help you understand. The spell interrupts the fall, irrespective of which rule you use. It does what it says it does after all, and what it says is that it changes a fall from a potentially damaging one to one that will be free of damage if they land before the spell ends. It does not say that it fails if you use one rule or another, therefore it does not fail in the conditions outlined. It works in the same way Sentinel does to prevent movement despite the reaction occurring after a creature has left attack range. It works in the same way that Shield changes a hit into a possible miss after the hit occurs. I encourage you to review the rules for reactions again because if you covered it earlier, it seems that you may have forgotten the details that were discussed.
Can you furnish a rule that states that when applying the optional rule for falling that reactions become impossible? That is what would be required to satisfy your burden of proof here. It is fairly common that people mistake their own houserules for official rules and I suspect that is the case in this discussion. The spell does not describe falling creatures (suggesting the passage of time) in the reaction trigger, which is another error you have made in understanding the spell. You ignore the inconvenient and very specific mechanics of the spell, which applies comfortably to both rules, in favor of a spell description that at best is mildly inconvenient for the optional rule, though still a non-issue as the mechanics listed are clear. The spell reaction specifies that the trigger is when a creature 'falls'. There is an instant where a creature falls even if there is no literal passage of time. That instant is the trigger for another instant (the reaction spell) which by description instantly changes the fall to a comfortable descent.
When a reaction happens before its trigger, it will say so. The default assumption for reactions is actually that they happen after the trigger. This, too was covered already. And the relevant rules were already quoted.
Sorry, but this is a reading comprehension failure. I never said that reactions happen before the trigger by default. There are some that merely have their effect applied before the trigger and I gave several common examples. We are in agreement here. In fact, you quoted all of my given examples to support that we are in agreement in your rebuttal that seems to be directed at some... other argument?
I'm sure you'd agree that dndbeyond is a friendly and inclusive space, where we encourage people to share their thoughts and opinions on topics related to d&d. As this is a conversation that all are welcome to participate in, there is no need for anyone, at any time, to feel like they are in the wrong. Your voice matters, as does everyone else's, and they are welcome to express themselves.
I have not discouraged posting. Please continue to post as you wish. In a forum for rules and mechanics, there must be someone that is wrong or there would be little discussion at all. Your contribution here is valued in its wrongness.
If there are no falling creatures, you have nothing to target. So the spell fails.
Spells can only target what they say they can target.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
If there are no falling creatures, you have nothing to target. So the spell fails.
There are falling creatures, because the trigger is a creature falling. You seem to have this idea that "instant" means "not interruptible", and that's simply not how the rules work.
By the rules in XGTE, a 499' fall is instant, a 500' fall takes a round. Does that mean it takes 6s to fall the final 1'? No, it means that 'instant' means "takes less than a round".
If there are no falling creatures, you have nothing to target. So the spell fails.
There are falling creatures, because the trigger is a creature falling.
That isn't the trigger. The trigger is "when you or a creature within 60 feet of you falls".
But, falls are completed instantly (according to XGTE). There are only two "points in time" in which your spell can even happen.
Before the fall. Or after the fall.
If you are arguing the spell can happen mid-fall, then you agree that falls aren't instantaneous.
You seem to have this idea that "instant" means "not interruptible", and that's simply not how the rules work.
Sure it is. Point to one example to the contrary. Go ahead and point to a single example of something that is instantaneous being interrupted. And in this case interrupted means happening simultaneously. Ie "during".
We know stuff can trigger and complete "before" the trigger. Sure. And, we know stuff can trigger and complete "after" the trigger. But give an example of something triggering that completed "during" the trigger of an instantaneous effect.
There are none. Because it is word salad to say that something interrupts an instant effect. Instant effects have only a before, and an after, but not a during. That is the very distinction between an instant effect and a non-instant one.
By the rules in XGTE, a 499' fall is instant, a 500' fall takes a round. Does that mean it takes 6s to fall the final 1'? No, it means that 'instant' means "takes less than a round".
No this is just more evidence of my initial claim. The XGTE optional rule is poorly conceived and worse written. The default rules are sufficient to know how falls are handled.
(PS. By this new definition of yours, someone can have a whole turn during an instant effect, since it "takes less than a round". A problematic definition, to be sure. Thankfully they didn't use it in the rules)
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
If there are no falling creatures, you have nothing to target. So the spell fails.
Spells can only target what they say they can target.
Incorrect again. There is an asterisk on the reaction of the spell and when you read what that annotation is, it states that the reaction can be applied when at least one creature experiences a fall within 60ft of the caster. Unless you able to provide some official text that states this optional rule prevents reactions, this discussion is less about the rules and more about who has more stamina.
If there are no falling creatures, you have nothing to target. So the spell fails.
Spells can only target what they say they can target.
Incorrect again. There is an asterisk on the reaction of the spell and when you read what that annotation is, it states that the reaction can be applied when at least one creature experiences a fall within 60ft of the caster. Unless you able to provide some official text that states this optional rule prevents reactions, this discussion is less about the rules and more about who has more stamina.
The reaction triggers when a creature falls.
Falls, if you use XGTE, are instantaneous. The simply happen all at once. So "when a creature falls" means when a creature "instantly falls up to 500ft". Your spell is either interrupting the trigger, and happening before it. or it happens after it. Because there is no "during it" because the fall is instant.
Otherwise you agree there is a "during" a fall. And, if you agree there is a "during" the fall you agree the fall doesn't happen in an instant, and are not using XGTE optional rule.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
(PS. By this new definition of yours, someone can have a whole turn during an instant effect, since it "takes less than a round". A problematic definition, to be sure. Thankfully they didn't use it in the rules)
Instant means "completes before any character gets a turn". If they had finer granularity on time measurement they might do things like say it takes a certain amount of initiative (you start falling on initiative 20 and land on initiative 15, or w/e), but they haven't chosen to do that.
If there are no falling creatures, you have nothing to target. So the spell fails.
Spells can only target what they say they can target.
Incorrect again. There is an asterisk on the reaction of the spell and when you read what that annotation is, it states that the reaction can be applied when at least one creature experiences a fall within 60ft of the caster. Unless you able to provide some official text that states this optional rule prevents reactions, this discussion is less about the rules and more about who has more stamina.
The reaction triggers when a creature falls.
Falls, if you use XGTE, are instantaneous. The simply happen all at once. So "when a creature falls" means when a creature "instantly falls up to 500ft". Your spell is either interrupting the trigger, and happening before it. or it happens after it. Because there is no "during it" because the fall is instant.
Otherwise you agree there is a "during" a fall. And, if you agree there is a "during" the fall you agree the fall doesn't happen in an instant, and are not using XGTE optional rule.
When a creature experiences a fall is correct. You are unfortunately injecting a time interval where none is required to perform the spell. I am assuming it is an 'instant' and just as the rules support, another 'instant' is permitted in the form of a reaction. As stated previously, the fall does happen because the trigger is required for it to happen. A reaction is then permitted to interrupt that instant and change it into some other game item, in this case a speed of 60ft per round. As I said, mental gymnastics.
Reaction timing here occur before Its trigger complete, which for feather fall is when you or a creature within 60 feet of you falls, having for effect to exceptionally have the rate of descent slows to 60 feet per round.
Generally falls complete before you can do anything, but the spell specifically affect it before then. #SpecificvsGeneral
Ravnodaus, hopefully it doesn't seem like you're getting ganged up on -- we are all just practicing our rules lawyering in this forum and it's a friendly discussion.
Once again, I think that it confuses the issue a bit when you keep using the word "instantaneous" in a lot of your posts. There is nothing in the rules for falling which uses that word. Instead, in the optional rulebook the wording is:
The rule for falling assumes that a creature immediately drops the entire distance when it falls.
. . .
When you fall from a great height, you instantly descend up to 500 feet.
It is just your interpretation that these events occur for a duration that is instantaneous. That is not how many of us are reading the rule. The word "immediately" commonly means "at once", "right away", "promptly", "without delay" and so on. The word "instantly" can sometimes mean "instantaneously" but it can also mean "all of a sudden", "abruptly", "at once", "right away" and so on. Plus, in the rule these adverbs could be referring to the start of the event and not the entire event. Or, it could mean that the end of the fall or the end of the 500 feet occurs "without delay", meaning we do not wait 6 seconds and resolve the rest of the fall on the next round. Surely you can see that these are all reasonable ways to read and interpret these descriptions that are described as happening "immediately" or "instantly".
However, even if we did assume that the entire fall itself happens in an instantaneous amount of time, it can STILL be interrupted by a reaction, which also occurs instantly and requires no time:
Reactions
Certain special abilities, spells, and situations allow you to take a special action called a reaction. A reaction is an instant response to a trigger
So this is what is happening here. There is an event that occurs which is that a creature falls. By definition, that creature is now a "falling creature". This event is a trigger which causes the creature to "immediately drops the entire distance" or to "instantly descend up to 500 feet". However, this event is ALSO a trigger for the reaction of the Feather Fall spell, which responds instantly to the trigger by rule. The event of the fall is then resolved in this new way as described by the spell. The spell works as intended.
You previously asked for others to "Go ahead and point to a single example of something that is instantaneous being interrupted."
There are tons of examples of this. Some have already been given in this thread. The Shield spell vs an attack or a magic missile is one example.
Here are some rules for resolving damage:
3. Resolve the attack. You make the attack roll. On a hit, you roll damage, unless the particular attack has rules that specify otherwise. Some attacks cause special effects in addition to or instead of damage.
. . .
Whenever a creature takes damage, that damage is subtracted from its hit points.
Although the word "instantly" is never used, many would argue that this process for resolving damage from an attack happens instantly. But now we have the Shield spell, which has a casting time of 1 reaction (instant). One of its triggers is "When you are hit by an attack". The effect is that you get a bonus to your AC, "including against the triggering attack". So what happens there is that a hit occurs which triggers the process of rolling for damage, and the creature taking damage triggers the subtraction of hit points, even though all of these things are happening instantly. However, when the hit occurs, that also triggers the reaction for the Shield spell and the Shield spell goes on to work as intended.
Alternatively, we have Shield vs Magic Missile. The duration of Magic Missile is "instantaneous". During this instantaneous timeframe, creatures are automatically hit and damaged. But now we have the Shield spell, which has a casting time of 1 reaction (instant). One of its triggers is when you are "targeted by the magic missile spell". The effect is that "you take no damage from magic missile". So what happens there is that the magic missile spell is cast and a creature is targeted. That triggers the instantaneous auto-hit and damage. However, when the creature is targeted, that also triggers the reaction for the Shield spell and the Shield spell goes on to work as intended.
Just for fun, I'll offer another example which might be controversial but here it is anyway. The example is that you can Counterspell a Counterspell. So, Counterspell has a casting time of 1 reaction (instant). Its duration is "instantaneous". The effect is that "You attempt to interrupt a creature in the process of casting a spell". So, how is this possible if the first Counterspell is so fast? Like above, the answer has to do with triggers. The first counterspell is cast instantly. This triggers its effect, which happens for an instantaneous amount of time. However, that process of casting that first counterspell ALSO triggers the reaction for the 2nd Counterspell. The response to that trigger occurs instantly and its effect interrupts the first Counterspell and it works as intended.
There are tons of examples like this in the game. That's how reactions were designed.
Like i said earlier, the Ring of Feather Falling that also affect a fall, this without even using a reaction, and yet it's clear it's a case where Specific Beats General rule again;
Ring of Feather Falling : When you fall while wearing this ring, you descend 60 feet per round and take no damage from falling.
(PS. By this new definition of yours, someone can have a whole turn during an instant effect, since it "takes less than a round". A problematic definition, to be sure. Thankfully they didn't use it in the rules)
Instant means "completes before any character gets a turn". If they had finer granularity on time measurement they might do things like say it takes a certain amount of initiative (you start falling on initiative 20 and land on initiative 15, or w/e), but they haven't chosen to do that.
Ah, this clears things up. You're using a definition for "instantaneous" or "instant" that doesn't align with what they are commonly understood to mean.
Given that, and how you rule it works, you agree with me.
That settles that really, as trying to convince you what basic words actually mean is a little outside the scope of these forums. If you have alternative definitions, then you just do.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
If there are no falling creatures, you have nothing to target. So the spell fails.
Spells can only target what they say they can target.
Incorrect again. There is an asterisk on the reaction of the spell and when you read what that annotation is, it states that the reaction can be applied when at least one creature experiences a fall within 60ft of the caster. Unless you able to provide some official text that states this optional rule prevents reactions, this discussion is less about the rules and more about who has more stamina.
The reaction triggers when a creature falls.
Falls, if you use XGTE, are instantaneous. The simply happen all at once. So "when a creature falls" means when a creature "instantly falls up to 500ft". Your spell is either interrupting the trigger, and happening before it. or it happens after it. Because there is no "during it" because the fall is instant.
Otherwise you agree there is a "during" a fall. And, if you agree there is a "during" the fall you agree the fall doesn't happen in an instant, and are not using XGTE optional rule.
When a creature experiences a fall is correct. You are unfortunately injecting a time interval where none is required to perform the spell. I am assuming it is an 'instant' and just as the rules support, another 'instant' is permitted in the form of a reaction. As stated previously, the fall does happen because the trigger is required for it to happen. A reaction is then permitted to interrupt that instant and change it into some other game item, in this case a speed of 60ft per round. As I said, mental gymnastics.
Oh no. The time interval of mid-fall is absolutely crucial for feather fall.
Why? Because the spell targets "falling" creatures. And the only time a creature is a "falling creature" is... well, mid-fall.
So the must be a mid-fall interval. And, because there is a mid-fall interval, we know the fall isn't instant.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Oh no. The time interval of mid-fall is absolutely crucial for feather fall.
Why? Because the spell targets "falling" creatures. And the only time a creature is a "falling creature" is... well, mid-fall.
So the must be a mid-fall interval. And, because there is a mid-fall interval, we know the fall isn't instant.
Nope. We just know that the target does not engage in discontinuous movement (i.e. it doesn't teleport). A target is falling if its position is between its start point and end point, there's no requirement for time.
Suppose someone falls and there's a net beneath them. That's clearly interrupting their fall, but it can also clearly do so even if the fall takes zero time (for that matter, hitting the ground is also interrupting your fall).
Oh no. The time interval of mid-fall is absolutely crucial for feather fall.
Why? Because the spell targets "falling" creatures. And the only time a creature is a "falling creature" is... well, mid-fall.
So the must be a mid-fall interval. And, because there is a mid-fall interval, we know the fall isn't instant.
Nope. We just know that the target does not engage in discontinuous movement (i.e. it doesn't teleport). A target is falling if its position is between its start point and end point, there's no requirement for time.
Suppose someone falls and there's a net beneath them. That's clearly interrupting their fall, but it can also clearly do so even if the fall takes zero time (for that matter, hitting the ground is also interrupting your fall).
Neither of those examples interrupt your fall. That are what you fall onto. No one said anything about teleporting.
There is of course a requirement for time, though, since you are trying to time the application of a spell effect. When. When does the spell apply to the targets? You must have an answer.
The answer is that it applies during the mid-fall interval of time. And, because this interval of time exists, we know the fall is not instant.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
You should go back and read my previous post which provides a detailed explanation which pretty much agrees with what Pantagruel666, Erik_Soong and others have been saying.
There is a clear rule given for how Reactions work in the game which has been quoted many times now. Reactions occur as an instant response to a trigger. No time is required, by rule. It is all about the triggers. Events which allow for cause and effect. In this case the event is that a creature falls. Without this event nothing happens. When this event occurs, it triggers the existence of a falling creature. It triggers the creature immediately falling the entire distance (or alternatively, it triggers the creature instantly descending 500 feet). It also triggers the opportunity for a Reaction. It's right there in the rules and it's a common game mechanic.
The point is, it's going to be important for you to understand how this works in order for you to run your games well because it's a concept that comes up all over the place in the game.
You should go back and read my previous post which provides a detailed explanation which pretty much agrees with what Pantagruel666, Erik_Soong and others have been saying.
There is a clear rule given for how Reactions work in the game which has been quoted many times now. Reactions occur as an instant response to a trigger. No time is required, by rule. It is all about the triggers. Events which allow for cause and effect. In this case the event is that a creature falls. Without this event nothing happens. When this event occurs, it triggers the existence of a falling creature. It triggers the creature immediately falling the entire distance (or alternatively, it triggers the creature instantly descending 500 feet). It also triggers the opportunity for a Reaction. It's right there in the rules and it's a common game mechanic.
If a "fall is instant" then "when a creature falls" happens and concludes in an instant, and the reaction is immediately after it, in response to it. Ie. After the fall.
The point is, it's going to be important for you to understand how this works in order for you to run your games well because it's a concept that comes up all over the place in the game.
I run my games perfectly fine. It sounds like you all agree with my ruling, too, which is why this is asorta comical.
Because you agree that there is an intervening period of time wherein creatures are falling.
Which means you're not using instant fall optional rules. You're just mistakenly insisting that you are.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
It doesn't matter if a fall happens in an instant or is instantaneously or no rate of descent is written, the point is that rules that are Specific Beats General ones whenever there is, this wether a reaction is used or not. How much time exist between the moment you start and end falling is not important when there is an effect triggering off a fall.
If there's no fall-altering effect, then you fall the entire distance unless it's a high altitude drop of 500+ feet, at which point you may decide to use or not use the optional rule for rate of fall at 500 feet per round.
Oh no. The time interval of mid-fall is absolutely crucial for feather fall.
Why? Because the spell targets "falling" creatures. And the only time a creature is a "falling creature" is... well, mid-fall.
So the must be a mid-fall interval. And, because there is a mid-fall interval, we know the fall isn't instant.
Once again, you are ignoring the actual mechanical rules stated in the spell. The spell has a reaction with a specific description that states when a 'creature experiences a fall'. Many have pointed out to you that specific beats general and this too is RAW. You can continue to ignore rules that do not suit you, but doing so only cements your position in its absolute wrongness.
It doesn't matter if a fall happens in an instant or is instantaneously or no rate of descent is written, the point is that rules that are Specific Beats General ones whenever there is, this wether a reaction is used or not. How much time exist between the moment you start and end falling is not important when there is an effect triggering off a fall.
How much time isn't important. Correct.
That there is time at all, however, is important.
If the fall is instant, there is no time. There is before it, and after it. But not a during-it.
But if it is a non-instant event, as it is assumed to be before Xanathars tries to muck things up, then of course there is a during-it stage.
You agree there is a during-it stage. So you agree there is an amount of time that transpires during the fall.
So... you should be in agreement here, that falls are not instant.
If there's no fall-altering effect, then you fall the entire distance unless it's a high altitude drop of 500+ feet, at which point you may decide to use or not use the optional rule for rate of fall at 500 feet per round.
This sequence isn't at all how people play the game. I don't think I've ever seen a DM decide whether or not he's going to apply an optional rule to his games in response to someone casting feather fall. That's about as backwards as it gets.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
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There are several errors made in your post. You assert that feather fall will fail as there is no valid target. You are wrong in that assertion. This interpretation is a failure to understand the spell when reading it and to understand the rules, which several people have labored extensively to help you understand. The spell interrupts the fall, irrespective of which rule you use. It does what it says it does after all, and what it says is that it changes a fall from a potentially damaging one to one that will be free of damage if they land before the spell ends. It does not say that it fails if you use one rule or another, therefore it does not fail in the conditions outlined. It works in the same way Sentinel does to prevent movement despite the reaction occurring after a creature has left attack range. It works in the same way that Shield changes a hit into a possible miss after the hit occurs. I encourage you to review the rules for reactions again because if you covered it earlier, it seems that you may have forgotten the details that were discussed.
Can you furnish a rule that states that when applying the optional rule for falling that reactions become impossible? That is what would be required to satisfy your burden of proof here. It is fairly common that people mistake their own houserules for official rules and I suspect that is the case in this discussion. The spell does not describe falling creatures (suggesting the passage of time) in the reaction trigger, which is another error you have made in understanding the spell. You ignore the inconvenient and very specific mechanics of the spell, which applies comfortably to both rules, in favor of a spell description that at best is mildly inconvenient for the optional rule, though still a non-issue as the mechanics listed are clear. The spell reaction specifies that the trigger is when a creature 'falls'. There is an instant where a creature falls even if there is no literal passage of time. That instant is the trigger for another instant (the reaction spell) which by description instantly changes the fall to a comfortable descent.
Sorry, but this is a reading comprehension failure. I never said that reactions happen before the trigger by default. There are some that merely have their effect applied before the trigger and I gave several common examples. We are in agreement here. In fact, you quoted all of my given examples to support that we are in agreement in your rebuttal that seems to be directed at some... other argument?
I have not discouraged posting. Please continue to post as you wish. In a forum for rules and mechanics, there must be someone that is wrong or there would be little discussion at all. Your contribution here is valued in its wrongness.
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If there are no falling creatures, you have nothing to target. So the spell fails.
Spells can only target what they say they can target.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
There are falling creatures, because the trigger is a creature falling. You seem to have this idea that "instant" means "not interruptible", and that's simply not how the rules work.
By the rules in XGTE, a 499' fall is instant, a 500' fall takes a round. Does that mean it takes 6s to fall the final 1'? No, it means that 'instant' means "takes less than a round".
That isn't the trigger. The trigger is "when you or a creature within 60 feet of you falls".
But, falls are completed instantly (according to XGTE). There are only two "points in time" in which your spell can even happen.
Before the fall. Or after the fall.
If you are arguing the spell can happen mid-fall, then you agree that falls aren't instantaneous.
Sure it is. Point to one example to the contrary. Go ahead and point to a single example of something that is instantaneous being interrupted. And in this case interrupted means happening simultaneously. Ie "during".
We know stuff can trigger and complete "before" the trigger. Sure. And, we know stuff can trigger and complete "after" the trigger. But give an example of something triggering that completed "during" the trigger of an instantaneous effect.
There are none. Because it is word salad to say that something interrupts an instant effect. Instant effects have only a before, and an after, but not a during. That is the very distinction between an instant effect and a non-instant one.
No this is just more evidence of my initial claim. The XGTE optional rule is poorly conceived and worse written. The default rules are sufficient to know how falls are handled.
(PS. By this new definition of yours, someone can have a whole turn during an instant effect, since it "takes less than a round". A problematic definition, to be sure. Thankfully they didn't use it in the rules)
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Incorrect again. There is an asterisk on the reaction of the spell and when you read what that annotation is, it states that the reaction can be applied when at least one creature experiences a fall within 60ft of the caster. Unless you able to provide some official text that states this optional rule prevents reactions, this discussion is less about the rules and more about who has more stamina.
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The reaction triggers when a creature falls.
Falls, if you use XGTE, are instantaneous. The simply happen all at once. So "when a creature falls" means when a creature "instantly falls up to 500ft". Your spell is either interrupting the trigger, and happening before it. or it happens after it. Because there is no "during it" because the fall is instant.
Otherwise you agree there is a "during" a fall. And, if you agree there is a "during" the fall you agree the fall doesn't happen in an instant, and are not using XGTE optional rule.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Nope, I'm arguing that the spell can happen mid-fall even if falls are instantaneous.
Instant means "completes before any character gets a turn". If they had finer granularity on time measurement they might do things like say it takes a certain amount of initiative (you start falling on initiative 20 and land on initiative 15, or w/e), but they haven't chosen to do that.
When a creature experiences a fall is correct. You are unfortunately injecting a time interval where none is required to perform the spell. I am assuming it is an 'instant' and just as the rules support, another 'instant' is permitted in the form of a reaction. As stated previously, the fall does happen because the trigger is required for it to happen. A reaction is then permitted to interrupt that instant and change it into some other game item, in this case a speed of 60ft per round. As I said, mental gymnastics.
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Reaction timing here occur before Its trigger complete, which for feather fall is when you or a creature within 60 feet of you falls, having for effect to exceptionally have the rate of descent slows to 60 feet per round.
Generally falls complete before you can do anything, but the spell specifically affect it before then. #SpecificvsGeneral
Ravnodaus, hopefully it doesn't seem like you're getting ganged up on -- we are all just practicing our rules lawyering in this forum and it's a friendly discussion.
Once again, I think that it confuses the issue a bit when you keep using the word "instantaneous" in a lot of your posts. There is nothing in the rules for falling which uses that word. Instead, in the optional rulebook the wording is:
It is just your interpretation that these events occur for a duration that is instantaneous. That is not how many of us are reading the rule. The word "immediately" commonly means "at once", "right away", "promptly", "without delay" and so on. The word "instantly" can sometimes mean "instantaneously" but it can also mean "all of a sudden", "abruptly", "at once", "right away" and so on. Plus, in the rule these adverbs could be referring to the start of the event and not the entire event. Or, it could mean that the end of the fall or the end of the 500 feet occurs "without delay", meaning we do not wait 6 seconds and resolve the rest of the fall on the next round. Surely you can see that these are all reasonable ways to read and interpret these descriptions that are described as happening "immediately" or "instantly".
However, even if we did assume that the entire fall itself happens in an instantaneous amount of time, it can STILL be interrupted by a reaction, which also occurs instantly and requires no time:
So this is what is happening here. There is an event that occurs which is that a creature falls. By definition, that creature is now a "falling creature". This event is a trigger which causes the creature to "immediately drops the entire distance" or to "instantly descend up to 500 feet". However, this event is ALSO a trigger for the reaction of the Feather Fall spell, which responds instantly to the trigger by rule. The event of the fall is then resolved in this new way as described by the spell. The spell works as intended.
You previously asked for others to "Go ahead and point to a single example of something that is instantaneous being interrupted."
There are tons of examples of this. Some have already been given in this thread. The Shield spell vs an attack or a magic missile is one example.
Here are some rules for resolving damage:
Although the word "instantly" is never used, many would argue that this process for resolving damage from an attack happens instantly. But now we have the Shield spell, which has a casting time of 1 reaction (instant). One of its triggers is "When you are hit by an attack". The effect is that you get a bonus to your AC, "including against the triggering attack". So what happens there is that a hit occurs which triggers the process of rolling for damage, and the creature taking damage triggers the subtraction of hit points, even though all of these things are happening instantly. However, when the hit occurs, that also triggers the reaction for the Shield spell and the Shield spell goes on to work as intended.
Alternatively, we have Shield vs Magic Missile. The duration of Magic Missile is "instantaneous". During this instantaneous timeframe, creatures are automatically hit and damaged. But now we have the Shield spell, which has a casting time of 1 reaction (instant). One of its triggers is when you are "targeted by the magic missile spell". The effect is that "you take no damage from magic missile". So what happens there is that the magic missile spell is cast and a creature is targeted. That triggers the instantaneous auto-hit and damage. However, when the creature is targeted, that also triggers the reaction for the Shield spell and the Shield spell goes on to work as intended.
Just for fun, I'll offer another example which might be controversial but here it is anyway. The example is that you can Counterspell a Counterspell. So, Counterspell has a casting time of 1 reaction (instant). Its duration is "instantaneous". The effect is that "You attempt to interrupt a creature in the process of casting a spell". So, how is this possible if the first Counterspell is so fast? Like above, the answer has to do with triggers. The first counterspell is cast instantly. This triggers its effect, which happens for an instantaneous amount of time. However, that process of casting that first counterspell ALSO triggers the reaction for the 2nd Counterspell. The response to that trigger occurs instantly and its effect interrupts the first Counterspell and it works as intended.
There are tons of examples like this in the game. That's how reactions were designed.
Like i said earlier, the Ring of Feather Falling that also affect a fall, this without even using a reaction, and yet it's clear it's a case where Specific Beats General rule again;
Ah, this clears things up. You're using a definition for "instantaneous" or "instant" that doesn't align with what they are commonly understood to mean.
Given that, and how you rule it works, you agree with me.
That settles that really, as trying to convince you what basic words actually mean is a little outside the scope of these forums. If you have alternative definitions, then you just do.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Oh no. The time interval of mid-fall is absolutely crucial for feather fall.
Why? Because the spell targets "falling" creatures. And the only time a creature is a "falling creature" is... well, mid-fall.
So the must be a mid-fall interval. And, because there is a mid-fall interval, we know the fall isn't instant.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Nope. We just know that the target does not engage in discontinuous movement (i.e. it doesn't teleport). A target is falling if its position is between its start point and end point, there's no requirement for time.
Suppose someone falls and there's a net beneath them. That's clearly interrupting their fall, but it can also clearly do so even if the fall takes zero time (for that matter, hitting the ground is also interrupting your fall).
Neither of those examples interrupt your fall. That are what you fall onto. No one said anything about teleporting.
There is of course a requirement for time, though, since you are trying to time the application of a spell effect. When. When does the spell apply to the targets? You must have an answer.
The answer is that it applies during the mid-fall interval of time. And, because this interval of time exists, we know the fall is not instant.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
You should go back and read my previous post which provides a detailed explanation which pretty much agrees with what Pantagruel666, Erik_Soong and others have been saying.
There is a clear rule given for how Reactions work in the game which has been quoted many times now. Reactions occur as an instant response to a trigger. No time is required, by rule. It is all about the triggers. Events which allow for cause and effect. In this case the event is that a creature falls. Without this event nothing happens. When this event occurs, it triggers the existence of a falling creature. It triggers the creature immediately falling the entire distance (or alternatively, it triggers the creature instantly descending 500 feet). It also triggers the opportunity for a Reaction. It's right there in the rules and it's a common game mechanic.
The point is, it's going to be important for you to understand how this works in order for you to run your games well because it's a concept that comes up all over the place in the game.
If a "fall is instant" then "when a creature falls" happens and concludes in an instant, and the reaction is immediately after it, in response to it. Ie. After the fall.
I run my games perfectly fine. It sounds like you all agree with my ruling, too, which is why this is asorta comical.
Because you agree that there is an intervening period of time wherein creatures are falling.
Which means you're not using instant fall optional rules. You're just mistakenly insisting that you are.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
It doesn't matter if a fall happens in an instant or is instantaneously or no rate of descent is written, the point is that rules that are Specific Beats General ones whenever there is, this wether a reaction is used or not. How much time exist between the moment you start and end falling is not important when there is an effect triggering off a fall.
If there's no fall-altering effect, then you fall the entire distance unless it's a high altitude drop of 500+ feet, at which point you may decide to use or not use the optional rule for rate of fall at 500 feet per round.
Once again, you are ignoring the actual mechanical rules stated in the spell. The spell has a reaction with a specific description that states when a 'creature experiences a fall'. Many have pointed out to you that specific beats general and this too is RAW. You can continue to ignore rules that do not suit you, but doing so only cements your position in its absolute wrongness.
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How much time isn't important. Correct.
That there is time at all, however, is important.
If the fall is instant, there is no time. There is before it, and after it. But not a during-it.
But if it is a non-instant event, as it is assumed to be before Xanathars tries to muck things up, then of course there is a during-it stage.
You agree there is a during-it stage. So you agree there is an amount of time that transpires during the fall.
So... you should be in agreement here, that falls are not instant.
This sequence isn't at all how people play the game. I don't think I've ever seen a DM decide whether or not he's going to apply an optional rule to his games in response to someone casting feather fall. That's about as backwards as it gets.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.