But if the argument is that an object is only a spellcasting focus while it replaces a material component...
That isn't the argument. It's always a spellcasting focus, it just doesn't have any useful effect when the spell lacks a material component.
Of course there is no real benefit to doing it. LOL. But you CAN do it! I've only been arguing that you CAN do it. You CAN channel your Ray of Frost through your wand (arcane focus - spellcasting focus). That is 100% RAW.
By your own admission, having a requirement doesn't negate other requirements. Casting a spell requires that you use the component rules of that spell that you are casting.
Aha, of course. They “focused” on the wrong part. The point is that it is functionally useless unless the spell has an M component.
Now I’m guessing that you’ve made some comment about how the rules for a hammer do not include the be-all-and-end-all of what a hammer can do or how it can be used. Am I right? In which case, is it possible that the rules for an Arcane Focus don’t include the be-all-and-end-all of when an Arcane Focus can be used...?
If you really are guessing at Rav's responses then you have mastered the art of troll engagement.
I earned a Varsity letter on the debate team in high school. And I used to be a car salesman too. I’m fairly adept. And I had 12 pages of examples of their arguments from yesterday from which to base my guesses. Try it, it really isn’t that hard.
PS- Have they started to say they don’t know what I’m talking about and that I should just leave the conversation yet?
Of course there is no real benefit to doing it. LOL. But you CAN do it! I've only been arguing that you CAN do it. You CAN channel your Ray of Frost through your wand (arcane focus - spellcasting focus). That is 100% RAW.
Nope. The fact that it's a spellcasting focus does not permit you to channel spells through it unless the spell has a material component (side point: I consider this dumb and it isn't actually the way I run it in games, but I try to distinguish between what the rules are and what I think they should be).
Okay you lost me again. Why do you think it is a spellcasting focus and then also you can't channel your spells through it? The item itself says you can channel your arcane spells through it. Nothing in the referenced rules section disagrees with the item text.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Yalls whole case hinges on something that doesn't exist.
The item itself gives the requirements to use it.
...
Shield. A shield is made from wood or metal and is carried in one hand. Wielding a shield increases your Armor Class by 2. You can benefit from only one shield at a time.
This is an example proving you are wrong. think about it before you respond.
Are you trying to argue that the requirements to use an Arcane focus are NOT listed in the item's description? So you think any class can use it?
Do you know how classes know what they can and cannot use? Could you tell me what you think the answer to that question is?
Anyone can use a shield, friend. A wizard can use a shield. It provides the bonus listed if they do. Really not sure where you're going with any of this offtopic stuff or why everyone wants to keep dragging shields into this topic.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Having a requirement for something doesn't automatically allow you to bypass other requirements.
[My emphasis] If you actually thought this then your original argument couldn't possibly work. You are reasoning yourself into a circle.
How so? My reasoning seems consistent. You just follow the instructions of the rules text. When you cast a spell through an arcane focus, the item text directs you to the material component section. So you adhere to the rules text you are referenced to from the object you used. What about this is circular?
It is consistiently incorrect. You must provide the components of the spell, the spellcasting rule says that. As you said, one requirement (or option) does not negate other requirements. That has to mean that the spell dictates the components, not what you are holding.
This is going to be long and there is no way to really TLDR it, since most of this has been stated over the course of the discussion to no avail. If you truly are trying to figure out why we're saying that the Arcane Focus can't cast non M spells, then you'll read it. Otherwise, stop claiming that you are and move on since your arguments aren't convincing us. I tried to move on, but this keeps coming up in my notifications and I'd prefer not to have to unfollow the thing.
Components
A spell's components are the physical requirements you must meet in order to cast it. Each spell's description indicates whether it requires verbal (V), somatic (S), or material (M) components. If you can't provide one or more of a spell's components, you are unable to cast the spell.
Verbal (V)
Most spells require the chanting of mystic words. The words themselves aren't the source of the spell's power; rather, the particular combination of sounds, with specific pitch and resonance, sets the threads of magic in motion. Thus, a character who is gagged or in an area of silence, such as one created by the silence spell, can't cast a spell with a verbal component.
Somatic (S)
Spellcasting gestures might include a forceful gesticulation or an intricate set of gestures. If a spell requires a somatic component, the caster must have free use of at least one hand to perform these gestures.
Material (M)
Casting some spells requires particular objects, specified in parentheses in the component entry. A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in chapter 5, “Equipment”) in place of the components specified for a spell. But if a cost is indicated for a component, a character must have that specific component before he or she can cast the spell.
If a spell states that a material component is consumed by the spell, the caster must provide this component for each casting of the spell.
A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components — or to hold a spellcasting focus — but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.
First, what is the spellcasting focus replacing in the last line, it's the words right before "-or to hold a spellcasting focus-" which are "a spell's material components.
Second, "well that just can't be!" because of the underlined portion that says that a component pouch or a spellcasting focus can be used in place of the components specified for a spell. Surely that must also mean that the somatic components are included with that. Guess that also means that the verbal components are covered by that as well. As long as we're channeling the spell through our Arcane Focus, then we're good to go. No need for verbal components, somatic components, or material components unless there is a cost or the spell uses consumes the components. Good to know. Subtle Spell Metamagic is now useless. If I can hide my arcane focus behind my back or otherwise conceal it and channel my spells through it, there is absolutely no reason to take Subtle spell. Last I checked, that is a pretty big draw for Sorcerers. Last I checked, the Sorcerer was included in the list of spellcasters that can use an Arcane Focus. "But that's not what it is saying nor what I'm trying to say". Maybe not what you are trying to say, but that is what is being implied by what you are saying.
"An Arcane Focus isn't the same as a Holy Symbol!"
Arcane Focus. An arcane focus is a special item — an orb, a crystal, a rod, a specially constructed staff, a wand-like length of wood, or some similar item — designed to channel the power of arcane spells. A sorcerer, warlock, or wizard can use such an item as a spellcasting focus, as described in chapter 10.
Holy Symbol. A holy symbol is a representation of a god or pantheon. It might be an amulet depicting a symbol representing a deity, the same symbol carefully engraved or inlaid as an emblem on a shield, or a tiny box holding a fragment of a sacred relic. A cleric or paladin can use a holy symbol as a spellcasting focus, as described in chapter 10. To use the symbol in this way, the caster must hold it in hand, wear it visibly, or bear it on a shield.
You are right, the Holy Symbol is better than an Arcane Focus because it can be held in hand, worn visibly, or borne on a shield as opposed to just being held in hand. If the symbol is being borne on the shield, then the shield effectively becomes a spellcasting focus.
Components
Does a spell consume its material components?
A spell doesn’t consume its material components unless its description says it does. For example, the pearl required by the identify spell isn’t consumed, whereas the diamond required by raise dead is used up when you cast the spell.
If a spell’s material components are consumed, can a spellcasting focus still be used in place of the consumed component?
No. A spellcasting focus can be used in place of a material component only if that component has no cost noted in the spell’s description and if that component isn’t consumed.
What’s the amount of interaction needed to use a spellcasting focus? Does it have to be included in the somatic component?
If a spell has a material component, you need to handle that component when you cast the spell. The same rule applies if you’re using a spellcasting focus as the material component.
If a spell has a somatic component, you can use the hand that performs the somatic component to also handle the material component. For example, a wizard who uses an orb as a spellcasting focus could hold a quarterstaff in one hand and the orb in the other, and he could cast lightning bolt by using the orb as the spell’s material component and the orb hand to perform the spell’s somatic component.
Another example: a cleric’s holy symbol is emblazoned on her shield. She likes to wade into melee combat with a mace in one hand and a shield in the other. She uses the holy symbol as her spellcasting focus, so she needs to have the shield in hand when she casts a cleric spell that has a material component. If the spell, such as aid, also has a somatic component, she can perform that component with the shield hand and keep holding the mace in the other.
If the same cleric casts cure wounds, she needs to put the mace or the shield away, because that spell doesn’t have a material component but does have a somatic component. She’s going to need a free hand to make the spell’s gestures. If she had the War Caster feat, she could ignore this restriction.
Aid has components of V, S, and M. The example states that the cleric uses her holy symbol as her spellcasting focus. If is emblazoned on her shield. She is holding the shield in one hand and a mace in the other. She has no free hands. However, because her shield is effectively her spellcasting focus because the rules state that it can be when her holy symbol is borne on it, she has her spellcasting focus in her hand. It becomes the channel for the spell instead of the material components. Additionally, she waves her shield hand just so, invoking the somatic component (how that is the case is another discussion, but for the sake of simplicity, lets say its something simple like a cross, star pattern, rude gesture, or other simple action). That is the part that has been invoked ad nauseum to this point by everyone in the Buzz Lightyear camp (CAN!).
However, when the same Cleric, who has a more versatile spellcasting focus than an Arcane Focus, tries to cast Cure Wounds, she suddenly can't do so without putting away either her mace or her shield. It's not just the mace, which would make sense if she had to touch the shield to channel the spell through it. It's either one. If it was a simple matter of waving her spellcasting focus because the material components let her, then this would be a moot point and would not be mentioned at all. She can't just wave her shield around, she needs a free hand to do the somatic components. And if her spellcasting focus is more versatile than the Arcane Focus, then the Arcane Focus would follow the same rules. In this instance, it is essentially a stick and it cost you 5 gp.
BUT THE POOR ARTIFICER! As Davedamon mentioned, specific rules beat general rules. They MUST have a spellcasting focus (which isn't even something that is normally a spellcasting focus, it's artisan's tools or Thieves' Tools. Can your sorcerer use those? No.). If they must use the focus, and they have non M spells on their list, then it stands to reason that they must use their tools to cast their spells.
If you do think that because the Artificer can do it that everyone can do it, then there is no such thing as classes since everyone can now do everything. Also, I can spend your money because you can spend your money. You can't spend my money, because I can't even spend my money.
Now I’m guessing that you’ve made some comment about how the rules for a hammer do not include the be-all-and-end-all of what a hammer can do or how it can be used. Am I right? In which case, is it possible that the rules for an Arcane Focus don’t include the be-all-and-end-all of when an Arcane Focus can be used...?
Not really, I pointed to the language used. The hammer uses non-exclusive language while the arcane focus uses exclusionary language. One is offering a suggestion of a possible use, while the other is providing a restriction on who can use it. You honestly only need to read the text itself and then comprehend the words and you should be a-ok.
Like, I wouldn't ever say you couldn't use an arcane Focus for other things. You could roll an orb down a hill or chuck it at a guards head as an improvised weapon. But, when it comes to what the text says, that is non-negotiable. It can be used by a sorcerer, warlock, or wizard as a spellcasting focus... and it can channel arcane spells. That's absolute. Written right there on the page. RAW.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Okay you lost me again. Why do you think it is a spellcasting focus and then also you can't channel your spells through it? The item itself says you can channel your arcane spells through it. Nothing in the referenced rules section disagrees with the item text.
'Can channel your arcane spells through it' means 'Can use it as a spellcasting focus'. This has no mechanical effect if the spell does not have a material component.
Yalls whole case hinges on something that doesn't exist.
The item itself gives the requirements to use it.
...
Shield. A shield is made from wood or metal and is carried in one hand. Wielding a shield increases your Armor Class by 2. You can benefit from only one shield at a time.
This is an example proving you are wrong. think about it before you respond.
Are you trying to argue that the requirements to use an Arcane focus are NOT listed in the item's description? So you think any class can use it?
Do you know how classes know what they can and cannot use? Could you tell me what you think the answer to that question is?
Anyone can use a shield, friend. A wizard can use a shield. It provides the bonus listed if they do. Really not sure where you're going with any of this offtopic stuff or why everyone wants to keep dragging shields into this topic.
This post shows you have no business contributing to this thread.
This is going to be long and there is no way to really TLDR it, since most of this has been stated over the course of the discussion to no avail. If you truly are trying to figure out why we're saying that the Arcane Focus can't cast non M spells, then you'll read it. Otherwise, stop claiming that you are and move on since your arguments aren't convincing us. I tried to move on, but this keeps coming up in my notifications and I'd prefer not to have to unfollow the thing.
Components
A spell's components are the physical requirements you must meet in order to cast it. Each spell's description indicates whether it requires verbal (V), somatic (S), or material (M) components. If you can't provide one or more of a spell's components, you are unable to cast the spell.
Verbal (V)
Most spells require the chanting of mystic words. The words themselves aren't the source of the spell's power; rather, the particular combination of sounds, with specific pitch and resonance, sets the threads of magic in motion. Thus, a character who is gagged or in an area of silence, such as one created by the silence spell, can't cast a spell with a verbal component.
Somatic (S)
Spellcasting gestures might include a forceful gesticulation or an intricate set of gestures. If a spell requires a somatic component, the caster must have free use of at least one hand to perform these gestures.
Material (M)
Casting some spells requires particular objects, specified in parentheses in the component entry. A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in chapter 5, “Equipment”) in place of the components specified for a spell. But if a cost is indicated for a component, a character must have that specific component before he or she can cast the spell.
If a spell states that a material component is consumed by the spell, the caster must provide this component for each casting of the spell.
A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components — or to hold a spellcasting focus — but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.
First, what is the spellcasting focus replacing in the last line, it's the words right before "-or to hold a spellcasting focus-" which are "a spell's material components.
Second, "well that just can't be!" because of the underlined portion that says that a component pouch or a spellcasting focus can be used in place of the components specified for a spell. Surely that must also mean that the somatic components are included with that. Guess that also means that the verbal components are covered by that as well. As long as we're channeling the spell through our Arcane Focus, then we're good to go. No need for verbal components, somatic components, or material components unless there is a cost or the spell uses consumes the components. Good to know. Subtle Spell Metamagic is now useless. If I can hide my arcane focus behind my back or otherwise conceal it and channel my spells through it, there is absolutely no reason to take Subtle spell. Last I checked, that is a pretty big draw for Sorcerers. Last I checked, the Sorcerer was included in the list of spellcasters that can use an Arcane Focus. "But that's not what it is saying nor what I'm trying to say". Maybe not what you are trying to say, but that is what is being implied by what you are saying.
"An Arcane Focus isn't the same as a Holy Symbol!"
Arcane Focus. An arcane focus is a special item — an orb, a crystal, a rod, a specially constructed staff, a wand-like length of wood, or some similar item — designed to channel the power of arcane spells. A sorcerer, warlock, or wizard can use such an item as a spellcasting focus, as described in chapter 10.
Holy Symbol. A holy symbol is a representation of a god or pantheon. It might be an amulet depicting a symbol representing a deity, the same symbol carefully engraved or inlaid as an emblem on a shield, or a tiny box holding a fragment of a sacred relic. A cleric or paladin can use a holy symbol as a spellcasting focus, as described in chapter 10. To use the symbol in this way, the caster must hold it in hand, wear it visibly, or bear it on a shield.
You are right, the Holy Symbol is better than an Arcane Focus because it can be held in hand, worn visibly, or borne on a shield as opposed to just being held in hand. If the symbol is being borne on the shield, then the shield effectively becomes a spellcasting focus.
Components
Does a spell consume its material components?
A spell doesn’t consume its material components unless its description says it does. For example, the pearl required by the identify spell isn’t consumed, whereas the diamond required by raise dead is used up when you cast the spell.
If a spell’s material components are consumed, can a spellcasting focus still be used in place of the consumed component?
No. A spellcasting focus can be used in place of a material component only if that component has no cost noted in the spell’s description and if that component isn’t consumed.
What’s the amount of interaction needed to use a spellcasting focus? Does it have to be included in the somatic component?
If a spell has a material component, you need to handle that component when you cast the spell. The same rule applies if you’re using a spellcasting focus as the material component.
If a spell has a somatic component, you can use the hand that performs the somatic component to also handle the material component. For example, a wizard who uses an orb as a spellcasting focus could hold a quarterstaff in one hand and the orb in the other, and he could cast lightning bolt by using the orb as the spell’s material component and the orb hand to perform the spell’s somatic component.
Another example: a cleric’s holy symbol is emblazoned on her shield. She likes to wade into melee combat with a mace in one hand and a shield in the other. She uses the holy symbol as her spellcasting focus, so she needs to have the shield in hand when she casts a cleric spell that has a material component. If the spell, such as aid, also has a somatic component, she can perform that component with the shield hand and keep holding the mace in the other.
If the same cleric casts cure wounds, she needs to put the mace or the shield away, because that spell doesn’t have a material component but does have a somatic component. She’s going to need a free hand to make the spell’s gestures. If she had the War Caster feat, she could ignore this restriction.
Aid has components of V, S, and M. The example states that the cleric uses her holy symbol as her spellcasting focus. If is emblazoned on her shield. She is holding the shield in one hand and a mace in the other. She has no free hands. However, because her shield is effectively her spellcasting focus because the rules state that it can be when her holy symbol is borne on it, she has her spellcasting focus in her hand. It becomes the channel for the spell instead of the material components. Additionally, she waves her shield hand just so, invoking the somatic component (how that is the case is another discussion, but for the sake of simplicity, lets say its something simple like a cross, star pattern, rude gesture, or other simple action). That is the part that has been invoked ad nauseum to this point by everyone in the Buzz Lightyear camp (CAN!).
However, when the same Cleric, who has a more versatile spellcasting focus than an Arcane Focus, tries to cast Cure Wounds, she suddenly can't do so without putting away either her mace or her shield. It's not just the mace, which would make sense if she had to touch the shield to channel the spell through it. It's either one. If it was a simple matter of waving her spellcasting focus because the material components let her, then this would be a moot point and would not be mentioned at all. She can't just wave her shield around, she needs a free hand to do the somatic components. And if her spellcasting focus is more versatile than the Arcane Focus, then the Arcane Focus would follow the same rules. In this instance, it is essentially a stick and it cost you 5 gp.
BUT THE POOR ARTIFICER! As Davedamon mentioned, specific rules beat general rules. They MUST have a spellcasting focus (which isn't even something that is normally a spellcasting focus, it's artisan's tools or Thieves' Tools. Can your sorcerer use those? No.). If they must use the focus, and they have non M spells on their list, then it stands to reason that they must use their tools to cast their spells.
If you do think that because the Artificer can do it that everyone can do it, then there is no such thing as classes since everyone can now do everything. Also, I can spend your money because you can spend your money. You can't spend my money, because I can't even spend my money.
Jhffan puts forward a complete, no-shit explanation with quotes, Ravnodaus.
However, I will point out that your inability to argue against yourself is, no-shits, proof that you don't understand. Not sugar coating it. Go relax, come back, try to understand the opposition again, and when you DO see it clearly, THEN you can argue against it. Instead, you're just shouting at the top of your lungs how you see the elephant from your point of view, which is a valid point of view, but it is incapable of discerning the truth.
Yalls whole case hinges on something that doesn't exist.
The item itself gives the requirements to use it.
...
Shield. A shield is made from wood or metal and is carried in one hand. Wielding a shield increases your Armor Class by 2. You can benefit from only one shield at a time.
This is an example proving you are wrong. think about it before you respond.
Are you trying to argue that the requirements to use an Arcane focus are NOT listed in the item's description? So you think any class can use it?
Do you know how classes know what they can and cannot use? Could you tell me what you think the answer to that question is?
Anyone can use a shield, friend. A wizard can use a shield. It provides the bonus listed if they do. Really not sure where you're going with any of this offtopic stuff or why everyone wants to keep dragging shields into this topic.
This post shows you have no business contributing to this thread.
Actually, they're not wrong there.
Armor Proficiency.
Anyone can put on a suit of armor or strap a shield to an arm. Only those proficient in the armor's use know how to wear it effectively, however. Your class gives you proficiency with certain types of armor. If you wear armor that you lack proficiency with, you have disadvantage on any ability check, saving throw, or attack roll that involves Strength or Dexterity, and you can't cast spells.
This is going to be long and there is no way to really TLDR it, since most of this has been stated over the course of the discussion to no avail. If you truly are trying to figure out why we're saying that the Arcane Focus can't cast non M spells, then you'll read it. Otherwise, stop claiming that you are and move on since your arguments aren't convincing us. I tried to move on, but this keeps coming up in my notifications and I'd prefer not to have to unfollow the thing.
Components
A spell's components are the physical requirements you must meet in order to cast it. Each spell's description indicates whether it requires verbal (V), somatic (S), or material (M) components. If you can't provide one or more of a spell's components, you are unable to cast the spell.
Verbal (V)
Most spells require the chanting of mystic words. The words themselves aren't the source of the spell's power; rather, the particular combination of sounds, with specific pitch and resonance, sets the threads of magic in motion. Thus, a character who is gagged or in an area of silence, such as one created by the silence spell, can't cast a spell with a verbal component.
Somatic (S)
Spellcasting gestures might include a forceful gesticulation or an intricate set of gestures. If a spell requires a somatic component, the caster must have free use of at least one hand to perform these gestures.
Material (M)
Casting some spells requires particular objects, specified in parentheses in the component entry. A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in chapter 5, “Equipment”) in place of the components specified for a spell. But if a cost is indicated for a component, a character must have that specific component before he or she can cast the spell.
If a spell states that a material component is consumed by the spell, the caster must provide this component for each casting of the spell.
A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components — or to hold a spellcasting focus — but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.
First, what is the spellcasting focus replacing in the last line, it's the words right before "-or to hold a spellcasting focus-" which are "a spell's material components.
Second, "well that just can't be!" because of the underlined portion that says that a component pouch or a spellcasting focus can be used in place of the components specified for a spell. Surely that must also mean that the somatic components are included with that. Guess that also means that the verbal components are covered by that as well. As long as we're channeling the spell through our Arcane Focus, then we're good to go. No need for verbal components, somatic components, or material components unless there is a cost or the spell uses consumes the components. Good to know. Subtle Spell Metamagic is now useless. If I can hide my arcane focus behind my back or otherwise conceal it and channel my spells through it, there is absolutely no reason to take Subtle spell. Last I checked, that is a pretty big draw for Sorcerers. Last I checked, the Sorcerer was included in the list of spellcasters that can use an Arcane Focus. "But that's not what it is saying nor what I'm trying to say". Maybe not what you are trying to say, but that is what is being implied by what you are saying.
"An Arcane Focus isn't the same as a Holy Symbol!"
Arcane Focus. An arcane focus is a special item — an orb, a crystal, a rod, a specially constructed staff, a wand-like length of wood, or some similar item — designed to channel the power of arcane spells. A sorcerer, warlock, or wizard can use such an item as a spellcasting focus, as described in chapter 10.
Holy Symbol. A holy symbol is a representation of a god or pantheon. It might be an amulet depicting a symbol representing a deity, the same symbol carefully engraved or inlaid as an emblem on a shield, or a tiny box holding a fragment of a sacred relic. A cleric or paladin can use a holy symbol as a spellcasting focus, as described in chapter 10. To use the symbol in this way, the caster must hold it in hand, wear it visibly, or bear it on a shield.
You are right, the Holy Symbol is better than an Arcane Focus because it can be held in hand, worn visibly, or borne on a shield as opposed to just being held in hand. If the symbol is being borne on the shield, then the shield effectively becomes a spellcasting focus.
Components
Does a spell consume its material components?
A spell doesn’t consume its material components unless its description says it does. For example, the pearl required by the identify spell isn’t consumed, whereas the diamond required by raise dead is used up when you cast the spell.
If a spell’s material components are consumed, can a spellcasting focus still be used in place of the consumed component?
No. A spellcasting focus can be used in place of a material component only if that component has no cost noted in the spell’s description and if that component isn’t consumed.
What’s the amount of interaction needed to use a spellcasting focus? Does it have to be included in the somatic component?
If a spell has a material component, you need to handle that component when you cast the spell. The same rule applies if you’re using a spellcasting focus as the material component.
If a spell has a somatic component, you can use the hand that performs the somatic component to also handle the material component. For example, a wizard who uses an orb as a spellcasting focus could hold a quarterstaff in one hand and the orb in the other, and he could cast lightning bolt by using the orb as the spell’s material component and the orb hand to perform the spell’s somatic component.
Another example: a cleric’s holy symbol is emblazoned on her shield. She likes to wade into melee combat with a mace in one hand and a shield in the other. She uses the holy symbol as her spellcasting focus, so she needs to have the shield in hand when she casts a cleric spell that has a material component. If the spell, such as aid, also has a somatic component, she can perform that component with the shield hand and keep holding the mace in the other.
If the same cleric casts cure wounds, she needs to put the mace or the shield away, because that spell doesn’t have a material component but does have a somatic component. She’s going to need a free hand to make the spell’s gestures. If she had the War Caster feat, she could ignore this restriction.
Aid has components of V, S, and M. The example states that the cleric uses her holy symbol as her spellcasting focus. If is emblazoned on her shield. She is holding the shield in one hand and a mace in the other. She has no free hands. However, because her shield is effectively her spellcasting focus because the rules state that it can be when her holy symbol is borne on it, she has her spellcasting focus in her hand. It becomes the channel for the spell instead of the material components. Additionally, she waves her shield hand just so, invoking the somatic component (how that is the case is another discussion, but for the sake of simplicity, lets say its something simple like a cross, star pattern, rude gesture, or other simple action). That is the part that has been invoked ad nauseum to this point by everyone in the Buzz Lightyear camp (CAN!).
However, when the same Cleric, who has a more versatile spellcasting focus than an Arcane Focus, tries to cast Cure Wounds, she suddenly can't do so without putting away either her mace or her shield. It's not just the mace, which would make sense if she had to touch the shield to channel the spell through it. It's either one. If it was a simple matter of waving her spellcasting focus because the material components let her, then this would be a moot point and would not be mentioned at all. She can't just wave her shield around, she needs a free hand to do the somatic components. And if her spellcasting focus is more versatile than the Arcane Focus, then the Arcane Focus would follow the same rules. In this instance, it is essentially a stick and it cost you 5 gp.
BUT THE POOR ARTIFICER! As Davedamon mentioned, specific rules beat general rules. They MUST have a spellcasting focus (which isn't even something that is normally a spellcasting focus, it's artisan's tools or Thieves' Tools. Can your sorcerer use those? No.). If they must use the focus, and they have non M spells on their list, then it stands to reason that they must use their tools to cast their spells.
If you do think that because the Artificer can do it that everyone can do it, then there is no such thing as classes since everyone can now do everything. Also, I can spend your money because you can spend your money. You can't spend my money, because I can't even spend my money.
Yalls whole case hinges on something that doesn't exist.
The item itself gives the requirements to use it.
...
Shield. A shield is made from wood or metal and is carried in one hand. Wielding a shield increases your Armor Class by 2. You can benefit from only one shield at a time.
This is an example proving you are wrong. think about it before you respond.
Are you trying to argue that the requirements to use an Arcane focus are NOT listed in the item's description? So you think any class can use it?
Do you know how classes know what they can and cannot use? Could you tell me what you think the answer to that question is?
Anyone can use a shield, friend. A wizard can use a shield. It provides the bonus listed if they do. Really not sure where you're going with any of this offtopic stuff or why everyone wants to keep dragging shields into this topic.
This post shows you have no business contributing to this thread.
Anyone can put on a suit of armor or strap a shield to an arm. Only those proficient in the armor's use know how to wear it effectively, however. Your class gives you proficiency with certain types of armor. If you wear armor that you lack proficiency with, you have disadvantage on any ability check, saving throw, or attack roll that involves Strength or Dexterity, and you can't cast spells.
Did need me to say "effectively" in there? Because a wizard that can't cast spells and has disadvantage on all of its dagger attacks is a pretty piss poor facsimile of a wizard. And he hasn't shown that he knows what text tells you which classes can effectively use shields.
Yalls whole case hinges on something that doesn't exist.
The item itself gives the requirements to use it.
...
Shield. A shield is made from wood or metal and is carried in one hand. Wielding a shield increases your Armor Class by 2. You can benefit from only one shield at a time.
This is an example proving you are wrong. think about it before you respond.
Are you trying to argue that the requirements to use an Arcane focus are NOT listed in the item's description? So you think any class can use it?
Do you know how classes know what they can and cannot use? Could you tell me what you think the answer to that question is?
Anyone can use a shield, friend. A wizard can use a shield. It provides the bonus listed if they do. Really not sure where you're going with any of this offtopic stuff or why everyone wants to keep dragging shields into this topic.
This post shows you have no business contributing to this thread.
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Anyone CAN use a shield to get +2 AC though. Anyone... rofl. You two are so eager to get a gotcha moment that you forget basic stuff like that?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Who cares about effectiveness? If the wizard wants to pick up a shield to protect their self, (s)he can do that. Its not hard to imagine a situation where a low-level wizard would want to do that.
Yalls whole case hinges on something that doesn't exist.
The item itself gives the requirements to use it.
...
Shield. A shield is made from wood or metal and is carried in one hand. Wielding a shield increases your Armor Class by 2. You can benefit from only one shield at a time.
This is an example proving you are wrong. think about it before you respond.
Are you trying to argue that the requirements to use an Arcane focus are NOT listed in the item's description? So you think any class can use it?
Do you know how classes know what they can and cannot use? Could you tell me what you think the answer to that question is?
Anyone can use a shield, friend. A wizard can use a shield. It provides the bonus listed if they do. Really not sure where you're going with any of this offtopic stuff or why everyone wants to keep dragging shields into this topic.
This post shows you have no business contributing to this thread.
Actually, they're not wrong there.
Armor Proficiency.
Anyone can put on a suit of armor or strap a shield to an arm. Only those proficient in the armor's use know how to wear it effectively, however. Your class gives you proficiency with certain types of armor. If you wear armor that you lack proficiency with, you have disadvantage on any ability check, saving throw, or attack roll that involves Strength or Dexterity, and you can't cast spells.
Did need me to say "effectively" in there? Because a wizard that can't cast spells and has disadvantage on all of its dagger attacks is a pretty piss poor facsimile of a wizard.
This is true. The distinction is merited and I don't want them feeling like I'm trying to be unreasonable, though. Since they are arguing that something can be done and we're arguing that it can't be done, it doesn't help to leave that loophole open.
Who cares about effectiveness? If the wizard wants to pick up a shield to protect their self, (s)he can do that. Its not hard to imagine a situation where a low-level wizard would want to do that.
Okay, but then that still holds true for an Arcane Focus with spells that have no M components. You can perform somatic components with the focus in your hand but cannot effectively cast the spell.
This is going to be long and there is no way to really TLDR it, since most of this has been stated over the course of the discussion to no avail. If you truly are trying to figure out why we're saying that the Arcane Focus can't cast non M spells, then you'll read it. Otherwise, stop claiming that you are and move on since your arguments aren't convincing us. I tried to move on, but this keeps coming up in my notifications and I'd prefer not to have to unfollow the thing.
Components
A spell's components are the physical requirements you must meet in order to cast it. Each spell's description indicates whether it requires verbal (V), somatic (S), or material (M) components. If you can't provide one or more of a spell's components, you are unable to cast the spell.
Verbal (V)
Most spells require the chanting of mystic words. The words themselves aren't the source of the spell's power; rather, the particular combination of sounds, with specific pitch and resonance, sets the threads of magic in motion. Thus, a character who is gagged or in an area of silence, such as one created by the silence spell, can't cast a spell with a verbal component.
Somatic (S)
Spellcasting gestures might include a forceful gesticulation or an intricate set of gestures. If a spell requires a somatic component, the caster must have free use of at least one hand to perform these gestures.
Material (M)
Casting some spells requires particular objects, specified in parentheses in the component entry. A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in chapter 5, “Equipment”) in place of the components specified for a spell. But if a cost is indicated for a component, a character must have that specific component before he or she can cast the spell.
If a spell states that a material component is consumed by the spell, the caster must provide this component for each casting of the spell.
A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components — or to hold a spellcasting focus — but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.
First, what is the spellcasting focus replacing in the last line, it's the words right before "-or to hold a spellcasting focus-" which are "a spell's material components.
Second, "well that just can't be!" because of the underlined portion that says that a component pouch or a spellcasting focus can be used in place of the components specified for a spell. Surely that must also mean that the somatic components are included with that. Guess that also means that the verbal components are covered by that as well. As long as we're channeling the spell through our Arcane Focus, then we're good to go. No need for verbal components, somatic components, or material components unless there is a cost or the spell uses consumes the components. Good to know. Subtle Spell Metamagic is now useless. If I can hide my arcane focus behind my back or otherwise conceal it and channel my spells through it, there is absolutely no reason to take Subtle spell. Last I checked, that is a pretty big draw for Sorcerers. Last I checked, the Sorcerer was included in the list of spellcasters that can use an Arcane Focus. "But that's not what it is saying nor what I'm trying to say". Maybe not what you are trying to say, but that is what is being implied by what you are saying.
That is not at all being implied by what I'm saying. Not even sure how you come to that idea. I've never suggested anything like that.
I'm reading everything people are saying and offering rebuttals, repeatedly sometimes. But by rebuttals are not being addressed. You're reiterated you same points again that I've already rebutted and just ignored the rebuttal. I'll try again...
"An Arcane Focus isn't the same as a Holy Symbol!"
Arcane Focus. An arcane focus is a special item — an orb, a crystal, a rod, a specially constructed staff, a wand-like length of wood, or some similar item — designed to channel the power of arcane spells. A sorcerer, warlock, or wizard can use such an item as a spellcasting focus, as described in chapter 10.
Holy Symbol. A holy symbol is a representation of a god or pantheon. It might be an amulet depicting a symbol representing a deity, the same symbol carefully engraved or inlaid as an emblem on a shield, or a tiny box holding a fragment of a sacred relic. A cleric or paladin can use a holy symbol as a spellcasting focus, as described in chapter 10. To use the symbol in this way, the caster must hold it in hand, wear it visibly, or bear it on a shield.
You are right, the Holy Symbol is better than an Arcane Focus because it can be held in hand, worn visibly, or borne on a shield as opposed to just being held in hand. If the symbol is being borne on the shield, then the shield effectively becomes a spellcasting focus.
No to that bolded bit. That's just not true. Having a holy symbol on something doesn't make that thing a spellcasting focus, and nothing says that it does. This is another weird invention. The text there clearly says that the holy symbol itself is the spellcasting focus. This obsession with shields in this thread is so weird.
Components
Does a spell consume its material components?
A spell doesn’t consume its material components unless its description says it does. For example, the pearl required by the identify spell isn’t consumed, whereas the diamond required by raise dead is used up when you cast the spell.
If a spell’s material components are consumed, can a spellcasting focus still be used in place of the consumed component?
No. A spellcasting focus can be used in place of a material component only if that component has no cost noted in the spell’s description and if that component isn’t consumed.
What’s the amount of interaction needed to use a spellcasting focus? Does it have to be included in the somatic component?
If a spell has a material component, you need to handle that component when you cast the spell. The same rule applies if you’re using a spellcasting focus as the material component.
If a spell has a somatic component, you can use the hand that performs the somatic component to also handle the material component. For example, a wizard who uses an orb as a spellcasting focus could hold a quarterstaff in one hand and the orb in the other, and he could cast lightning bolt by using the orb as the spell’s material component and the orb hand to perform the spell’s somatic component.
Another example: a cleric’s holy symbol is emblazoned on her shield. She likes to wade into melee combat with a mace in one hand and a shield in the other. She uses the holy symbol as her spellcasting focus, so she needs to have the shield in hand when she casts a cleric spell that has a material component. If the spell, such as aid, also has a somatic component, she can perform that component with the shield hand and keep holding the mace in the other.
If the same cleric casts cure wounds, she needs to put the mace or the shield away, because that spell doesn’t have a material component but does have a somatic component. She’s going to need a free hand to make the spell’s gestures. If she had the War Caster feat, she could ignore this restriction.
Aid has components of V, S, and M. The example states that the cleric uses her holy symbol as her spellcasting focus. If is emblazoned on her shield. She is holding the shield in one hand and a mace in the other. She has no free hands. However, because her shield is effectively her spellcasting focus because the rules state that it can be when her holy symbol is borne on it, she has her spellcasting focus in her hand. It becomes the channel for the spell instead of the material components. Additionally, she waves her shield hand just so, invoking the somatic component (how that is the case is another discussion, but for the sake of simplicity, lets say its something simple like a cross, star pattern, rude gesture, or other simple action). That is the part that has been invoked ad nauseum to this point by everyone in the Buzz Lightyear camp (CAN!).
However, when the same Cleric, who has a more versatile spellcasting focus than an Arcane Focus, tries to cast Cure Wounds, she suddenly can't do so without putting away either her mace or her shield. It's not just the mace, which would make sense if she had to touch the shield to channel the spell through it. It's either one. If it was a simple matter of waving her spellcasting focus because the material components let her, then this would be a moot point and would not be mentioned at all. She can't just wave her shield around, she needs a free hand to do the somatic components. And if her spellcasting focus is more versatile than the Arcane Focus, then the Arcane Focus would follow the same rules. In this instance, it is essentially a stick and it cost you 5 gp.
The cleric in this example is wielding a shield with their hand, not a spellcasting focus. This normally prevents using that hand for spellcasting, obviously. The whole purpose of this example seems to be to explain that they intended for the shield to still be usable for S components in some cases, but the book didn't properly explain it, so they do here. That's the whole purpose of the sage advice, yeah? Explaining things the book didn't.
BUT THE POOR ARTIFICER! As Davedamon mentioned, specific rules beat general rules. They MUST have a spellcasting focus (which isn't even something that is normally a spellcasting focus, it's artisan's tools or Thieves' Tools. Can your sorcerer use those? No.). If they must use the focus, and they have non M spells on their list, then it stands to reason that they must use their tools to cast their spells.
If you do think that because the Artificer can do it that everyone can do it, then there is no such thing as classes since everyone can now do everything.
And this makes even less sense. To that bolded bit: It does stand to reason that they can use a spellcasting focus to cast non M spell, yeah. But you've been arguing this whole time that they CANNOT do exactly that. So it stands to reason you're wrong about being unable to cast non-M spells with a spellcasting focus.
And nothing in their entry tells us that they can. Really, read it again if you must but nothing at all in the Artificer spellcasting section gives them some special permission to do what you seem to say that they and they alone can do. So if it isn't a default ability that anyone can do, then they can't either. Because again, while they are required to do it in general, nothing actually lets them do it for specifically non M spells.
I'm all for classes having unique abilities, but they actually need to be written on the page, with, like, words.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
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Aha, of course. They “focused” on the wrong part. The point is that it is functionally useless unless the spell has an M component.
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I earned a Varsity letter on the debate team in high school. And I used to be a car salesman too. I’m fairly adept. And I had 12 pages of examples of their arguments from yesterday from which to base my guesses. Try it, it really isn’t that hard.
PS- Have they started to say they don’t know what I’m talking about and that I should just leave the conversation yet?
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Okay you lost me again. Why do you think it is a spellcasting focus and then also you can't channel your spells through it? The item itself says you can channel your arcane spells through it. Nothing in the referenced rules section disagrees with the item text.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Anyone can use a shield, friend. A wizard can use a shield. It provides the bonus listed if they do. Really not sure where you're going with any of this offtopic stuff or why everyone wants to keep dragging shields into this topic.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
It is consistiently incorrect. You must provide the components of the spell, the spellcasting rule says that. As you said, one requirement (or option) does not negate other requirements. That has to mean that the spell dictates the components, not what you are holding.
This is going to be long and there is no way to really TLDR it, since most of this has been stated over the course of the discussion to no avail. If you truly are trying to figure out why we're saying that the Arcane Focus can't cast non M spells, then you'll read it. Otherwise, stop claiming that you are and move on since your arguments aren't convincing us. I tried to move on, but this keeps coming up in my notifications and I'd prefer not to have to unfollow the thing.
First, what is the spellcasting focus replacing in the last line, it's the words right before "-or to hold a spellcasting focus-" which are "a spell's material components.
Second, "well that just can't be!" because of the underlined portion that says that a component pouch or a spellcasting focus can be used in place of the components specified for a spell. Surely that must also mean that the somatic components are included with that. Guess that also means that the verbal components are covered by that as well. As long as we're channeling the spell through our Arcane Focus, then we're good to go. No need for verbal components, somatic components, or material components unless there is a cost or the spell uses consumes the components. Good to know. Subtle Spell Metamagic is now useless. If I can hide my arcane focus behind my back or otherwise conceal it and channel my spells through it, there is absolutely no reason to take Subtle spell. Last I checked, that is a pretty big draw for Sorcerers. Last I checked, the Sorcerer was included in the list of spellcasters that can use an Arcane Focus. "But that's not what it is saying nor what I'm trying to say". Maybe not what you are trying to say, but that is what is being implied by what you are saying.
"An Arcane Focus isn't the same as a Holy Symbol!"
You are right, the Holy Symbol is better than an Arcane Focus because it can be held in hand, worn visibly, or borne on a shield as opposed to just being held in hand. If the symbol is being borne on the shield, then the shield effectively becomes a spellcasting focus.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/sac/sage-advice-compendium#Spellcasting
Aid has components of V, S, and M. The example states that the cleric uses her holy symbol as her spellcasting focus. If is emblazoned on her shield. She is holding the shield in one hand and a mace in the other. She has no free hands. However, because her shield is effectively her spellcasting focus because the rules state that it can be when her holy symbol is borne on it, she has her spellcasting focus in her hand. It becomes the channel for the spell instead of the material components. Additionally, she waves her shield hand just so, invoking the somatic component (how that is the case is another discussion, but for the sake of simplicity, lets say its something simple like a cross, star pattern, rude gesture, or other simple action). That is the part that has been invoked ad nauseum to this point by everyone in the Buzz Lightyear camp (CAN!).
However, when the same Cleric, who has a more versatile spellcasting focus than an Arcane Focus, tries to cast Cure Wounds, she suddenly can't do so without putting away either her mace or her shield. It's not just the mace, which would make sense if she had to touch the shield to channel the spell through it. It's either one. If it was a simple matter of waving her spellcasting focus because the material components let her, then this would be a moot point and would not be mentioned at all. She can't just wave her shield around, she needs a free hand to do the somatic components. And if her spellcasting focus is more versatile than the Arcane Focus, then the Arcane Focus would follow the same rules. In this instance, it is essentially a stick and it cost you 5 gp.
BUT THE POOR ARTIFICER! As Davedamon mentioned, specific rules beat general rules. They MUST have a spellcasting focus (which isn't even something that is normally a spellcasting focus, it's artisan's tools or Thieves' Tools. Can your sorcerer use those? No.). If they must use the focus, and they have non M spells on their list, then it stands to reason that they must use their tools to cast their spells.
If you do think that because the Artificer can do it that everyone can do it, then there is no such thing as classes since everyone can now do everything. Also, I can spend your money because you can spend your money. You can't spend my money, because I can't even spend my money.
Not really, I pointed to the language used. The hammer uses non-exclusive language while the arcane focus uses exclusionary language. One is offering a suggestion of a possible use, while the other is providing a restriction on who can use it. You honestly only need to read the text itself and then comprehend the words and you should be a-ok.
Like, I wouldn't ever say you couldn't use an arcane Focus for other things. You could roll an orb down a hill or chuck it at a guards head as an improvised weapon. But, when it comes to what the text says, that is non-negotiable. It can be used by a sorcerer, warlock, or wizard as a spellcasting focus... and it can channel arcane spells. That's absolute. Written right there on the page. RAW.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
'Can channel your arcane spells through it' means 'Can use it as a spellcasting focus'. This has no mechanical effect if the spell does not have a material component.
This post shows you have no business contributing to this thread.
Jhffan puts forward a complete, no-shit explanation with quotes, Ravnodaus.
However, I will point out that your inability to argue against yourself is, no-shits, proof that you don't understand. Not sugar coating it. Go relax, come back, try to understand the opposition again, and when you DO see it clearly, THEN you can argue against it. Instead, you're just shouting at the top of your lungs how you see the elephant from your point of view, which is a valid point of view, but it is incapable of discerning the truth.
Actually, they're not wrong there.
Armor Proficiency.
Anyone can put on a suit of armor or strap a shield to an arm. Only those proficient in the armor's use know how to wear it effectively, however. Your class gives you proficiency with certain types of armor. If you wear armor that you lack proficiency with, you have disadvantage on any ability check, saving throw, or attack roll that involves Strength or Dexterity, and you can't cast spells.
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Did need me to say "effectively" in there? Because a wizard that can't cast spells and has disadvantage on all of its dagger attacks is a pretty piss poor facsimile of a wizard. And he hasn't shown that he knows what text tells you which classes can effectively use shields.
Anyone CAN use a shield to get +2 AC though. Anyone... rofl. You two are so eager to get a gotcha moment that you forget basic stuff like that?
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Who cares about effectiveness? If the wizard wants to pick up a shield to protect their self, (s)he can do that. Its not hard to imagine a situation where a low-level wizard would want to do that.
This is true. The distinction is merited and I don't want them feeling like I'm trying to be unreasonable, though. Since they are arguing that something can be done and we're arguing that it can't be done, it doesn't help to leave that loophole open.
Ok. so I made a mistake. Shields can be worn by anyone.
Look, I can admit when I'm wrong.
Okay, but then that still holds true for an Arcane Focus with spells that have no M components. You can perform somatic components with the focus in your hand but cannot effectively cast the spell.
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That is not at all being implied by what I'm saying. Not even sure how you come to that idea. I've never suggested anything like that.
I'm reading everything people are saying and offering rebuttals, repeatedly sometimes. But by rebuttals are not being addressed. You're reiterated you same points again that I've already rebutted and just ignored the rebuttal. I'll try again...
No to that bolded bit. That's just not true. Having a holy symbol on something doesn't make that thing a spellcasting focus, and nothing says that it does. This is another weird invention. The text there clearly says that the holy symbol itself is the spellcasting focus. This obsession with shields in this thread is so weird.
The cleric in this example is wielding a shield with their hand, not a spellcasting focus. This normally prevents using that hand for spellcasting, obviously. The whole purpose of this example seems to be to explain that they intended for the shield to still be usable for S components in some cases, but the book didn't properly explain it, so they do here. That's the whole purpose of the sage advice, yeah? Explaining things the book didn't.
And this makes even less sense. To that bolded bit: It does stand to reason that they can use a spellcasting focus to cast non M spell, yeah. But you've been arguing this whole time that they CANNOT do exactly that. So it stands to reason you're wrong about being unable to cast non-M spells with a spellcasting focus.
And nothing in their entry tells us that they can. Really, read it again if you must but nothing at all in the Artificer spellcasting section gives them some special permission to do what you seem to say that they and they alone can do. So if it isn't a default ability that anyone can do, then they can't either. Because again, while they are required to do it in general, nothing actually lets them do it for specifically non M spells.
I'm all for classes having unique abilities, but they actually need to be written on the page, with, like, words.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.