The other night I had my players fighting a flame skull. The wizard used magic missile against it, the flame skull responded with shield as a reaction, and the wizard responded with counterspell as a reaction.
I’m not 100% sure what should happen here, can someone illuminate me?
What I ended up ruling was that no matter what, the magic missile was going to fail. Either shield would be up and they would miss, or magic missile casting would fizzle as the wizard switched to casting counter spell mid-casting of MM.
Basically, the wizard could either let the flame skull have shield up or not, depending on whether they really wanted to cast counter spell, but the magic missile would fail either way. Did I get this right?
RAW? You did this incorrectly. Shield can be counterspelled, so the Shield would go down, and Magic Missile would come into play, dealing damage. You are able to cast an action spell and a reaction spell in the same turn as long you have the spell slots to do so, and haven't cast a bonus action spell in the turn, which wouldn't allow the Magic Missile to work anyway.
Long story short, the player should've been able to counterspell the shield with no downsides.
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First, the wizard takes the Cast a Spell action, casting Magic Missile. Then, the Flameskull casts Shield as a reaction. Then, the wizard casts Counterspell as a reaction. The MM hits, since the shield was blocked by the counterspell.
Wizard did not have to switch between spells "mid-casting" - they finished casting one, then cast the next.
As the others said, what you have recounted would be possible RAW. There could have been story reasons why it wouldn't have worked. What I'd do is either approach the player or announce that I looked up the rules after and discovered that the ruling I'd made was incorrect. Future rulings will be consistent with the correct ruling unless there are other factors in play.
Welcome to the world of being a DM. You'll be wrong from time to time (margin of error goes up with the number of books that you allow).
Counterspell: 1 reaction, which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell You attempt to interrupt a creature in the process of casting a spell. If the creature is casting a spell of 3rd level or lower, its spell fails and has no effect. If it is casting a spell of 4th level or higher, make an ability check using your spellcasting ability. The DC equals 10+ the spell’s level. On a success, the creature’s spell fails and has no effect.
Because the shield already has appeared, the spell has been cast. This means you are too late to use counterspell !
Edit: Counterspell usually only becomes useful when casting time of the opponent is an issue.
Counterspell: 1 reaction, which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell You attempt to interrupt a creature in the process of casting a spell. If the creature is casting a spell of 3rd level or lower, its spell fails and has no effect. If it is casting a spell of 4th level or higher, make an ability check using your spellcasting ability. The DC equals 10+ the spell’s level. On a success, the creature’s spell fails and has no effect.
Because the shield already has appeared, the spell has been cast. This means you are too late to use counterspell !
Edit: Counterspell usually only becomes useful when casting time of the opponent is an issue.
This is a turn based game and isn’t played in real time, and it is 100% not RAI that counterspell is only useful against spells with longer casting times, and there is published Sage advice indicating you can counterspell nearly any spell, including reaction spells and counterspell itself:
You sure can! Here’s a common way for it to happen: Cornelius the wizard is casting fireball on his turn, and his foe casts counterspell on him. Cornelius also has counterspell prepared, so he uses his reaction to cast it and break his foe’s counterspell before it can stop fireball.
The skull wouldn't be able to cast Shield until the MM spell has been cast. By the time the skull is casting Shield the wizard has finished casting MM and would then be free to Counterspell the shield. It's a bit finicky since things aren't happening in real time. You could imagine it as a ping pong match. After the wizard serves (Magic Missile) and he sees the skull load up for a smash (Shield) he throws his racket at the skull to interrupt him (counterspell).
Outside of Metamagic Subtle spell and specific monster abilities that say so (I’m sure I’m missing a few conditions but I’m going from what I’ve run into at the table) my ruling is that most any spell can be counterspelled so long as the requirements of counterspell (successful roll, higher spell slot) are met
How would you know the skull is going to cast a spell?
In the case of Shield there's also the components: V, S. Making gestures is perhaps a bit difficult.
By the same way that the skull knows the wizard is casting a spell?
Nope. The skull can see the wizard making gestures (s component of the spell) , the skull can't make any gestures, so the wizard can't notice. IMHO the skull can only cast spells that lack the S component.
Yes, it's a turn based game, but within turns there's sequence of events
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"Semper in faecibus sumus, solum profundum variat" playing since 1986
How would you know the skull is going to cast a spell?
In the case of Shield there's also the components: V, S. Making gestures is perhaps a bit difficult.
The Wizard casts Magic Missile. This requires a Verbal and Somatic component. The Wizard would say a magic word for the Verbal component and a specific gesture using one free hand for the Somatic component
The Flameskull can see and hear the Wizard casting the spell, so attempts to react with Shield spell which requires Verbal and Somatic components. The Flameskull can ignore Somatic components but still has to provide verbal components. It says the magic word for the Shield spell. In this case the casting of Magic Missile is successful, but the reaction of the Flameskull's Shield spell will occur after that casting but before the magic missile spell takes effect and damages it.
The Wizard can hear that the Flameskull is saying a magic word. It may not know which spell the Flameskull is casting but you don't need to in order to counterspell. So the Wizard reacts to that magic word by casting Counterspell. It only requires a Somatic component and can be done with the Wizard's other hand. This interrupts and negates the Flameskull's casting of the Shield spell. The Magic Missile hits as intended. This is because this reaction occurs "while" the Flameskull is casting and interrupts before that casting is complete. Therefore the Shield spell doesn't take effect and so does not block the magic missiles.
When determining these things always check the Reaction trigger text and spell description. It will tell you how and when which spells take effect and how.
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When a flameskull casts shield, it has components too. They are different from how the players do the components, but maybe it moves its jaw in a certain manner for Somatic Components, and says arcane words for Verbal Components. Flameskulls don't have a part of their stat block that says they don't have to make Somatic or Verbal components for their spells, so the players would be able to tell they're casting a spell, and would be able to counterspell.
A spell is a spell is a spell. No matter the source, unless the stat block says that they don't have to make verbal and somatic components for the spells, the players can see them happening.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
How would you know the skull is going to cast a spell?
In the case of Shield there's also the components: V, S. Making gestures is perhaps a bit difficult.
By the same way that the skull knows the wizard is casting a spell?
Nope. The skull can see the wizard making gestures (s component of the spell) , the skull can't make any gestures, so the wizard can't notice. IMHO the skull can only cast spells that lack the S component.
Yes, it's a turn based game, but within turns there's sequence of events
The flameskull's stat block specifically states that it doesn't need material or somatic components to cast its spells. Shield still has a V component and the flameskull only speaks common. It's reasonable to surmise that the wizard understands what's going on and casts counterspell.
Sticking to strictly RAW, the Shield can be counter spelled. There is nothing that states that otherwise among either spell or in the flameskull's stat block (since the ability roll comes up only with 4th level spells, which the flameskull doesn't possess, and doesn't force a save at any rate).
DM fiat can implement other obstacles, such as the background noise of the area plus the noise of the fight, to impose an active perception check to hear the spell being cast and then not allow the counterspell to be cast (nor the spell slot consumed). One can even say that the way that spells manifest themselves is different for each caster or that pressure develops as the spell designed to counter your spell grows in power, or any number of things to help narrate what is happening. But those things aren't in the rules and are therefore not something that can be applied in a general sense.
Hi all,
The other night I had my players fighting a flame skull. The wizard used magic missile against it, the flame skull responded with shield as a reaction, and the wizard responded with counterspell as a reaction.
I’m not 100% sure what should happen here, can someone illuminate me?
What I ended up ruling was that no matter what, the magic missile was going to fail. Either shield would be up and they would miss, or magic missile casting would fizzle as the wizard switched to casting counter spell mid-casting of MM.
Basically, the wizard could either let the flame skull have shield up or not, depending on whether they really wanted to cast counter spell, but the magic missile would fail either way. Did I get this right?
RAW? You did this incorrectly. Shield can be counterspelled, so the Shield would go down, and Magic Missile would come into play, dealing damage. You are able to cast an action spell and a reaction spell in the same turn as long you have the spell slots to do so, and haven't cast a bonus action spell in the turn, which wouldn't allow the Magic Missile to work anyway.
Long story short, the player should've been able to counterspell the shield with no downsides.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Yeah, by RAW the things all happen in order.
First, the wizard takes the Cast a Spell action, casting Magic Missile. Then, the Flameskull casts Shield as a reaction. Then, the wizard casts Counterspell as a reaction. The MM hits, since the shield was blocked by the counterspell.
Wizard did not have to switch between spells "mid-casting" - they finished casting one, then cast the next.
As the others said, what you have recounted would be possible RAW. There could have been story reasons why it wouldn't have worked. What I'd do is either approach the player or announce that I looked up the rules after and discovered that the ruling I'd made was incorrect. Future rulings will be consistent with the correct ruling unless there are other factors in play.
Welcome to the world of being a DM. You'll be wrong from time to time (margin of error goes up with the number of books that you allow).
Counterspell:
1 reaction, which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell
You attempt to interrupt a creature in the process of casting a spell. If the creature is casting a spell of 3rd level or lower, its spell fails and has no effect. If it is casting a spell of 4th level or higher, make an ability check using your spellcasting ability. The DC equals 10+ the spell’s level. On a success, the creature’s spell fails and has no effect.
Because the shield already has appeared, the spell has been cast. This means you are too late to use counterspell !
Edit: Counterspell usually only becomes useful when casting time of the opponent is an issue.
playing since 1986
This is a turn based game and isn’t played in real time, and it is 100% not RAI that counterspell is only useful against spells with longer casting times, and there is published Sage advice indicating you can counterspell nearly any spell, including reaction spells and counterspell itself:
You sure can! Here’s a common way for it to happen: Cornelius the wizard is casting fireball on his turn, and his foe casts counterspell on him. Cornelius also has counterspell prepared, so he uses his reaction to cast it and break his foe’s counterspell before it can stop fireball.
I believe you will find yourself in the minority with this opinion.
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The skull wouldn't be able to cast Shield until the MM spell has been cast. By the time the skull is casting Shield the wizard has finished casting MM and would then be free to Counterspell the shield. It's a bit finicky since things aren't happening in real time. You could imagine it as a ping pong match. After the wizard serves (Magic Missile) and he sees the skull load up for a smash (Shield) he throws his racket at the skull to interrupt him (counterspell).
Hope that helps. B)
It works the same way as “The Stack” in M:tG.
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How would you know the skull is going to cast a spell?
In the case of Shield there's also the components: V, S. Making gestures is perhaps a bit difficult.
playing since 1986
By the same way that the skull knows the wizard is casting a spell?
Yup
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Outside of Metamagic Subtle spell and specific monster abilities that say so (I’m sure I’m missing a few conditions but I’m going from what I’ve run into at the table) my ruling is that most any spell can be counterspelled so long as the requirements of counterspell (successful roll, higher spell slot) are met
Nope. The skull can see the wizard making gestures (s component of the spell) , the skull can't make any gestures, so the wizard can't notice. IMHO the skull can only cast spells that lack the S component.
Yes, it's a turn based game, but within turns there's sequence of events
playing since 1986
The Wizard casts Magic Missile. This requires a Verbal and Somatic component. The Wizard would say a magic word for the Verbal component and a specific gesture using one free hand for the Somatic component
The Flameskull can see and hear the Wizard casting the spell, so attempts to react with Shield spell which requires Verbal and Somatic components. The Flameskull can ignore Somatic components but still has to provide verbal components. It says the magic word for the Shield spell. In this case the casting of Magic Missile is successful, but the reaction of the Flameskull's Shield spell will occur after that casting but before the magic missile spell takes effect and damages it.
The Wizard can hear that the Flameskull is saying a magic word. It may not know which spell the Flameskull is casting but you don't need to in order to counterspell. So the Wizard reacts to that magic word by casting Counterspell. It only requires a Somatic component and can be done with the Wizard's other hand. This interrupts and negates the Flameskull's casting of the Shield spell. The Magic Missile hits as intended. This is because this reaction occurs "while" the Flameskull is casting and interrupts before that casting is complete. Therefore the Shield spell doesn't take effect and so does not block the magic missiles.
When determining these things always check the Reaction trigger text and spell description. It will tell you how and when which spells take effect and how.
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My mistake. The description of flameskull says no somatic or material component is needed.
playing since 1986
When a flameskull casts shield, it has components too. They are different from how the players do the components, but maybe it moves its jaw in a certain manner for Somatic Components, and says arcane words for Verbal Components. Flameskulls don't have a part of their stat block that says they don't have to make Somatic or Verbal components for their spells, so the players would be able to tell they're casting a spell, and would be able to counterspell.
A spell is a spell is a spell. No matter the source, unless the stat block says that they don't have to make verbal and somatic components for the spells, the players can see them happening.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
They still have to do Verbal components, which can be recognized as casting a spell, so they can be counterspelled.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
The flameskull's stat block specifically states that it doesn't need material or somatic components to cast its spells. Shield still has a V component and the flameskull only speaks common. It's reasonable to surmise that the wizard understands what's going on and casts counterspell.
Sticking to strictly RAW, the Shield can be counter spelled. There is nothing that states that otherwise among either spell or in the flameskull's stat block (since the ability roll comes up only with 4th level spells, which the flameskull doesn't possess, and doesn't force a save at any rate).
DM fiat can implement other obstacles, such as the background noise of the area plus the noise of the fight, to impose an active perception check to hear the spell being cast and then not allow the counterspell to be cast (nor the spell slot consumed). One can even say that the way that spells manifest themselves is different for each caster or that pressure develops as the spell designed to counter your spell grows in power, or any number of things to help narrate what is happening. But those things aren't in the rules and are therefore not something that can be applied in a general sense.
There is nothing stating that you have to know, or see, or perceive the casting of the spell. Counterspell only says you attempt to interrupt.
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