Okay, I just cannot seem to wrap my mind around how to award XP in 5e.
Do you split the Total XP of creatures in the encounter by the number of players, or do you split the Adjusted XP for determining the encounter difficulty?
Phew... for a supposedly streamlined system (I still tend to think of 5e and 3.d lite), the XP system is difficult (for me, at least)!
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C. Foster Payne
"If you get to thinkin' you're a person of some influence, try orderin' somebody else's dog around."
You split the total XP by the number of players (and any NPCs that contributed significantly.) Adjusted XP is only used for determining encounter difficulty. This is mentioned in step 4 of the encounter building rules:
For example, if an encounter includes four monsters worth a total of 500 XP, you would multiply the total XP of the monsters by 2, for an adjusted value of 1,000 XP. This adjusted value is notwhat the monsters are worth in terms of XP; the adjusted value’s only purpose is to help you accurately assess the encounter’s difficulty.
Xanathar's Guide to Everything has less confusing encounter-building rules that don't rely on XP thresholds and "adjusted XP" values.
Officially you use the xp for creatures, but sometimes I change it to the adjusted xp. I've had some stories where single big monsters did not make much sense, so I sent hordes of smaller ones on my players. This, however, significantly decreased the amount of xp per play time. XP is kind of abstract anyway; recently I've upped the xp significantly in order to get my group to level up.
"The giant scorpions down the hill can't reach you at all."
"We kill them Fire Bolts and Rays of Frost."
0 xp - RAW says otherwise but it's just senseless killing. I'm not rewarding that.
That's true, and this helps keeping the flow of the game natural. Although at the level where players can roflstomp enemies, the xp they award is so significantly low that it's not that big a deal.
Total non-DnD approach. I like to give XP for missed rolls. Kind of like real life, you learn by making mistakes. That's how you get better. Plus it gives players something to feel good about when they hit, or when they miss.
I just have players tabulate how many misses they have, then when they hit a threshold they level up!
Makes it so much easier. And it makes sense. Something I borrowed and adapted from Apocalypse Engine games.
If a player is just rolling too well, I also will level them up according to the milestone approach: at the completion of a major story element (if it seems an appropriate amount of time and adventuring has happened..).
Do you ever run into issues doing leveling based on different requirements? For instance, does this ever lead to some members of the party being multiple levels above a peer?
@Wysperra, I like that! It's a good strategy that gets players to think critically about their encounters and deters murderhobos and senseless/unreasonable killing for the sake of XP that does nothing for the overall story. Hope you don't mind if I borrow that? :)
Is there a problem with characters being at different levels? Even the examples for calculating XP for combat difficulty has a mixed level party. In the early game some players will just end up having more or less XP unless you gatekeep. If one party member decides to run ahead or hang back they should receive different xp for combat events. It's not RAW but if a player goes unconscious on the first turn and isn't gotten up till after combat ends should they get XP?
Is there a problem with characters being at different levels? Even the examples for calculating XP for combat difficulty has a mixed level party. In the early game some players will just end up having more or less XP unless you gatekeep. If one party member decides to run ahead or hang back they should receive different xp for combat events. It's not RAW but if a player goes unconscious on the first turn and isn't gotten up till after combat ends should they get XP?
If the level difference isn't that big, it's not going to matter much. (For reasons, I have a level 4 NPC accompanying a level 11 party in my game. That NPC definitely has a difficult time of it.)
That said, I don't think it's a good idea to hand out xp differently, especially not penalizing characters for bad luck. Keep them at the same level, and everyone will be happier. (And if you're doing that, there's not much argument against milestone leveling. Less arithmetic.)
Edit: I also advocate giving characters xp even when their player couldn't make the session, because life happens, and it's easier to keep a group together when attendance is not mandatory.
If i were a player at a table where other players were rewarded XP just for being part of the group even if they didnt show up, didnt contribute to combat, didnt affect anything tied to contribution earned XP i would leave the table and i dare say alot of other people would too. It is entirely unfair to your active players to award a character XP for a fight they contributed nothing to or they weren't even in. What about when a character dies? Does the player get to roll up a new character at the exact XP value of the one that died? At that point just rename the character and keep playing since you've removed any consequences to dying.
My players start at one level below the lowest character's level when they roll up something new. It provides a consequence to the death as well as makes the party as a whole become more cautious due to a lower average party level so that players are less apt to repeat the decisions that got a character killed.
If i were a player at a table where other players were rewarded XP just for being part of the group even if they didnt show up, didnt contribute to combat, didnt affect anything tied to contribution earned XP i would leave the table and i dare say alot of other people would too.
OK, bye.
Needless to say, I strongly disagree with you. People have lives, they have kids, they get sick, they need to work late/weekends/shifts, they get tickets to see Taylor Swift, etc. If you're disadvantaging them in the game for not being willing/able to prioritize the game over all other things, you give them steadily more incentive to leave, or not to play in the first place. This makes it harder to keep your group going. (Also, you presumably want to hang out with these people.)
It is entirely unfair to your active players to award a character XP for a fight they contributed nothing to or they weren't even in. What about when a character dies? Does the player get to roll up a new character at the exact XP value of the one that died? At that point just rename the character and keep playing since you've removed any consequences to dying.
The consequence of the character dying is that the character is dead. All they achieved is all they ever will. Their goals, hopes, and dreams will remain unfulfilled. The connections they have with PCs and NPCs are lost. Their shiny toys are presumably lost. Even if you come back with Donan the Barbarian, he's not going to be the same guy as his late, lamented, brother. (And I don't think anyone I play with is the type to do that.)
If you're scheduling sessions with your players and one is repeatedly not showing up they shouldn't be in the game. Missing one session in 10 isn't going to drop a character so far back that its going to matter and that session could just be rescheduled. My table has been playing for years and if someone can't make it we just don't play that day.
I could literally make a character in your game, enter a dungeon with the party and then just say im hanging out at the entrance. By your own admission i would get XP just for being there even if i did nothing the whole game. Who at a table would think that was fair?
The "reward" for playing D&D is enjoying the game, not leveling up and writing stuff on your sheet.
The players who play have a good time. The players that don't play didn't have the good time. The players who play have great stories. The players that didn't play get to hear some great stories.
I just don't think you value the benefits you receive for playing as much as you should.
Anyone can write an epic story about a character and write up a character sheet for a high-level character. But playing a character that earns that experience is much better.
I think that if you don't keep the party together at the same level, your group is going to fall apart.
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Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
The "reward" for playing D&D is enjoying the game, not leveling up and writing stuff on your sheet.
Yea I have to agree with this. We play for the fun, for the story and for the role play and our characters makes decisions based on their character, not on the XP they would earn in any particular situation. We use milestone levelling because it doesn't make much sense for us not to and really the only reason we level at all is that it is fun to get a few new toys every now and then and it helps allowing the DM to throw a different opponent/challenge our way.
I'm beginning to lean toward milestone too. I am DM-ing a game right now and it is taking for-ev-er to go from level 4 to level 5.
Yeah, if the party is leveling in lockstep, there's no reason not to do milestone. You can even track xp behind the scenes if you want a baseline, but it lets you speed things up or slow them down as needed. My game is pretty combat-light, so xp leveling would make it a slog.
(I started out doing xp, and I think I tossed it out before they hit level 2.)
Maybe this is a bit off topic but there is some value in using XP even if the plan is to keep the party all the same level.
One thing you can do with XP is reward spot bonuses to highlight cool moments and reward good behaviors. You just need to keep track of everyone's total XP to make sure everyone is staying roughly even.
Also you can change from primarily rewarding XP from combat to something else to help reinforce the tone of the game. If your group wants to play as a bunch of gang members or as pirates you can reward XP based on the gold they earn from heists or from attacking ports and mercantile ships. Or you could give XP rewards for skill challenges instead of for combat encounters for a mystery or social intrigue game.
In short, milestones are a convenient way to increase the parties power as the challenges escalate, but it doesn't really give feedback to the players. Rewarding XP like I suggest above is a lot more work, but it gives more regular and clear feedback to the players and helps shape the story you are all telling together.
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Okay, I just cannot seem to wrap my mind around how to award XP in 5e.
Do you split the Total XP of creatures in the encounter by the number of players, or do you split the Adjusted XP for determining the encounter difficulty?
Phew... for a supposedly streamlined system (I still tend to think of 5e and 3.d lite), the XP system is difficult (for me, at least)!
C. Foster Payne
"If you get to thinkin' you're a person of some influence, try orderin' somebody else's dog around."
You split the total XP by the number of players (and any NPCs that contributed significantly.) Adjusted XP is only used for determining encounter difficulty. This is mentioned in step 4 of the encounter building rules:
Xanathar's Guide to Everything has less confusing encounter-building rules that don't rely on XP thresholds and "adjusted XP" values.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
Officially you use the xp for creatures, but sometimes I change it to the adjusted xp. I've had some stories where single big monsters did not make much sense, so I sent hordes of smaller ones on my players. This, however, significantly decreased the amount of xp per play time. XP is kind of abstract anyway; recently I've upped the xp significantly in order to get my group to level up.
Subclass: Dwarven Defender - Dragonborn Paragon
Feats: Artificer Apprentice
Monsters: Sheep - Spellbreaker Warforged Titan
Magic Items: Whipier - Ring of Secret Storage - Collar of the Guardian
Monster template: Skeletal Creature
I also sometimes give 0 xp for trivial kills.
"The giant scorpions down the hill can't reach you at all."
"We kill them Fire Bolts and Rays of Frost."
0 xp - RAW says otherwise but it's just senseless killing. I'm not rewarding that.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
That's true, and this helps keeping the flow of the game natural. Although at the level where players can roflstomp enemies, the xp they award is so significantly low that it's not that big a deal.
Subclass: Dwarven Defender - Dragonborn Paragon
Feats: Artificer Apprentice
Monsters: Sheep - Spellbreaker Warforged Titan
Magic Items: Whipier - Ring of Secret Storage - Collar of the Guardian
Monster template: Skeletal Creature
Total non-DnD approach. I like to give XP for missed rolls. Kind of like real life, you learn by making mistakes. That's how you get better. Plus it gives players something to feel good about when they hit, or when they miss.
I just have players tabulate how many misses they have, then when they hit a threshold they level up!
Makes it so much easier. And it makes sense. Something I borrowed and adapted from Apocalypse Engine games.
If a player is just rolling too well, I also will level them up according to the milestone approach: at the completion of a major story element (if it seems an appropriate amount of time and adventuring has happened..).
Do you ever run into issues doing leveling based on different requirements? For instance, does this ever lead to some members of the party being multiple levels above a peer?
This is why I have ditched xp completely and just award a level every 2-3 games. Unless the events in the game dictate otherwise.
@Wysperra, I like that! It's a good strategy that gets players to think critically about their encounters and deters murderhobos and senseless/unreasonable killing for the sake of XP that does nothing for the overall story. Hope you don't mind if I borrow that? :)
I like your idea. I'm going to test it next campaign. Thanks for sharing.
Is there a problem with characters being at different levels? Even the examples for calculating XP for combat difficulty has a mixed level party. In the early game some players will just end up having more or less XP unless you gatekeep. If one party member decides to run ahead or hang back they should receive different xp for combat events. It's not RAW but if a player goes unconscious on the first turn and isn't gotten up till after combat ends should they get XP?
If the level difference isn't that big, it's not going to matter much. (For reasons, I have a level 4 NPC accompanying a level 11 party in my game. That NPC definitely has a difficult time of it.)
That said, I don't think it's a good idea to hand out xp differently, especially not penalizing characters for bad luck. Keep them at the same level, and everyone will be happier. (And if you're doing that, there's not much argument against milestone leveling. Less arithmetic.)
Edit: I also advocate giving characters xp even when their player couldn't make the session, because life happens, and it's easier to keep a group together when attendance is not mandatory.
If i were a player at a table where other players were rewarded XP just for being part of the group even if they didnt show up, didnt contribute to combat, didnt affect anything tied to contribution earned XP i would leave the table and i dare say alot of other people would too. It is entirely unfair to your active players to award a character XP for a fight they contributed nothing to or they weren't even in. What about when a character dies? Does the player get to roll up a new character at the exact XP value of the one that died? At that point just rename the character and keep playing since you've removed any consequences to dying.
My players start at one level below the lowest character's level when they roll up something new. It provides a consequence to the death as well as makes the party as a whole become more cautious due to a lower average party level so that players are less apt to repeat the decisions that got a character killed.
OK, bye.
Needless to say, I strongly disagree with you. People have lives, they have kids, they get sick, they need to work late/weekends/shifts, they get tickets to see Taylor Swift, etc. If you're disadvantaging them in the game for not being willing/able to prioritize the game over all other things, you give them steadily more incentive to leave, or not to play in the first place. This makes it harder to keep your group going. (Also, you presumably want to hang out with these people.)
The consequence of the character dying is that the character is dead. All they achieved is all they ever will. Their goals, hopes, and dreams will remain unfulfilled. The connections they have with PCs and NPCs are lost. Their shiny toys are presumably lost. Even if you come back with Donan the Barbarian, he's not going to be the same guy as his late, lamented, brother. (And I don't think anyone I play with is the type to do that.)
If you're scheduling sessions with your players and one is repeatedly not showing up they shouldn't be in the game. Missing one session in 10 isn't going to drop a character so far back that its going to matter and that session could just be rescheduled. My table has been playing for years and if someone can't make it we just don't play that day.
I could literally make a character in your game, enter a dungeon with the party and then just say im hanging out at the entrance. By your own admission i would get XP just for being there even if i did nothing the whole game. Who at a table would think that was fair?
The "reward" for playing D&D is enjoying the game, not leveling up and writing stuff on your sheet.
The players who play have a good time. The players that don't play didn't have the good time. The players who play have great stories. The players that didn't play get to hear some great stories.
I just don't think you value the benefits you receive for playing as much as you should.
Anyone can write an epic story about a character and write up a character sheet for a high-level character. But playing a character that earns that experience is much better.
I think that if you don't keep the party together at the same level, your group is going to fall apart.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
Yea I have to agree with this. We play for the fun, for the story and for the role play and our characters makes decisions based on their character, not on the XP they would earn in any particular situation. We use milestone levelling because it doesn't make much sense for us not to and really the only reason we level at all is that it is fun to get a few new toys every now and then and it helps allowing the DM to throw a different opponent/challenge our way.
I'm beginning to lean toward milestone too. I am DM-ing a game right now and it is taking for-ev-er to go from level 4 to level 5.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
Yeah, if the party is leveling in lockstep, there's no reason not to do milestone. You can even track xp behind the scenes if you want a baseline, but it lets you speed things up or slow them down as needed. My game is pretty combat-light, so xp leveling would make it a slog.
(I started out doing xp, and I think I tossed it out before they hit level 2.)
Maybe this is a bit off topic but there is some value in using XP even if the plan is to keep the party all the same level.
One thing you can do with XP is reward spot bonuses to highlight cool moments and reward good behaviors. You just need to keep track of everyone's total XP to make sure everyone is staying roughly even.
Also you can change from primarily rewarding XP from combat to something else to help reinforce the tone of the game. If your group wants to play as a bunch of gang members or as pirates you can reward XP based on the gold they earn from heists or from attacking ports and mercantile ships. Or you could give XP rewards for skill challenges instead of for combat encounters for a mystery or social intrigue game.
In short, milestones are a convenient way to increase the parties power as the challenges escalate, but it doesn't really give feedback to the players. Rewarding XP like I suggest above is a lot more work, but it gives more regular and clear feedback to the players and helps shape the story you are all telling together.