So I have a cleric in my game who took Magic Initiate; Wizard. He chose an Owl as his familiar, at the time I was thinking "Ok, whatever floats your boat". This past session he decided to whip out this combo on me, and have the Owl deliver a touch spell attack. At first I was thinking he was going to use it to do Inflict Wounds, which had me a little concerned. But instead he used Shocking Grasp, a little less yikes, but still.
So I had to pause the game to figure out how exactly this was going to work. From my 5 minutes of research, here is what I settled on in the moment. He could do this provided he, readies his spell and holds until the Owl goes, the Owl moves and gets into melee range, he uses his reaction to cast the spell through his familiar using his Spell attack modifier, then using the Owl's Fly-by BS ability, escape for free and still dash.
Now on the surface I think this is ridiculous, part of what gates touch spells from being too good is that they require a spell caster to get into melee. Additionally, the Find Familiar spell says specifically that a familiar cannot attack.
Looking past that, what does this cost him? First, he still has to roll to hit, so this could miss. Second, hit or miss, he burns his character's action and reaction to do this. Third, he took a feat to have access to this in lieu of an ASI.
So my question, did I rule this correctly? I think I read somewhere that the Owl loses its reaction as well, but I did not quiet see how that is. Also, would he roll an attack using his Spell Attack modifier or the Owls? My justification of using the Owl's would be that the owl is rolling to hit, not him. But that would mean the Owl is attacking, breaking the rule of the spell, right?
Per the Find Familiar spell, that would be a house rule directly contradicting the spell's description. When you use a familiar to deliver a touch spell, it says: "If the spell requires an attack roll, you use your attack modifier for the roll."
Also, per FF, he burns his own action and the familiar burns it's reaction. He is not readying an action, he is simply casting it through the familiar.
This is not abusive or a problem at all, he is using:
His action to cast the spell
His familiar's reaction
He does gain the range of the familiar, which is one of the uses of the familiar spell.
Honestly, as he is using an attack spell, this is not really abusive. That is what the spell is intended for. The real thing is for clerics to use this combo for NON-attack spells, such as:
Lesser Restoration, Warding Bond, Feign Death.
Real potential abuses would include the higher level spells, such as
Meld into Stone (Not sure this is legal as it says you must move into the stone, not merely touch it - DM call)
So I have a cleric in my game who took Magic Initiate; Wizard. He chose an Owl as his familiar, at the time I was thinking "Ok, whatever floats your boat". This past session he decided to whip out this combo on me, and have the Owl deliver a touch spell attack. At first I was thinking he was going to use it to do Inflict Wounds, which had me a little concerned. But instead he used Shocking Grasp, a little less yikes, but still.
So I had to pause the game to figure out how exactly this was going to work. From my 5 minutes of research, here is what I settled on in the moment. He could do this provided he, readies his spell and holds until the Owl goes, the Owl moves and gets into melee range, he uses his reaction to cast the spell through his familiar using his Spell attack modifier, then using the Owl's Fly-by BS ability, escape for free and still dash.
Now on the surface I think this is ridiculous, part of what gates touch spells from being too good is that they require a spell caster to get into melee. Additionally, the Find Familiar spell says specifically that a familiar cannot attack.
Looking past that, what does this cost him? First, he still has to roll to hit, so this could miss. Second, hit or miss, he burns his character's action and reaction to do this. Third, he took a feat to have access to this in lieu of an ASI.
So my question, did I rule this correctly? I think I read somewhere that the Owl loses its reaction as well, but I did not quiet see how that is. Also, would he roll an attack using his Spell Attack modifier or the Owls? My justification of using the Owl's would be that the owl is rolling to hit, not him. But that would mean the Owl is attacking, breaking the rule of the spell, right?
You did not rule correctly (by RAW), but close. From Find Familiar:
Finally, when you cast a spell with a range of touch, your familiar can deliver the spell as if it had cast the spell. Your familiar must be within 100 feet of you, and it must use its reaction to deliver the spell when you cast it. If the spell requires an attack roll, you use your attack modifier for the roll.
The main interaction occurs on the player's turn. They cast the spell as normal, and the familiar uses its reaction to deliver the spell.
The rub is that (if you're adhering strictly to RAW) the familiar has its own initiative, so it has to use its turn to get into position. It then waits for the PC to cast the spell on their turn. Therefore, the familiar does not have the ability to move after delivering the spell, and the Flyby feature is nulled. They're stuck in place until their next turn.
That's bullshit for a lot of reasons, but (aside from flyby) mainly because of what happens in-between the familiar's turn and the PC caster's turn. Independent initiatives means a PC could be acting at equidistant ends of the initiative order. Say you've positioned the familiar to deliver a touch spell, but the intended target goes before you do. They could move out of range, undoing your entire setup, or just straight up kill your 1-2HP familiar floating next to them. Another PC may kill your intended target, or otherwise get in the way of what you're trying to accomplish.
5e did not handle companion creatures well, and the same problem plagues mounts as well--your mount moves on its own turn, so the entire concept of being able to break up your movement between attacks is flat-out broken for mounted combat. This is why damn near every DM I know (myself included) just lets familiars/mounts act on the same turn as their player, and calling it a day. The side effect of this is leaving the door open to flyby touch spells. Personally, I feel like that's closer to the intended interaction than awkwardly trying to work in a companion creature's unique initiative.
Soo... pick your poison: do you follow RAW strictly at the expense of bumming out your player(s), or do you go for a simplified resolution by letting the familiar do its stuff on the same turn as the player?
I recommend the latter option for one key reason: you can kill the familiar at any time. Regardless of how you're handling initiative(s), if the player is using their familiar to deliver touch spells, then the familiar is on the field (not in pocket-dimension). If you think they're leaning on the feature too heavily, pop it. Catch it in an AoE, or shoot it out of the sky. Even the dumbest enemy creatures aren't that dumb... they won't ignore a bird that's shooting lightning at them.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
So the cleric can use the Ready Action to set up a Reaction, which is casting "Shocking Grasp" when the familiar is next to an enemy. Then both the cleric and the familiar burn their Reaction to deliver it on the familiar's turn.
1) On caster's turn, caster Readies a touch cantrip, triggered to be cast through the familiar when the familiar is within range. (Uses their action). (They can move however they like).
2) On familiar's turn, familiar flies by, caster uses their reaction and familiar uses its reaction both to deliver the touch spell. (The caster needs to use their reaction because you use a reaction to trigger a readied action, the familiar needs to use their reaction because the Find Familiar spell says so.) And as specified in Find Familiar, you use the caster's attack modifier (it's still the caster doing the spellcasting.)
3) Familiar gets to keep moving and/or use its own action, which it could use to dash if it wanted.
Seems reasonable. Basically using up both the caster's and the familiar's reactions to make a touch spell through the familiar, which is exactly what Find Familiar says you can do.
...it doesn't really seem brokenly powerful, anyway. Shocking Grasp does the same damage as Sacred Flame and less than Toll The Dead (also cleric cantrips); Inflict Wounds would do a few points more than Guiding Bolt (level 1 cleric damage spell), but overall it's not like the cleric got themselves a big powerup in damage.
It looks fine, mechanically. I think you ruled okay. Just remember that, under most circumstances, shocking grasp is a wizard spell and not a cleric spell. This means Intelligence is the spellcasting ability, not Wisdom. Their spell attack bonus would likely be smaller, but if they're using it agains't a target wearing metal armor they'd have advantage anyway.
So the cleric can use the Ready Action to set up a Reaction, which is casting "Shocking Grasp" when the familiar is next to an enemy. Then both the cleric and the familiar burn their Reaction to deliver it on the familiar's turn.
If the Familiar is not touching the target, then yes, this is how it would have to work.
But if the Familiar is already touching the target, then there is no need to Ready the Action, and therefore no reason for the PC to spend their reaction.
It really all depends on if the Familiar is already on target or not.
I have this happen occasionally. Cast spell, owl flybys and touches the bad guy with the casters spell attack. No problem. Just remember an owl is made of glass, any hit kills it. And most monsters above 10 INT will kill the bird.
Solution: have an enemy with ranged attack shoot the owl. With the low AC and tiny hit points its an easy target. There are also AoEs. There's also ways to ward areas against fey, fiends and celestials - some prevent entry others damage them (see Forbiddance)
It's not a big deal, honestly. Sure they can use some touch spells remotely, but they're using up resources to do so, and it all relies on position and initiative order. It's not that big of a benefit, and you can easily remove that benefit by just attacking the owl. Don't forget, enemies can ready actions as well. You can have an enemy ready an action to attack the owl as soon as it gets within range.
The only familiar/touch-spell abuse I've come across is flock of familiars, glyph of warding and a spell gem, to instantly place spell traps up to a mile away. Anything less, is not abuse and easily sorted.
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I absolutely love the house rule where the animal goes immediately before or after the player (their choice). It makes combat just a bit less convoluted.
It's not the end of the world to have a flying taser. There's the chance a player loses their little scout, which they may wish they had available later. It's just a question of how best to use resources.
Upon further review, it looks like everyone is more or less saying the same thing. I house rule that summons go on the corresponding summoner's turn, because then my initiative would be miles long in some cases. So with that rule it would go as follows.
Player moves, uses ready action to cast Shocking Grasp.
Owl goes, moves and flies into melee with target.
Player uses reaction to release his spell through the Owl.
Owl, uses its reaction to channel the spell through it.
Owl uses action to Dash away.
In terms of action economy I find this to be satisfactory (I just really hate fly-by + Dash, lol). Plus as you have pointed out, basic mobs with an average brain would recognize the threat.Then if the Owl dies, it has a literal gold cost.
Did I mention that this is in a Curse of Strahd campaign? Where gold is not plentiful and items have 5 times their cost (including spell regents, *evil laugh*).
Did I mention that this is in a Curse of Strahd campaign? Where gold is not plentiful and items have 5 times their cost (including spell regents, *evil laugh*).
You don't have to use a ready action, you can just... cast it through familiar. If you use ready action there is a chance your trigger doesn't happen (this is taken care of with house rule... But ready action uses YOUR reaction on step 3 in this case...which you didn't have to lose).
step 5 means the owl can get an OA on it (probably insta death). Instead of dashing you can disengage & use movement (if there is any left)
Since the Familiar gets its own initiative RAW and does not necessarily go on the same initiative as its caster, that doesn’t always work. Some times you have to Ready the action because your Familiar isn’t touching your target.
You don't have to use a ready action, you can just... cast it through familiar. If you use ready action there is a chance your trigger doesn't happen (this is taken care of with house rule... But ready action uses YOUR reaction on step 3 in this case...which you didn't have to lose).
step 5 means the owl can get an OA on it (probably insta death). Instead of dashing you can disengage & use movement (if there is any left)
Owl can't get an OA due to its Flyby feature. Most people use an owl as familiar due to this feature.
Solution: have an enemy with ranged attack shoot the owl. With the low AC and tiny hit points its an easy target. There are also AoEs. There's also ways to ward areas against fey, fiends and celestials - some prevent entry others damage them (see Forbiddance)
It's not a big deal, honestly. Sure they can use some touch spells remotely, but they're using up resources to do so, and it all relies on position and initiative order. It's not that big of a benefit, and you can easily remove that benefit by just attacking the owl. Don't forget, enemies can ready actions as well. You can have an enemy ready an action to attack the owl as soon as it gets within range.
The only familiar/touch-spell abuse I've come across is flock of familiars, glyph of warding and a spell gem, to instantly place spell traps up to a mile away. Anything less, is not abuse and easily sorted.
Although with Pact of the Chain Warlock, you can have your invisible Imp use its reaction to cast the touch spell, then immediately after use its Action to cast invisibility back on itself and fly away. Now if the enemy wants to attack it they're trying to attack an invisible target. And caster could keep doing this over and over with as many touch spells as it likes (well and has the spell slots for).
Solution: have an enemy with ranged attack shoot the owl. With the low AC and tiny hit points its an easy target. There are also AoEs. There's also ways to ward areas against fey, fiends and celestials - some prevent entry others damage them (see Forbiddance)
It's not a big deal, honestly. Sure they can use some touch spells remotely, but they're using up resources to do so, and it all relies on position and initiative order. It's not that big of a benefit, and you can easily remove that benefit by just attacking the owl. Don't forget, enemies can ready actions as well. You can have an enemy ready an action to attack the owl as soon as it gets within range.
The only familiar/touch-spell abuse I've come across is flock of familiars, glyph of warding and a spell gem, to instantly place spell traps up to a mile away. Anything less, is not abuse and easily sorted.
Although with Pact of the Chain Warlock, you can have your invisible Imp use its reaction to cast the touch spell, then immediately after use its Action to cast invisibility back on itself and fly away. Now if the enemy wants to attack it they're trying to attack an invisible target. And caster could keep doing this over and over with as many touch spells as it likes (well and has the spell slots for).
The imp acts on its own initiative. This means it doesn't necessarily get to act right away, and even if it is invisible it isn't hidden. Its general location can still be known, and it can be targeted by an area of effect. You have to break line of sight to lose pursuing eyes.
Solution: have an enemy with ranged attack shoot the owl. With the low AC and tiny hit points its an easy target. There are also AoEs. There's also ways to ward areas against fey, fiends and celestials - some prevent entry others damage them (see Forbiddance)
It's not a big deal, honestly. Sure they can use some touch spells remotely, but they're using up resources to do so, and it all relies on position and initiative order. It's not that big of a benefit, and you can easily remove that benefit by just attacking the owl. Don't forget, enemies can ready actions as well. You can have an enemy ready an action to attack the owl as soon as it gets within range.
The only familiar/touch-spell abuse I've come across is flock of familiars, glyph of warding and a spell gem, to instantly place spell traps up to a mile away. Anything less, is not abuse and easily sorted.
Although with Pact of the Chain Warlock, you can have your invisible Imp use its reaction to cast the touch spell, then immediately after use its Action to cast invisibility back on itself and fly away. Now if the enemy wants to attack it they're trying to attack an invisible target. And caster could keep doing this over and over with as many touch spells as it likes (well and has the spell slots for).
The imp acts on its own initiative. This means it doesn't necessarily get to act right away, and even if it is invisible it isn't hidden. Its general location can still be known, and it can be targeted by an area of effect. You have to break line of sight to lose pursuing eyes.
True, but if you used your Ready Action to cast only when your Imp gets close enough to the target to trigger it, then the casting would trigger on the Imp's turn once it moves close enough to cast the spell (using both your reaction and the Imp's reaction), and then the Imp will use its Action to cast invisibility. And depending on your DM they may have disadvantage or may have to do a perception check because likely after going Invisible, if your Imp still has movement (it has 40 ft flying so probably) it will move away from the enemy.
If it stayed beside the enemy and invisible i'd say yes strictly just disadvantage then, but if it moves away while invisible it makes it harder (but not impossible) to determine which way it went, in my opinion at least.
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So I have a cleric in my game who took Magic Initiate; Wizard. He chose an Owl as his familiar, at the time I was thinking "Ok, whatever floats your boat". This past session he decided to whip out this combo on me, and have the Owl deliver a touch spell attack. At first I was thinking he was going to use it to do Inflict Wounds, which had me a little concerned. But instead he used Shocking Grasp, a little less yikes, but still.
So I had to pause the game to figure out how exactly this was going to work. From my 5 minutes of research, here is what I settled on in the moment. He could do this provided he, readies his spell and holds until the Owl goes, the Owl moves and gets into melee range, he uses his reaction to cast the spell through his familiar using his Spell attack modifier, then using the Owl's Fly-by BS ability, escape for free and still dash.
Now on the surface I think this is ridiculous, part of what gates touch spells from being too good is that they require a spell caster to get into melee. Additionally, the Find Familiar spell says specifically that a familiar cannot attack.
Looking past that, what does this cost him? First, he still has to roll to hit, so this could miss. Second, hit or miss, he burns his character's action and reaction to do this. Third, he took a feat to have access to this in lieu of an ASI.
So my question, did I rule this correctly? I think I read somewhere that the Owl loses its reaction as well, but I did not quiet see how that is. Also, would he roll an attack using his Spell Attack modifier or the Owls? My justification of using the Owl's would be that the owl is rolling to hit, not him. But that would mean the Owl is attacking, breaking the rule of the spell, right?
Per the Find Familiar spell, that would be a house rule directly contradicting the spell's description. When you use a familiar to deliver a touch spell, it says: "If the spell requires an attack roll, you use your attack modifier for the roll."
Also, per FF, he burns his own action and the familiar burns it's reaction. He is not readying an action, he is simply casting it through the familiar.
This is not abusive or a problem at all, he is using:
He does gain the range of the familiar, which is one of the uses of the familiar spell.
Honestly, as he is using an attack spell, this is not really abusive. That is what the spell is intended for. The real thing is for clerics to use this combo for NON-attack spells, such as:
Lesser Restoration, Warding Bond, Feign Death.
Real potential abuses would include the higher level spells, such as
You did not rule correctly (by RAW), but close. From Find Familiar:
The main interaction occurs on the player's turn. They cast the spell as normal, and the familiar uses its reaction to deliver the spell.
The rub is that (if you're adhering strictly to RAW) the familiar has its own initiative, so it has to use its turn to get into position. It then waits for the PC to cast the spell on their turn. Therefore, the familiar does not have the ability to move after delivering the spell, and the Flyby feature is nulled. They're stuck in place until their next turn.
That's bullshit for a lot of reasons, but (aside from flyby) mainly because of what happens in-between the familiar's turn and the PC caster's turn. Independent initiatives means a PC could be acting at equidistant ends of the initiative order. Say you've positioned the familiar to deliver a touch spell, but the intended target goes before you do. They could move out of range, undoing your entire setup, or just straight up kill your 1-2HP familiar floating next to them. Another PC may kill your intended target, or otherwise get in the way of what you're trying to accomplish.
5e did not handle companion creatures well, and the same problem plagues mounts as well--your mount moves on its own turn, so the entire concept of being able to break up your movement between attacks is flat-out broken for mounted combat. This is why damn near every DM I know (myself included) just lets familiars/mounts act on the same turn as their player, and calling it a day. The side effect of this is leaving the door open to flyby touch spells. Personally, I feel like that's closer to the intended interaction than awkwardly trying to work in a companion creature's unique initiative.
Soo... pick your poison: do you follow RAW strictly at the expense of bumming out your player(s), or do you go for a simplified resolution by letting the familiar do its stuff on the same turn as the player?
I recommend the latter option for one key reason: you can kill the familiar at any time. Regardless of how you're handling initiative(s), if the player is using their familiar to deliver touch spells, then the familiar is on the field (not in pocket-dimension). If you think they're leaning on the feature too heavily, pop it. Catch it in an AoE, or shoot it out of the sky. Even the dumbest enemy creatures aren't that dumb... they won't ignore a bird that's shooting lightning at them.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
While Sigred and Mog_Dracow are correct about casting a spell and let familiar to deliver it in the normal RAW way, OP's rule is also correct in RAW.
People can use Ready Action to cast a spell as a Reaction and Reaction can occur on its own turn.
So the cleric can use the Ready Action to set up a Reaction, which is casting "Shocking Grasp" when the familiar is next to an enemy. Then both the cleric and the familiar burn their Reaction to deliver it on the familiar's turn.
Yeah, that seems like it works fine.
1) On caster's turn, caster Readies a touch cantrip, triggered to be cast through the familiar when the familiar is within range. (Uses their action). (They can move however they like).
2) On familiar's turn, familiar flies by, caster uses their reaction and familiar uses its reaction both to deliver the touch spell. (The caster needs to use their reaction because you use a reaction to trigger a readied action, the familiar needs to use their reaction because the Find Familiar spell says so.) And as specified in Find Familiar, you use the caster's attack modifier (it's still the caster doing the spellcasting.)
3) Familiar gets to keep moving and/or use its own action, which it could use to dash if it wanted.
Seems reasonable. Basically using up both the caster's and the familiar's reactions to make a touch spell through the familiar, which is exactly what Find Familiar says you can do.
...it doesn't really seem brokenly powerful, anyway. Shocking Grasp does the same damage as Sacred Flame and less than Toll The Dead (also cleric cantrips); Inflict Wounds would do a few points more than Guiding Bolt (level 1 cleric damage spell), but overall it's not like the cleric got themselves a big powerup in damage.
It looks fine, mechanically. I think you ruled okay. Just remember that, under most circumstances, shocking grasp is a wizard spell and not a cleric spell. This means Intelligence is the spellcasting ability, not Wisdom. Their spell attack bonus would likely be smaller, but if they're using it agains't a target wearing metal armor they'd have advantage anyway.
If the Familiar is not touching the target, then yes, this is how it would have to work.
But if the Familiar is already touching the target, then there is no need to Ready the Action, and therefore no reason for the PC to spend their reaction.
It really all depends on if the Familiar is already on target or not.
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That is why I say both of them are correct in RAW.
It is up to the player's diction on how to use it.
I have this happen occasionally. Cast spell, owl flybys and touches the bad guy with the casters spell attack. No problem. Just remember an owl is made of glass, any hit kills it. And most monsters above 10 INT will kill the bird.
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I was agreeing with you.
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Solution: have an enemy with ranged attack shoot the owl. With the low AC and tiny hit points its an easy target. There are also AoEs. There's also ways to ward areas against fey, fiends and celestials - some prevent entry others damage them (see Forbiddance)
It's not a big deal, honestly. Sure they can use some touch spells remotely, but they're using up resources to do so, and it all relies on position and initiative order. It's not that big of a benefit, and you can easily remove that benefit by just attacking the owl. Don't forget, enemies can ready actions as well. You can have an enemy ready an action to attack the owl as soon as it gets within range.
The only familiar/touch-spell abuse I've come across is flock of familiars, glyph of warding and a spell gem, to instantly place spell traps up to a mile away. Anything less, is not abuse and easily sorted.
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Everyone had great advice.
I absolutely love the house rule where the animal goes immediately before or after the player (their choice). It makes combat just a bit less convoluted.
It's not the end of the world to have a flying taser. There's the chance a player loses their little scout, which they may wish they had available later. It's just a question of how best to use resources.
Upon further review, it looks like everyone is more or less saying the same thing. I house rule that summons go on the corresponding summoner's turn, because then my initiative would be miles long in some cases. So with that rule it would go as follows.
In terms of action economy I find this to be satisfactory (I just really hate fly-by + Dash, lol). Plus as you have pointed out, basic mobs with an average brain would recognize the threat.Then if the Owl dies, it has a literal gold cost.
Did I mention that this is in a Curse of Strahd campaign? Where gold is not plentiful and items have 5 times their cost (including spell regents, *evil laugh*).
No, you did not. You won't the problem this one is having https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/rules-game-mechanics/81197-as-a-dm-i-hate-find-familiar
That player is going to begging you not to target his owl and praying to RNG god when you do.
Maybe his/her cleric should change its faith to RNG god for now on. XD
Since the Familiar gets its own initiative RAW and does not necessarily go on the same initiative as its caster, that doesn’t always work. Some times you have to Ready the action because your Familiar isn’t touching your target.
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Owl can't get an OA due to its Flyby feature. Most people use an owl as familiar due to this feature.
That's one hit not directed towards the players. I see this as a win!
Although with Pact of the Chain Warlock, you can have your invisible Imp use its reaction to cast the touch spell, then immediately after use its Action to cast invisibility back on itself and fly away. Now if the enemy wants to attack it they're trying to attack an invisible target. And caster could keep doing this over and over with as many touch spells as it likes (well and has the spell slots for).
The imp acts on its own initiative. This means it doesn't necessarily get to act right away, and even if it is invisible it isn't hidden. Its general location can still be known, and it can be targeted by an area of effect. You have to break line of sight to lose pursuing eyes.
True, but if you used your Ready Action to cast only when your Imp gets close enough to the target to trigger it, then the casting would trigger on the Imp's turn once it moves close enough to cast the spell (using both your reaction and the Imp's reaction), and then the Imp will use its Action to cast invisibility. And depending on your DM they may have disadvantage or may have to do a perception check because likely after going Invisible, if your Imp still has movement (it has 40 ft flying so probably) it will move away from the enemy.
If it stayed beside the enemy and invisible i'd say yes strictly just disadvantage then, but if it moves away while invisible it makes it harder (but not impossible) to determine which way it went, in my opinion at least.