Edit is unreliable on DndBeyond, so I'm going to post a follow up to confess that I didn't realize that the extra attack Scout gets at 17 uses your bonus action, and thus competes with the bonus action offhand attack you get by dual wielding. So, take 9 damage off that at level 20.... but leave it on at levels 1-16.
Also, I got caught up in thinking about level 20, and didn't think much about lower levels... In between 1 and 16, the pure Scout is one attack per rotation behind the Rogue 11/Fighter 9 build, but several sneak attack dice ahead, sooo… I would guess probably still performing about on par with a rogue/fighter mix on turns where they aren't action surging.
overall, i knew the damage from that wasn't stellar compared to a full on rogue with 10d6 sneak atack. but we're talking about two weapon fighting here. the problem with rogue going two weapon fighting is that they aren't great at it at all. the biggest hurdle is rogue sneak attack which can be used twice in a round. one would be its primary attack, and if that miss, use the secondary attack to gain sneak attack. then using its reaction during someone else turn which allows it to use sneak attack again because its another turn. thus satisfying the once per turn rule. aside form that... lets imagine a rogue stabbing the first attack and sneak attacking it... then using its bonus action to attack again... even with the fighting style, even if everything we could do... its only ever gonna be 1d8+dexterity if he has both fighting style and the feat. thats never gonna be a great thing. sure it adds up by why lose time just to get the regular damage.
as for drizzt losing his disadvantage... there are so many ways for him to do that built in many archetype of the rogues that its not really warranting going scout for sure. a second level rogue already gives drizzt his advantage by just using bonus action to hide and then coming close and attack. boom no more disadvantage. at that by the built in rogue. thats why many rogues prefffer to do one big attack instead of going dual wielding, because the second attack is not stellar by any means. sure it adds up to damage per turn. but its not stellar compared to the multitude of dice the first attack did. hiding and then attacking with advantage is the way to go. for drizzt its even more important because of his sight.
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The drizzt thing is getting us so off track... but yes, there's lots of ways to balance out disadvantage and get back to a straight attack roll. What I'm saying is, Ranger 18 (definitely) and Rogue 14 (maybe, but probably not) go further and let you not suffer disadvantage in the first place, so that you can actually have advantage. Without a feature giving you some form of blindsight, a Drow will never ever have advantage in their entire life while above ground, which is frankly unacceptable.
Back to Two Weapon Fighting. Two weapon fighting is good for melee pure Rogues, because like you pointed out, all of their damage comes from Sneak Attack, and they don't get a second attack at level 5. Two weapon fighting equals twice the chances to successfully apply sneak attack on your turn. Dipping 5 levels into Fighter or Ranger or some other class that gives a second standard action attack at 5 is also a good way to get more opportunities to apply sneak attack, but lowers your sneak attack dice, and disqualifies you from the frankly unbeatable Scout 17 feature down the road.
you seem to think that scout is the only viable rogue choice for drizzt becaus eof damage only. but drizzt is everything except damage. from the books most of his damage comes off his flaming and icing blade. which is his key weapons. the original drizzt in 3e is not even close to a rogue, he is a ranger and his panther is his companion. but since rangers is not having any companion in 5e they would make it a figurine. but reality is, in 3e rangers two weapon fighting is the best because of all the advantage it gives off. because rangers in 3e were designed for close range fighting. but drizzt, was never a rogue to begin with. so yeah, "you" are beating a dead horse. "you" also take 5e mechanics into a mix that doesn't even apply. drizzt in 3e era didn'T have problems with disadvantage. and in the books, barely seem to have a problem with sight. so the least we could say is that he's probably accustomed to the sun because he has been living off there for very long. so in any case if you want to try and bring races into the mix, he'd be a different kind of drow. one without any spells but without any sunlight sensitivity either.
and yes, i agree to that... so i'll stop too. 8)
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yeah thats what i talked about, also notice how he removed the sunlight sensitivity trait from the drow. basically because drizzt is accustomed to living in he upper world, unlike the other drows. important to note also, he never had any talk with RA salvatore before making this. he simply created it based on what he thought would be fitting the charcater.
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With both two weapon fighting and dual wielding as a fighter you can use 2 Morning stars and add bonuses so my character can deal if both hit. 4D6+6 with a str of 16 correct? And with two longswords 2d8+6 With a +5 to hit with a prof of +2
With both two weapon fighting and dual wielding as a fighter you can use 2 Morning stars and add bonuses so my character can deal if both hit. 4D6+6 with a str of 16 correct? And with two longswords 2d8+6 With a +5 to hit with a prof of +2
Morningstars only do 1d8 not 2d6 damage, but otherwise, yes.
I'm still not understanding the part of the rule that calls the use of two-weapon fighting style as a bonus action. Does this not imply that the player has two make two separate attack rolls, rather than a single roll for both weapons?
I'm still not understanding the part of the rule that calls the use of two-weapon fighting style as a bonus action. Does this not imply that the player has two make two separate attack rolls, rather than a single roll for both weapons?
You always make a separate attack roll for each weapon. There are three separate but related things that people often get mixed up: Two Weapon Fighting which is a basic rule, the Two-Weapon Fighting Style available to Fighters, and the Dual Wielder feat. Those are all different things, but all relate to each other.
Here is the relevant information about how turns work:
Your Turn
On your turn, you can move a distance up to your speed and take one action. You decide whether to move first or take your action first. Your speed--sometimes called your walking speed--is noted on your character sheet.
The most common actions you can take are described in the Actions in Combat section. Many class features and other abilities provide additional options for your action.
You can forgo moving, taking an action, or doing anything at all on your turn. If you can't decide what to do on your turn, consider taking the Dodge or Ready action, as described in "Actions in Combat."
Bonus Actions
Various class features, spells, and other abilities let you take an additional action on your turn called a bonus action. The Cunning Action feature, for example, allows a rogue to take a bonus action. You can take a bonus action only when a special ability, spell, or other feature of the game states that you can do something as a bonus action. You otherwise don't have a bonus action to take.
You can take only one bonus action on your turn, so you must choose which bonus action to use when you have more than one available.
You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action's timing is specified, and anything that deprives you of your ability to take actions also prevents you from taking a bonus action.
Other Activity on Your Turn
Your turn can include a variety of flourishes that require neither your action nor your move.
You can communicate however you are able, through brief utterances and gestures, as you take your turn.
You can also interact with one object or feature of the environment for free, during either your move or your action. For example, you could open a door during your move as you stride toward a foe, or you could draw your weapon as part of the same action you use to attack.
If you want to interact with a second object, you need to use your action. Some magic items and other special objects always require an action to use, as stated in their descriptions.
The DM might require you to use an action for any of these activities when it needs special care or when it presents an unusual obstacle. For instance, the DM could reasonably expect you to use an action to open a stuck door or turn a crank to lower a drawbridge.
Reactions
Certain special abilities, spells, and situations allow you to take a special action called a reaction. A reaction is an instant response to a trigger of some kind, which can occur on your turn or on someone else's. The opportunity attack, described later in this section, is the most common type of reaction.
When you take a reaction, you can't take another one until the start of your next turn. If the reaction interrupts another creature's turn, that creature can continue its turn right after the reaction.
Here is the relevant information on two weapon fighting which anybody can do:
Two-Weapon Fighting
When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand. You don't add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative.
If either weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon, instead of making a melee attack with it.
Would it then be possible for a ranger to attack someone far away with a bow then quickly pull a short sword and do a bonus action attack on someone nearby?
Would it then be possible for a ranger to attack someone far away with a bow then quickly pull a short sword and do a bonus action attack on someone nearby?
You need to be holding the weapon you will use for the bonus action attack when you take the attack action. So, no.
Sort of getting back on topic with the dual wielding team I have a question concerning which weapons you are allowed to attack with as your bonus action. It was pointed out earlier that there is nothing stopping a fighter or other Marshall class from attacking with either weapon in either hand when they are two weapon fighting, but I’m curious if it’s the same for the bonus action attack or if it Hassit was pointed out earlier that there is nothing stopping a fighter or other Marshall class from attacking with either weapon in either hand when they are two weapon fighting, but I’m curious if it’s the same for the bonus action attack or if it Has to be the weapon on the offhand. The reason why I ask is because I’ve noticed a rather potentially busted combination you could do with flame blade.
Let’s assume you have a druidic focus on one hand, and you cast flame blade to summon the blade into the other hand. Now it’s assume you put away the druidic focus and draw another senator out. Flame blade specifies that you someone a blade that is similar to a scimitar but made a fire (it’s important to note that doesn’t actually say this summer andlet’s assume you have a druidic focus on one hand, and you cast flame blade to summon the blade into the other hand. Now it’s assume you put away the druidic focus and draw another scimitar out. Flame blade specifies that you summon a blade that is similar to a scimitar but made a fire (it’s important to note that doesn’t actually say this summoned blade has any properties) . The first question would be does this count as two women fighting. You are allowed to make a melee weapon attack with the flaming scimitar, and one could logically guess that if it’s in the shape of a scimitar that acts like a scimitar with its properties but it’s not explicitly said, so the first question becomes does it qualify in any regards for two womenThe first question would be does this count as two women fighting. You are allowed to make a melee weapon attack with the flaming scimitar, and one could logically guess that if it’s in the shape of a scimitar that acts like a scimitar with its properties but it’s not explicitly said, so the first question becomes does it qualify in any regards for two weapon fighting.
The next question regards which weapons you attack with when using your extra attack and bonus action dual wielding attack. It’s been mentioned above that when you take the extra attack that you could use either weapon in either hand. But when you use the bonus attack do you have to use the weather in the offhand, and if so doesn’t that seem arbitrary? Like could I just have the scimitar in my offhand and a normal light finesse weapon in my primary hand, then attack with my offhand as both of my attacks for the attack action and then again use my bonus action for the offhand weapon attack?
it’s a bit silly to think about that you would be using two weapons in your hands but only attacking with one but by rules it almost seems possible. note im assuming you have the feat which allows you to disregard the light property.
A little bit of clarification on which weapon past we used for the bonus attack would be appreciated. As well as any opinions on whether or not the flaming scimitar summoned by flame blade. Counts as a weapon that can be used for two weapon fighting
...The first question would be does this count as two women fighting...
I suppose that depends on the character and the enemy in question? :p
Flame Blade is a poor example for you to understand Two-Weapon Fighting with, because it isn't actually a weapon, and isn't used to make weapon attacks, and isn't ever eligible for making a Two-Weapon Fighting attack or becoming eligibile to make one with another weapon. It makes melee spell attacks.
The more basic question about if you were holding two Scimitar, one in each hand, call them "A" and "B", and are a character with the Extra Attack feature to be able to make more than one weapon attack during your Attack action...
So barring additional information to the contrary, that sounds like the Attack action to me.
Lolllll
I've got to admit, "you can use the Attack action to make non-weapon attacks with Flame Blade" wasn't what I expected to be the talking point de jure, but this should be good :)
Edit is unreliable on DndBeyond, so I'm going to post a follow up to confess that I didn't realize that the extra attack Scout gets at 17 uses your bonus action, and thus competes with the bonus action offhand attack you get by dual wielding. So, take 9 damage off that at level 20.... but leave it on at levels 1-16.
Also, I got caught up in thinking about level 20, and didn't think much about lower levels... In between 1 and 16, the pure Scout is one attack per rotation behind the Rogue 11/Fighter 9 build, but several sneak attack dice ahead, sooo… I would guess probably still performing about on par with a rogue/fighter mix on turns where they aren't action surging.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
overall, i knew the damage from that wasn't stellar compared to a full on rogue with 10d6 sneak atack. but we're talking about two weapon fighting here.
the problem with rogue going two weapon fighting is that they aren't great at it at all. the biggest hurdle is rogue sneak attack which can be used twice in a round. one would be its primary attack, and if that miss, use the secondary attack to gain sneak attack. then using its reaction during someone else turn which allows it to use sneak attack again because its another turn. thus satisfying the once per turn rule. aside form that... lets imagine a rogue stabbing the first attack and sneak attacking it... then using its bonus action to attack again... even with the fighting style, even if everything we could do... its only ever gonna be 1d8+dexterity if he has both fighting style and the feat. thats never gonna be a great thing. sure it adds up by why lose time just to get the regular damage.
as for drizzt losing his disadvantage... there are so many ways for him to do that built in many archetype of the rogues that its not really warranting going scout for sure.
a second level rogue already gives drizzt his advantage by just using bonus action to hide and then coming close and attack. boom no more disadvantage. at that by the built in rogue. thats why many rogues prefffer to do one big attack instead of going dual wielding, because the second attack is not stellar by any means. sure it adds up to damage per turn. but its not stellar compared to the multitude of dice the first attack did. hiding and then attacking with advantage is the way to go. for drizzt its even more important because of his sight.
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The drizzt thing is getting us so off track... but yes, there's lots of ways to balance out disadvantage and get back to a straight attack roll. What I'm saying is, Ranger 18 (definitely) and Rogue 14 (maybe, but probably not) go further and let you not suffer disadvantage in the first place, so that you can actually have advantage. Without a feature giving you some form of blindsight, a Drow will never ever have advantage in their entire life while above ground, which is frankly unacceptable.
Back to Two Weapon Fighting. Two weapon fighting is good for melee pure Rogues, because like you pointed out, all of their damage comes from Sneak Attack, and they don't get a second attack at level 5. Two weapon fighting equals twice the chances to successfully apply sneak attack on your turn. Dipping 5 levels into Fighter or Ranger or some other class that gives a second standard action attack at 5 is also a good way to get more opportunities to apply sneak attack, but lowers your sneak attack dice, and disqualifies you from the frankly unbeatable Scout 17 feature down the road.
We're beating a dead horse though, I'm done :)
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
you seem to think that scout is the only viable rogue choice for drizzt becaus eof damage only. but drizzt is everything except damage. from the books most of his damage comes off his flaming and icing blade. which is his key weapons. the original drizzt in 3e is not even close to a rogue, he is a ranger and his panther is his companion. but since rangers is not having any companion in 5e they would make it a figurine. but reality is, in 3e rangers two weapon fighting is the best because of all the advantage it gives off. because rangers in 3e were designed for close range fighting. but drizzt, was never a rogue to begin with. so yeah, "you" are beating a dead horse. "you" also take 5e mechanics into a mix that doesn't even apply. drizzt in 3e era didn'T have problems with disadvantage. and in the books, barely seem to have a problem with sight. so the least we could say is that he's probably accustomed to the sun because he has been living off there for very long. so in any case if you want to try and bring races into the mix, he'd be a different kind of drow. one without any spells but without any sunlight sensitivity either.
and yes, i agree to that... so i'll stop too. 8)
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
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Chris Perkins played as Drizzt in an Acquisitions Inc game as an 8th level fighter.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
yeah thats what i talked about, also notice how he removed the sunlight sensitivity trait from the drow. basically because drizzt is accustomed to living in he upper world, unlike the other drows. important to note also, he never had any talk with RA salvatore before making this. he simply created it based on what he thought would be fitting the charcater.
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games
--> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
With both two weapon fighting and dual wielding as a fighter you can use 2 Morning stars and add bonuses so my character can deal if both hit. 4D6+6 with a str of 16 correct? And with two longswords 2d8+6 With a +5 to hit with a prof of +2
Morningstars only do 1d8 not 2d6 damage, but otherwise, yes.
I'm still not understanding the part of the rule that calls the use of two-weapon fighting style as a bonus action. Does this not imply that the player has two make two separate attack rolls, rather than a single roll for both weapons?
You always make a separate attack roll for each weapon. There are three separate but related things that people often get mixed up: Two Weapon Fighting which is a basic rule, the Two-Weapon Fighting Style available to Fighters, and the Dual Wielder feat. Those are all different things, but all relate to each other.
Here is the relevant information about how turns work:
Here is the relevant information on two weapon fighting which anybody can do:
All of that information, as well as information about making attacks can be found in Chapter 9 of the Basic Rules
Here is the information about the fighting style:
And here is the information about the Dual Wielder feat:
I hope that was helpful. If you still have questions just ask.
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Would it then be possible for a ranger to attack someone far away with a bow then quickly pull a short sword and do a bonus action attack on someone nearby?
No.
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No.
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You need to be holding the weapon you will use for the bonus action attack when you take the attack action. So, no.
Sort of getting back on topic with the dual wielding team I have a question concerning which weapons you are allowed to attack with as your bonus action.
It was pointed out earlier that there is nothing stopping a fighter or other Marshall class from attacking with either weapon in either hand when they are two weapon fighting, but I’m curious if it’s the same for the bonus action attack or if it Hassit was pointed out earlier that there is nothing stopping a fighter or other Marshall class from attacking with either weapon in either hand when they are two weapon fighting, but I’m curious if it’s the same for the bonus action attack or if it Has to be the weapon on the offhand. The reason why I ask is because I’ve noticed a rather potentially busted combination you could do with flame blade.
Let’s assume you have a druidic focus on one hand, and you cast flame blade to summon the blade into the other hand. Now it’s assume you put away the druidic focus and draw another senator out. Flame blade specifies that you someone a blade that is similar to a scimitar but made a fire (it’s important to note that doesn’t actually say this summer andlet’s assume you have a druidic focus on one hand, and you cast flame blade to summon the blade into the other hand. Now it’s assume you put away the druidic focus and draw another scimitar out. Flame blade specifies that you summon a blade that is similar to a scimitar but made a fire (it’s important to note that doesn’t actually say this summoned blade has any properties) . The first question would be does this count as two women fighting. You are allowed to make a melee weapon attack with the flaming scimitar, and one could logically guess that if it’s in the shape of a scimitar that acts like a scimitar with its properties but it’s not explicitly said, so the first question becomes does it qualify in any regards for two womenThe first question would be does this count as two women fighting. You are allowed to make a melee weapon attack with the flaming scimitar, and one could logically guess that if it’s in the shape of a scimitar that acts like a scimitar with its properties but it’s not explicitly said, so the first question becomes does it qualify in any regards for two weapon fighting.
The next question regards which weapons you attack with when using your extra attack and bonus action dual wielding attack. It’s been mentioned above that when you take the extra attack that you could use either weapon in either hand. But when you use the bonus attack do you have to use the weather in the offhand, and if so doesn’t that seem arbitrary? Like could I just have the scimitar in my offhand and a normal light finesse weapon in my primary hand, then attack with my offhand as both of my attacks for the attack action and then again use my bonus action for the offhand weapon attack?
it’s a bit silly to think about that you would be using two weapons in your hands but only attacking with one but by rules it almost seems possible. note im assuming you have the feat which allows you to disregard the light property.
A little bit of clarification on which weapon past we used for the bonus attack would be appreciated. As well as any opinions on whether or not the flaming scimitar summoned by flame blade. Counts as a weapon that can be used for two weapon fighting
I suppose that depends on the character and the enemy in question? :p
Flame Blade is a poor example for you to understand Two-Weapon Fighting with, because it isn't actually a weapon, and isn't used to make weapon attacks, and isn't ever eligible for making a Two-Weapon Fighting attack or becoming eligibile to make one with another weapon. It makes melee spell attacks.
The more basic question about if you were holding two Scimitar, one in each hand, call them "A" and "B", and are a character with the Extra Attack feature to be able to make more than one weapon attack during your Attack action...
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
When you use the scimitar-ish weapon from flame blade, you do not take the attack action, so you cannot use it with two weapon fighting.
I think maybe you wrote this message using dictation, but this had me laughing out loud.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Can you cite a source for that? Because I can cite a source saying you do take the Attack action:
You use the Attack action to make a melee or ranged attack.
The action flame blade enables has no specified name but is used to make a melee attack.
So barring additional information to the contrary, that sounds like the Attack action to me.
Yeah, I think it still an attack, but the effect only looks like a scimitar and doesn't actually have the properties of one.
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Lolllll
I've got to admit, "you can use the Attack action to make non-weapon attacks with Flame Blade" wasn't what I expected to be the talking point de jure, but this should be good :)
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.