Ok so I'm making a backup character and I thought the soul knife subclass looked pretty cool so I went with that. Just on paper it seems pretty good between its resource management and versatility. The only gripe I really have is that the main offensive feature of the subclass, psychic blades, never really scales at all so whenever you get a +1 or +2 weapon it quickly becomes the weapon you use if the only other option is your fist. I enjoy a little min maxing, especially with the campaign I'm in and it being very unforgiving (this is my third character in I think 4 sessions which i'm fine with). My thoughts on how to make it better is this, take 3 levels in rogue for the blades to begin with then take 3 levels in Ranger for the dueling fighting style since it works with the blades and take either the hunter or swarmkeeper subclass, If you took Hunter take Colossus Slayer. Now for race you can go Vhuman for the fighting initiate feat and take thrown weapon fighting since it stacks with duelings damage when thrown. Now with a +3 in Dex you can do 1d6+7+1d4+7+1d8/6+1d8(Hunter's Mark). This is a dpr of 28 I think not even considering sneak attack which would put it at 35 dpr at level 6. This is my first time playing rogue but from what I've heard rogues do good dpr using their sneak attack but this would be pretty decent even without. Ok, I have no clue if its good at all at level 6 or if there are better options I'm not seeing so I would love to hear some thoughts or suggestions on it.
Unless you're trying to solo groups of enemies (tip- do not try to solo groups of enemies), you shouldn't actually have any problem reliably getting sneak attacks as a rogue. Soulblades in particular also don't benefit from two-weapon fighting as they already get an attack they can make as a bonus action.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Here's what you need to remember about Psychic Blades: you can have one attack with your Attack action, or you can have two attacks using both Attack action and Bonus Action, but you can't ever have two attacks with your Attack action or more than two attacks period.
Psychic Blades
3rd-level Soulknife feature
You can manifest your psionic power as shimmering blades of psychic energy. Whenever you take the Attack action, you can manifest a psychic blade from your free hand and make the attack with that blade. This magic blade is a simple melee weapon with the finesse and thrown properties. It has a normal range of 60 feet and no long range, and on a hit, it deals psychic damage equal to 1d6 plus the ability modifier you used for the attack roll. The blade vanishes immediately after it hits or misses its target, and it leaves no mark on its target if it deals damage.
After you attack with the blade, you can make a melee or ranged weapon attack with a second psychic blade as a bonus action on the same turn, provided your other hand is free to create it. The damage die of this bonus attack is 1d4, instead of 1d6.
What this means is, you don't want the Extra Attack feature, and you don't want to be a level 11 Hunter especially.
It is cool that you can use the Dueling fighting style on both PBs, since you only ever have one blade summoned at a time. So a small amount of Fighter or Ranger or Paladin or Bloodhunter levels to pick up a fighting style isn't awful! So as long as you're not intending to keep leveling the Hunter any further, and really just took it for level 3 Colossus Slayer... sure!
1d6+3+2+2+1d6 on your first throw (avg. 14) + sneak attack (avg. 7 at Rogue 3), and then 1d4+3+2+2+1d6+1d8 (avg. 18) certainly isn't bad! The 3 ranger levels are basically getting you +2 damage twice, +1d6 damage twice (though you have to skip a throw any turn you cast or move Hunter's Mark, s), and 1d8 damage once... that's about 15 damage per turn that those 3 Ranger levels are giving, but it's actually a bit less because you're going to be moving Hunter's Mark very often. What did those 3 levels cost you so far? To start, 1d6 sneak attack progression (3.5 damage), and slower access to the Rogue 4 feat that would have given you +2 dex (1 damage per hit and +5% chance to hit).
You're doing a little more damage against single big bad enemies as a Soulknife 3/Hunter 3 than you would be doing as a Soulknife 6 (and hey, you even have an extra skill), but it probably isn't as much as you think, and its probably LESS against multiple medium or weak targets. The pure Soulknife does an average of 1d6+4+2, + sneak attack 3d6, +1d4+4+2, with a +7 to hit bonus (roughly worth a +5% damage adjustment compared to the multiclass' +6 to hit bonus, because you're hitting 5% more often) ... call that average 30. And that 30 is not dependent on sticking to one target you're buffed against, like the Hunter MC is.
If you look at it over three rounds, and against realistic enemies that don't have hundreds of HP, this starts to emerge:
Hunter MC Round 1: Bonus to cast Hunter's Mark, then 1d6+3+2+2+1d6, + sneak attack (average 21)
MC damage over 3 rounds: 81 (27 DPR). Soulknife damage over 3 rounds: 90 (30 DPR). If that Hunter's Mark didn't move, the MC would have done 99 over 3 rounds (33 DPR), which is more than the Soulknife... but not much.
I think its a fine character, either way. But just remember that bonus actions basically cost attacks, you're giving up damage now for damage later. That isn't always a good thing, or practical when you aren't fighting a single giant or dragon or something.
See the top of post above. The blue part indicates that PB only manifests one blade per Attack, and vanished after first attack. Extra Attack and Action Surge can’t give more PB attacks, you would need to draw a real weapon.
Super thanks for the in-depth reply! Looking at what you said a pure soulknife does seem like it might be the better choice. There are a few things I want to note on however, It seems like you only added the extra damage from Colossus Slayer on round 2 for Hunter Mc and if giving up damage now for damage later is an issue I could take the favored foe optional feature and not have to use my first bonus action to cast Hunters mark. It would do less damage but maybe it makes up for it somewhat as you don't have to miss out on an attack? Also the reason I went Vhuman for the fighting initiate feat is since while dueling works with the psychic blades so does the thrown weapon fighting style if you huck the blades at enemies. Not sure if any of this would make it better than a pure soulknife though. Also why wouldnt psychic blades benefit from multiple attacks? I understand it disappears after making an attack but it says "Whenever you take the Attack action, you can manifest a psychic blade", wouldn't that mean that after the attack action is over it would disappear? So if you can make two attacks in one attack action you could still swipe twice with the blades before they disappear.
If you really want to go Ranger, you should also take a look at Gloomstalker... there's a ferocious amount of synergy with Rogue, and you get all of it by level 3.
If it read “you can manifest a blade in an empty hand any time you make an attack,” that might let multiple blades form (though, it would be odd to declare an attack with a blade before it manifested… maybe “as part of making an attack, you may manifest a blade to make that attack”?). Instead, when you take the Attack action, you manifest “A” single blade, which vanishes after the first attack no matter how many attacks that Attack may be able to contain. That’s the issue… it’s a very subtle wording problem, but as written, ONE blade for Attack, and ONE more optionally as a bonus (which MUST be in the other hand, no shields or dual wielding with a real weapon).
Its a pretty good subclass for rogues, because they like getting a second attack to land a Sneak Attack with! But it synergies poorly with almost any other class or feat you might be thinking about trying to merge with it…
The real downside to Soulknife is that Rogues can Sneak Attack with their Reactions too, but they cannot manifest their Soulknife as a Reaction. Personally, I would let them manifest the d6 for all attacks they make as part of the attack, and the d4 version for bonus actions and reactions. That’s how I ruled for the UA version anyway.
Hmmm it just seems odd to me, it wouldn't even be too powerful or anything if it was allowed to benefit from extra attacks
It's bizarrely nerfed. As others have pointed out, just to make OAs as a Soulknife you need to carry a real knife as a supplementary weapon, constantly dropping it to throw you psionic knives and then picking it back up so you can make Dex-based OAs. Plus, since your weapons only exist during their respective attacks, it's not just EA they don't work with during your turn - they don't exist long enough to be enchanted, and even if they did, they're destroyed at the end of the attack and then you make new ones. That means if you have someone in the party with magic weapon or elemental weapon or holy weapon, their assistance is useless to you. It's like WOTC has two rules devs: one gives us OP nonsense like Peace and Twilight Clerics, and the other gives us bizarrely nerfed nonsense like Wildfire Druids and Soulknives.
I agree that the OA restriction is pointless and dumb, but you have a really funny definition of "nerfed" if you think having infinite magic throwing daggers with Sharpshooter range and free TWF style that still stack with both Dueling and Thrown Weapon fighting styles is bad. Also, let's be real, those weapon buffs are wasted on any kind of Rogue unless you're using them for the sole purpose of ignoring resistance. The bread and butter Rogue buffs are Bless, Faerie Fire and Haste.
Soulknife are probably the BEST rogue subclass at being rogues, and acting like rogues (I.e., hit and run or ranged, not hanging around in melee pretending anyone is ever going to run from them and provoke an OA). It’s just, again, there’s no synergy to be found multiclassing them…. Which really is largely true for all rogues anyway.
I think my best bet is starting out with a level in fighter for some good armor and a shield, then just start leveling soulknife. This makes me good in almost all areas from dpr to tankiness. The only thing I would be lacking in is actual hp
Soulknife are probably the BEST rogue subclass at being rogues, and acting like rogues (I.e., hit and run or ranged, not hanging around in melee pretending anyone is ever going to run from them and provoke an OA). It’s just, again, there’s no synergy to be found multiclassing them…. Which really is largely true for all rogues anyway.
I’m tellin’ ya, check out an Arcane Trickster who takes a level in Wiz late tier 1 or early tier 2, and another late tier 2 / early tier 3 and you will be very happy you did. You trade two 4th-level Illusion or Enchantment Wizard spells from Trickster, but gain a second 4th-level slot so upcasting is viable with smart spell selections. That gets easier because a single level in Wiz now lets you ritual-cast a half-dozen of the games most useful rituals, doubles your cantrips, basically doubles your “prepared spells” with access to options previously unavailable, recharge a single spell slot… it basically doubles the “Arcane” in the Trickster. A day he second level in ASIs let’s you grab any 2 1st-level spells you really want and don’t already have, plus a subclass, like Bladesinger or Diviner. Imagine a Bladesinging Arcane Trickster with BB/G-FB. Yeah…. Sure, you loose 1d6 Sneak Attack, but you make it up with the blade cantrips, and Wizard subclass and additional 1st & 4th-level slots and Rituals.
I really wish the multiclassing rules didn't arbitrarily nerf that build's spell slots every 2 out of 3 levels.
In full honesty if people ever want to multiclass it sucks unless you dump a decent amount of levels into full caster classes due to higher spell slots(wizard being the designated addict of all the choices). Like if you want to make a eldritch knight actually magical or something like say a cleric turned rouge you have to worry about so many things mechanics, dm's allowance of said chosen multiclass, how it'll affect your play style, the party synergy, how the party feels about it...and that's all without facing the core thing why is your character doing this and how does it change them.
I agree that the OA restriction is pointless and dumb, but you have a really funny definition of "nerfed" if you think having infinite magic throwing daggers with Sharpshooter range and free TWF style that still stack with both Dueling and Thrown Weapon fighting styles is bad.
"Nerfed" doesn't mean "bad", it means "worse". And I stand by my claim that it's worse than it should be. There's no excuse whatsoever for the daggers being so weak relative to, say, a shortbow, on top of requiring a Soulknife to carry an additional real dagger for OA and other rule interactions.
Ok so I'm making a backup character and I thought the soul knife subclass looked pretty cool so I went with that. Just on paper it seems pretty good between its resource management and versatility. The only gripe I really have is that the main offensive feature of the subclass, psychic blades, never really scales at all so whenever you get a +1 or +2 weapon it quickly becomes the weapon you use if the only other option is your fist. I enjoy a little min maxing, especially with the campaign I'm in and it being very unforgiving (this is my third character in I think 4 sessions which i'm fine with). My thoughts on how to make it better is this, take 3 levels in rogue for the blades to begin with then take 3 levels in Ranger for the dueling fighting style since it works with the blades and take either the hunter or swarmkeeper subclass, If you took Hunter take Colossus Slayer. Now for race you can go Vhuman for the fighting initiate feat and take thrown weapon fighting since it stacks with duelings damage when thrown. Now with a +3 in Dex you can do 1d6+7+1d4+7+1d8/6+1d8(Hunter's Mark).
This is a dpr of 28 I think not even considering sneak attack which would put it at 35 dpr at level 6. This is my first time playing rogue but from what I've heard rogues do good dpr using their sneak attack but this would be pretty decent even without. Ok, I have no clue if its good at all at level 6 or if there are better options I'm not seeing so I would love to hear some thoughts or suggestions on it.
Unless you're trying to solo groups of enemies (tip- do not try to solo groups of enemies), you shouldn't actually have any problem reliably getting sneak attacks as a rogue. Soulblades in particular also don't benefit from two-weapon fighting as they already get an attack they can make as a bonus action.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Here's what you need to remember about Psychic Blades: you can have one attack with your Attack action, or you can have two attacks using both Attack action and Bonus Action, but you can't ever have two attacks with your Attack action or more than two attacks period.
What this means is, you don't want the Extra Attack feature, and you don't want to be a level 11 Hunter especially.
It is cool that you can use the Dueling fighting style on both PBs, since you only ever have one blade summoned at a time. So a small amount of Fighter or Ranger or Paladin or Bloodhunter levels to pick up a fighting style isn't awful! So as long as you're not intending to keep leveling the Hunter any further, and really just took it for level 3 Colossus Slayer... sure!
1d6+3+2+2+1d6 on your first throw (avg. 14) + sneak attack (avg. 7 at Rogue 3), and then 1d4+3+2+2+1d6+1d8 (avg. 18) certainly isn't bad! The 3 ranger levels are basically getting you +2 damage twice, +1d6 damage twice (though you have to skip a throw any turn you cast or move Hunter's Mark, s), and 1d8 damage once... that's about 15 damage per turn that those 3 Ranger levels are giving, but it's actually a bit less because you're going to be moving Hunter's Mark very often. What did those 3 levels cost you so far? To start, 1d6 sneak attack progression (3.5 damage), and slower access to the Rogue 4 feat that would have given you +2 dex (1 damage per hit and +5% chance to hit).
You're doing a little more damage against single big bad enemies as a Soulknife 3/Hunter 3 than you would be doing as a Soulknife 6 (and hey, you even have an extra skill), but it probably isn't as much as you think, and its probably LESS against multiple medium or weak targets. The pure Soulknife does an average of 1d6+4+2, + sneak attack 3d6, +1d4+4+2, with a +7 to hit bonus (roughly worth a +5% damage adjustment compared to the multiclass' +6 to hit bonus, because you're hitting 5% more often) ... call that average 30. And that 30 is not dependent on sticking to one target you're buffed against, like the Hunter MC is.
If you look at it over three rounds, and against realistic enemies that don't have hundreds of HP, this starts to emerge:
MC damage over 3 rounds: 81 (27 DPR). Soulknife damage over 3 rounds: 90 (30 DPR). If that Hunter's Mark didn't move, the MC would have done 99 over 3 rounds (33 DPR), which is more than the Soulknife... but not much.
I think its a fine character, either way. But just remember that bonus actions basically cost attacks, you're giving up damage now for damage later. That isn't always a good thing, or practical when you aren't fighting a single giant or dragon or something.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
See the top of post above. The blue part indicates that PB only manifests one blade per Attack, and vanished after first attack. Extra Attack and Action Surge can’t give more PB attacks, you would need to draw a real weapon.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Super thanks for the in-depth reply! Looking at what you said a pure soulknife does seem like it might be the better choice. There are a few things I want to note on however, It seems like you only added the extra damage from Colossus Slayer on round 2 for Hunter Mc and if giving up damage now for damage later is an issue I could take the favored foe optional feature and not have to use my first bonus action to cast Hunters mark. It would do less damage but maybe it makes up for it somewhat as you don't have to miss out on an attack? Also the reason I went Vhuman for the fighting initiate feat is since while dueling works with the psychic blades so does the thrown weapon fighting style if you huck the blades at enemies. Not sure if any of this would make it better than a pure soulknife though. Also why wouldnt psychic blades benefit from multiple attacks? I understand it disappears after making an attack but it says "Whenever you take the Attack action, you can manifest a psychic blade", wouldn't that mean that after the attack action is over it would disappear? So if you can make two attacks in one attack action you could still swipe twice with the blades before they disappear.
Read the ability's full description: after you attack with a psychic blade, it vanishes.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Hmmm it just seems odd to me, it wouldn't even be too powerful or anything if it was allowed to benefit from extra attacks
If you really want to go Ranger, you should also take a look at Gloomstalker... there's a ferocious amount of synergy with Rogue, and you get all of it by level 3.
If it read “you can manifest a blade in an empty hand any time you make an attack,” that might let multiple blades form (though, it would be odd to declare an attack with a blade before it manifested… maybe “as part of making an attack, you may manifest a blade to make that attack”?). Instead, when you take the Attack action, you manifest “A” single blade, which vanishes after the first attack no matter how many attacks that Attack may be able to contain. That’s the issue… it’s a very subtle wording problem, but as written, ONE blade for Attack, and ONE more optionally as a bonus (which MUST be in the other hand, no shields or dual wielding with a real weapon).
Its a pretty good subclass for rogues, because they like getting a second attack to land a Sneak Attack with! But it synergies poorly with almost any other class or feat you might be thinking about trying to merge with it…
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
The real downside to Soulknife is that Rogues can Sneak Attack with their Reactions too, but they cannot manifest their Soulknife as a Reaction. Personally, I would let them manifest the d6 for all attacks they make as part of the attack, and the d4 version for bonus actions and reactions. That’s how I ruled for the UA version anyway.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
It's bizarrely nerfed. As others have pointed out, just to make OAs as a Soulknife you need to carry a real knife as a supplementary weapon, constantly dropping it to throw you psionic knives and then picking it back up so you can make Dex-based OAs. Plus, since your weapons only exist during their respective attacks, it's not just EA they don't work with during your turn - they don't exist long enough to be enchanted, and even if they did, they're destroyed at the end of the attack and then you make new ones. That means if you have someone in the party with magic weapon or elemental weapon or holy weapon, their assistance is useless to you. It's like WOTC has two rules devs: one gives us OP nonsense like Peace and Twilight Clerics, and the other gives us bizarrely nerfed nonsense like Wildfire Druids and Soulknives.
I agree that the OA restriction is pointless and dumb, but you have a really funny definition of "nerfed" if you think having infinite magic throwing daggers with Sharpshooter range and free TWF style that still stack with both Dueling and Thrown Weapon fighting styles is bad. Also, let's be real, those weapon buffs are wasted on any kind of Rogue unless you're using them for the sole purpose of ignoring resistance. The bread and butter Rogue buffs are Bless, Faerie Fire and Haste.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
Soulknife are probably the BEST rogue subclass at being rogues, and acting like rogues (I.e., hit and run or ranged, not hanging around in melee pretending anyone is ever going to run from them and provoke an OA). It’s just, again, there’s no synergy to be found multiclassing them…. Which really is largely true for all rogues anyway.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I think my best bet is starting out with a level in fighter for some good armor and a shield, then just start leveling soulknife. This makes me good in almost all areas from dpr to tankiness. The only thing I would be lacking in is actual hp
You’ll only get one attack per turn if you wear a shield. Unless you’re building for low dexterity, heavy armor will not help you.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I’m tellin’ ya, check out an Arcane Trickster who takes a level in Wiz late tier 1 or early tier 2, and another late tier 2 / early tier 3 and you will be very happy you did. You trade two 4th-level Illusion or Enchantment Wizard spells from Trickster, but gain a second 4th-level slot so upcasting is viable with smart spell selections. That gets easier because a single level in Wiz now lets you ritual-cast a half-dozen of the games most useful rituals, doubles your cantrips, basically doubles your “prepared spells” with access to options previously unavailable, recharge a single spell slot… it basically doubles the “Arcane” in the Trickster. A day he second level in ASIs let’s you grab any 2 1st-level spells you really want and don’t already have, plus a subclass, like Bladesinger or Diviner. Imagine a Bladesinging Arcane Trickster with BB/G-FB. Yeah…. Sure, you loose 1d6 Sneak Attack, but you make it up with the blade cantrips, and Wizard subclass and additional 1st & 4th-level slots and Rituals.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
I really wish the multiclassing rules didn't arbitrarily nerf that build's spell slots every 2 out of 3 levels.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
In full honesty if people ever want to multiclass it sucks unless you dump a decent amount of levels into full caster classes due to higher spell slots(wizard being the designated addict of all the choices). Like if you want to make a eldritch knight actually magical or something like say a cleric turned rouge you have to worry about so many things mechanics, dm's allowance of said chosen multiclass, how it'll affect your play style, the party synergy, how the party feels about it...and that's all without facing the core thing why is your character doing this and how does it change them.
"Nerfed" doesn't mean "bad", it means "worse". And I stand by my claim that it's worse than it should be. There's no excuse whatsoever for the daggers being so weak relative to, say, a shortbow, on top of requiring a Soulknife to carry an additional real dagger for OA and other rule interactions.
Huh? Two psychic blade attacks deal more damage than one Steady Aim shortbow attack.
The Forum Infestation (TM)