I have a fighter in my group who uses two weapons, a sabre and a short sword. He has two weapon fighting as his fighting style and the dual wielder feat.
How exactly does his attack work?
I tried reading it up in the rules but I still don't get it. Does he have to use a bonus action for his off hand swing? What happens when he uses extra attack? Or does he hit with both weapons on using his attack action?
Two weapon fighting, the rule, says that whenever you satisfy some conditions, you can take a Bonus action for an attack with your off-hand weapon. You don't add your ability modifier in that bonus attack (you do consider penalties, however). The conditions for this bonus action can be abbreviated as: "both 1-handed weapons you wield must be light".
So far so good? If you use the Attack action with a one-handed, light weapon, you can use a bonus action to make an additional attack with another one-handed, light weapon.
The Two weapon fighting style, now, removes the restriction about not adding your modifier on the damage of your bonus attack. Now both attacks are treated equally.
The Dual Wielder removes the restriction that requires your weapons to be light (among other things). You still need to hold one-handed weapons, but they can lack the light property, such as wielding a longsword and a shortsword, or two longswords.
The Extra Attack feature doesn't really conflict with any of the above. When you take the Attack action, you can make two attacks. The condition for two-weapon fighting is to take the Attack Action, regardless of how many attacks that allows you, and enables you to use a Bonus Action for that added benefit.
Putting all those together, your group's fighter, at level 5, can take an attack action for two attacks with his main weapon, then, if he so desires, can use his Bonus Action to make an additional attack with his off-hand. Because of his traits, he can do that even though the Saber isn't Light, and he adds his ability modifier on the damage of that bonus attack as well.
when wielding two weapons, the character gets to use the bonus action to make an attack with the second weapon, on top of the normal Attack action with the first weapon. This is true even if the character gets Extra Attack. Extra Attack determines how many attacks the character can do with the regular Attack action, then it always gets one more attack with the bonus action.
so with two weapon fighting and dual wield the main hand attack as well as the off hand attack are treated equally, meaning that he can add his ability mod to the atk roll AND the dmg roll ?
Seems we've been playing the right way all along :D However, i feel that most great weapon fighters deal alot more dmg. maybe a balancing issue?
Yes, ith the two-weapon fighting style, you can add the ability modifier to the damage roll. The dual wielder feat removes the light property restriction to the weapons (among other things).
I don't have much to add regarding the rules, but it's worth pointing out that the Dual Wielder feat is worse offensively than taking the ASI. The +1 AC can make it nice defensively, though DEX Fighters that choose the ASIs can hit 20 DEX by 6th level, giving them the same AC with light armor and better ranged attacks, DEX saves and ability checks (including Initiative).
Dual Wielder does become more appealing as the first level feat for a Variant Human (since it won't set you back on your attacking ability scores) or if the character gets a hold of a non-light one-handed magical weapon.
However, i feel that most great weapon fighters deal alot more dmg. maybe a balancing issue?
You could say that. Two weapon fighting current rules were designed with the rogue in mind - they wanted to make it a "meaningful" choice to decide between using two weapons, or just one. So, we ended up with the current rules as a way to compromise between doing more damage, or using Cunning Action.
The problem is that they then forgot to consider TWFing for the other major users - tempest fighters, sword dancer bards, drizz't style rangers. And with attunement rules, its tricky to get good weapons in each hand. So, balancing issues, yes.
You could say that. Two weapon fighting current rules were designed with the rogue in mind - they wanted to make it a "meaningful" choice to decide between using two weapons, or just one. So, we ended up with the current rules as a way to compromise between doing more damage, or using Cunning Action.
The problem is that they then forgot to consider TWFing for the other major users - tempest fighters, sword dancer bards, drizz't style rangers. And with attunement rules, its tricky to get good weapons in each hand. So, balancing issues, yes.
Two-handed weapons are slightly better for fighters, but the gap between two-handed weapons and two-weapon fighting is small.
The GWF fighter is going to be doing 2 * (8.66 + Mod), or 16.33 + 2 * Mod
The TWF fighter is going to be doing 3 * (3.5 + Mod), or 10.5 + 3 * Mod
Subtracting the TWF damage from the GWF damage leaves 5.83 - Mod. So with an ability modifier of 3 to 5, that leaves a difference per round of 0.83 to 2.83. (This gap is smaller for 1d12 weapon users: 3.83 - Mod.)
The GWF fighter has the advantage when it comes to Action Surge and opportunity attacks, but assuming the TWF fighter focused on DEX, they're going to have better initiative, DEX saves, Acrobatics, and make better use of ranged weapons. TWF also wastes less damage when finishing off enemies that only a bit of HP left.
Of course, subclasses like Samurai and Cavalier can really capitalize on two-handed weapons, but Eldritch Knights can capitalize on two-weapon fighting. Variant Humans can pick Dual Wielder at level 1 and still start with 16 DEX, while races with +2 DEX can start with 17 DEX and pick up the Resilient feat at 4th level, giving them proficiency in DEX saves while still hitting that +4 modifier. Mage Armor gives them +1 AC over light armor, letting them hit 18 AC at max DEX. Shield can bring that AC higher in a pinch, helping compensate for the lack of a shield. Absorb Elements complements the Resilient feat nicely. At level 8 they can pick up the new Shadow Blade spell; the 2d8 damage on that weapon and the advantage in darkness/dim light lets TWF stay competitive past level 11 when Extra Attack gets upgraded. This build can also work mostly the same way with a shield when survivability is important.
Also note that +1/+2/+3 weapons don't require attunement.
For other classes, TWF works just fine. Rangers get Hunter's Mark which naturally benefits from having more hits. Barbarians get a damage bonus on melee attacks while raging, which makes TWF viable for them, especially with 1 level in Fighter. College of Sword Bards get access to TWF Fighting Style and can pick up Shadow Blade with Magical Secrets if they want. Hexblade Warlocks with Pact of the Blade can use CHA to attack with their pact weapon and 1 other weapon, and also get access to Shadow Blade. Rogues naturally benefit from having two chances to Sneak Attack, and Arcane Tricksters can pick up Shadow Blade at level 7.
You 're ignoring some rather important things like bonus action competition, better feats for large weapons, Athletics being vastly better than acrobatics for dungeons, and class features that fail to support your view, like more than 1 Extra Attack and action surge. And more.
You 're ignoring some rather important things like bonus action competition, better feats for large weapons, Athletics being vastly better than acrobatics for dungeons, and class features that fail to support your view, like more than 1 Extra Attack and action surge. And more.
What dungeons have you played where Athletics has been important? I've only played Lost Mine of Phandelver and Curse of Strahd and I still haven't encountered any dungeon segments where high Athletics was required to proceed. Acrobatics is just as good in my opinion, since it can also be used to escape grapples or being knocked prone, but is also used for tumbling and keeping your balance in other situations.
I didn't leave out class features that fail to support my view; I mentioned the Samurai and Cavalier subclasses. I didn't feel the need to delve deeply there because it doesn't take a lot of work to see that Fighting Spirit and Unwavering Mark have better synergy with two-handed weapons. I also pointed out that Action Surge and opportunity attacks work better with two-handed weapons, and I brought up the second Extra Attack when discussing Shadow Blade.
Great Weapon Master feat is great, but the damage bonus pretty much requires advantage to be worth the attack penalty and you're also passing up on an ASI (unless you're picking it as the 1st level feat for a Variant Human). Polearm Master is also good, but again, you're losing an ASI, you're losing damage from picking a 1d12 weapon over a 2d6 weapon, and the damage die on the bonus attack is weak. And yes, the Dual Wielder feat is weak, but Defensive Duelist isn't, and neither is picking up DEX save proficiency with Resilient.
Again, I don't disagree that two-handed weapons are generally better for fighters. But I also don't think the gap between them is big enough that someone that really wants to play a TWF fighter shouldn't be able to. D&D is a storytelling game first and foremost, and having the optimal combat build isn't that important as long as you're not extremely sub-optimal.
What dungeons have you played where Athletics has been important?
That`s a bit impressive that you've never encountered it. I've consistantly used it for infiltrating a target mansion via rooftop as a rogue, jumping across pits in the Underdark, climbing walls/mountains/trees(stupid elf cities), forcing doors, and more.
Check out Xanathar's guide to traps part. Athletics is a key skill for dealing with traps, along with thief tools and Dispel Magic. "Once you determine how a trap can be disarmed or avoided, decide the appropriate ability and skill combinations that characters can use. A Dexterity check using thieves’ tools, a Strength (Athletics) check, and an Intelligence (Arcana) check are all commonly used for this purpose."
Did anyone actually say not to play a TWFer? No. The original comment talked a bit on why using two weapons seems to do a fair amount of less damage than two handed weapons from a design perspective - an over reaction against TWFing rogues being seen as a super prevalent. em to be a bit defensive on the issue?
That`s a bit impressive that you've never encountered it. I've consistantly used it for infiltrating a target mansion via rooftop as a rogue, jumping across pits in the Underdark, climbing walls/mountains/trees(stupid elf cities), forcing doors, and more.
Athletics is only needed for climbing difficult surfaces. So you can just send the Rogue/Monk/Tabaxi/whomever's actually good at climbing up first and have them throw down a rope.
Jump distance is based purely on Strength. One of the example uses of Athletics is "try to jump an unusually long distance" but there's no actual rules for that, and Jump is a 1st level spell available to many classes (even Rangers!). And like climbing, you can usually either send whomever's good at jumping up ahead, or there's an alternate route through the dungeon, because the adventure can't assume everyone can cross gaps of X feet.
Likewise, breaking down doors is usually a Strength check (though this can vary, because there's no generic rules for doors.) In fact, it's given as one of the examples in the DMG for Strength checks. Breaking down doors isn't a skill, it's a matter of how strong you are. And if your Strength isn't high enough, attacking the door with a bludgeoning weapon, picking the lock, or using Knock are also options.
I'm not saying either adventure I've run didn't have opportunities to use Athletics, but it's never been the only solution. And I don't think it makes sense to consider it essential for Fighters. It's a completely combat-focused class that only gets two skill proficiencies. Bards, Monks, Rangers and Rogues are better suited for that, either because they have more skill proficiencies (Bard, Rogue, Ranger), ways to boost their ability checks (Bard, Rogue), have a focus on exploration (Rogue, Ranger) or already have class features built into them (Thief Rogues, Monk).
Plus an Eldritch Knight can pick up Jump if they really want/need it.
However, i feel that most great weapon fighters deal alot more dmg. maybe a balancing issue?
You could say that. Two weapon fighting current rules were designed with the rogue in mind - they wanted to make it a "meaningful" choice to decide between using two weapons, or just one. So, we ended up with the current rules as a way to compromise between doing more damage, or using Cunning Action.
The problem is that they then forgot to consider TWFing for the other major users - tempest fighters, sword dancer bards, drizz't style rangers. And with attunement rules, its tricky to get good weapons in each hand. So, balancing issues, yes.
I do not agree with that as both paladins rangers have the fighting style built into them. The style was clearly designed with rangers and fighters in though. Considering the the benefits it gives. Only the basics was rogue considered. But in order to make it meangful to fighters compared to twf. They have reduced damage output on the gwf fighters because of lower damage weapons.
Now onto feats... Remember they are optionnal to begin with. Meaning right from the get go. They werent counted in the whole calculation to begin with.
As for drizzt style... Both his swords are shortswords to begin with. As even with feats in 3.0. There was no way to dual wield longswords without major minuses.
As for fighter dex benefitting more...
Thats false. Because longswords are not finesse weapon and thus a dex fighter will never ever use them to begin with. Hed have to use rapiers. And even there... If got 18 because of his race. At level 6 he will already have 20 dex and thus changing to rapiers for twf will be better then any asi.
Difference between twf and gwf fighters...
Basically the twf hits more often because multiple rolls. Gwf fighters hits less. But hits harder. So again choice of the fighter. Hit more often but for less damage or hit less for more damage. Thats why the gwf rerolls dice. To get more damage on the hit that actually hit.
Gwf fighter with 2 levels of barb for rage and reckless as well as champion archetypes hits like locomotive. More rolls more hits more damage. At level 6 if already at 20 strength. They pick great weapon master feat too. With reckless much less chance of missing even with minus 5 to attack. This how grog in critical roles at level 17 does 100+ damage a turn. Except he chose battle master instead of champion.
Example:
2d6 greatsword + 5 str + 10 gwm feat = average 22
Crit on 19-20
4d6 great sword + 5 str + 10 gwm feat = 29 average
The above both go beyong 30 if you add fighting style that rerolls the 1 and 2s. The crits becoming much closer to 40 damage average. Also reckless gives advatage. Much more chance of those crits and much more chances of hitting even with the minuses. Dont know by how many exactly but i can tell you. Its a lot !
Put you to the challenge of beating that with your twf dex fighters.
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finally the answer for restrictions on two weapon fighting. was not clear to me if the 2 weapon fighting fighting style still had the light weapon restriction.
As an aside, the two attacks from Extra Attack do not have to be made with the same weapon. A fighter with a scimitar and a hand axe could user an Action to make one attack with each weapon.
As an aside, the two attacks from Extra Attack do not have to be made with the same weapon. A fighter with a scimitar and a hand axe could user an Action to make one attack with each weapon.
True. They could even conceivably throw the hand axe and draw a new one for a second attack.
also to note, since all of the above applies greatly, a fighter level 20 with 3x extra attack, thus having 4 regular attacks and a bonus action attack. that gives them 5 attacks per turn. if they action surge, they can redo all extra attacks,. making them having a great 9 attacks for a single turn.... ouch ! that said, GWF fighters hits much more with a two hander then having 1 single extra attack thanks to bonus actions.
At Inquisitor... You seriously need to change DM or find a good one, if they let you use acrobatics on everything... i am sick of seeing DMs let acrobatics check climb mountains. as if parkour wasn't at all atlethics involved... anybody doing parkour would tell you... being in shape physically is much better then being agile in doing those.
also... grappling is strickly athletics, you can't grapple with acrobatics. so basically you are skipping on the most broken thing you can do as a fighter in attack of opportunity, that is grappling the foe which effectively reduce his speed to 0, thus no escaping you unless he uses an action to escape your grapple. that alone makes your dex fighter much much less interesting. other fact to note... gear wise your dex fighter requires much much more gears to make a good tank... a fighter in full plate has 18 AC. add those +3 bonuses, he gets 21. take your dex fighter, to capitalise on his AC, he requires to have a studded leather armor, which brings him only to 17, add the +3... thats only 20. you are 1 short. of course you could ask a wizard to cast mage armor on you and get all the way to 18. 13+dex... but then again you dont have any bonuses onto that. making you forced to have that full plate along with your deck, dex that wont be used at all in your AC calculations. you may think 1 single point of AC wont make a difference, but that would be false. because if it was that true... then i'd never use a fighter tank and simply always use an elf bladesingner whocan literally have 30 ac with major dexterity saves. making him much much much more viable then your dex fighter to begin with.
overall, dex fighters have their uses, and i agree the dex bonus could be tight... but i say a strength fighter with alert feat gets the same treatment. and +10 to initiatives is not really a necessity if you truly want that dex fighter... i suggest you take rogue at least 11 levels, and then add a bunch of fighter levels, at least 2. unless you truly want that awesome 9 attacks per turn. i think the sneak attack compares much more. there are tons of opportunities for strength to be greatly used, i think you are just having a bad DM who allows you too much freedom with your dexterity.
i'll finish by saying... any DM who allows the climbing of a tree or mountain by using actics, has never ever been doing it to know the truth.
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I agree with you that GWF at high levels is stronger than TWF since the additionall damage due to many attacks oughtways the little extra damage done by one bonus action attack.
Only one little remark: You should reread the rules to grappling and opportunity attacks. The grappling rules state that you have to take the attack ACTION to grapple or that (with extra attack) you can forgo one attack during that attack ACTION to grapple. Opportunity attacks however just give you one melee attack as reaction.
So in conclusion: You can NOT grapple on a opportunity attack.
Which is stupid considering d&d is made to anything yet by ruling you are very strick on what you do. But i get your point. Its true rules forbid you from trying to grab that goblin trying to escape your reach after attacking. I mean after all extending your arm is so hard to do. The same is true for long rest though... Impossible to do multiple time by 24 hours. Yet sleeping can easily be done multiple times a day.
For me changing it to a simple change an attack to a grapple is much more logical and do not break the game. But you are right... The rules does state the attack action. Which enable you to ready that attack action on that goblin.
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Hi folks!
I have a fighter in my group who uses two weapons, a sabre and a short sword. He has two weapon fighting as his fighting style and the dual wielder feat.
How exactly does his attack work?
I tried reading it up in the rules but I still don't get it. Does he have to use a bonus action for his off hand swing? What happens when he uses extra attack? Or does he hit with both weapons on using his attack action?
Thx in advance for your help!
Best wishes
Let's see all the effects one step at a time.
Two weapon fighting, the rule, says that whenever you satisfy some conditions, you can take a Bonus action for an attack with your off-hand weapon. You don't add your ability modifier in that bonus attack (you do consider penalties, however). The conditions for this bonus action can be abbreviated as: "both 1-handed weapons you wield must be light".
So far so good? If you use the Attack action with a one-handed, light weapon, you can use a bonus action to make an additional attack with another one-handed, light weapon.
The Two weapon fighting style, now, removes the restriction about not adding your modifier on the damage of your bonus attack. Now both attacks are treated equally.
The Dual Wielder removes the restriction that requires your weapons to be light (among other things). You still need to hold one-handed weapons, but they can lack the light property, such as wielding a longsword and a shortsword, or two longswords.
The Extra Attack feature doesn't really conflict with any of the above. When you take the Attack action, you can make two attacks. The condition for two-weapon fighting is to take the Attack Action, regardless of how many attacks that allows you, and enables you to use a Bonus Action for that added benefit.
Putting all those together, your group's fighter, at level 5, can take an attack action for two attacks with his main weapon, then, if he so desires, can use his Bonus Action to make an additional attack with his off-hand. Because of his traits, he can do that even though the Saber isn't Light, and he adds his ability modifier on the damage of that bonus attack as well.
Hi Reudig,
when wielding two weapons, the character gets to use the bonus action to make an attack with the second weapon, on top of the normal Attack action with the first weapon. This is true even if the character gets Extra Attack. Extra Attack determines how many attacks the character can do with the regular Attack action, then it always gets one more attack with the bonus action.
thanks for the quick answers.
so with two weapon fighting and dual wield the main hand attack as well as the off hand attack are treated equally, meaning that he can add his ability mod to the atk roll AND the dmg roll ?
Seems we've been playing the right way all along :D However, i feel that most great weapon fighters deal alot more dmg. maybe a balancing issue?
Yes, ith the two-weapon fighting style, you can add the ability modifier to the damage roll. The dual wielder feat removes the light property restriction to the weapons (among other things).
great!
thank you folks, you've been really helpful!
I don't have much to add regarding the rules, but it's worth pointing out that the Dual Wielder feat is worse offensively than taking the ASI. The +1 AC can make it nice defensively, though DEX Fighters that choose the ASIs can hit 20 DEX by 6th level, giving them the same AC with light armor and better ranged attacks, DEX saves and ability checks (including Initiative).
Dual Wielder does become more appealing as the first level feat for a Variant Human (since it won't set you back on your attacking ability scores) or if the character gets a hold of a non-light one-handed magical weapon.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
The GWF fighter has the advantage when it comes to Action Surge and opportunity attacks, but assuming the TWF fighter focused on DEX, they're going to have better initiative, DEX saves, Acrobatics, and make better use of ranged weapons. TWF also wastes less damage when finishing off enemies that only a bit of HP left.
Of course, subclasses like Samurai and Cavalier can really capitalize on two-handed weapons, but Eldritch Knights can capitalize on two-weapon fighting. Variant Humans can pick Dual Wielder at level 1 and still start with 16 DEX, while races with +2 DEX can start with 17 DEX and pick up the Resilient feat at 4th level, giving them proficiency in DEX saves while still hitting that +4 modifier. Mage Armor gives them +1 AC over light armor, letting them hit 18 AC at max DEX. Shield can bring that AC higher in a pinch, helping compensate for the lack of a shield. Absorb Elements complements the Resilient feat nicely. At level 8 they can pick up the new Shadow Blade spell; the 2d8 damage on that weapon and the advantage in darkness/dim light lets TWF stay competitive past level 11 when Extra Attack gets upgraded. This build can also work mostly the same way with a shield when survivability is important.
Also note that +1/+2/+3 weapons don't require attunement.
For other classes, TWF works just fine. Rangers get Hunter's Mark which naturally benefits from having more hits. Barbarians get a damage bonus on melee attacks while raging, which makes TWF viable for them, especially with 1 level in Fighter. College of Sword Bards get access to TWF Fighting Style and can pick up Shadow Blade with Magical Secrets if they want. Hexblade Warlocks with Pact of the Blade can use CHA to attack with their pact weapon and 1 other weapon, and also get access to Shadow Blade. Rogues naturally benefit from having two chances to Sneak Attack, and Arcane Tricksters can pick up Shadow Blade at level 7.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
You 're ignoring some rather important things like bonus action competition, better feats for large weapons, Athletics being vastly better than acrobatics for dungeons, and class features that fail to support your view, like more than 1 Extra Attack and action surge. And more.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
The Forum Infestation (TM)
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finally the answer for restrictions on two weapon fighting. was not clear to me if the 2 weapon fighting fighting style still had the light weapon restriction.
As an aside, the two attacks from Extra Attack do not have to be made with the same weapon. A fighter with a scimitar and a hand axe could user an Action to make one attack with each weapon.
True. They could even conceivably throw the hand axe and draw a new one for a second attack.
also to note, since all of the above applies greatly, a fighter level 20 with 3x extra attack, thus having 4 regular attacks and a bonus action attack. that gives them 5 attacks per turn. if they action surge, they can redo all extra attacks,. making them having a great 9 attacks for a single turn.... ouch ! that said, GWF fighters hits much more with a two hander then having 1 single extra attack thanks to bonus actions.
At Inquisitor...
You seriously need to change DM or find a good one, if they let you use acrobatics on everything...
i am sick of seeing DMs let acrobatics check climb mountains. as if parkour wasn't at all atlethics involved...
anybody doing parkour would tell you... being in shape physically is much better then being agile in doing those.
also... grappling is strickly athletics, you can't grapple with acrobatics. so basically you are skipping on the most broken thing you can do as a fighter in attack of opportunity, that is grappling the foe which effectively reduce his speed to 0, thus no escaping you unless he uses an action to escape your grapple. that alone makes your dex fighter much much less interesting. other fact to note... gear wise your dex fighter requires much much more gears to make a good tank... a fighter in full plate has 18 AC. add those +3 bonuses, he gets 21. take your dex fighter, to capitalise on his AC, he requires to have a studded leather armor, which brings him only to 17, add the +3... thats only 20. you are 1 short. of course you could ask a wizard to cast mage armor on you and get all the way to 18. 13+dex... but then again you dont have any bonuses onto that. making you forced to have that full plate along with your deck, dex that wont be used at all in your AC calculations. you may think 1 single point of AC wont make a difference, but that would be false. because if it was that true... then i'd never use a fighter tank and simply always use an elf bladesingner whocan literally have 30 ac with major dexterity saves. making him much much much more viable then your dex fighter to begin with.
overall, dex fighters have their uses, and i agree the dex bonus could be tight... but i say a strength fighter with alert feat gets the same treatment.
and +10 to initiatives is not really a necessity if you truly want that dex fighter... i suggest you take rogue at least 11 levels, and then add a bunch of fighter levels, at least 2. unless you truly want that awesome 9 attacks per turn. i think the sneak attack compares much more. there are tons of opportunities for strength to be greatly used, i think you are just having a bad DM who allows you too much freedom with your dexterity.
i'll finish by saying... any DM who allows the climbing of a tree or mountain by using actics, has never ever been doing it to know the truth.
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At DnDPaladin
I agree with you that GWF at high levels is stronger than TWF since the additionall damage due to many attacks oughtways the little extra damage done by one bonus action attack.
Only one little remark: You should reread the rules to grappling and opportunity attacks. The grappling rules state that you have to take the attack ACTION to grapple or that (with extra attack) you can forgo one attack during that attack ACTION to grapple. Opportunity attacks however just give you one melee attack as reaction.
So in conclusion: You can NOT grapple on a opportunity attack.
Which is stupid considering d&d is made to anything yet by ruling you are very strick on what you do. But i get your point. Its true rules forbid you from trying to grab that goblin trying to escape your reach after attacking. I mean after all extending your arm is so hard to do. The same is true for long rest though... Impossible to do multiple time by 24 hours. Yet sleeping can easily be done multiple times a day.
For me changing it to a simple change an attack to a grapple is much more logical and do not break the game. But you are right... The rules does state the attack action. Which enable you to ready that attack action on that goblin.
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
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