I don't think the nomenclature is exactly helpful here.
"OK, so there isn't a surprise round. Absolutely not. What we have instead is a round for only non-surprised creatures. Completely different, obviously! Not a surprise round."
I don't think the nomenclature is exactly helpful here.
"OK, so there isn't a surprise round. Absolutely not. What we have instead is a round for only non-surprised creatures. Completely different, obviously! Not a surprise round."
The round isn't only for non-surprised creatures. Surprised creatures roll initiative and take a turn in the first round of combat just like anyone else, they just can't Move or take an Action during their turn (RAI, probably can't take Bonus Actions either), nor take a Reaction until after their turn has finished. This no more removes them from the round than Stunned, Paralyzed, etc do. Imprecise language leads to misremembered rules and unbalanced play at the table, its worth learning how Surprise works and playing it by the book instead of just hand waiving it and talking about "surprise rounds."
The fact that there's nothing in the rules suggesting that "rounds" or "actions" exist outside of combat? Every bit of that vocabulary is found in Chapter 9: Combat. The only leaking of the "Action" that I can think of is probably the casting time for spells, Chapter 7: Using Ability Scores doesn't say that you need an Action to make a Stealth check to hide or anything else, you won't find the word "Action" used in that sense anywhere in that chapter.
Buddy, the Hide action takes an action. The Stealth ability check is used to make said action. Improvised actions can also be ability checks, which require an action. Any non passive is a rolled ability check, which requires an action.
Ability Checks
An ability check tests a character's or monster's innate talent and training in an effort to overcome a challenge. The DM calls for an ability check when a character or monster attempts an action (other than an attack) that has a chance of failure. When the outcome is uncertain, the dice determine the results.
Hide
When you take the Hide action, you make a Dexterity (Stealth) check in an attempt to hide, following the rules for hiding. If you succeed, you gain certain benefits, as described in the "Unseen Attackers and Targets" section later in this chapter.
IMPROVISING AN ACTION
Your character can do things not covered by the actions in this chapter, such as breaking down doors, intimidating enemies, sensing weaknesses in magical defenses, or calling for a parley with a foe. The only limits to the actions you can attempt are your imagination and your character’s ability scores. See the descriptions of the ability scores in chapter 7 for inspiration as you improvise.
When you describe an action not detailed elsewhere in the rules, the DM tells you whether that action is possible and what kind of roll you need to make, if any, to determine success or failure.
I'm not sure what your post is stating. That ability checks aren't actions, or just that the chapter about ability checks doesn't tie them to actions directly? This wouldn't be the first time you have to look up 3 different terms and how they work to get an answer.
All true and overly complicated. Suffice to say, I have players roll OOC initiative just for these reasons. Secondly, they do it because I hate everyone talking at once.
So, to anyone arguing the can' t do actions out of combat paradox. How pray tell, does anyone make a Stealth roll against enemies while out of combat and not having a turn?
You can totally take actions outside of combat. Who said you couldn’t?
All true and overly complicated. Suffice to say, I have players roll OOC initiative just for these reasons. Secondly, they do it because I hate everyone talking at once.
So, to anyone arguing the can' t do actions out of combat paradox. How pray tell, does anyone make a Stealth roll against enemies while out of combat and not having a turn?
You can totally take actions outside of combat. Who said you couldn’t?
Post the RAW on how this is done, please.
Here is a link to the Basic Rules Chapter 7 “Using Ability Scores”
This covers pretty much every action that is not an Attack. If you’ll note, not once does it say anything about only being able to do these things in combat. For example:
An ability check tests a character's or monster's innate talent and training in an effort to overcome a challenge. The DM calls for an ability check when a character or monster attempts an action (other than an attack) that has a chance of failure. When the outcome is uncertain, the dice determine the results.
For every ability check, the DM decides which of the six abilities is relevant to the task at hand and the difficulty of the task, represented by a Difficulty Class. The more difficult a task, the higher its DC. The Typical Difficulty Classes table shows the most common DCs.
If you do any Ability Checks in combat, they would use an Action. But obviously one can make an ability check outside of combat, so those would be actions you can take outside of combat.
Here is a link to a section of Chapter 8, Adventuring, as related to Social challenges:
Exploring dungeons, overcoming obstacles, and slaying monsters are key parts of D&D adventures. No less important, though, are the social interactions that adventurers have with other inhabitants of the world.
Interaction takes on many forms. You might need to convince an unscrupulous thief to confess to some malfeasance, or you might try to flatter a dragon so that it will spare your life. The DM assumes the roles of any characters who are participating in the interaction that don’t belong to another player at the table. Any such character is called a nonplayer character (NPC).
In general terms, an NPC’s attitude toward you is described as friendly, indifferent, or hostile. Friendly NPCs are predisposed to help you, and hostile ones are inclined to get in your way. It’s easier to get what you want from a friendly NPC, of course.
Social interactions have two primary aspects: roleplaying and ability checks.
Note, the very last part mentioning ability checks in social encounters? An ability check would take an Action in combat, but here it is talking about making them in social situations, so clearly they are an action taken outside of combat.
Here is a spell that clearly requires a casting time of 1 Action:
You touch a length of rope that is up to 60 feet long. One end of the rope then rises into the air until the whole rope hangs perpendicular to the ground. At the upper end of the rope, an invisible entrance opens to an extradimensional space that lasts until the spell ends.
The extradimensional space can be reached by climbing to the top of the rope. The space can hold as many as eight Medium or smaller creatures. The rope can be pulled into the space, making the rope disappear from view outside the space.
Attacks and spells can't cross through the entrance into or out of the extradimensional space, but those inside can see out of it as if through a 3-foot-by-5- foot window centered on the rope.
Anything inside the extradimensional space drops out when the spell ends.
* - (powdered corn extract and a twisted loop of parchment)
However most of the time this spell is cast outside of combat to make Short Rests safer. Clearly that is an action one can take outside of combat.
When you are out of combat, either the DM will ask you what you would like to do OR, you let the DM know that you would like to attempt something. That is how actions and ability checks are done out of combat or initiative. I already posted the ability check mechanics and put the relevant part in bold print, Here it is again since you missed it.
Ability Checks
An ability check tests a character's or monster's innate talent and training in an effort to overcome a challenge. The DM calls for an ability check when a character or monster attempts an action (other than an attack) that has a chance of failure. When the outcome is uncertain, the dice determine the results.
When you are out of combat, either the DM will ask you what you would like to do OR, you let the DM know that you would like to attempt something. That is how actions and ability checks are done out of combat or initiative. I already posted the ability check mechanics and put the relevant part in bold print, Here it is again since you missed it.
Ability Checks
An ability check tests a character's or monster's innate talent and training in an effort to overcome a challenge. The DM calls for an ability check when a character or monster attempts an action (other than an attack) that has a chance of failure. When the outcome is uncertain, the dice determine the results.
I didn’t miss it, since it was the very first thing I also quoted. Lemme bring that up for you again, since you missed it. I’ll even make sure you can see it this time:
All true and overly complicated. Suffice to say, I have players roll OOC initiative just for these reasons. Secondly, they do it because I hate everyone talking at once.
So, to anyone arguing the can' t do actions out of combat paradox. How pray tell, does anyone make a Stealth roll against enemies while out of combat and not having a turn?
You can totally take actions outside of combat. Who said you couldn’t?
Post the RAW on how this is done, please.
Here is a link to the Basic Rules Chapter 7 “Using Ability Scores”
This covers pretty much every action that is not an Attack. If you’ll note, not once does it say anything about only being able to do these things in combat. For example:
💥👉An ability check tests a character's or monster's innate talent and training in an effort to overcome a challenge. The DM calls for an ability check when a character or monster attempts an action (other than an attack) that has a chance of failure. When the outcome is uncertain, the dice determine the results.👈💥
For every ability check, the DM decides which of the six abilities is relevant to the task at hand and the difficulty of the task, represented by a Difficulty Class. The more difficult a task, the higher its DC. The Typical Difficulty Classes table shows the most common DCs.
If you do any Ability Checks in combat, they would use an Action. But obviously one can make an ability check outside of combat, so those would be actions you can take outside of combat.
Here is a link to a section of Chapter 8, Adventuring, as related to Social challenges:
Exploring dungeons, overcoming obstacles, and slaying monsters are key parts of D&D adventures. No less important, though, are the social interactions that adventurers have with other inhabitants of the world.
Interaction takes on many forms. You might need to convince an unscrupulous thief to confess to some malfeasance, or you might try to flatter a dragon so that it will spare your life. The DM assumes the roles of any characters who are participating in the interaction that don’t belong to another player at the table. Any such character is called a nonplayer character (NPC).
In general terms, an NPC’s attitude toward you is described as friendly, indifferent, or hostile. Friendly NPCs are predisposed to help you, and hostile ones are inclined to get in your way. It’s easier to get what you want from a friendly NPC, of course.
Social interactions have two primary aspects: roleplaying and ability checks.
Note, the very last part mentioning ability checks in social encounters? An ability check would take an Action in combat, but here it is talking about making them in social situations, so clearly they are an action taken outside of combat.
Here is a spell that clearly requires a casting time of 1 Action:
You touch a length of rope that is up to 60 feet long. One end of the rope then rises into the air until the whole rope hangs perpendicular to the ground. At the upper end of the rope, an invisible entrance opens to an extradimensional space that lasts until the spell ends.
The extradimensional space can be reached by climbing to the top of the rope. The space can hold as many as eight Medium or smaller creatures. The rope can be pulled into the space, making the rope disappear from view outside the space.
Attacks and spells can't cross through the entrance into or out of the extradimensional space, but those inside can see out of it as if through a 3-foot-by-5- foot window centered on the rope.
Anything inside the extradimensional space drops out when the spell ends.
* - (powdered corn extract and a twisted loop of parchment)
However most of the time this spell is cast outside of combat to make Short Rests safer. Clearly that is an action one can take outside of combat.
Just because you aren't in combat doesn't mean it doesn't still take an action. That's just your take on it. Since the only real WRITTEN information says that ability checks are an action, I'll go with that assumption first and let the DM tell me otherwise.
Just because you aren't in combat doesn't mean it doesn't still take an action. That's just your take on it. Since the only real WRITTEN information says that ability checks are an action, I'll go with that assumption first and let the DM tell me otherwise.
Who said it doesn’t take an action?!? Of course it takes a friggin’ action. Why are you arguing against a point I never made? I said, and I’ll quote:
You can totally take actions outside of combat. Who said you couldn’t?
What part of me saying that you can take actions outside of combat implies that it does not actually require an action. Are you even reading my posts, or are you just arguing?
WTF, you’re just wrong on this. You can use skills to make ability checks. In combat, you can also make ability checks with combat applications, many of which take an action to do so in your turn. That is not enough to imply that the action economy, which is ONLY described in the combat chapter, is always running out of combat as well. Both because that is an unwritten assumption we aren’t required or even invited to make, but also because it leads to absurd results (characters taking actions without it being anyone’s turn, back and forth in whatever order they wish without initiative).
Lyxen, I have 2 things to point out, I already mentioned one but, I'll repeat it. Surprise only lasts until the Surprised creature has finished it's turn. If they meant round, that would be a whole different thing. Especially if 5 attackers jumped you and you had no reaction until after the end of said round.
If you lost initiative against 2 attackers, took your turn of doing nothing and completed your turn ending Surprise, you could use Shield when the 3rd through 5th attackers took their actions against you. This is how it could play out as I quoted before as: If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends.
Second thing, you can actually ready an action as if it is out of combat. By your intent to start combat, you force everyone into initiative rolls, whether or not they know that combat is imminent is irrelevant. You declare your action and the trigger. When the trigger occurs, the action takes place. If it is when the highest initiative players is visible to shoot or halfway through the round when the big bad comes along. If the trigger never occurs, you lose your action, that's the price you pay for possibly acting out of turn but, according to circumstance.
I have this happen all the time when hidden enemies plan to attack the party. I have everyone roll initiative. The party may not be "surprised" since they are ready for combat, aware of general threats, but they may be unaware of the exact locations of the current threat. This might give the attacker advantage on their first attack for being unseen but since the party is not surprised they still get their action on the first turn. Instead of trying to guess where the opponent is they use the Ready Action to prepare an attack or cantrip usually targeted at the first enemy that they see.
However, I also have the party roll initiative for non-combat encounters at times. If the order of the party or the NPC saying things (or choosing to take actions) might matter then initiative keeps things organized. The players then have to try to assess whether there is a threat, how serious it might be, and decide whether to wait (dodge or ready an attack perhaps based on the opponent making a hostile move), or to simply attack and assume that the opponent is hostile. However, rolling initiative is just a method of ordering character actions and it is useful if your players realize that this may or may not be a hostile encounter just because initiative is rolled.
The problem with this approach is that if preparing an attack is such a trigger for rolling initiative, you might might spend quite a few rounds before something happens, right ?
I hide behind the door and backstab the first person coming in. What happens ? Do you roll initiative immediately ? Does the enemy have to come in immediately ?
No the PC has set a trigger for rolling initiative, initiative is not roilled until the trigger happens (or somthing else triggers initiative)
Just to be sure, you mean "B is surprised"?
yes sorry
This is fine, even with B entering with a "readied action", again because A is in such a superior situation. My problem is more with the less one-sided cases, in which even a good preparation by A or B is almost always wasted by the system, which is a shame as I do want to incite players to think and prepare.
I don't think it is wasted by the system, if the unprepared B won initiative he would still be surprised so A would get his turn in first (though his speed of reaction on recognising the threat would be he would not be surprised by the time A got to act).
If both parties were prepared (B on hearing the ambush decides to attack as soon as he enters the door) the the partiesare equally prepared noone is surprised and initiative goes as normal
It also allows for players to react to the unexpected and for an attempted ambush to be outsmarted (clearly in this instance either A or B could be an NPC):
B: "I look through my spider familiar's eyes a have it crawlunder the door DM: (possibly after a perception check if they are some distance away) "A spider crawls under the door: Roll Initiave" (A first then B then spider) A: "I keep an eye on the spider but ready an action to shoot at anything small or larger that comes through the door. B: "I continue to look though the spiders eyes and command it to move and dash towards A Spider moves 40ft towards A it is now 20 ft from A A: "I shoot at spider" B: "I come through the door and eldritch blast A
Of course if on A's first move he had decided to ready an action to shoot the spider if it came with 20 foot of him (triggering his reaction on the spiders turn) and his second action was to ready an action to shoot the first thing small or larger that came through the door, A would have got to B first.
Lyxen, I have 2 things to point out, I already mentioned one but, I'll repeat it. Surprise only lasts until the Surprised creature has finished it's turn. If they meant round, that would be a whole different thing. Especially if 5 attackers jumped you and you had no reaction until after the end of said round.
If you lost initiative against 2 attackers, took your turn of doing nothing and completed your turn ending Surprise, you could use Shield when the 3rd through 5th attackers took their actions against you. This is how it could play out as I quoted before as: If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends.
Second thing, you can actually ready an action as if it is out of combat. By your intent to start combat, you force everyone into initiative rolls, whether or not they know that combat is imminent is irrelevant. You declare your action and the trigger. When the trigger occurs, the action takes place. If it is when the highest initiative players is visible to shoot or halfway through the round when the big bad comes along. If the trigger never occurs, you lose your action, that's the price you pay for possibly acting out of turn but, according to circumstance.
I have this happen all the time when hidden enemies plan to attack the party. I have everyone roll initiative. The party may not be "surprised" since they are ready for combat, aware of general threats, but they may be unaware of the exact locations of the current threat. This might give the attacker advantage on their first attack for being unseen but since the party is not surprised they still get their action on the first turn. Instead of trying to guess where the opponent is they use the Ready Action to prepare an attack or cantrip usually targeted at the first enemy that they see.
However, I also have the party roll initiative for non-combat encounters at times. If the order of the party or the NPC saying things (or choosing to take actions) might matter then initiative keeps things organized. The players then have to try to assess whether there is a threat, how serious it might be, and decide whether to wait (dodge or ready an attack perhaps based on the opponent making a hostile move), or to simply attack and assume that the opponent is hostile. However, rolling initiative is just a method of ordering character actions and it is useful if your players realize that this may or may not be a hostile encounter just because initiative is rolled.
Well, apparently David, no one else felt that I had good ideas. Glad someone could see some merit in in them.
WTF, you’re just wrong on this. You can use skills to make ability checks. In combat, you can also make ability checks with combat applications, many of which take an action to do so in your turn. That is not enough to imply that the action economy, which is ONLY described in the combat chapter, is always running out of combat as well. Both because that is an unwritten assumption we aren’t required or even invited to make, but also because it leads to absurd results (characters taking actions without it being anyone’s turn, back and forth in whatever order they wish without initiative).
I already addressed this. Here is my statement and the RAW that I feel supports it.
When you are out of combat, either the DM will ask you what you would like to do OR, you let the DM know that you would like to attempt something. That is how actions and ability checks are done out of combat or initiative. I already posted the ability check mechanics and put the relevant part in bold print.
Ability Checks
An ability check tests a character's or monster's innate talent and training in an effort to overcome a challenge. The DM calls for an ability check when a character or monster attempts an action (other than an attack) that has a chance of failure. When the outcome is uncertain, the dice determine the results.
The DM calls for an ability check. When? When you want to do some thing on your turn. When is it your turn? On you initiative OR when the DM says it is(out of combat without initiative, or out of combat with initiative). That seems pretty simple and reasonable to me. If it doesn't work for you, OK.
Lyxen, why is initiative order outside of combat so hard to understand? Are you trying to tell me when out of combat as a DM, that when you say: "Who would like to do something?" Only one player responds, or that everyone raises their hands or something?
One thing I did forget to mention though, when we roll non combat initiative, it is just a straight roll of d20. It's not really about who is doing what and when. It is about who describes what they are doing first and the sequence order afterwards. This way, everyone is on equal ground to voice their "GOOD" idea which, can reward extra information, advantages or inspiration in our sessions.
That is understandable. In my scenario, sometimes being the first to offer up an idea actually matters. Maybe their class, race or even the mentality of the player can significantly form the same concept into a very different specific idea. I also dislike letting the players freely discuss too much as I would rather have them RP it. Lastly, it has nothing to do with polite or impolite but, more to do with ordered vs unordered resolution of out of combat time.
I generally like your posts and ideas but, when you post something like: in 40+ years of roleplaying I've never had to use anything like "speaking initiative. You come off as an elitist more than an open minded person interested in trying new ideas. I have tried out of combat with and without initiative and I know they both work. So, maybe don't shoot down an idea just because you can't personally see the benefits of it?
As per usual, I can see the validity in everything you state above. You and I handle things only slightly differently in most cases. Just to be a little more clear on why I somewhat "stifle" Open Discussion. It is to prevent the accidental meta-game and people directing another person's character too much. Another big reason, I want the players to be more spontaneous with a plan. If you go to the Archives and Research "Historical Battle Strategies" or spend a good amount of time talking to a military Captain or a war veteran, that is rationale to be able to invest a significant portion of time in open discussion to generate an ironclad plan. Last thing to consider, if you have ever watched Matt Colville's video on player types, he is so dead on correct.
Not all players take equal active interest in planning, scouting, investigating or social RPing to mention a few things. Keeping the open discussion periods generally short but, sweet..allows everyone some time to do what they have the most interest in doing.
I always try to present my ideas not as the best way to do things but, as an optional way that MAY work best for some.
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I don't think the nomenclature is exactly helpful here.
"OK, so there isn't a surprise round. Absolutely not. What we have instead is a round for only non-surprised creatures. Completely different, obviously! Not a surprise round."
Obv
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The round isn't only for non-surprised creatures. Surprised creatures roll initiative and take a turn in the first round of combat just like anyone else, they just can't Move or take an Action during their turn (RAI, probably can't take Bonus Actions either), nor take a Reaction until after their turn has finished. This no more removes them from the round than Stunned, Paralyzed, etc do. Imprecise language leads to misremembered rules and unbalanced play at the table, its worth learning how Surprise works and playing it by the book instead of just hand waiving it and talking about "surprise rounds."
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Buddy, the Hide action takes an action. The Stealth ability check is used to make said action. Improvised actions can also be ability checks, which require an action. Any non passive is a rolled ability check, which requires an action.
Ability Checks
An ability check tests a character's or monster's innate talent and training in an effort to overcome a challenge. The DM calls for an ability check when a character or monster attempts an action (other than an attack) that has a chance of failure. When the outcome is uncertain, the dice determine the results.
Hide
When you take the Hide action, you make a Dexterity (Stealth) check in an attempt to hide, following the rules for hiding. If you succeed, you gain certain benefits, as described in the "Unseen Attackers and Targets" section later in this chapter.
IMPROVISING AN ACTION
Your character can do things not covered by the actions in this chapter, such as breaking down doors, intimidating enemies, sensing weaknesses in magical defenses, or calling for a parley with a foe. The only limits to the actions you can attempt are your imagination and your character’s ability scores. See the descriptions of the ability scores in chapter 7 for inspiration as you improvise.
When you describe an action not detailed elsewhere in the rules, the DM tells you whether that action is possible and what kind of roll you need to make, if any, to determine success or failure.
I'm not sure what your post is stating. That ability checks aren't actions, or just that the chapter about ability checks doesn't tie them to actions directly? This wouldn't be the first time you have to look up 3 different terms and how they work to get an answer.
Post the RAW on how this is done, please.
Here is a link to the Basic Rules Chapter 7 “Using Ability Scores”
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/using-ability-scores
This covers pretty much every action that is not an Attack. If you’ll note, not once does it say anything about only being able to do these things in combat. For example:
If you do any Ability Checks in combat, they would use an Action. But obviously one can make an ability check outside of combat, so those would be actions you can take outside of combat.
Here is a link to a section of Chapter 8, Adventuring, as related to Social challenges:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/adventuring#SocialInteraction
Note, the very last part mentioning ability checks in social encounters? An ability check would take an Action in combat, but here it is talking about making them in social situations, so clearly they are an action taken outside of combat.
Here is a spell that clearly requires a casting time of 1 Action:
However most of the time this spell is cast outside of combat to make Short Rests safer. Clearly that is an action one can take outside of combat.
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Too long. Here is the explanation needed.
When you are out of combat, either the DM will ask you what you would like to do OR, you let the DM know that you would like to attempt something. That is how actions and ability checks are done out of combat or initiative. I already posted the ability check mechanics and put the relevant part in bold print, Here it is again since you missed it.
Ability Checks
An ability check tests a character's or monster's innate talent and training in an effort to overcome a challenge. The DM calls for an ability check when a character or monster attempts an action (other than an attack) that has a chance of failure. When the outcome is uncertain, the dice determine the results.
I didn’t miss it, since it was the very first thing I also quoted. Lemme bring that up for you again, since you missed it. I’ll even make sure you can see it this time:
Asshat.
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Just because you aren't in combat doesn't mean it doesn't still take an action. That's just your take on it. Since the only real WRITTEN information says that ability checks are an action, I'll go with that assumption first and let the DM tell me otherwise.
Who said it doesn’t take an action?!? Of course it takes a friggin’ action. Why are you arguing against a point I never made? I said, and I’ll quote:
What part of me saying that you can take actions outside of combat implies that it does not actually require an action. Are you even reading my posts, or are you just arguing?
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WTF, you’re just wrong on this. You can use skills to make ability checks. In combat, you can also make ability checks with combat applications, many of which take an action to do so in your turn. That is not enough to imply that the action economy, which is ONLY described in the combat chapter, is always running out of combat as well. Both because that is an unwritten assumption we aren’t required or even invited to make, but also because it leads to absurd results (characters taking actions without it being anyone’s turn, back and forth in whatever order they wish without initiative).
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I have this happen all the time when hidden enemies plan to attack the party. I have everyone roll initiative. The party may not be "surprised" since they are ready for combat, aware of general threats, but they may be unaware of the exact locations of the current threat. This might give the attacker advantage on their first attack for being unseen but since the party is not surprised they still get their action on the first turn. Instead of trying to guess where the opponent is they use the Ready Action to prepare an attack or cantrip usually targeted at the first enemy that they see.
However, I also have the party roll initiative for non-combat encounters at times. If the order of the party or the NPC saying things (or choosing to take actions) might matter then initiative keeps things organized. The players then have to try to assess whether there is a threat, how serious it might be, and decide whether to wait (dodge or ready an attack perhaps based on the opponent making a hostile move), or to simply attack and assume that the opponent is hostile. However, rolling initiative is just a method of ordering character actions and it is useful if your players realize that this may or may not be a hostile encounter just because initiative is rolled.
No the PC has set a trigger for rolling initiative, initiative is not roilled until the trigger happens (or somthing else triggers initiative)
yes sorry
I don't think it is wasted by the system, if the unprepared B won initiative he would still be surprised so A would get his turn in first (though his speed of reaction on recognising the threat would be he would not be surprised by the time A got to act).
If both parties were prepared (B on hearing the ambush decides to attack as soon as he enters the door) the the partiesare equally prepared noone is surprised and initiative goes as normal
It also allows for players to react to the unexpected and for an attempted ambush to be outsmarted (clearly in this instance either A or B could be an NPC):
B: "I look through my spider familiar's eyes a have it crawlunder the door
DM: (possibly after a perception check if they are some distance away) "A spider crawls under the door: Roll Initiave" (A first then B then spider)
A: "I keep an eye on the spider but ready an action to shoot at anything small or larger that comes through the door.
B: "I continue to look though the spiders eyes and command it to move and dash towards A
Spider moves 40ft towards A it is now 20 ft from A
A: "I shoot at spider"
B: "I come through the door and eldritch blast A
Of course if on A's first move he had decided to ready an action to shoot the spider if it came with 20 foot of him (triggering his reaction on the spiders turn) and his second action was to ready an action to shoot the first thing small or larger that came through the door, A would have got to B first.
Well, apparently David, no one else felt that I had good ideas. Glad someone could see some merit in in them.
I already addressed this. Here is my statement and the RAW that I feel supports it.
When you are out of combat, either the DM will ask you what you would like to do OR, you let the DM know that you would like to attempt something. That is how actions and ability checks are done out of combat or initiative. I already posted the ability check mechanics and put the relevant part in bold print.
Ability Checks
An ability check tests a character's or monster's innate talent and training in an effort to overcome a challenge. The DM calls for an ability check when a character or monster attempts an action (other than an attack) that has a chance of failure. When the outcome is uncertain, the dice determine the results.
The DM calls for an ability check. When? When you want to do some thing on your turn. When is it your turn? On you initiative OR when the DM says it is(out of combat without initiative, or out of combat with initiative). That seems pretty simple and reasonable to me. If it doesn't work for you, OK.
Lyxen, why is initiative order outside of combat so hard to understand? Are you trying to tell me when out of combat as a DM, that when you say: "Who would like to do something?" Only one player responds, or that everyone raises their hands or something?
One thing I did forget to mention though, when we roll non combat initiative, it is just a straight roll of d20. It's not really about who is doing what and when. It is about who describes what they are doing first and the sequence order afterwards. This way, everyone is on equal ground to voice their "GOOD" idea which, can reward extra information, advantages or inspiration in our sessions.
That is understandable. In my scenario, sometimes being the first to offer up an idea actually matters. Maybe their class, race or even the mentality of the player can significantly form the same concept into a very different specific idea. I also dislike letting the players freely discuss too much as I would rather have them RP it. Lastly, it has nothing to do with polite or impolite but, more to do with ordered vs unordered resolution of out of combat time.
I generally like your posts and ideas but, when you post something like: in 40+ years of roleplaying I've never had to use anything like "speaking initiative. You come off as an elitist more than an open minded person interested in trying new ideas. I have tried out of combat with and without initiative and I know they both work. So, maybe don't shoot down an idea just because you can't personally see the benefits of it?
As per usual, I can see the validity in everything you state above. You and I handle things only slightly differently in most cases. Just to be a little more clear on why I somewhat "stifle" Open Discussion. It is to prevent the accidental meta-game and people directing another person's character too much. Another big reason, I want the players to be more spontaneous with a plan. If you go to the Archives and Research "Historical Battle Strategies" or spend a good amount of time talking to a military Captain or a war veteran, that is rationale to be able to invest a significant portion of time in open discussion to generate an ironclad plan. Last thing to consider, if you have ever watched Matt Colville's video on player types, he is so dead on correct.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQsJSqn71Fw Someone posted this here before so, thank you for that, I will now share it again.
Not all players take equal active interest in planning, scouting, investigating or social RPing to mention a few things. Keeping the open discussion periods generally short but, sweet..allows everyone some time to do what they have the most interest in doing.
I always try to present my ideas not as the best way to do things but, as an optional way that MAY work best for some.