This whole thing could have been prevented if they had put “—“ instead of “0” like Games Workshop does.
Right. Walking speed of 0 feet is deliberate. Zero =/= null. The walking speed is quantifiable, therefore it can be enhanced & hindered by any applicable effect.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Creatures that are hit by Sentinel or Grappled have their speed set to 0, but they don't "have no form of ground-based locomotion." Longstrider on them doesn't raise their speed to 10, because it remains constantly re-set to 0 by their condition... but I think it's a clear enough indication that you can't use "Speed 0" in a statblock as a synonym for "has no form of ground-based locomotion."
Whatever, the language is imprecise here, I doubt the authors ever thought about what would happen if you cast Longstrider on creature with Speed 0 instead of a blank speed entry, chalk it up to poor editing and playtesting. It's an amusing interaction, and not worth nerfing, even if it wasn't RAI.
No, but what it does say is that creatures that "have no form of ground-based locomotion" still have a speed of zero. Maybe they're not synonymous, but it certainly works in one direction. And longstrider still doesn't add modes of locomotion, does it?
Actually, this renewed discussion brings me to my point: I think the problem is with longstrider. Longstrider should probably say if it applies to other modes of movement (as written, it only applies to walking speed) and what it does if the creature has a zero walking speed. For me in the absence of that, I would probably houserule that it increases your primary (largest distance) mode of locomotion by 10' only.
Or maybe it is fine for any creature to just have 10' of movement at the cost of a first level spell.
Something else just occurred to me in regards to this. Someone may have brought it up, but I’m not skimming all 7 pages to check so if they did then here it is again:
The grappled specifically states “A grappled creature's speed becomes 0, and it can't benefit from any bonus to its speed.” That specific statement heavily implies to me that a creature can normally benefit from a bonus to its speed, even if that speed is normally 0.
I don't know if this was brought up, but how much movement and which movement does a shark have to use to "stand up" from being knocked prone? Is that answer the same if the shark is in water or out?
This is relevant because the description of being prone talks only about "speed" just like longstrider. If "speed" means only walking speed, then a shark can never remove the prone from itself. Seems an obvious statement that a shark can't stand up, but that implies that it is immensely powerful to apply prone to creatures without a walking speed. On the other hand, if "speed" means "primary speed" or "largest speed" or "any speed" then that is quite different. That also seems to be the crux of the discussion here.
Can a giant octopus use 5 feet (half of its walking speed) to "stand up" then use the rest of its swim speed?
Technically speaking, “prone” means flag on ones stomach, and “supine” means flat on one’s back. In the case of something like a shark I conceive of “being prone” as meaning “supine” and then “standing up” as a function of flipping back over.
The condition Prone doesn’t really rely on the creature being in the “prone position,” only having some game effect apply that condition to a creature.
Technically speaking, “prone” means flag on ones stomach, and “supine” means flat on one’s back. In the case of something like a shark I conceive of “being prone” as meaning “supine” and then “standing up” as a function of flipping back over.
The dorsal gets in the way of being truly supine though. It would either not be supine or would be badly injured from its dorsal not being designed to hold its weight like that. Or both. However not sure that it makes sense for any given spell that would knock a bipedal target prone to literally flip something already prone (bipedal or not) over on its back, nor is there any text in the spell suggesting that.
Jeese... 🙄 Okay then, “lateral recumbent position.” Oy
Technically speaking, “prone” means flag on ones stomach, and “supine” means flat on one’s back. In the case of something like a shark I conceive of “being prone” as meaning “supine” and then “standing up” as a function of flipping back over.
The dorsal gets in the way of being truly supine though. It would either not be supine or would be badly injured from its dorsal not being designed to hold its weight like that. Or both. However not sure that it makes sense for any given spell that would knock a bipedal target prone to literally flip something already prone (bipedal or not) over on its back, nor is there any text in the spell suggesting that.
Jeese... 🙄 Okay then, “lateral recumbent position.” Oy
My point is that no such ability specifies 'If they are already prone or naturally prone, it puts them in some other position actually inconvenient to them.' Or if there is, please quote it. It does not make someone or something already prone 'super-prone.'
You're failing to recognize the difference between being prone, in the vernacular sense, and suffering from the prone condition. These are different things. Abilities impose a condition. The name of that condition is maybe inappropriate for a small minority of creature body configurations, but having a separate, mechanically identical condition with a different name just to satisfy someone's semantic pedantry is stupid.
Technically speaking, “prone” means flag on ones stomach, and “supine” means flat on one’s back. In the case of something like a shark I conceive of “being prone” as meaning “supine” and then “standing up” as a function of flipping back over.
The dorsal gets in the way of being truly supine though. It would either not be supine or would be badly injured from its dorsal not being designed to hold its weight like that. Or both. However not sure that it makes sense for any given spell that would knock a bipedal target prone to literally flip something already prone (bipedal or not) over on its back, nor is there any text in the spell suggesting that.
Jeese... 🙄 Okay then, “lateral recumbent position.” Oy
My point is that no such ability specifies 'If they are already prone or naturally prone, it puts them in some other position actually inconvenient to them.' Or if there is, please quote it. It does not make someone or something already prone 'super-prone.'
It has nothing to do with being physically prone per se. It just means that the creature has certain penalties from which they do not normally suffer. They had to name it something, and since the vast majority of PCs are humanoid “prone” made sense. They could have called it “kerfuffled” and it would still mean the same thing. Specifically:
Prone (Kerfuffled if it’s a Shark and you’re playing with Kotath)
A prone (kerfuffled) creature's only movement option is to crawl (flop), unless it stands up (unkerfuffles itself) and thereby ends the condition.
The creature has disadvantage on attack rolls.
An attack roll against the creature has advantage if the attacker is within 5 feet of the creature. Otherwise, the attack roll has disadvantage.
Why the heck are you so hung up with the label when it’s the condition rules that actually matter?
If a sniper is prone and are hit by an ability would normally knock them prone, they are not knocked 'super prone.' It does not suddenly require them a full move (2 x half moves) to stand up. Nor do such abilities equate to 'posers.' They knock targets prone. Period. They do not let the user choose some other more inconvenient position to place the target into.
A sniper is already prone so no additional condition is applied. The point is, effects that knock a creature prone just apply specific penalties.
I think you may be getting too wrapped up in semantics. The game doesn't care how a condition comes about or it's exact definition, only the effect; sacrifices to realism have to be made for the sake of convenience. If you choose to run things differently, fair enough, but that's beyond the scope of the game as currently written.
(Now, if you're arguing that 5e is overly simplistic and stupid and needs to change: Yes. Yes it is.)
Please, point to where the rules say that sharks, snakes, and similar creatures suffer from the prone condition under normal circumstances.
Where does it say they do not? They are naturally prone, i.e. on their bellies. Or does a humanoid that naturally falls prone not count as prone ?
Any creature can voluntarily suffer from the condition. What that looks like in physical reality depends on the creature; you’re far too invested in the non-rules meaning of the word. Does this always make sense? No. If I were of a mind to houserule something that made more sense, I’d say snakes are immune to the prone condition and a shark on land always suffers from it.
But this is the Rule and Game Mechanics forum. Establishing what the rules actually are is a necessary first step before deciding if something else would make more sense.
There may not be a direct consequence for blatantly bad faith arguments, but for forum users that plan to hang around Rules & Game Mechanics in the future, you have to understand that people have memories, and view your future posts in light of those that come before. Just something to keep in mind.
But nowhere does anything say that “being on one’s belly” is the prerequisite for the prone condition. It’s a specific condition that has to be applied, not a default for something like a snake.
Your interpretation is the houserule, not the rest of ours.
There may not be a direct consequence for blatantly bad faith arguments, but for forum users that plan to hang around Rules & Game Mechanics in the future, you have to understand that people have memories, and view your future posts in light of those that come before. Just something to keep in mind.
Out of curiosity, to whom was this addressed, and in regards to which post?
Okay, but hear me out here... Shorse.
Right. Walking speed of 0 feet is deliberate. Zero =/= null. The walking speed is quantifiable, therefore it can be enhanced & hindered by any applicable effect.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
No, but what it does say is that creatures that "have no form of ground-based locomotion" still have a speed of zero. Maybe they're not synonymous, but it certainly works in one direction. And longstrider still doesn't add modes of locomotion, does it?
Actually, this renewed discussion brings me to my point: I think the problem is with longstrider. Longstrider should probably say if it applies to other modes of movement (as written, it only applies to walking speed) and what it does if the creature has a zero walking speed. For me in the absence of that, I would probably houserule that it increases your primary (largest distance) mode of locomotion by 10' only.
Or maybe it is fine for any creature to just have 10' of movement at the cost of a first level spell.
Personally, I would have gone with Land Shark myself.
Then there is JabberJaw
Something else just occurred to me in regards to this. Someone may have brought it up, but I’m not skimming all 7 pages to check so if they did then here it is again:
The grappled specifically states “A grappled creature's speed becomes 0, and it can't benefit from any bonus to its speed.” That specific statement heavily implies to me that a creature can normally benefit from a bonus to its speed, even if that speed is normally 0.
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I don't know if this was brought up, but how much movement and which movement does a shark have to use to "stand up" from being knocked prone? Is that answer the same if the shark is in water or out?
This is relevant because the description of being prone talks only about "speed" just like longstrider. If "speed" means only walking speed, then a shark can never remove the prone from itself. Seems an obvious statement that a shark can't stand up, but that implies that it is immensely powerful to apply prone to creatures without a walking speed. On the other hand, if "speed" means "primary speed" or "largest speed" or "any speed" then that is quite different. That also seems to be the crux of the discussion here.
Can a giant octopus use 5 feet (half of its walking speed) to "stand up" then use the rest of its swim speed?
Technically speaking, “prone” means flag on ones stomach, and “supine” means flat on one’s back. In the case of something like a shark I conceive of “being prone” as meaning “supine” and then “standing up” as a function of flipping back over.
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The condition Prone doesn’t really rely on the creature being in the “prone position,” only having some game effect apply that condition to a creature.
Jeese... 🙄 Okay then, “lateral recumbent position.” Oy
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You're failing to recognize the difference between being prone, in the vernacular sense, and suffering from the prone condition. These are different things. Abilities impose a condition. The name of that condition is maybe inappropriate for a small minority of creature body configurations, but having a separate, mechanically identical condition with a different name just to satisfy someone's semantic pedantry is stupid.
It has nothing to do with being physically prone per se. It just means that the creature has certain penalties from which they do not normally suffer. They had to name it something, and since the vast majority of PCs are humanoid “prone” made sense. They could have called it “kerfuffled” and it would still mean the same thing. Specifically:
Prone (Kerfuffled if it’s a Shark and you’re playing with Kotath)
prone(kerfuffled) creature's only movement option is tocrawl(flop), unless itstands up(unkerfuffles itself) and thereby ends the condition.Why the heck are you so hung up with the label when it’s the condition rules that actually matter?
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A sniper is already prone so no additional condition is applied. The point is, effects that knock a creature prone just apply specific penalties.
I think you may be getting too wrapped up in semantics. The game doesn't care how a condition comes about or it's exact definition, only the effect; sacrifices to realism have to be made for the sake of convenience. If you choose to run things differently, fair enough, but that's beyond the scope of the game as currently written.
(Now, if you're arguing that 5e is overly simplistic and stupid and needs to change: Yes. Yes it is.)
Please, point to where the rules say that sharks, snakes, and similar creatures suffer from the prone condition under normal circumstances.
Any creature can voluntarily suffer from the condition. What that looks like in physical reality depends on the creature; you’re far too invested in the non-rules meaning of the word. Does this always make sense? No. If I were of a mind to houserule something that made more sense, I’d say snakes are immune to the prone condition and a shark on land always suffers from it.
But this is the Rule and Game Mechanics forum. Establishing what the rules actually are is a necessary first step before deciding if something else would make more sense.
There may not be a direct consequence for blatantly bad faith arguments, but for forum users that plan to hang around Rules & Game Mechanics in the future, you have to understand that people have memories, and view your future posts in light of those that come before. Just something to keep in mind.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
But nowhere does anything say that “being on one’s belly” is the prerequisite for the prone condition. It’s a specific condition that has to be applied, not a default for something like a snake.
Your interpretation is the houserule, not the rest of ours.
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Out of curiosity, to whom was this addressed, and in regards to which post?
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