How do you think the effect(s) of the find steed spell(s) and share spells ability of the beast master subclass interact with spells that trigger on the next successful weapon attack? Specifically, do you think they are a “first come, first served” kind of thing, or “the spell is rocking for each until they hit individually”?
How do you think the effect(s) of the find steed spell(s) and share spells ability of the beast master subclass interact with spells that trigger on the next successful weapon attack? Specifically, do you think they are a “first come, first served” kind of thing, or “the spell is rocking for each until they hit individually”?
Thanks for your thoughts!
So you're talking about a Paladin 5/Ranger 15 multiclass, and spells like Thunderous Smite?
The short answer to whether those spells can be shared is no, full stop.
Those spells do not target yourself; they explicitly target the creature(s) you attack, so they cannot ever be shared with your steed. While the 15th level Beast Master feature is less restrictive than Find Steed, those spells still don't target yourself, so they still can't be shared.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
How do you think the effect(s) of the find steed spell(s) and share spells ability of the beast master subclass interact with spells that trigger on the next successful weapon attack? Specifically, do you think they are a “first come, first served” kind of thing, or “the spell is rocking for each until they hit individually”?
Thanks for your thoughts!
So you're talking about a Paladin 5/Ranger 15 multiclass, and spells like Thunderous Smite?
The short answer to whether those spells can be shared is no, full stop.
Those spells do not target yourself; they explicitly target the creature(s) you attack, so they cannot ever be shared with your steed. While the 15th level Beast Master feature is less restrictive than Find Steed, those spells still don't target yourself, so they still can't be shared.
The next time you hit a creature with a weapon attack before this spell ends, a writhing mass of thorny vines appears at the point of impact, and the target must succeed on a Strength saving throw or be restrained by the magical vines until the spell ends. A Large or larger creature has advantage on this saving throw. If the target succeeds on the save, the vines shrivel away.
While restrained by this spell, the target takes 1d6 piercing damage at the start of each of its turns. A creature restrained by the vines or one that can touch the creature can use its action to make a Strength check against your spell save DC. On a success, the target is freed.
Bolded are the highlights to look for. These spells do not target yourself, nor even your weapon, really. They all target a creature. More-or-less, you will not find any attack spells that are eligible for these features. You should be looking at spells that actually target you, and those are overwhelmingly going to be healing/support spells. Even then, the spell has to only target you (for the stricter restriction of Find Steed), so things like Bless are out the window as well.
Paladin spells that will, when targeting only yourself, work with Find Steed and/or Share Spells:
As you can see, there are quite a number of options, and I probably missed one or two along the way. However, there's also a large portion of those spells that can implicitly target your steed anyway. That includes all of the spells that only work with the Beast Master 15 Share Spells feature, so if you've already got Find Steed, there's really no benefit to be gained (on that front) from Beast Master.
How do you think the effect(s) of the find steed spell(s) and share spells ability of the beast master subclass interact with spells that trigger on the next successful weapon attack? Specifically, do you think they are a “first come, first served” kind of thing, or “the spell is rocking for each until they hit individually”?
Thanks for your thoughts!
So you're talking about a Paladin 5/Ranger 15 multiclass, and spells like Thunderous Smite?
The short answer to whether those spells can be shared is no, full stop.
Those spells do not target yourself; they explicitly target the creature(s) you attack, so they cannot ever be shared with your steed. While the 15th level Beast Master feature is less restrictive than Find Steed, those spells still don't target yourself, so they still can't be shared.
The first time you hit with a melee weapon attack during this spell’s duration, your weapon rings with thunder that is audible within 300 feet of you, and the attack deals an extra 2d6 thunder damage to the target. Additionally, if the target is a creature, it must succeed on a Strength saving throw or be pushed 10 feet away from you and knocked prone.
You & the weapon(s) you use are the method of delivery, but the spell itself targets what you hit.
Plus JC has explicitly said those spells don't work. Sposta, you know how much stock I generally put in non-official SAC answers from JC, but this one is pretty clear & straight-forward.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
When I read the find steed and share spells feature I to see a large difference with the "only you" being it. I see that (shared spells) working with something like bless or dragon breath because it does "targeting yourself".
I would also be interested in some more thoughts on the ensnaring strike spell with the share spells feature. Again, I'm looking at these and think they work fine together. Is the spell copied or now has two triggering possibilities? For example, cure wounds would heal the ranger and beast. The ranger maintains the concentration on ensnaring strike, but do both of them(ranger and beast) get a hit with it, or when the first of either of them hits next the spell ends?
If you look at ensnaring strike and thunderous smite the range/area is self the only exlanation is that. The spell targets the caster but refers to the target of a weapon attack.
For example thunderous smite
The first time you [the target of the spell] hit with a melee weapon attack during this spell’s duration, your weapon rings with thunder that is audible within 300 feet of you, and the attack deals an extra 2d6 thunder damage to the target [of the melee weapon attack]. Additionally, if the target [of the melee weapon attack] is a creature, it must succeed on a Strength saving throw or be pushed 10 feet away from you and knocked prone.
As the range / area is self a steed from the find steed spell is affected but the rules are not clear whether the spell works for the first attack each of you make or the first attack either of you make, I would go with the later (like IamSposta) it just seems a bit too powerful otherwise.
When I read the find steed and share spells feature I to see a large difference with the "only you" being it. I see that (shared spells) working with something like bless or dragon breath because it does "targeting yourself".
I would also be interested in some more thoughts on the ensnaring strike spell with the share spells feature. Again, I'm looking at these and think they work fine together. Is the spell copied or now has two triggering possibilities? For example, cure wounds would heal the ranger and beast. The ranger maintains the concentration on ensnaring strike, but do both of them(ranger and beast) get a hit with it, or when the first of either of them hits next the spell ends?
Except they don't work fine. Those spells do not target yourself. They are cast from a range of self, but you are not the target of the spell itself. If anything--besides the creature you attack being a target--the spell targets your weapon, not yourself.
Conceptually, all of the Smite/Strike/Volley lines of spells are more similar to a spell that you are holding as a readied action. You charge up the spell, hold its energy (concentration), and release it when you make a successful attack against an actual target. The only interaction that actually involves you is simply casting & aiming the spell, which is no different from casting any other direct attack spell, and does not involve yourself (unless you're suicidal, I guess :P ) as a target.
Dragon's Breath (which you don't get as either a Paladin or a Ranger), and the aforementioned Divine Favor (which you do get) actually do target yourself explicitly. Those spells directly provide you with the ability to do something.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
If you look at ensnaring strike and thunderous smite the range/area is self the only exlanation is that. The spell targets the caster but refers to the target of a weapon attack.
For example thunderous smite
The first time you [the target of the spell] hit with a melee weapon attack during this spell’s duration, your weapon rings with thunder that is audible within 300 feet of you, and the attack deals an extra 2d6 thunder damage to the target [of the melee weapon attack]. Additionally, if the target [of the melee weapon attack] is a creature, it must succeed on a Strength saving throw or be pushed 10 feet away from you and knocked prone.
As the range / area is self a steed from the find steed spell is affected but the rules are not clear whether the spell works for the first attack each of you make or the first attack either of you make, I would go with the later (like IamSposta) it just seems a bit too powerful otherwise.
Maybe I’m confused. The share spells ability for the ranger doesn’t have the “targets only you” bit. It only has to target you. So something like bless would work ok if the ranger was one of the targets. Cure wounds would work if the ranger was the target. Ensuring strike is range of self, which makes the caster a target. The find steed bit says “no” if they spell can or does target anything other than the caster or anything with the caster. Isn’t that right?
The target of a spell must be within the spell's range. For a spell like magic missile, the target is a creature. For a spell like fireball, the target is the point in space where the ball of fire erupts.
Most spells have ranges expressed in feet. Some spells can target only a creature (including you) that you touch. Other spells, such as the shield spell, affect only you. These spells have a range of self.
Spells that create cones or lines of effect that originate from you also have a range of self, indicating that the origin point of the spell's effect must be you.
Once a spell is cast, its effects aren't limited by its range, unless the spell's description says otherwise.
That still doesn't change much... they're still not eligible for use with Find Steed, but okay with Share Spells. However, the best you're going to get out of it is still one application. I.e., unlikely to provide a strategic advantage outside of niche circumstances, but a decent thing to have in your back pocket.
Sharing spells does not create a duplicate spell for the steed; it only extends the effect from you to include your steed. You wouldn't have two discrete spells in play. You would be concentrating on a single spell, so whichever one of you lands an eligible attack first ends the entire thing for you both. If you also lose concentration on the spell before either of you are able to make an eligible attack, you both lose the spell.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
... I'm also an idiot, and didn't think of this at the very beginning: you can't use the creature summoned via Find Steed as your Ranger's Companion anyway. Individual size & CR aside, all options summoned from that spell are either celestial, fey, or fiend, not beasts.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Dude, the literal range on Thunderous Smite is “Self.” How is that ambiguous?!? And I don’t care what JC tweets, if they want to errata those spells to change the range from “self” they can go right ahead, but until they do, I’m not buying it.
I'm going to agree with sposta. The range is self, meaning the spell targets you. All the narrative after describes what happens to the target of the attack, not the of the spell. They are two different things, which is supported by them being two different actions, bonus action for the spell, then an attack action for the trigger of it. They don't even need to be in the same round.
And it could still be pretty useful even if you only get to use it one time. Bonus action cast it. Attack with pally (however many times they get to), miss. Mount goes on same turn as pally, it hits, the effect triggers. It can give you and extra chance to pull off the sell, and make your mount's attack more useful.
The real thing that could trip it up in the wording, imo, is the kind of attack. Some say weapon attack, some say melee weapon attack. I don't think any say attack with a melee weapon, but I only took a quick glance. But that's all a different sort of headache to parse.
Really, the whole discussion is pretty academic, most cases you're better off just using the spell slot to smite instead of casting a smite spell. And mounts are so squishy they mostly just dodge when they're close enough to melee. (At least mine does, I have a halfling, so my mastiff gets one shot by anything that looks at it sideways.)
As discussed in the past several times, the PHB unfortunately uses "target" to mean both "the target of the spell" and also in practice "the target of the spell's effect" interchangeably (see e.g. Fireball which targets a point within range but also "targets" the creatures within that area). When target is defined in PHB Section 10, it only defines that term in the sense of "the target of the spell," so it would be reasonable to assume that other features that look for "the target" are generally talking about "the target of the spell" and not "the target of the spell's effect." Room to disagree there, really almost requires a case by case analysis of each feature....
But in this instance, for Find Steed? The RAI there is clearly intended that any spell you've cast on yourself will also be cast on your Steed, so a Smite -type spell that you carry a charge on, I would have no qualms about giving to the steed too. Unlike Sposta, I'd also let both PC and the Steed each get their own use of it on a melee attack, not just one for whichever attacks first.
That still doesn't change much... they're still not eligible for use with Find Steed, but okay with Share Spells. However, the best you're going to get out of it is still one application. I.e., unlikely to provide a strategic advantage outside of niche circumstances, but a decent thing to have in your back pocket.
Sharing spells does not create a duplicate spell for the steed; it only extends the effect from you to include your steed. You wouldn't have two discrete spells in play. You would be concentrating on a single spell, so whichever one of you lands an eligible attack first ends the entire thing for you both. If you also lose concentration on the spell before either of you are able to make an eligible attack, you both lose the spell.
That is what I’m curious about. So if you take the wording in pass without trace...
“A veil of shadows and silence radiates from you, masking you and your companions from detection. For the duration, each creature you choose within 30 feet of you (including you) has a +10 bonus to Dexterity (Stealth) checks and can't be tracked except by magical means.”
...and the wording in ensnaring strike...
”The next time you hit a creature with a weapon attack before this spell ends, a writhing mass of thorny vines appears at the point of impact, and the target must succeed on a Strength saving throw or be restrained by the magical vines until the spell ends.“
If the share spells works for one why not the other? The wording is applied to both targets?
Pass without trace says each creature you choose within a radius. That is more than only you, so no. I guess there could be a situation where you cast it, and there’s no one else around, so that it is technically targeting only you. I’d say that would probably be a DM ruling.
Smite spells, with a range of self, target only you, at least insofar as you can not cast the spell on the fighter next to you to let him use the spell. The spell targets you, the following attack targets someone else.
I personally think the big intent is to let you cast cure wounds on yourself and heal your mount as well, but the wording allows for some flexibility in cases like smite spells, or misty step (for ancients pallys), and probably others.
If ensnaring strike targets the enemy what happens if you miss.
Bonus action ensnearing strike, action attack bad guy 1, miss. The spell is still active and the target is presumably bad guy 1.
Next turn, action attack bad guy 2, hit. as it is the ffirst hit after the spell was cast bad guy 2 takes the effect, does this change the target of the spell I cast last turn?
No the target is me so it affects my next attack whoever it is on.
I let my Paladins cast smite spell on themselves and their mounts. Both get their own smite effect. I don't see why not. If you cast Cure Wounds, both would get healed, not just whoever was hurt first. It's not that big a deal. Mounts are fragile.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
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How do you think the effect(s) of the find steed spell(s) and share spells ability of the beast master subclass interact with spells that trigger on the next successful weapon attack? Specifically, do you think they are a “first come, first served” kind of thing, or “the spell is rocking for each until they hit individually”?
Thanks for your thoughts!
So you're talking about a Paladin 5/Ranger 15 multiclass, and spells like Thunderous Smite?
The short answer to whether those spells can be shared is no, full stop.
Those spells do not target yourself; they explicitly target the creature(s) you attack, so they cannot ever be shared with your steed. While the 15th level Beast Master feature is less restrictive than Find Steed, those spells still don't target yourself, so they still can't be shared.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
How about share spells and ensnaring strike?
Thunderous Smite expressly targets the caster, not the intended victim. As do the other Smite Spells and Ensnaring Strike, Hail of Thorns, and maybe some others.
The way I rule it is that the spell affects both Caster and Mount, but it triggers off of the next successful attack made by either.
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Still a hard no. It targets a creature, not yourself. None of those types of spells will work.
Bolded are the highlights to look for. These spells do not target yourself, nor even your weapon, really. They all target a creature. More-or-less, you will not find any attack spells that are eligible for these features. You should be looking at spells that actually target you, and those are overwhelmingly going to be healing/support spells. Even then, the spell has to only target you (for the stricter restriction of Find Steed), so things like Bless are out the window as well.
Paladin spells that will, when targeting only yourself, work with Find Steed and/or Share Spells:
Ranger spells that will, when targeting only yourself, work with Find Steed and/or Share Spells:
Additional Paladin spells that will only work with BM15 Share Spells:
Additional Ranger spells that will only work with BM15 Share Spells:
As you can see, there are quite a number of options, and I probably missed one or two along the way. However, there's also a large portion of those spells that can implicitly target your steed anyway. That includes all of the spells that only work with the Beast Master 15 Share Spells feature, so if you've already got Find Steed, there's really no benefit to be gained (on that front) from Beast Master.
[edit]
No, it really doesn't. None of them do.
You & the weapon(s) you use are the method of delivery, but the spell itself targets what you hit.
Plus JC has explicitly said those spells don't work. Sposta, you know how much stock I generally put in non-official SAC answers from JC, but this one is pretty clear & straight-forward.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Mmm... Thanks for all the feedback and thoughts!
When I read the find steed and share spells feature I to see a large difference with the "only you" being it. I see that (shared spells) working with something like bless or dragon breath because it does "targeting yourself".
I would also be interested in some more thoughts on the ensnaring strike spell with the share spells feature. Again, I'm looking at these and think they work fine together. Is the spell copied or now has two triggering possibilities? For example, cure wounds would heal the ranger and beast. The ranger maintains the concentration on ensnaring strike, but do both of them(ranger and beast) get a hit with it, or when the first of either of them hits next the spell ends?
I have to disagree with you there
If you look at ensnaring strike and thunderous smite the range/area is self the only exlanation is that. The spell targets the caster but refers to the target of a weapon attack.
For example thunderous smite
As the range / area is self a steed from the find steed spell is affected but the rules are not clear whether the spell works for the first attack each of you make or the first attack either of you make, I would go with the later (like IamSposta) it just seems a bit too powerful otherwise.
Except they don't work fine. Those spells do not target yourself. They are cast from a range of self, but you are not the target of the spell itself. If anything--besides the creature you attack being a target--the spell targets your weapon, not yourself.
Conceptually, all of the Smite/Strike/Volley lines of spells are more similar to a spell that you are holding as a readied action. You charge up the spell, hold its energy (concentration), and release it when you make a successful attack against an actual target. The only interaction that actually involves you is simply casting & aiming the spell, which is no different from casting any other direct attack spell, and does not involve yourself (unless you're suicidal, I guess :P ) as a target.
Dragon's Breath (which you don't get as either a Paladin or a Ranger), and the aforementioned Divine Favor (which you do get) actually do target yourself explicitly. Those spells directly provide you with the ability to do something.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Maybe I’m confused. The share spells ability for the ranger doesn’t have the “targets only you” bit. It only has to target you. So something like bless would work ok if the ranger was one of the targets. Cure wounds would work if the ranger was the target. Ensuring strike is range of self, which makes the caster a target. The find steed bit says “no” if they spell can or does target anything other than the caster or anything with the caster. Isn’t that right?
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/06/12/spell-range-self/
Range
The target of a spell must be within the spell's range. For a spell like magic missile, the target is a creature. For a spell like fireball, the target is the point in space where the ball of fire erupts.
Most spells have ranges expressed in feet. Some spells can target only a creature (including you) that you touch. Other spells, such as the shield spell, affect only you. These spells have a range of self.
Spells that create cones or lines of effect that originate from you also have a range of self, indicating that the origin point of the spell's effect must be you.
Once a spell is cast, its effects aren't limited by its range, unless the spell's description says otherwise.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/spellcasting#CastingaSpell
That still doesn't change much... they're still not eligible for use with Find Steed, but okay with Share Spells. However, the best you're going to get out of it is still one application. I.e., unlikely to provide a strategic advantage outside of niche circumstances, but a decent thing to have in your back pocket.
Sharing spells does not create a duplicate spell for the steed; it only extends the effect from you to include your steed. You wouldn't have two discrete spells in play. You would be concentrating on a single spell, so whichever one of you lands an eligible attack first ends the entire thing for you both. If you also lose concentration on the spell before either of you are able to make an eligible attack, you both lose the spell.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
... I'm also an idiot, and didn't think of this at the very beginning: you can't use the creature summoned via Find Steed as your Ranger's Companion anyway. Individual size & CR aside, all options summoned from that spell are either celestial, fey, or fiend, not beasts.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Dude, the literal range on Thunderous Smite is “Self.” How is that ambiguous?!? And I don’t care what JC tweets, if they want to errata those spells to change the range from “self” they can go right ahead, but until they do, I’m not buying it.
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I'm going to agree with sposta. The range is self, meaning the spell targets you. All the narrative after describes what happens to the target of the attack, not the of the spell. They are two different things, which is supported by them being two different actions, bonus action for the spell, then an attack action for the trigger of it. They don't even need to be in the same round.
And it could still be pretty useful even if you only get to use it one time. Bonus action cast it. Attack with pally (however many times they get to), miss. Mount goes on same turn as pally, it hits, the effect triggers. It can give you and extra chance to pull off the sell, and make your mount's attack more useful.
The real thing that could trip it up in the wording, imo, is the kind of attack. Some say weapon attack, some say melee weapon attack. I don't think any say attack with a melee weapon, but I only took a quick glance. But that's all a different sort of headache to parse.
Really, the whole discussion is pretty academic, most cases you're better off just using the spell slot to smite instead of casting a smite spell. And mounts are so squishy they mostly just dodge when they're close enough to melee. (At least mine does, I have a halfling, so my mastiff gets one shot by anything that looks at it sideways.)
As discussed in the past several times, the PHB unfortunately uses "target" to mean both "the target of the spell" and also in practice "the target of the spell's effect" interchangeably (see e.g. Fireball which targets a point within range but also "targets" the creatures within that area). When target is defined in PHB Section 10, it only defines that term in the sense of "the target of the spell," so it would be reasonable to assume that other features that look for "the target" are generally talking about "the target of the spell" and not "the target of the spell's effect." Room to disagree there, really almost requires a case by case analysis of each feature....
But in this instance, for Find Steed? The RAI there is clearly intended that any spell you've cast on yourself will also be cast on your Steed, so a Smite -type spell that you carry a charge on, I would have no qualms about giving to the steed too. Unlike Sposta, I'd also let both PC and the Steed each get their own use of it on a melee attack, not just one for whichever attacks first.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
That is what I’m curious about. So if you take the wording in pass without trace...
“A veil of shadows and silence radiates from you, masking you and your companions from detection. For the duration, each creature you choose within 30 feet of you (including you) has a +10 bonus to Dexterity (Stealth) checks and can't be tracked except by magical means.”
...and the wording in ensnaring strike...
”The next time you hit a creature with a weapon attack before this spell ends, a writhing mass of thorny vines appears at the point of impact, and the target must succeed on a Strength saving throw or be restrained by the magical vines until the spell ends.“
If the share spells works for one why not the other? The wording is applied to both targets?
Find steed says a spell that targets only you.
Pass without trace says each creature you choose within a radius. That is more than only you, so no. I guess there could be a situation where you cast it, and there’s no one else around, so that it is technically targeting only you. I’d say that would probably be a DM ruling.
Smite spells, with a range of self, target only you, at least insofar as you can not cast the spell on the fighter next to you to let him use the spell. The spell targets you, the following attack targets someone else.
I personally think the big intent is to let you cast cure wounds on yourself and heal your mount as well, but the wording allows for some flexibility in cases like smite spells, or misty step (for ancients pallys), and probably others.
If ensnaring strike targets the enemy what happens if you miss.
Bonus action ensnearing strike, action attack bad guy 1, miss. The spell is still active and the target is presumably bad guy 1.
Next turn, action attack bad guy 2, hit. as it is the ffirst hit after the spell was cast bad guy 2 takes the effect, does this change the target of the spell I cast last turn?
No the target is me so it affects my next attack whoever it is on.
Pass Without Trace says Range: Self.
I let my Paladins cast smite spell on themselves and their mounts. Both get their own smite effect. I don't see why not. If you cast Cure Wounds, both would get healed, not just whoever was hurt first. It's not that big a deal. Mounts are fragile.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
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"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale