Okay, the only argument that has been made is that you cannot cast a spell with a spellcasting focus unless it requires a material component. And that's based on nothing at all in the rules text.
So, naturally, I disagree with it. Nothing in the material component section requires that the spellcasting focus needs to be replacing a material component. It says it can do so. But it doesn't, ever, state that it MUST do so.
The artificer proves this to be true. They use a spellcasting focus to cast non material component spells as a matter of course. And guess what? Nothing in their rules text specifically gives them any additional non-M spellcasting access that other spellcasters are missing.
It isn't my fault that you guys all are wrong. And getting upset about it doesn't help anything.
Devil's advocate time: You all could easily prove me wrong if you could quote a rules text that either A) Says that you can only use a spellcasting focus on spells with material components. (Because the Arcane Focus just says you can use it on arcane spells in general and makes no such distinction) and B) Explain what specifically would then allow an Artificer to somehow skirt past that restriction despite the fact that nothing in the artificer spellcasting rules says to treat every spell as if it had a material component that their focus must replace. Which is, from what I can tell, what you have imagined, conjured up, to believe it says.
Absent that? Your ruling is self contradictory at best, or at worst it means you actually think an artificer can only cast half the artificer list.
What we know? The arcane focus gives us permission to channel spells through it and use it as a spellcasting focus. Check. That spellcasting rules the focus item specifically references tells us it can replace material components when used this way and ALSO that the same hand holding it can complete S components. Check.
So clearly it can. Which is obviously the right answer if you just stop and think about it. Of course a wizard can channel whatever spell they want through a magic wand like that. Of course that's the right answer.
Do you all also imagine when a wizard is using a Wand of the Warmage that they just limply hold the wand at their side while casting the spell with their other hand? C'mon. C'mon. You know that's not it. You KNOW it, deep down you have to know it.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I can't believe this thread has gotten almost 100 posts in 1 day (obviously I'm not going to read all that).
I already proved rules are relevant to their section last year (thus somatic components can only be performed with a focus if the spell requires a material/focus, per the spellcasting rules), and I'm not going to argue the same points I already proved over and over. If there was a solid counter to that point, please direct me to it. Otherwise, as far as I'm concerned discussion should still be settled.
They’re just going to keep quoting the description of an Arcane Focus at you and insisting that one line of the rules for M components means you can cast every spell with a focus. Don’t get sucked in. Save yourself.
They’re just going to keep quoting the description of an Arcane Focus at you and insisting that one line of the rules for M components means you can cast every spell with a focus. Don’t get sucked in. Save yourself.
Right. That exact thing is what I disproved last year 170+ posts ago. I will engage only if this point has been addressed, otherwise, as I said, the discussion is still settled.
They’re just going to keep quoting the description of an Arcane Focus at you and insisting that one line of the rules for M components means you can cast every spell with a focus. Don’t get sucked in. Save yourself.
Right. That exact thing is what I disproved last year 170+ posts ago. I will engage only if this point has been addressed, otherwise, as I said, the discussion is still settled.
They’re just going to keep quoting the description of an Arcane Focus at you and insisting that one line of the rules for M components means you can cast every spell with a focus. Don’t get sucked in. Save yourself.
Right. That exact thing is what I disproved last year 170+ posts ago. I will engage only if this point has been addressed, otherwise, as I said, the discussion is still settled.
This particular poster speaks as if they have not read or understood replies.
They’re just going to keep quoting the description of an Arcane Focus at you and insisting that one line of the rules for M components means you can cast every spell with a focus. Don’t get sucked in. Save yourself.
Right. That exact thing is what I disproved last year 170+ posts ago. I will engage only if this point has been addressed, otherwise, as I said, the discussion is still settled.
This particular poster speaks as if they have not read or understood replies.
Or logic, or reason. And insists we have provided no RAW proof contradicting their claims when we have quoted, and quoted, and quoted, and used analogies, and examples, and references, and Sage Advice, and a puppet show..... I think someone even tried School House Rock.
They’re just going to keep quoting the description of an Arcane Focus at you and insisting that one line of the rules for M components means you can cast every spell with a focus. Don’t get sucked in. Save yourself.
Right. That exact thing is what I disproved last year 170+ posts ago. I will engage only if this point has been addressed, otherwise, as I said, the discussion is still settled.
I'm done arguing why material component rules including the use of foci only apply to spells with material component. Even though the first sentence of the rule says it will only apply to "some spells" that specify it in the component entry. Or that it says a character can only use "a spellcasting focus in place of the components specified for a spell."
I dont like arguing. I only came here to help people understand the rules, not argue with people who dont want to be helped.
I will also not be arguing why a monk, pole arm master, or crossbow expert can apply their modifiers to the damage of their bonus action attack even though the rules specifically say "You don't add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative."
Nor will I argue why a multiclasses spellcaster/fighter can use action surge to cast 2 leveled spells even though the rules specifically say "You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action."
Because I have already said that rule context matters. If all rules apply all the time, these are the unnessessary interactions you create which lead to incorrect conclusions.
Just about everything DxJxC says is good, but in this it I doubt it will convince the unreachable. A!l we can do is to prevent new readers from being lead astray by people who don't understand the implications of what they say.
By the way, Rav, we are ignoring your argument because it has been refuted in the past. Artificer is an exception by its text compared to the general rules, and you KEEP parroting a sentence that describes a thing, rather than the rules on when you can use it, as the rules on when you can use it. Start actually refuting our arguments that have overcome yours instead, and someone here might stop thinking of you as what you are (a troll) and engage you again.
I will repeat this: you seem to have no concept of how the sentences in the book come together to form rules.
By the way, Rav, we are ignoring your argument because it has been refuted in the past.
My argument hasn't been refuted though. It has only been ignored. Willfully ignored.
Artificer is an exception by its text compared to the general rules, and you KEEP parroting a sentence that describes a thing, rather than the rules on when you can use it, as the rules on when you can use it. Start actually refuting our arguments that have overcome yours instead, and someone here might stop thinking of you as what you are (a troll) and engage you again.
The object itself tells you what you can do with it, and when you use the object, the rules for that object are relevant. <--- This is what every single one of you is pretending isn't true.
I will repeat this: you seem to have no concept of how the sentences in the book come together to form rules.
I understand how the rules work perfectly well enough.
Only rules are relevant when they are invoked. Obviously. You all are just completely ignoring the fact that when you channel a spell through an Arcane Focus, you ARE invoking the material component rules. (Because the item itself tells you to reference them)
No one has addressed this point because no one can refute that. Yall just stubborn.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
When one is surrounded by people and “Everyone else is wrong and stubborn!!!” one has to ask oneself: “Is everyone else wrong and stubborn, or is it just me?”
This text that I keep posting is being entirely ignored. I'm not sure why you want to have a discussion about rules while intentionally and willfully ignoring the actual text of the book.
An arcane focus is a special item designed to channel the power of arcane spells. A sorcerer, warlock, or wizard can use such an item as a spellcasting focus, as described in the Spellcasting section.
That says that an Arcane Focus CAN channel spells through it.
That says that sorcerer, warlock, or wizard CAN use it as a spellcasting focus.
That says to specifically reference the Spellcasting section. <--- The rules that you say aren't being referenced....
So, no. When you cast a Ray of Frost you do NOT reference the material component section of the book, because there is no cause to do so.
BUT if you cast Ray of Frost channeled through your Arcane Focus, you DO reference that section of the rules BECAUSE THE ITEM IN QUESTION TELLS YOU TO DO SO.
I can't for the life of me figure out why none of yall want to actually do what the item says to do. Lemme break it down, and parse out what the item says.
A sorcerer, warlock, or wizard can use such an item as a spellcasting focus, as described here: [A character can use a spellcasting focus (found in “Equipment”) in place of the components specified for a spell. A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components -- or to hold a spellcasting focus -- but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.]
The item itself specifically directs us to the rules you all say we're not directed to! Feels like I'm being gaslighted here. How do you all not see this?
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
When one is surrounded by people and “Everyone else is wrong and stubborn!!!” one has to ask oneself: “Is everyone else wrong and stubborn, or is it just me?”
Are you here to contribute or just sling insults and troll? Why are you here? Stay on topic.
This is what I mean though. I'm not dealing with people actually looking at the content of my post, just people casually being flippant and trolling. So if everyone isn't actually responding to the content of my post, then yeah, I have zero reason to consider you conspicuously absent actual contribution to the conversation, because there isn't one.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
When you break something down so simply that a child can understand, and then someone with a convoluted idea comes along and tries to confuse the child.
Just pointing out that I still have you blocked. I get notifications that you continue to post here, but cannot actually read what your writing, so my responses are based on what I guess you’re writing based on your previous posts.
I’m guessing that you just posted another quote of the same thing again. And I’m guessing that you wrote something about “the rules of the thing tell you how to use it blahblahblah.....” So I will just point out that The rules for Spells and Spellcasting tell you how/when you can use spells. Those rules include when you can or cannot use M components. The rules for M components tell you when you can or cannot use a Spellcasting Focus. Your starting from the wrong end of the chain of rules.
Okay, the only argument that has been made is that you cannot cast a spell with a spellcasting focus unless it requires a material component. And that's based on nothing at all in the rules text.
So, naturally, I disagree with it. Nothing in the material component section requires that the spellcasting focus needs to be replacing a material component. It says it can do so. But it doesn't, ever, state that it MUST do so.
The artificer proves this to be true. They use a spellcasting focus to cast non material component spells as a matter of course. And guess what? Nothing in their rules text specifically gives them any additional non-M spellcasting access that other spellcasters are missing.
It isn't my fault that you
guysall are wrong. And getting upset about it doesn't help anything.Devil's advocate time: You all could easily prove me wrong if you could quote a rules text that either A) Says that you can only use a spellcasting focus on spells with material components. (Because the Arcane Focus just says you can use it on arcane spells in general and makes no such distinction) and B) Explain what specifically would then allow an Artificer to somehow skirt past that restriction despite the fact that nothing in the artificer spellcasting rules says to treat every spell as if it had a material component that their focus must replace. Which is, from what I can tell, what you have imagined, conjured up, to believe it says.
Absent that? Your ruling is self contradictory at best, or at worst it means you actually think an artificer can only cast half the artificer list.
What we know? The arcane focus gives us permission to channel spells through it and use it as a spellcasting focus. Check. That spellcasting rules the focus item specifically references tells us it can replace material components when used this way and ALSO that the same hand holding it can complete S components. Check.
So clearly it can. Which is obviously the right answer if you just stop and think about it. Of course a wizard can channel whatever spell they want through a magic wand like that. Of course that's the right answer.
Do you all also imagine when a wizard is using a Wand of the Warmage that they just limply hold the wand at their side while casting the spell with their other hand? C'mon. C'mon. You know that's not it. You KNOW it, deep down you have to know it.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I can't believe this thread has gotten almost 100 posts in 1 day (obviously I'm not going to read all that).
I already proved rules are relevant to their section last year (thus somatic components can only be performed with a focus if the spell requires a material/focus, per the spellcasting rules), and I'm not going to argue the same points I already proved over and over. If there was a solid counter to that point, please direct me to it. Otherwise, as far as I'm concerned discussion should still be settled.
They’re just going to keep quoting the description of an Arcane Focus at you and insisting that one line of the rules for M components means you can cast every spell with a focus. Don’t get sucked in. Save yourself.
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Right. That exact thing is what I disproved last year 170+ posts ago. I will engage only if this point has been addressed, otherwise, as I said, the discussion is still settled.
Awesome, you got an exact post number on that?
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This particular poster speaks as if they have not read or understood replies.
Or logic, or reason. And insists we have provided no RAW proof contradicting their claims when we have quoted, and quoted, and quoted, and used analogies, and examples, and references, and Sage Advice, and a puppet show..... I think someone even tried School House Rock.
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67.
This one? Any others I should group with it?
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IDK, maybe. It was 6 months ago.
Just about everything DxJxC says is good, but in this it I doubt it will convince the unreachable. A!l we can do is to prevent new readers from being lead astray by people who don't understand the implications of what they say.
By the way, Rav, we are ignoring your argument because it has been refuted in the past. Artificer is an exception by its text compared to the general rules, and you KEEP parroting a sentence that describes a thing, rather than the rules on when you can use it, as the rules on when you can use it. Start actually refuting our arguments that have overcome yours instead, and someone here might stop thinking of you as what you are (a troll) and engage you again.
I will repeat this: you seem to have no concept of how the sentences in the book come together to form rules.
My argument hasn't been refuted though. It has only been ignored. Willfully ignored.
The object itself tells you what you can do with it, and when you use the object, the rules for that object are relevant. <--- This is what every single one of you is pretending isn't true.
I understand how the rules work perfectly well enough.
Only rules are relevant when they are invoked. Obviously. You all are just completely ignoring the fact that when you channel a spell through an Arcane Focus, you ARE invoking the material component rules. (Because the item itself tells you to reference them)
No one has addressed this point because no one can refute that. Yall just stubborn.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
"I understand how the rules work perfectly."
Not even the devs perfectly understand.
When one is surrounded by people and “Everyone else is wrong and stubborn!!!” one has to ask oneself: “Is everyone else wrong and stubborn, or is it just me?”
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This text that I keep posting is being entirely ignored. I'm not sure why you want to have a discussion about rules while intentionally and willfully ignoring the actual text of the book.
So, no. When you cast a Ray of Frost you do NOT reference the material component section of the book, because there is no cause to do so.
BUT if you cast Ray of Frost channeled through your Arcane Focus, you DO reference that section of the rules BECAUSE THE ITEM IN QUESTION TELLS YOU TO DO SO.
I can't for the life of me figure out why none of yall want to actually do what the item says to do. Lemme break it down, and parse out what the item says.
The item itself specifically directs us to the rules you all say we're not directed to! Feels like I'm being gaslighted here. How do you all not see this?
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Are you here to contribute or just sling insults and troll? Why are you here? Stay on topic.
This is what I mean though. I'm not dealing with people actually looking at the content of my post, just people casually being flippant and trolling. So if everyone isn't actually responding to the content of my post, then yeah, I have zero reason to consider you conspicuously absent actual contribution to the conversation, because there isn't one.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
When you break something down so simply that a child can understand, and then someone with a convoluted idea comes along and tries to confuse the child.
It has not been refuted to your satisfaction. Everyone else in the thread seems convinced.
Just pointing out that I still have you blocked. I get notifications that you continue to post here, but cannot actually read what your writing, so my responses are based on what I guess you’re writing based on your previous posts.
I’m guessing that you just posted another quote of the same thing again. And I’m guessing that you wrote something about “the rules of the thing tell you how to use it blahblahblah.....” So I will just point out that The rules for Spells and Spellcasting tell you how/when you can use spells. Those rules include when you can or cannot use M components. The rules for M components tell you when you can or cannot use a Spellcasting Focus. Your starting from the wrong end of the chain of rules.
That’s like getting poo and food mixed up.
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