My interpretation was based on an assumption of simultaneous beams. Jeremy's tweet suggests the beams are sequential, though I couldn't guess exactly which words written in the rule book make that certain to be the case. If the beams were simultaneous then I would consider the movement to be similarly simultaneous, and non-additive for reasons of how I feel non-damage effects of the same spell generally don't stack.
Damage effects from the same spell don't stack either. For example if 2 spellcasters cast cloudkill and a creature begins its turn in the area of both spells, it only makes 1 save against 5d8 damage. Not 2 saves, and not 10d8.
That is why I have mentioned multiple times that the way the rule you are citing works would make only 1 beam do damage even if 4 beams hit. But luckily that rule only applies if the same spell is cast multiple times and has a non-instantaneous duration, neither of which is the case for eldritch blast.
I don't know why this is a problem for any DM (a house rule to nerf is one thing, but getting the rule wrong is another). The invocation plainly states that it occurs per hit.
I think my problem is the beams strike the target all within that 5ft Box and nothing says they are additive. Spells do only what they say they do. so each beam colliding with a target on a single 5ft Square can only move that target 10ft. it has no ruling saying the beams collide only after the other. and nothing says the beams collide after the target is pushed back 10ft. so each beam colliding with a target will only push the target 10Ft from the point of collision. Yes each beam gets it own hit so incase u miss one the target is still effected. but the point of origin does not change. I come at this discussion from the stance that spells only do explicitly what they say they do and a target can be moved UP TO 10ft making 10 ft the restriction based on the target origin.
IMHO, I don't think anything in RAW prevents it from pushing one creature back more than once.
If this question came up, I would look at it like this: Is the player forced to specify all targets of the beams for EB on casting, or are they allowed to roll against one and then choose the next target?
If the latter, that would suggest sequential beams, as you can see the effect of one before choosing the next target. Therefore, each bean hits one after the other and the push back "stacks"
If the former, this is highly suggestive of all beams happening roughly at once (with no chance to see the effects of a hit). This doesn't necessarily mean they don't stack, but the answer isn't as simple. However, as per damage (each beam does its own damage) I would say that they do stack.
Can you explain why exactly you think the effects shouldn’t be additive? I want to make sure I understand your position before trying again to answer it.
I don't think it really needs to be answered further. I've just checked pretty extensively, and Repelling Eldritch Blast is a completely unique situation. There are zero other spells I can find which fire off multiple instances of themself in a single casting, can target the same creature more than once in that casting, and have any effect other than damage. Thus there are no genuine parallels to draw to support either interpretation, and doing so is counterproductive.
My interpretation was based on an assumption of simultaneous beams. Jeremy's tweet suggests the beams are sequential, though I couldn't guess exactly which words written in the rule book make that certain to be the case. If the beams were simultaneous then I would consider the movement to be similarly simultaneous, and non-additive for reasons of how I feel non-damage effects of the same spell generally don't stack.
Again, I don't think this position needs to be debated, but you asked for clarification of my position. Jeremy's tweet (if taken as a ruling) makes it moot. I fully understand the counterposition - I just still don't agree with it. And that's ok.
so the original question was "is there an official ruling" i think that its clear that's a no from how much debate is going on so the best answer to me is dm's choice
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NNCHRIS: SOUL THIEF, MASTER OF THE ARCANE, AND KING OF NEW YORKNN Gdl Creator of Ilheia and her Knights of the Fallen Stars ldG Lesser Student of Technomancy [undergrad student in computer science] Supporter of the 2014 rules, and a MASSIVE Homebrewer. Come to me all ye who seek salvation in wording thy brews! Open to homebrew trades at any time!! Or feel free to request HB, and Ill see if I can get it done for ya! Characters (Outdated)
Can you explain why exactly you think the effects shouldn’t be additive? I want to make sure I understand your position before trying again to answer it.
I don't think it really needs to be answered further. I've just checked pretty extensively, and Repelling Eldritch Blast is a completely unique situation. There are zero other spells I can find which fire off multiple instances of themself in a single casting, can target the same creature more than once in that casting, and have any effect other than damage. Thus there are no genuine parallels to draw to support either interpretation, and doing so is counterproductive.
My interpretation was based on an assumption of simultaneous beams. Jeremy's tweet suggests the beams are sequential, though I couldn't guess exactly which words written in the rule book make that certain to be the case. If the beams were simultaneous then I would consider the movement to be similarly simultaneous, and non-additive for reasons of how I feel non-damage effects of the same spell generally don't stack.
Again, I don't think this position needs to be debated, but you asked for clarification of my position. Jeremy's tweet (if taken as a ruling) makes it moot. I fully understand the counterposition - I just still don't agree with it. And that's ok.
What about scorching ray?
Scorching Ray only does damage, it has no secondary effects.
But back to the simultaneous vs sequential discussion...Where spells limit effects, or modify standards, they say so. The Hadar spell specifically limits the pull effect to once per turn. Magic Missile specifically states the strikes hit simultaneously. Eldritch Blast (and repelling blast) does not say either of those things. If they have to specifically state those additional modifications, then the “standard” is sequential, non-turn limited repelling effect
When you hit a creature with eldritch blast, you can push the creature up to 10 feet away from you in a straight line.
The only requirement for Repelling Blast is "when you hit a creature"; it's not "one creature you hit", "the first creature you hit", "once per turn", "once per creature hit", "once per casting", etc.
Repelling Blast applies to each and every beam of Eldritch Blast that you want it to. If you want to hit one creature multiple times, you can push them multiple times too.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
When you hit a creature with eldritch blast, you can push the creature up to 10 feet away from you in a straight line.
The only requirement for Repelling Blast is "when you hit a creature"; it's not "one creature you hit", "the first creature you hit", "once per turn", "once per creature hit", "once per casting", etc.
Repelling Blast applies to each and every beam of Eldritch Blast that you want it to. If you want to hit one creature multiple times, you can push them multiple times too.
Agreed. The trigger is "When you hit a creature with Eldritch Blast". At Level 5 and above, that trigger can happen more than once per casting of Eldritch Blast. In the absence of any language limiting the effect to a certain number of times per turn, it does seem clear that the push effect applies EVERY time you hit with Eldritch Blast.
I think my problem is the beams strike the target all within that 5ft Box and nothing says they are additive.
Nothing says anything about a 5ft box. The target is a creature within range, not a point in space. If the first blast moved that creature, the next one is still targeting it in its new position.
so the original question was "is there an official ruling" i think that its clear that's a no from how much debate is going on so the best answer to me is dm's choice
Just because there's a debate doesn't mean there is true uncertainty. Take flat-earthers for example. The rules say it pushes every time it hits. A hit is when you roll an attack roll with a d20 and beat the target's AC. Thus by RAW, each bolt can push. One side has provided this with references and the other keeps pointing at rules that don't apply because they're trying to rule what they think it should do rather than what the words say.
Just because there's a debate doesn't mean there is true uncertainty. Take flat-earthers for example.
fair point, i personally do agree the effects do stack, the main goal of my post was to stop the debate and remind people that even if there is a rule in place final ruling all comes down to dm interpretation
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NNCHRIS: SOUL THIEF, MASTER OF THE ARCANE, AND KING OF NEW YORKNN Gdl Creator of Ilheia and her Knights of the Fallen Stars ldG Lesser Student of Technomancy [undergrad student in computer science] Supporter of the 2014 rules, and a MASSIVE Homebrewer. Come to me all ye who seek salvation in wording thy brews! Open to homebrew trades at any time!! Or feel free to request HB, and Ill see if I can get it done for ya! Characters (Outdated)
The only "debate" I see occurring here is between people whom know how the rules actually work, and those whom do not.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
yes, but the last thing we need during this time is needless arguing after we have the evidence, which we do
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NNCHRIS: SOUL THIEF, MASTER OF THE ARCANE, AND KING OF NEW YORKNN Gdl Creator of Ilheia and her Knights of the Fallen Stars ldG Lesser Student of Technomancy [undergrad student in computer science] Supporter of the 2014 rules, and a MASSIVE Homebrewer. Come to me all ye who seek salvation in wording thy brews! Open to homebrew trades at any time!! Or feel free to request HB, and Ill see if I can get it done for ya! Characters (Outdated)
look I am not sayin the additive is wrong I am simplify trying to point out that all of the blasts strike the target one the same space allowing UP to 10ft of movement from the spot. if you want the move to be additive that is fine but there is nothing to support that because spells are not Physics like in real life they are spells they do only exactly what they say. you can rule them to add up but being that all of the strikes leave the caster at the same time on cast i find it debatable that you can move the target only up to 10ft. Can you at least come too see this side of the debate that I am approaching this from?
The "up to 10 ft" just means they could be stopped from moving that far due to obstacles or the like. The most important part is the "When you hit a creature" as Sigred and others pointed out. Eldritch Blast can hit multiple times (not simultaneously because they are individual attack rolls) so each beam can trigger the effect. I can't see it from the other side of the debate because it's simply not supported by the RAW.
look I am not sayin the additive is wrong I am simplify trying to point out that all of the blasts strike the target one the same space allowing UP to 10ft of movement from the spot. if you want the move to be additive that is fine but there is nothing to support that because spells are not Physics like in real life they are spells they do only exactly what they say. you can rule them to add up but being that all of the strikes leave the caster at the same time on cast i find it debatable that you can move the target only up to 10ft. Can you at least come too see this side of the debate that I am approaching this from?
Eldritch Blast does not target the spot, it targets the creature. if the creature moves, the spell moves, so long as the creature is not outside the range. Additionally, JC has said that the game intent is that instantaneous effects do not occur simultaneously (unless there is an exception specifically saying so, like magic missile). since each beam is its own roll to hit and own damage, they are not simultaneous, and the effects stack.
look I am not sayin the additive is wrong I am simplify trying to point out that all of the blasts strike the target one the same space allowing UP to 10ft of movement from the spot. if you want the move to be additive that is fine but there is nothing to support that because spells are not Physics like in real life they are spells they do only exactly what they say. you can rule them to add up but being that all of the strikes leave the caster at the same time on cast i find it debatable that you can move the target only up to 10ft. Can you at least come too see this side of the debate that I am approaching this from?
My emphasis: bold red. These two statements are simply not true.
All of the blasts do not have to strike the target at the same location; the spell targets the creature, not the spot they're at. All of the blasts do not (possibly cannot) leave the caster or strike the target at the same time. One attack roll per beam, not per target. Think about how archery works with Extra Attack. If you can fire your bow multiple times per Attack action, you don't fire multiple arrows at the same time. Even if you're attacking the same target with all of your attacks, you resolve each attack roll sequentially.
We all understand where you're coming from with your view. What we would like for you to understand is that the conclusion you draw is based on an imperfect understanding of how the spell itself functions. That's easy to fix; no big deal!
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
ok so then u can shot 1 beam and move select a new target and fire the second beam by that logic then right. if we treat them as sperate then those should also be right up that ally of thought. This seems to be an understanding of a timing ruling then. thats my issue because u can not move and choose different targets for spells such as scorching ray.
Except that the rule that specifies that you can move between attacks specifically calls out weapon attacks only - which Eldritch Blast is not one of because it is a spell attack.
Moving Between Attacks
If you take an action that includes more than one weapon attack, you can break up your movement even further by moving between those attacks. For example, a fighter who can make two attacks with the Extra Attack feature and who has a speed of 25 feet could move 10 feet, make an attack, move 15 feet, and then attack again.
ok so that is kind of what i am leaning to is that under a spell there is nothing stating that the sequential order is one after the other the attack rolls are only to ensure that each attack in and of itself is successful. I also want to reiterate one more time i 100% see the validity in additive from a stance based on real world physics but, recently i started entertaining the idea more along the lines that spells can only do exactly what they say they can do. so each spell leaves the hands together and strikes together. if we do not have the time to move between shots then how can we claim bolts of equivalent power strike only after the target is moved 10ft. this is more of a thought exercise for me.
look I am not sayin the additive is wrong I am simplify trying to point out that all of the blasts strike the target one the same space allowing UP to 10ft of movement from the spot. if you want the move to be additive that is fine but there is nothing to support that because spells are not Physics like in real life they are spells they do only exactly what they say. you can rule them to add up but being that all of the strikes leave the caster at the same time on cast i find it debatable that you can move the target only up to 10ft. Can you at least come too see this side of the debate that I am approaching this from?
My emphasis: bold red. These two statements are simply not true.
All of the blasts do not have to strike the target at the same location; the spell targets the creature, not the spot they're at. All of the blasts do not (possibly cannot) leave the caster or strike the target at the same time. One attack roll per beam, not per target. Think about how archery works with Extra Attack. If you can fire your bow multiple times per Attack action, you don't fire multiple arrows at the same time. Even if you're attacking the same target with all of your attacks, you resolve each attack roll sequentially.
We all understand where you're coming from with your view. What we would like for you to understand is that the conclusion you draw is based on an imperfect understanding of how the spell itself functions. That's easy to fix; no big deal!
You're misreading the idea of a blast effect as a salvo or volley. The latter two ideas imply a staggered or sequential effect (one beam after another). Blast implies a activity grouped within the same instance (a "zzzzzap" as opposed to "zap" "zap" "zap"). If you had multiple d20s you'd best capture the effects of the beam by rolling one for each beam all at once. Most people don't want to count dice pools so table convention allows you to roll one after the other. Think a double barrel shotgun or a pepperbox weapon with all barrels ready to fire at once (slugs instead of shot in both cases so we don't have to think of spread akin to AoE). Now does a magical effect compound damage or physically moving force if multiple beams are at play? that's debatable. But I don't think the assumption that each beam strikes in a succession is helping your argument, it's offering a misrepresentation of the effect.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
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Damage effects from the same spell don't stack either. For example if 2 spellcasters cast cloudkill and a creature begins its turn in the area of both spells, it only makes 1 save against 5d8 damage. Not 2 saves, and not 10d8.
That is why I have mentioned multiple times that the way the rule you are citing works would make only 1 beam do damage even if 4 beams hit. But luckily that rule only applies if the same spell is cast multiple times and has a non-instantaneous duration, neither of which is the case for eldritch blast.
I don't know why this is a problem for any DM (a house rule to nerf is one thing, but getting the rule wrong is another). The invocation plainly states that it occurs per hit.
I think my problem is the beams strike the target all within that 5ft Box and nothing says they are additive. Spells do only what they say they do. so each beam colliding with a target on a single 5ft Square can only move that target 10ft. it has no ruling saying the beams collide only after the other. and nothing says the beams collide after the target is pushed back 10ft. so each beam colliding with a target will only push the target 10Ft from the point of collision. Yes each beam gets it own hit so incase u miss one the target is still effected. but the point of origin does not change. I come at this discussion from the stance that spells only do explicitly what they say they do and a target can be moved UP TO 10ft making 10 ft the restriction based on the target origin.
IMHO, I don't think anything in RAW prevents it from pushing one creature back more than once.
If this question came up, I would look at it like this: Is the player forced to specify all targets of the beams for EB on casting, or are they allowed to roll against one and then choose the next target?
What about scorching ray?
When players get creative.
so the original question was "is there an official ruling" i think that its clear that's a no from how much debate is going on so the best answer to me is dm's choice
NNCHRIS: SOUL THIEF, MASTER OF THE ARCANE, AND KING OF NEW YORKNN
Gdl Creator of Ilheia and her Knights of the Fallen Stars ldG
Lesser Student of Technomancy [undergrad student in computer science]
Supporter of the 2014 rules, and a MASSIVE Homebrewer. Come to me all ye who seek salvation in wording thy brews!
Open to homebrew trades at any time!! Or feel free to request HB, and Ill see if I can get it done for ya!
Characters (Outdated)
Scorching Ray only does damage, it has no secondary effects.
But back to the simultaneous vs sequential discussion...Where spells limit effects, or modify standards, they say so. The Hadar spell specifically limits the pull effect to once per turn. Magic Missile specifically states the strikes hit simultaneously. Eldritch Blast (and repelling blast) does not say either of those things. If they have to specifically state those additional modifications, then the “standard” is sequential, non-turn limited repelling effect
This is ridiculous. Of course the invocation applies to each hit.
The only requirement for Repelling Blast is "when you hit a creature"; it's not "one creature you hit", "the first creature you hit", "once per turn", "once per creature hit", "once per casting", etc.
Repelling Blast applies to each and every beam of Eldritch Blast that you want it to. If you want to hit one creature multiple times, you can push them multiple times too.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Agreed. The trigger is "When you hit a creature with Eldritch Blast". At Level 5 and above, that trigger can happen more than once per casting of Eldritch Blast. In the absence of any language limiting the effect to a certain number of times per turn, it does seem clear that the push effect applies EVERY time you hit with Eldritch Blast.
Nothing says anything about a 5ft box. The target is a creature within range, not a point in space. If the first blast moved that creature, the next one is still targeting it in its new position.
Just because there's a debate doesn't mean there is true uncertainty. Take flat-earthers for example. The rules say it pushes every time it hits. A hit is when you roll an attack roll with a d20 and beat the target's AC. Thus by RAW, each bolt can push. One side has provided this with references and the other keeps pointing at rules that don't apply because they're trying to rule what they think it should do rather than what the words say.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
fair point, i personally do agree the effects do stack, the main goal of my post was to stop the debate and remind people that even if there is a rule in place final ruling all comes down to dm interpretation
NNCHRIS: SOUL THIEF, MASTER OF THE ARCANE, AND KING OF NEW YORKNN
Gdl Creator of Ilheia and her Knights of the Fallen Stars ldG
Lesser Student of Technomancy [undergrad student in computer science]
Supporter of the 2014 rules, and a MASSIVE Homebrewer. Come to me all ye who seek salvation in wording thy brews!
Open to homebrew trades at any time!! Or feel free to request HB, and Ill see if I can get it done for ya!
Characters (Outdated)
The only "debate" I see occurring here is between people whom know how the rules actually work, and those whom do not.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
yes, but the last thing we need during this time is needless arguing after we have the evidence, which we do
NNCHRIS: SOUL THIEF, MASTER OF THE ARCANE, AND KING OF NEW YORKNN
Gdl Creator of Ilheia and her Knights of the Fallen Stars ldG
Lesser Student of Technomancy [undergrad student in computer science]
Supporter of the 2014 rules, and a MASSIVE Homebrewer. Come to me all ye who seek salvation in wording thy brews!
Open to homebrew trades at any time!! Or feel free to request HB, and Ill see if I can get it done for ya!
Characters (Outdated)
look I am not sayin the additive is wrong I am simplify trying to point out that all of the blasts strike the target one the same space allowing UP to 10ft of movement from the spot. if you want the move to be additive that is fine but there is nothing to support that because spells are not Physics like in real life they are spells they do only exactly what they say. you can rule them to add up but being that all of the strikes leave the caster at the same time on cast i find it debatable that you can move the target only up to 10ft. Can you at least come too see this side of the debate that I am approaching this from?
The "up to 10 ft" just means they could be stopped from moving that far due to obstacles or the like. The most important part is the "When you hit a creature" as Sigred and others pointed out. Eldritch Blast can hit multiple times (not simultaneously because they are individual attack rolls) so each beam can trigger the effect. I can't see it from the other side of the debate because it's simply not supported by the RAW.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
Eldritch Blast does not target the spot, it targets the creature. if the creature moves, the spell moves, so long as the creature is not outside the range. Additionally, JC has said that the game intent is that instantaneous effects do not occur simultaneously (unless there is an exception specifically saying so, like magic missile). since each beam is its own roll to hit and own damage, they are not simultaneous, and the effects stack.
My emphasis: bold red. These two statements are simply not true.
All of the blasts do not have to strike the target at the same location; the spell targets the creature, not the spot they're at. All of the blasts do not (possibly cannot) leave the caster or strike the target at the same time. One attack roll per beam, not per target. Think about how archery works with Extra Attack. If you can fire your bow multiple times per Attack action, you don't fire multiple arrows at the same time. Even if you're attacking the same target with all of your attacks, you resolve each attack roll sequentially.
We all understand where you're coming from with your view. What we would like for you to understand is that the conclusion you draw is based on an imperfect understanding of how the spell itself functions. That's easy to fix; no big deal!
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
ok so then u can shot 1 beam and move select a new target and fire the second beam by that logic then right. if we treat them as sperate then those should also be right up that ally of thought. This seems to be an understanding of a timing ruling then. thats my issue because u can not move and choose different targets for spells such as scorching ray.
Except that the rule that specifies that you can move between attacks specifically calls out weapon attacks only - which Eldritch Blast is not one of because it is a spell attack.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
ok so that is kind of what i am leaning to is that under a spell there is nothing stating that the sequential order is one after the other the attack rolls are only to ensure that each attack in and of itself is successful. I also want to reiterate one more time i 100% see the validity in additive from a stance based on real world physics but, recently i started entertaining the idea more along the lines that spells can only do exactly what they say they can do. so each spell leaves the hands together and strikes together. if we do not have the time to move between shots then how can we claim bolts of equivalent power strike only after the target is moved 10ft. this is more of a thought exercise for me.
You're misreading the idea of a blast effect as a salvo or volley. The latter two ideas imply a staggered or sequential effect (one beam after another). Blast implies a activity grouped within the same instance (a "zzzzzap" as opposed to "zap" "zap" "zap"). If you had multiple d20s you'd best capture the effects of the beam by rolling one for each beam all at once. Most people don't want to count dice pools so table convention allows you to roll one after the other. Think a double barrel shotgun or a pepperbox weapon with all barrels ready to fire at once (slugs instead of shot in both cases so we don't have to think of spread akin to AoE). Now does a magical effect compound damage or physically moving force if multiple beams are at play? that's debatable. But I don't think the assumption that each beam strikes in a succession is helping your argument, it's offering a misrepresentation of the effect.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.