l have a few barbarians,and a few of them are mixed with rogue, (for the advantage gained by reckless to be used to sneak attack) but l just read the ability,and it says "giving you advantage on melee weapon attack rolls using STR". STR Based melee attacks. l am guessing this means that my Str 8 Dex 20 Rapier useing Roguebarian just got a lot less usefull.
l am guessing no,but can finess weapons count? if not,l guess l will have to hope my dm is less strict on the rules.
EDIT:My fears are confirmed. Thanks for the feedback everyone,I have gotten a answer,though one that is less then favorable. Heres hopeing l get a kind dm willing to over look this issue.
With finesse, you can choose STR or DEX, so as long as you chose STR I would think it would still be ok, but your build is not geared for that unless you can beef up your STR in addition to DEX
Reckless Attack works with melee weapon attacks made using Strength. There's no other restriction on the type of weapon. Using a Finesse weapon is fine since you can attack with Dexterity or Strength. Sneak Attack is limited to Finesse weapons when used in melee attacks, it doesn't care of you use Strength, Dexterity, or any other stat when attacking(so it works fine with Hexblades attacking with Charisma, for example). Your "Roguebarian" wouldn't work the way you want for two reasons:
1) You'd have to attack with Strength to make use of Reckless Attack. You also wouldn't get the +X damage bonus while raging, because that too only kicks in on Strength-based attacks.
2) You can't multiclass Barbarian with a Strength score of 8. To multiclass with Barbarian you need a Strength of at least 13. To multiclass with Rogue, you need a Dexterity of at least 13. When you multiclass, you need to meet the ability score requirements for ALL classes you have levels in, regardless of which order you took them in.
As above, Barbarian/Rogues are quite good due to the ability to generate their own Sneak Attacks, but you'll need to be a strength-based attacker using a Rapier, most likely, because both Rage and Reckless Attack are oddly specific in what attribute they apply to (Strength-based attacks only), rather than what types of weapons.
2) You can't multiclass Barbarian with a Strength score of 8. To multiclass with Barbarian you need a Strength of at least 13. To multiclass with Rogue, you need a Dexterity of at least 13. When you multiclass, you need to meet the ability score requirements for ALL classes you have levels in, regardless of which order you took them in.
If your DM has already allowed you to multiclass without meeting attribute requirements for a Barbarian, then sure, they may also be willing to let you apply Rage damage to non-Strength based attacks, use Reckless Attack on non-strength based attacks, or even Sneak Attack using non-finesse weapons. Good luck.
2) You can't multiclass Barbarian with a Strength score of 8. To multiclass with Barbarian you need a Strength of at least 13. To multiclass with Rogue, you need a Dexterity of at least 13. When you multiclass, you need to meet the ability score requirements for ALL classes you have levels in, regardless of which order you took them in.
*unless the dm throws away that archaic rule.
I like the rule, people come up with crazy enough multiclass combos as it is. And from a conceptual standpoint, it makes more sense for a Barbarian's combat abilities to key off Strength instead of Dexterity. Terms like "Rage" and "Reckless Attack" don't say "finesse" or "precision" to me,
2) You can't multiclass Barbarian with a Strength score of 8. To multiclass with Barbarian you need a Strength of at least 13. To multiclass with Rogue, you need a Dexterity of at least 13. When you multiclass, you need to meet the ability score requirements for ALL classes you have levels in, regardless of which order you took them in.
*unless the dm throws away that archaic rule.
I like the rule, people come up with crazy enough multiclass combos as it is. And from a conceptual standpoint, it makes more sense for a Barbarian's combat abilities to key off Strength instead of Dexterity. Terms like "Rage" and "Reckless Attack" don't say "finesse" or "precision" to me,
if you want to think of a conan type barbarian, then sure, but my idea for a dex barbarian is more of a cold fury that throws caution to the wind and launches themselfs at the enemy, weapon first.
If the multi-class rules don't matter, why should the rules involved in your question? Either your character won't work or your DM will make further rules concessions and it will. Seems like a pre-character generation conversation. If everyone is getting homebrew rule advantages, it should be fine but, it can be a lot of work keeping track of all the effects rule changes will make.
Maybe Fighter/Rogue would be a better route than bending all kinds of rules with the Barbarian.
I'm all for houserules and being flexible for character concepts, but Barbarians are tied to strength to distinguish them from the other martial classes. It's also for balance reasons because DEX is just way better than STR overall.
my idea for a dex barbarian is more of a cold fury that throws caution to the wind and launches themselfs at the enemy, weapon first.
Honestly, pure rogue can do that just fine, and every 2 levels you put into another class is another die of Sneak Attack you lose. Barb is not worth it without strength.
I can definitely see the theory behind a character who's "rage" is not them flying off the handle. Instead, they pretty much shut down their emotional and personal parts of their brain and instead are working more like a tactical combat AI. They become a merciless killing machine that will slaughter anything indiscriminately in order to accomplish their mission.
Think like RDJr's Sherlock, how he has that moment where time stops and he plans out his entire attack plan for the next minute or so (10 rounds) where he directs all of his opponents weaknesses, calculates their reactions, and plans a path through it all. Then the moment ends, and he quietly and very mechanically carries it all out and straight up demolishes his opponent.
2) You can't multiclass Barbarian with a Strength score of 8. To multiclass with Barbarian you need a Strength of at least 13. To multiclass with Rogue, you need a Dexterity of at least 13. When you multiclass, you need to meet the ability score requirements for ALL classes you have levels in, regardless of which order you took them in.
*unless the dm throws away that archaic rule.
I like the rule, people come up with crazy enough multiclass combos as it is. And from a conceptual standpoint, it makes more sense for a Barbarian's combat abilities to key off Strength instead of Dexterity. Terms like "Rage" and "Reckless Attack" don't say "finesse" or "precision" to me,
if you want to think of a conan type barbarian, then sure, but my idea for a dex barbarian is more of a cold fury that throws caution to the wind and launches themselfs at the enemy, weapon first.
seems to me like another person who thinks whacking someone with a chair could be dex based ! don'T get me wrong, you don't need strength to kill someone with a blade... all it takes is a simple flick of the wrist ! but there is nothing dextrous about picking off a chair and whacking someone with it. you have to make a difference there. the same applies to barbarians... "you" may think rage can be about being intelligent about it... but raging and in d&d was never meant for that. actually what you are describing to me, is literally the inverse of raging. it feels more like the calm emotion spell. as a DM i've send you toward the swashbuckler rogue who can already sneak attack on their own all the time. they are alone, sneak attack, they have allies, sneak attack. to me, what you describe is betterly shown as the swashbuckling type. but by your description, you seem to ask if you could mechanically optimise your damage output by having barbarian advantages and the barbarian rage damage as well. and simply cover that with semi-realistic role play ideas... that's how it looks to me...
reality is... if you make dex based barbarians, they are nothing more then fighters and have no distinctions between the two. at that point i'd choose 3 levels of rogues and 17 levels of fighter battlemasters which deals much more damage then a barbarian rogue could ever do.you could also go 7 rogue/13 fighters or 11 rogues/9 fighters. also, that means your barbarians won't ever get the awesome fighting style of a fighter level 1. the one that enables you to add your bonuses to your off-hand attack.
again if you want a sherlock home type of gameplay with dex based dual wielder... you are better off as a rogue swashbuckler and a fighter specialising in dual weapon fighting. rage and reckless attacks are far from being dextrous types... if you ever ask any sword wielding people they will tell you, there is dexterity and then there is strength. both techniques are very different approach. but both are defined by their styles which you are right now, trying to mix up together.
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DM of two gaming groups. Likes to create stuff. Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games --> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
First off,thank you for bringing the swashbuckler to my attention. Though not exactly what I want,it is something that can fit with one of my roguebarians.
Second,yes,the rage bonus and reckless advantage are important,but the main reason for a level or 2 in barb is unnarmored AC=10+dex+con.
3rd,no, obviously lifting and swinging a chair at somone wouldn't be dex,it would be strength. I never said any of my roguebarians would be swinging chairs,or other heavy things.
4th,a rage doesn't have to be "your vision goes red and you start foaming at the mouth,as you unleash a primal roar". It can be: "frowns deeply while clenching fists, "you should not have done that,bub" runs up and stabs enemy in gut." With the reckless part being you just not careing about anything but running up to the guy and stabbing them in the gut.
5th, "semi-realistic role play ideas"? It's true,I admit,but whats wrong with rollplaying in a rollplaying game? As long as the dm is ok with it,there is no issue.
Welp,those are my thoughts on your comment. Thanks for the feedback everyone,I have gotten a answer,though one that is less then favorable.
2nd.... Rogues dont need unarmored defense. Between uncanny dodge and evasion. You are already the last guy to die on the field. Unarmored defense would help. But its more often then not whats gonna be used the most. Thus its a waste of a level.
3rd... The chair exemple comes from one of my player who wants to do a dirk gently character who can just use every improvised weapons as fibesse weapons. You seem to wanna do the same just because... Well i use dex so everything should be dex based right. Nope...
4th.... You literally gave the definition of a man who would not have any finesse in his movement. Rage by definition is you not thinking straight. Cant have any finesses if you cant think straight. What you describe is only being angry. Angry is not raging. Raging is another level above angry. There is still a whole difference between being angry and raging. Feels to me like you are trying to give a reason to something that you think are the same thing. Read the description of each words. There is tons of difference between them.
5th... Roleplay is fine... Roleplaying to gain an unfair advantage just because of mechanic is not roleplay. Thats what i was saying. Right now you are saying mechanics should be changed just so you can get advantages over your enemies. Thats not roleplaying to me. Thats fidgetting about rules ! Just like my player who is trying to convince me that throwing a chair with precision is finesse. Or that other player who is trying to make me change the book ruling on rapier and make them two handed so he can have versatile as well as a shield. Or that other player in another group trying to tell me he can strap 5 shields on him and gain more then +2 bonuses ignoring the actual ruling cause in real life it would protect more. Thats fidgetting... Not roleplaying !
But again.... Do as you please. Clearly you are gonna do it anyway and ignore everyone here who told you otherwise. So happy rogue barbarian to you. For my part... I think rogue paladin is a much better choice. But your call !
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DM of two gaming groups. Likes to create stuff. Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games --> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
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l have a few barbarians,and a few of them are mixed with rogue, (for the advantage gained by reckless to be used to sneak attack) but l just read the ability,and it says "giving you advantage on melee weapon attack rolls using STR". STR Based melee attacks. l am guessing this means that my Str 8 Dex 20 Rapier useing Roguebarian just got a lot less usefull.
l am guessing no,but can finess weapons count? if not,l guess l will have to hope my dm is less strict on the rules.
EDIT:My fears are confirmed. Thanks for the feedback everyone,I have gotten a answer,though one that is less then favorable. Heres hopeing l get a kind dm willing to over look this issue.
With finesse, you can choose STR or DEX, so as long as you chose STR I would think it would still be ok, but your build is not geared for that unless you can beef up your STR in addition to DEX
Reckless Attack works with melee weapon attacks made using Strength. There's no other restriction on the type of weapon. Using a Finesse weapon is fine since you can attack with Dexterity or Strength. Sneak Attack is limited to Finesse weapons when used in melee attacks, it doesn't care of you use Strength, Dexterity, or any other stat when attacking(so it works fine with Hexblades attacking with Charisma, for example). Your "Roguebarian" wouldn't work the way you want for two reasons:
1) You'd have to attack with Strength to make use of Reckless Attack. You also wouldn't get the +X damage bonus while raging, because that too only kicks in on Strength-based attacks.
2) You can't multiclass Barbarian with a Strength score of 8. To multiclass with Barbarian you need a Strength of at least 13. To multiclass with Rogue, you need a Dexterity of at least 13. When you multiclass, you need to meet the ability score requirements for ALL classes you have levels in, regardless of which order you took them in.
As above, Barbarian/Rogues are quite good due to the ability to generate their own Sneak Attacks, but you'll need to be a strength-based attacker using a Rapier, most likely, because both Rage and Reckless Attack are oddly specific in what attribute they apply to (Strength-based attacks only), rather than what types of weapons.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
*unless the dm throws away that archaic rule.
If your DM has already allowed you to multiclass without meeting attribute requirements for a Barbarian, then sure, they may also be willing to let you apply Rage damage to non-Strength based attacks, use Reckless Attack on non-strength based attacks, or even Sneak Attack using non-finesse weapons. Good luck.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I like the rule, people come up with crazy enough multiclass combos as it is. And from a conceptual standpoint, it makes more sense for a Barbarian's combat abilities to key off Strength instead of Dexterity. Terms like "Rage" and "Reckless Attack" don't say "finesse" or "precision" to me,
if you want to think of a conan type barbarian, then sure, but my idea for a dex barbarian is more of a cold fury that throws caution to the wind and launches themselfs at the enemy, weapon first.
If the multi-class rules don't matter, why should the rules involved in your question? Either your character won't work or your DM will make further rules concessions and it will. Seems like a pre-character generation conversation. If everyone is getting homebrew rule advantages, it should be fine but, it can be a lot of work keeping track of all the effects rule changes will make.
Maybe Fighter/Rogue would be a better route than bending all kinds of rules with the Barbarian.
I'm all for houserules and being flexible for character concepts, but Barbarians are tied to strength to distinguish them from the other martial classes. It's also for balance reasons because DEX is just way better than STR overall.
Honestly, pure rogue can do that just fine, and every 2 levels you put into another class is another die of Sneak Attack you lose. Barb is not worth it without strength.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
I can definitely see the theory behind a character who's "rage" is not them flying off the handle. Instead, they pretty much shut down their emotional and personal parts of their brain and instead are working more like a tactical combat AI. They become a merciless killing machine that will slaughter anything indiscriminately in order to accomplish their mission.
Think like RDJr's Sherlock, how he has that moment where time stops and he plans out his entire attack plan for the next minute or so (10 rounds) where he directs all of his opponents weaknesses, calculates their reactions, and plans a path through it all. Then the moment ends, and he quietly and very mechanically carries it all out and straight up demolishes his opponent.
seems to me like another person who thinks whacking someone with a chair could be dex based !
don'T get me wrong, you don't need strength to kill someone with a blade... all it takes is a simple flick of the wrist !
but there is nothing dextrous about picking off a chair and whacking someone with it.
you have to make a difference there. the same applies to barbarians... "you" may think rage can be about being intelligent about it... but raging and in d&d was never meant for that. actually what you are describing to me, is literally the inverse of raging. it feels more like the calm emotion spell. as a DM i've send you toward the swashbuckler rogue who can already sneak attack on their own all the time. they are alone, sneak attack, they have allies, sneak attack. to me, what you describe is betterly shown as the swashbuckling type. but by your description, you seem to ask if you could mechanically optimise your damage output by having barbarian advantages and the barbarian rage damage as well. and simply cover that with semi-realistic role play ideas... that's how it looks to me...
reality is... if you make dex based barbarians, they are nothing more then fighters and have no distinctions between the two. at that point i'd choose 3 levels of rogues and 17 levels of fighter battlemasters which deals much more damage then a barbarian rogue could ever do.you could also go 7 rogue/13 fighters or 11 rogues/9 fighters. also, that means your barbarians won't ever get the awesome fighting style of a fighter level 1. the one that enables you to add your bonuses to your off-hand attack.
again if you want a sherlock home type of gameplay with dex based dual wielder... you are better off as a rogue swashbuckler and a fighter specialising in dual weapon fighting.
rage and reckless attacks are far from being dextrous types... if you ever ask any sword wielding people they will tell you, there is dexterity and then there is strength. both techniques are very different approach. but both are defined by their styles which you are right now, trying to mix up together.
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games
--> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
First off,thank you for bringing the swashbuckler to my attention. Though not exactly what I want,it is something that can fit with one of my roguebarians.
Second,yes,the rage bonus and reckless advantage are important,but the main reason for a level or 2 in barb is unnarmored AC=10+dex+con.
3rd,no, obviously lifting and swinging a chair at somone wouldn't be dex,it would be strength. I never said any of my roguebarians would be swinging chairs,or other heavy things.
4th,a rage doesn't have to be "your vision goes red and you start foaming at the mouth,as you unleash a primal roar". It can be: "frowns deeply while clenching fists, "you should not have done that,bub" runs up and stabs enemy in gut." With the reckless part being you just not careing about anything but running up to the guy and stabbing them in the gut.
5th, "semi-realistic role play ideas"? It's true,I admit,but whats wrong with rollplaying in a rollplaying game? As long as the dm is ok with it,there is no issue.
Welp,those are my thoughts on your comment. Thanks for the feedback everyone,I have gotten a answer,though one that is less then favorable.
2nd.... Rogues dont need unarmored defense. Between uncanny dodge and evasion. You are already the last guy to die on the field. Unarmored defense would help. But its more often then not whats gonna be used the most. Thus its a waste of a level.
3rd... The chair exemple comes from one of my player who wants to do a dirk gently character who can just use every improvised weapons as fibesse weapons. You seem to wanna do the same just because... Well i use dex so everything should be dex based right. Nope...
4th.... You literally gave the definition of a man who would not have any finesse in his movement. Rage by definition is you not thinking straight. Cant have any finesses if you cant think straight. What you describe is only being angry. Angry is not raging. Raging is another level above angry. There is still a whole difference between being angry and raging. Feels to me like you are trying to give a reason to something that you think are the same thing. Read the description of each words. There is tons of difference between them.
5th... Roleplay is fine... Roleplaying to gain an unfair advantage just because of mechanic is not roleplay. Thats what i was saying. Right now you are saying mechanics should be changed just so you can get advantages over your enemies. Thats not roleplaying to me. Thats fidgetting about rules ! Just like my player who is trying to convince me that throwing a chair with precision is finesse. Or that other player who is trying to make me change the book ruling on rapier and make them two handed so he can have versatile as well as a shield. Or that other player in another group trying to tell me he can strap 5 shields on him and gain more then +2 bonuses ignoring the actual ruling cause in real life it would protect more. Thats fidgetting... Not roleplaying !
But again.... Do as you please. Clearly you are gonna do it anyway and ignore everyone here who told you otherwise. So happy rogue barbarian to you. For my part... I think rogue paladin is a much better choice. But your call !
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games
--> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)