witch bolt

Decent damage on a hit, and then you automatically do 1D12 damage as a bonus action every turn after. They've buffed this spell in almost every conceivable way, and it was already decently powerful. Here's some math I did a while ago: 

"I think this spell is overpowered now. You can cast it at level one, doing high damage on a hit. For every turn after (until you lose concentration) you get an automatic d12 of damage as a bonus action. You can then use your action to either cast a cantrip (like poison spray) every round after. The dpr over 3 rounds with a hit rate of 65% would be (8.45 + 10.725 + 10.725)/3, or 9.96 dpr.

Compare this to casting magic missile and poison spray twice, which would be (10.5 + 4.225 + 4.225)/3 or 6.316 dpr.

(one thing to note, if the enemy you cast witch bolt on dies, the spell is over)"

(should you use quotes for yourself?)

You aren't even limited to a cantrip on subsequent turns...

I agree, they way overtuned it in response to everyone hating on the 2014 version

I didn't even realize how much they buffed it, but I think they made this spell overpowered for sure.

2014: 1d12 on hit, action to continue it. Higher Spell slot buffs initial damage

2024: 2d12 on hit, bonus action to continue at 1d12. Higher Spell slot buffs initial damage

For both versions the major downside for the witch bolt is the fact that it can miss. But for a 2d12 on a hit for a level 1 spell slot, it just became very good.

Witch bolt was decent, but nothing special in 2014, but now it's a Bonus Action to keep it, meaning that you can use your action to cast another spell at the same time. Which is usually increasing the DPR by 6.5. This spell is also clearly meant to be used as a boss encounter kind of spell like blight, but now it doesn't have to be because you can concentrate on witch bolt while using other spells like magic missile that don't need concentration. 

I actually have a character built in part around maximizing how much mayhem I can cause with spells like 2014 witch bolt. The 2024 version is just... stupid

I think it's fine, because it's single-target damage.

Most of the time, especially at low levels, you're fighting a bunch of relatively brittle dudes. You hit, it lasts for a round, maybe two, and they die. Meanwhile, they get to act while they're dying. (And it's concentration, and you aren't good at con saves yet.)

It's good, don't get me wrong, but in most cases, you'd rather have more damage up front, and no lingering, or a rider effect that more directly impairs them.

The range was the real problem in the 2014 rules.  Only 30 foot range and the spell automatically ends if the target gets further away from you is pretty bad: generally you don't want to get that close to something actually worth casting a slotted spell on instead of a cantrip.  Gives it a very good chance of either running up into your face and beating on you until you fail a concentration save or running away so that the spell ends.  With range buffed to 60 feet, that makes it far less situational.  I don't think that the 2024 is completely OP, but it's now a much more viable spell than it used to be.

IMO it's a good spell for tier 1 characters. Beyond that, there are probably better spells to use your slots on, especially if they can be upcast and/or are Area of Effect spells.

Quote from 6thLyranGuard >>

The range was the real problem in the 2014 rules.  Only 30 foot range and the spell automatically ends if the target gets further away from you is pretty bad: generally you don't want to get that close to something actually worth casting a slotted spell on instead of a cantrip.  Gives it a very good chance of either running up into your face and beating on you until you fail a concentration save or running away so that the spell ends.  With range buffed to 60 feet, that makes it far less situational.  I don't think that the 2024 is completely OP, but it's now a much more viable spell than it used to be.

Yeah, increasing the range was a good idea. "Still get to do significant automatic damage on subsequent turns even if you miss the initial attack roll", not so much

Eh, it's only a d12, and as others have pointed out, most enemies in tier 1 are only going to last a couple of rounds anyway, and out of tier 1 your cantrips hit harder.

I still put it on the okay to weak side. Its only 1d12 continuing damage. It has obvious counters. It requires concentration. Its only one target. Overall hunters mark/hex in tier 2 are better and they are pretty weak as well in tier 2 and beyond. And heck hunters mark on a dual wield ranger build is better in tier one. And neither is weaker with a single attack build in tier one. 

Yes and no, Bonus Action auto-damage that leaves your action free to do anything else i think is on the strong side early on, less so as as you get higher level.

It is definitely an improvement over the 2014 spell, but between concentration and poorly scaling damage I would rather just take Chromatic Orb and gamble on the bounce while keeping Misty Step in the chamber for my BA.

Quote from Erik_Soong >>

It is definitely an improvement over the 2014 spell, but between concentration and poorly scaling damage I would rather just take Chromatic Orb and gamble on the bounce while keeping Misty Step in the chamber for my BA.

It is one of those spells where in a specific situation it is great. Fighting a high hit point enemy in tier 1, its pretty sweet. But facing 4 kobolds odds are burning hands is better. Fighting multiple normal enemies hex is better. And yes in lots of cases yes chromatic orb is better. I guess its one of those it depends on what your DM throws at you. In my experience its overall going to be weaker than most other combat spells, but when its in its niche its pretty clutch. 

I feel like it's now the perfect spell for an Eldritch Knight build.

Quote from Erik_Soong >>

It is definitely an improvement over the 2014 spell, but between concentration and poorly scaling damage I would rather just take Chromatic Orb and gamble on the bounce while keeping Misty Step in the chamber for my BA.

I find it pretty hard to believe that [spells]chromatic orb[/spells is better. It has only .5 more initial damage, and I don't think the chance to jump is worth giving up the 6.5 automatic damage every turn. Also, if you need to misty step, then do that. You're still likely to be doing more damage even if you can't use the bonus action every round. A few caveats:

• chromatic orb probably upcasts better, but that doesn't really matter, as fireball is better at that point
• chromatic orb would be good with witch bolt, as it isn't concentration and might hit other targets too

Quote from TarodNet >>

IMO it's a good spell for tier 1 characters. Beyond that, there are probably better spells to use your slots on, especially if they can be upcast and/or are Area of Effect spells.

Well yeah, there are very few level 1 spells that are still useful beyond tier one. (obviously ignoring ones that are cast out of combat like find familiar)

Quote from MyDudeicus >>

Quote from Erik_Soong >>

It is definitely an improvement over the 2014 spell, but between concentration and poorly scaling damage I would rather just take Chromatic Orb and gamble on the bounce while keeping Misty Step in the chamber for my BA.

 

It is one of those spells where in a specific situation it is great. Fighting a high hit point enemy in tier 1, its pretty sweet. But facing 4 kobolds odds are burning hands is better. Fighting multiple normal enemies hex is better. And yes in lots of cases yes chromatic orb is better. I guess its one of those it depends on what your DM throws at you. In my experience its overall going to be weaker than most other combat spells, but when its in its niche its pretty clutch. 

Actually, compared to chromatic orb, witch bolt would be better here, as you are guaranteed to at least kill the enemy with the bonus action damage.

Quote from MyDudeicus >>

I still put it on the okay to weak side. Its only 1d12 continuing damage. It has obvious counters. It requires concentration. Its only one target. Overall hunters mark/hex in tier 2 are better and they are pretty weak as well in tier 2 and beyond. And heck hunters mark on a dual wield ranger build is better in tier one. And neither is weaker with a single attack build in tier one. 

The vast majority of level 1 spells do not perform at all in tier 2 and should not be expected to do so. You can tell hunter's mark is good because rangers are literally built around it.

Witch Bolt, isn't really that overpowered, I'd say Guiding Bolt is far more powerful at the same level 4d6 (~14) > 2d12 (~13) for the initial hit and then gives advantage on the next attack attack against it, with how things are in the early game, this is going to kill most things faster than waiting a full round for the next hit of damage.

Ice Knife against a couple of creatures can also do more damage than Witch Bolt ever sees, magic missile never misses so it's guaranteed damage... I would say Witch Bolt isn't that hot.

Now away from damage, there are other 1st level spells you'd want for later in the game, like Shield, Absorb Elements, Sleep, Silvery Barbs, etc. Witch Bolt is just a gimmick for a few levels and then replaced out with something more meaningful for a 1st level slot, probably around level 4~6.

Quote from Jurmondur >>

Quote from MyDudeicus >>

I still put it on the okay to weak side. Its only 1d12 continuing damage. It has obvious counters. It requires concentration. Its only one target. Overall hunters mark/hex in tier 2 are better and they are pretty weak as well in tier 2 and beyond. And heck hunters mark on a dual wield ranger build is better in tier one. And neither is weaker with a single attack build in tier one. 

The vast majority of level 1 spells do not perform at all in tier 2 and should not be expected to do so. You can tell hunter's mark is good because rangers are literally built around it.

 Great but you ignored everything else. It has plenty of reasons its not amazing in tier 1 as well. Its on the mid/weak side in tier 1.