Hard to believe how many years this discussion has been on-going :)
Text of magic missile is:
"You create three glowing darts of magical force. Each dart hits a creature of your choice that you can see within range. A dart deals ld4 + 1 force damage to its target. The darts all strike simultaneously, and you can direct them to hit one creature or several."
The text only says "a dart" does d4+1 damage. The wording could be interpreted to mean that each dart does the same damage. When combined with the rule on p196 specifying that a spell that can affect more than one target uses a single dice roll - you end up with rolling just 1d4+1 and multiplying by the number of missiles.
There is a JC tweet around indicating that roll once for all missiles is an intended interpretation if folks follow those.
However, a DM can run their game however they want and traditionally folks have rolled each d4 separately (including me :) ).
The main concern I have seen is abilities that boost the damage of one die roll which are then multiplied by the number of missiles and can end up doing significant damage. (I think this is the idea behind the nuclear wizard concept but I could be wrong).
-----
However, magic missile seems to often be used to cause multiple concentration checks - and I am not sure of the justification for that. The Taking damage section says:
"If you take damage from multiple sources, such as an arrow and a dragon's breath, you make a separate saving throw for each source of damage."
Applying that seems to require each dart being treated as a separate source of damage. However, magic missile states that the missiles hit simultaneously. If they hit simultaneously and come from a single source (magic missile spell), I am not sure I see the justification for allowing more than one concentration check.
RAW, you roll 1d4+1 once and all darts deal identical amounts of damage.
That's a general rule and specfic overrides general. Specific there are 3 darts. Each dart does 1d4+1.
Your specific rule doesn't specify whether you roll once or multiple times, so it defaults to the general rule.
Not an additional rule. It is literally the spell description. 3 darts, each dart does 1d4+1. You can have one or multiple targets.
Sorry, I'll rephrase for you. Your spell description doesn't specify whether you roll once or multiple times, so it defaults to the general rule.
To give a specific example to explain, roll a d4, it comes up a 2, each dart does 2+1 damage. RAW you roll once and that's the damage for all of them. That doesn't mean you can't roll separately for each, it just means that you're doing that because it's more fun that way rather than because the rules say to do so.
RAW, you roll 1d4+1 once and all darts deal identical amounts of damage.
That's a general rule and specfic overrides general. Specific there are 3 darts. Each dart does 1d4+1.
Your specific rule doesn't specify whether you roll once or multiple times, so it defaults to the general rule.
Not an additional rule. It is literally the spell description. 3 darts, each dart does 1d4+1. You can have one or multiple targets.
Sorry, I'll rephrase for you. Your spell description doesn't specify whether you roll once or multiple times, so it defaults to the general rule.
To give a specific example to explain, roll a d4, it comes up a 2, each dart does 2+1 damage. RAW you roll once and that's the damage for all of them. That doesn't mean you can't roll separately for each, it just means that you're doing that because it's more fun that way rather than because the rules say to do so.
Look at the keywords in the spell. 'Creates three darts', Each dart hits a creature', 'A dart deals 1d4+1'.
To give a specific example to explain, roll a d4, it comes up a 2, each dart does 2+1 damage. RAW you roll once and that's the damage for all of them. That doesn't mean you can't roll separately for each, it just means that you're doing that because it's more fun that way rather than because the rules say to do so.
Look at the keywords in the spell. 'Creates three darts', Each dart hits a creature', 'A dart deals 1d4+1'.
No part of that indicates that the darts do different damage, just that the damage roll for them is 1d4+1 and each dart does the damage rolled. In the absence of a specific rule requiring you to roll separately for them, RAW is that you roll once.
To give a specific example to explain, roll a d4, it comes up a 2, each dart does 2+1 damage. RAW you roll once and that's the damage for all of them. That doesn't mean you can't roll separately for each, it just means that you're doing that because it's more fun that way rather than because the rules say to do so.
Look at the keywords in the spell. 'Creates three darts', Each dart hits a creature', 'A dart deals 1d4+1'.
No part of that indicates that the darts do different damage, just that the damage roll for them is 1d4+1 and each dart does the damage rolled. In the absence of a specific rule requiring you to roll separately for them, RAW is that you roll once.
Except there is no indication that the spell is an AoE. Compare it to any other AoE spell. Magic Missile only has a range component not an AoE indicator. If it had and AoE indicator, I might see where you're coming from.
To give a specific example to explain, roll a d4, it comes up a 2, each dart does 2+1 damage. RAW you roll once and that's the damage for all of them. That doesn't mean you can't roll separately for each, it just means that you're doing that because it's more fun that way rather than because the rules say to do so.
Look at the keywords in the spell. 'Creates three darts', Each dart hits a creature', 'A dart deals 1d4+1'.
No part of that indicates that the darts do different damage, just that the damage roll for them is 1d4+1 and each dart does the damage rolled. In the absence of a specific rule requiring you to roll separately for them, RAW is that you roll once.
Except there is no indication that the spell is an AoE. Compare it to any other AoE spell. Magic Missile only has a range component not an AoE indicator. If it had and AoE indicator, I might see where you're coming from.
The rule indicating a single roll doesn't care if the spell is an AoE: "If a spell or other effect deals damage to more than one target at the same time, roll the damage once for all of them."
To give a specific example to explain, roll a d4, it comes up a 2, each dart does 2+1 damage. RAW you roll once and that's the damage for all of them. That doesn't mean you can't roll separately for each, it just means that you're doing that because it's more fun that way rather than because the rules say to do so.
Look at the keywords in the spell. 'Creates three darts', Each dart hits a creature', 'A dart deals 1d4+1'.
No part of that indicates that the darts do different damage, just that the damage roll for them is 1d4+1 and each dart does the damage rolled. In the absence of a specific rule requiring you to roll separately for them, RAW is that you roll once.
Except there is no indication that the spell is an AoE. Compare it to any other AoE spell. Magic Missile only has a range component not an AoE indicator. If it had and AoE indicator, I might see where you're coming from.
The rule indicating a single roll doesn't care if the spell is an AoE: "If a spell or other effect deals damage to more than one target at the same time, roll the damage once for all of them."
Except magic missile can target 1 to 3 (assuming no upcast) creatures withing range.
Personally, when playing a wizard, I've never cast MM once I've reached 5th level, unless it was through a wand or other magic item.
I was just pointing out that it is factually incorrect that the rule about rolling once was about AoEs.
On the thirteenth page of this discussion, I know better than to think anyone will be convinced by my argument on how many dice to roll for this spell.
Except magic missile can target 1 to 3 (assuming no upcast) creatures withing range.
Personally, when playing a wizard, I've never cast MM once I've reached 5th level, unless it was through a wand or other magic item.
Magic Missile on an evoker, provided you are allowed to roll once and apply the damage multiple times, is generally the most powerful damage spell you can cast. If you want to go nuclear, it's hard to argue with.
Every singular, countable noun in English must have an article, whereas non-countable nouns and plural nouns do not require an article
When do we use articles?
We only use a/an with singular countable nouns:
I have a sister and a brother.
A dart deals 1d4+1 force damage to it's target.
Therefore by rule of the English language used in the defining of the Magic Missile spell, one rolls 1d4+1 per dart created.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
Yeah, but by the rules of D&D you roll once for all darts.
That is more of a Player/DM preference than actual RAW.
Ether way as you have stated previously, whether one wishes to roll multiple dice or roll a single die that each dart created independently deals that specific amount of damage to it's target, mathematically it averages out in the long run.
But it does make a huge difference when trying to use other rules to buff the damage of the spell. It also makes clear that the referenced page 196 rule does not distribute the damage to all targeted creatures uniformly.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
Yeah, but by the rules of D&D you roll once for all darts.
People grossly overstate the authority of any particular interpretation of magic missile. The operational text that people use to justify this interpretation is
"If a spell or other effect deals damage to more than one target at the same time, roll the damage once for all of them."
The thing is, each missile only does damage to a single target. The spell does damage to multiple targets, but the implication of saying that the above wording applies to magic missile is that you roll damage once, and each target takes that damage. No matter how many missiles hit it. (the rules for combining magical effects also support it being impossible to affect a target with more than one missile at the same time). That's clearly not what is intended for the spell.
Yeah, but by the rules of D&D you roll once for all darts.
That is more of a Player/DM preference than actual RAW.
Ether way as you have stated previously, whether one wishes to roll multiple dice or roll a single die that each dart created independently deals that specific amount of damage to it's target, mathematically it averages out in the long run.
But it does make a huge difference when trying to use other rules to buff the damage of the spell. It also makes clear that the referenced page 196 rule does not distribute the damage to all targeted creatures uniformly.
There is an official answer, but via a tweet (I don't think it made it into the Sage Advice summary), but according to Crawford, just rolling 1 die is RAW. Interestingly, he says RAI is that it does not matter and the DM chooses the answer.
Hate to burst that bubble but Crawford's' tweet is NOT an official answer, as WOTC themselves has deemed any tweet Crawford post on rulings is deemed as non official RAW or RAI. When even the owners of the ruleset burn you, the creditability you had becomes just your opinion on the matter and has the same weight as every one else's opinion on the subject.
Even Crawford in the SAC says that what he offers is just advice on his view of the rules.
So anyone trying to use Crawford as a creditable official ruling, just be aware he's just the guy who signed off on the official wording of the D&D core rules, and his tweets are just his opinion and NOT official as far as Rules as Written.
As I posted earlier, RAW is "A dart deals 1d4+1 force damage to it's target" which means the general rule of p196 does not apply.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
And yet, he uses the specific term RAW. As for literal RAW, if it was as clear cut as you are arguing it to be, we would not be having this debate.
As stated before, WOTC does not recognize Crawford's Tweets as official RAW, therefore his tweets are just his opinion of the subject.
The debate as to whether one rolls once for all missiles/darts to have equal damage per missile/dart or to roll for every missile/dart created has been going on since the spell first appeared in the BECMI ruleset, and has been agreed as personal preference.
Yet within this thread and others, the "one for all" All-Might interpretation of the spell leads others to believe that because only one roll is used that it allows for other general rules to apply. They don't apply, because the very specific wording of the Magic Missile spell prevents them from applying.
If your DM lets you use the All-Might interpretation, that's fine, just remember both of you are breaking the specific beats general rule.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
As I posted earlier, RAW is "A dart deals 1d4+1 force damage to it's target" which means the general rule of p196 does not apply.
By assertion? Or is there actual substance to this claim? Because it certainly isn't in the text. Is there some rule that you're trying to point to without actually doing all that work? None of the rules on either side of the argument really point at whether a word is plural as a defining feature to how the rules behave. All I am asking for is an explanation rather than an assertion. (I actually don't care to argue it, because as I've said, after 13+ pages of this, I doubt anyone is going to convince anyone, and I am competent enough to realize what I think the rules intend and how that might differ from how I play the game myself.)
Hard to believe how many years this discussion has been on-going :)
Text of magic missile is:
"You create three glowing darts of magical force. Each dart hits a creature of your choice that you can see within range. A dart deals ld4 + 1 force damage to its target. The darts all strike simultaneously, and you can direct them to hit one creature or several."
The text only says "a dart" does d4+1 damage. The wording could be interpreted to mean that each dart does the same damage. When combined with the rule on p196 specifying that a spell that can affect more than one target uses a single dice roll - you end up with rolling just 1d4+1 and multiplying by the number of missiles.
There is a JC tweet around indicating that roll once for all missiles is an intended interpretation if folks follow those.
However, a DM can run their game however they want and traditionally folks have rolled each d4 separately (including me :) ).
The main concern I have seen is abilities that boost the damage of one die roll which are then multiplied by the number of missiles and can end up doing significant damage. (I think this is the idea behind the nuclear wizard concept but I could be wrong).
-----
However, magic missile seems to often be used to cause multiple concentration checks - and I am not sure of the justification for that. The Taking damage section says:
"If you take damage from multiple sources, such as an arrow and a dragon's breath, you make a separate saving throw for each source of damage."
Applying that seems to require each dart being treated as a separate source of damage. However, magic missile states that the missiles hit simultaneously. If they hit simultaneously and come from a single source (magic missile spell), I am not sure I see the justification for allowing more than one concentration check.
Sorry, I'll rephrase for you. Your spell description doesn't specify whether you roll once or multiple times, so it defaults to the general rule.
To give a specific example to explain, roll a d4, it comes up a 2, each dart does 2+1 damage. RAW you roll once and that's the damage for all of them. That doesn't mean you can't roll separately for each, it just means that you're doing that because it's more fun that way rather than because the rules say to do so.
Look at the keywords in the spell. 'Creates three darts', Each dart hits a creature', 'A dart deals 1d4+1'.
No part of that indicates that the darts do different damage, just that the damage roll for them is 1d4+1 and each dart does the damage rolled. In the absence of a specific rule requiring you to roll separately for them, RAW is that you roll once.
Except there is no indication that the spell is an AoE. Compare it to any other AoE spell. Magic Missile only has a range component not an AoE indicator. If it had and AoE indicator, I might see where you're coming from.
The rule indicating a single roll doesn't care if the spell is an AoE: "If a spell or other effect deals damage to more than one target at the same time, roll the damage once for all of them."
Except magic missile can target 1 to 3 (assuming no upcast) creatures withing range.
Personally, when playing a wizard, I've never cast MM once I've reached 5th level, unless it was through a wand or other magic item.
I was just pointing out that it is factually incorrect that the rule about rolling once was about AoEs.
On the thirteenth page of this discussion, I know better than to think anyone will be convinced by my argument on how many dice to roll for this spell.
Magic Missile on an evoker, provided you are allowed to roll once and apply the damage multiple times, is generally the most powerful damage spell you can cast. If you want to go nuclear, it's hard to argue with.
How? At the level you get empowered evocation there are so many better options than magic missile.
Which options? Magic missile with +5 damage per dart is at least comparable to and usually better than other spells for a single target.
Every singular, countable noun in English must have an article, whereas non-countable nouns and plural nouns do not require an article
When do we use articles?
We only use a/an with singular countable nouns:
Therefore by rule of the English language used in the defining of the Magic Missile spell, one rolls 1d4+1 per dart created.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
Yeah, but by the rules of D&D you roll once for all darts.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
That is more of a Player/DM preference than actual RAW.
Ether way as you have stated previously, whether one wishes to roll multiple dice or roll a single die that each dart created independently deals that specific amount of damage to it's target, mathematically it averages out in the long run.
But it does make a huge difference when trying to use other rules to buff the damage of the spell. It also makes clear that the referenced page 196 rule does not distribute the damage to all targeted creatures uniformly.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
People grossly overstate the authority of any particular interpretation of magic missile. The operational text that people use to justify this interpretation is
The thing is, each missile only does damage to a single target. The spell does damage to multiple targets, but the implication of saying that the above wording applies to magic missile is that you roll damage once, and each target takes that damage. No matter how many missiles hit it. (the rules for combining magical effects also support it being impossible to affect a target with more than one missile at the same time). That's clearly not what is intended for the spell.
Specific beats general.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Which would be relevant if either text said something specific about how the interaction works.
Hate to burst that bubble but Crawford's' tweet is NOT an official answer, as WOTC themselves has deemed any tweet Crawford post on rulings is deemed as non official RAW or RAI. When even the owners of the ruleset burn you, the creditability you had becomes just your opinion on the matter and has the same weight as every one else's opinion on the subject.
Even Crawford in the SAC says that what he offers is just advice on his view of the rules.
So anyone trying to use Crawford as a creditable official ruling, just be aware he's just the guy who signed off on the official wording of the D&D core rules, and his tweets are just his opinion and NOT official as far as Rules as Written.
As I posted earlier, RAW is "A dart deals 1d4+1 force damage to it's target" which means the general rule of p196 does not apply.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
As stated before, WOTC does not recognize Crawford's Tweets as official RAW, therefore his tweets are just his opinion of the subject.
The debate as to whether one rolls once for all missiles/darts to have equal damage per missile/dart or to roll for every missile/dart created has been going on since the spell first appeared in the BECMI ruleset, and has been agreed as personal preference.
Yet within this thread and others, the "one for all" All-Might interpretation of the spell leads others to believe that because only one roll is used that it allows for other general rules to apply. They don't apply, because the very specific wording of the Magic Missile spell prevents them from applying.
If your DM lets you use the All-Might interpretation, that's fine, just remember both of you are breaking the specific beats general rule.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
By assertion? Or is there actual substance to this claim? Because it certainly isn't in the text. Is there some rule that you're trying to point to without actually doing all that work? None of the rules on either side of the argument really point at whether a word is plural as a defining feature to how the rules behave. All I am asking for is an explanation rather than an assertion. (I actually don't care to argue it, because as I've said, after 13+ pages of this, I doubt anyone is going to convince anyone, and I am competent enough to realize what I think the rules intend and how that might differ from how I play the game myself.)