I'm playing an Aberrant Mind sorc in Avernus. He is built to be a controller/manipulator but devils have magic resistance so to be effective I think I need to pick up a buff spell at 6th level. I was initially thinking haste but enlarge/reduce might be a pretty good option too, especially considering its level 2 rather than 3.
The party is me, a wild magic barb, open hand monk, life cleric, eloquence bard, plus a fighter NPC with 3 attacks. I already have hypnotic pattern, enemies abound and counterspell for 3rd level spells and detect thoughts, calm emotions, suggestion and tasha's mind whip for 2nd.
I'm thinking twin casting enlarge on the monk and NPC gives 6-7 attacks per round a chance for 1d4 extra damage and is more efficient in terms of sorcery points and spell slots would be close to equivalent in terms of power to haste, if not even better.
Also, I'd need to come up with some sort of psionic flavor for enlarge/reduce. I'm playing my AM sorc more like Jean Grey than Cthulu.
Haste provides much greater mobility, which allows for party members to close distance more effectively, while getting into tactical positioning. The extra attack it provides will synergize well with magic weapons.
Enlarge/Reduce can allow a tank to occupy an entire hallway, or threaten 11 squares simultaneously (Or more with a reach weapon). It can also be used offensively, however, large creatures often have high Constitution, which isn't ideal.
If you are playing in open spaces, mobility is going to be more valuable, but if you are playing in confined spaces, then size manipulation is going to come in handy.
Most effective way to fight against magic resistant creatures is through summons and minions. I don’t know which summon spell and when Aberrant Mind Sorcerers get it, but you could always invest in things like Animate Dead or Tiny Servants.
Enlarge/Reduce has an additional function that makes it a bit more valuable than haste in some situations... it has outside-of-combat utility. Got a giant rock blocking a path ahead of you? Reduce it in size, kick it off to the side, and move forward. Need to get up a tall cliff? Enlarge one person and have them ferry everyone up top. There's a lot of utility you can get out of this spell, whereas Haste, outside of combat, is really only helpful if you need one character to cover a lot of ground very quickly.
Enlarge/Reduce has an additional function that makes it a bit more valuable than haste in some situations...
Somehow I've managed to completely overlook that Enlarge/Reduce can target objects. It also doesn't put a cap on how large of a target can be affected.
However, the rules do have a specific definition of an object:
"For the Purpose of these rules, an object is a discrete, inanimate item like a window, door, sword, book, table, chair, or stone, not a building or a vehicle that is composed of many other objects."
Windows and doors are both part of a more complicated structure, so one could totally compromise bridges or tunnels by shrinking keystones. Whereas Enlarge can't cause structural damage due to being limited by the confining space, there is, in principle, nothing stopping an object from getting smaller within its own space.
If you want a spell to buff an ally with only one or two attacks that each happen to do high damage, then Haste is the place. The more damage they deal on a hit, the more of a force multiplier that additional attack becomes.
If you want a spell to buff an ally with lots of attacks that do lower damage per hit, Enlarge/Reduce all day long. The more attacks they make, the more significant a force multiplier that additional 1d4 becomes. (Unless they can’t hit for beans. 🤷♂️)
So who do you expect to cast it on the most, a Dual-Wielding 3rd-tier Fighter with 4 attacks per round but nothing bigger than a d8, or is it instead a Half-Orc War Cleric?
If you want a spell that can buff mobility and/or damage, either as double threat in combat to make them “better, faster, stronger,” or even in noncombsat situations speed is critical, nuthin’ but Haste.
If you want a spell that can be as useful to cast on a hostile as it is for an ally, Enlarge/Reduce. Sometimes, making the other guy ‘itteleer is just as beneficial if not more so.
Which of those alternate uses seems like something you would rather have in your back pocket just in case?
If you want a spell that you can cast on a single ally and make them far more survivable in-terms of both AC and Dex Saves, the more hase is what you want.
If you want a spell that can help the party with exploration by either making someone that big to climb somewhere, boost smaller PCs, or simply reach “just… a little… further; or by instead making them smaller to fit where nobody else can, then just th loses
So, which of those two tertiary benefits would you rather have in a pinch, being able to add defensive buffs or a variety of exploration options?
The trickiest part about it is they are both great multitasker spells that have way more usefulness than many realize muck of the time. But of those two mulitools which would you rather have on your belt “just in case“ for the majority of situations you anticipate, or worry about the most.
The thing about Enlarge is that it only adds about 2.5 extra damage per hit. You've got to have a very low damage per attack combined with a lot of attacks to really make that superior to simply getting another hit in. Even on a hypothetical Tier 3 fighter with TWF, that's an average of 10 extra damage per round, assuming all attacks hit. If their normal attack is 1d8+6 (which could be on the low side for the tier, depending on potential magic items), they've broken even compared to gaining an extra attack with Haste. And Haste grants other bonuses on top of that which also assist a fighter in combat.
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I like enlarge (or use of a potion of growth) for an occasional injection of flavour. Nothing better, if you have a rune knight, a high CR wildshaper or an ally already polymorphed into a giant ape, to THEN FURTHER BUFF THAT SIZE SOME MORE. :D
In other situations, especially where infiltration approaches might be useful, I'd go with haste.
Your hasted allies might also be better able to chase that white harengon down the rabbit hole.
The thing about Enlarge is that it only adds about 2.5 extra damage per hit. You've got to have a very low damage per attack combined with a lot of attacks to really make that superior to simply getting another hit in. Even on a hypothetical Tier 3 fighter with TWF, that's an average of 10 extra damage per round, assuming all attacks hit. If their normal attack is 1d8+6 (which could be on the low side for the tier, depending on potential magic items), they've broken even compared to gaining an extra attack with Haste. And Haste grants other bonuses on top of that which also assist a fighter in combat.
True, but enlarge/reduce also has other benefits as well in different areas, as does haste. IMO it’s a matter of comparing everything, all pros and cons and picking the best all around fit for the party and the PC. Yes, hast will likely eek out (or blow away) enlarge for DPR, but it isn’t “haste/slow,” just haste. Haste can’t help the Halfling rogue fit through the Tiny hole into the next room to do rogue stuff, but Reduce can, and won’t negatively impact their DPR too significantly to worry about because -1d4 from Sneak Attack negligible. To only compare DPR boosts is myopic when there are so many factors that legitimately lend weight to the decision in various ways.
Getting some damage boost and a lot of exploration/utility options with E/R might be more appealing than a higher boost to DPR and other in-combat bonuses, but only the specific non-combat benefits of speed and a boost to Dex saves for a minute. Would haste help a PC run from semi-molten rock to semi-molten rock across a river of lava, dodging spurts of liquid death as bubbles pop? Sure. Could it help the Tabaxi Monk cross the distance even faster to save the Blacksmith’s daughter from certain death before the candle flame burns through her rope and drops her into the volcano? Sure. Can E/R do that? No. But E/R can shrink the BBE so you could punt kick them, or grow the Goliath to the size where they can literally pick the party up one-by-one and place them down waaayy the heck up there where they need to be. Or make the Large Rune Knight Huge and now just large enough to try to grapple the tarrasque. Pros and Cons.
If it makes sense for your character and if you're an imaginative player, then Enlarge/Reduce is golden. It's a great problem-solving spell, allowing you to buff good guys, debuff bad guys (albeit not very reliably), jam up passageways, squeeze through smaller passageways, open doors without bribing the rogue, hide things, make things utterly annoying, play practical jokes, reach the top shelf, reach the bottom shelf without bending over, fit into all of your old clothes, commit sabotage, commit fraud, and all sorts of other stuff that calls a clever wizard to the school of transmutation. Beyond being very useful, I think it's a very entertaining spell.
But your character is trapped in Avernus, yes? It might make more sense for your character to glom onto any sort of combat magic that they can just to survive. I'd expect Haste to be better for that in most cases. An utterly uninspired spell choice but very powerful. Don't get me wrong, I don't fault any of our magic-users for taking such a boring spell--it's certainly saved the party more often than not.
I'm still fairly torn between the two. I like that E/R is just a second level spell making it more efficient in terms of sorcery points to twin, but I do think that haste is the better combat buff spell.
The biggest obstacle I have at the moment from being able to actually take E/R is the RP flavor of it. I'm playing my character as more of a psionic using his psychic and telekinetic powers than someone manipulating the weave. I can flavor Haste as reaching into the others minds and give a temporary boost to their adrenal glands, but I'm unsure how I could flavor E/R that way. The only thing I can think is that he telekinetically rearranges the molecules, but having that sort of ability seems way to powerful.
Worst case scenario, if you really get stuck, you could talk to your DM about something custom. Maybe you could find a "Wand of X", or you could modify a class feature to give you an extra spell slot, etc.
Show your DM that you are willing to invest in-game energy to achieve your goals, and they will likely meet you halfway.
I'm still fairly torn between the two. I like that E/R is just a second level spell making it more efficient in terms of sorcery points to twin, but I do think that haste is the better combat buff spell.
The biggest obstacle I have at the moment from being able to actually take E/R is the RP flavor of it. I'm playing my character as more of a psionic using his psychic and telekinetic powers than someone manipulating the weave. I can flavor Haste as reaching into the others minds and give a temporary boost to their adrenal glands, but I'm unsure how I could flavor E/R that way. The only thing I can think is that he telekinetically rearranges the molecules, but having that sort of ability seems way to powerful.
Any suggestions?
Interdimensional multiversal nonsense: your power works by finding a universe which contains a copy of the target identical in every respect except for its size and swapping the two, and when the spell wears off, it repeats the trick of finding a suitable copy. This means the spell doesn't alter anyone's memories, but does leave your original team-mate and their multiversal clone stranded in some universe - every time the spell ends you end up with a second multiversal clone whose memories don't acknowledge themselves as such because the spell made sure the copy it found had the right memories. Just don't tell them and they should be able to avoid an existential crisis.
There it is. If you are only looking at things as a purely combat buff, then of the two, haste will almost always yield noticeably more favorable results. If, on the other hand, you’re looking for a solid combat boost with a broader array of other uses, then E/R will often be potentially useful in more situations.
Haste is vastly superior in most situations. Enlarge/Reduce is a weak spell overall, while Twinned Haste is borderline overpowered. Just make sure you don't lose concentration!
Haste is vastly superior in most situations. Enlarge/Reduce is a weak spell overall, while Twinned Haste is borderline overpowered. Just make sure you don't lose concentration!
I don't agree. Enlarge is a fantastic buff and preferable on a frontline tank who likes to use the shove or grapple action. Even more so if they have something like the Shield Master or Grappler feat. Its also much better for out of combat utility IMO but both are great!
Yea, enlarge can be useful…not sure if it’s worth twinning though. Twinning a chromatic orb is far more damage then enlarge. For battlefield control it has value but not as much as say Haste with the movement speed and +2 AC
Haste is vastly superior in most situations. Enlarge/Reduce is a weak spell overall, while Twinned Haste is borderline overpowered. Just make sure you don't lose concentration!
I don't agree. Enlarge is a fantastic buff and preferable on a frontline tank who likes to use the shove or grapple action. Even more so if they have something like the Shield Master or Grappler feat. Its also much better for out of combat utility IMO but both are great!
.... If you are only looking at things as a purely combat buff, then of the two, haste will almost always yield noticeably more favorable results. If, on the other hand, you’re looking for a solid combat boost with a broader array of other uses, then E/R will often be potentially useful in more situations.
I don't see Enlarge/Reduce as a weak spell and if I wanted to make sure I don't lose concentration, I'd be quite happy (though perhaps in a more prolonged battle) for that enlarged party member to soak up the hits. (It's also worth noting though that enlarge can be limiting if you get faced with narrow entranceways).
A front line with an enlarged barbarian and fighter and normal sided monk flitting about could be quite effective with your sorcerer rubbing their hands at the back as long as they had suitable spells to cast at distance.
Thanks for your input everyone. We hit 6th level and I went with haste. I'm still pretty undecided about which one I really prefer, but I couldn't really think of a decent psionic flavor for E/R.
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I'm playing an Aberrant Mind sorc in Avernus. He is built to be a controller/manipulator but devils have magic resistance so to be effective I think I need to pick up a buff spell at 6th level. I was initially thinking haste but enlarge/reduce might be a pretty good option too, especially considering its level 2 rather than 3.
The party is me, a wild magic barb, open hand monk, life cleric, eloquence bard, plus a fighter NPC with 3 attacks. I already have hypnotic pattern, enemies abound and counterspell for 3rd level spells and detect thoughts, calm emotions, suggestion and tasha's mind whip for 2nd.
I'm thinking twin casting enlarge on the monk and NPC gives 6-7 attacks per round a chance for 1d4 extra damage and is more efficient in terms of sorcery points and spell slots would be close to equivalent in terms of power to haste, if not even better.
Also, I'd need to come up with some sort of psionic flavor for enlarge/reduce. I'm playing my AM sorc more like Jean Grey than Cthulu.
Haste provides much greater mobility, which allows for party members to close distance more effectively, while getting into tactical positioning. The extra attack it provides will synergize well with magic weapons.
Enlarge/Reduce can allow a tank to occupy an entire hallway, or threaten 11 squares simultaneously (Or more with a reach weapon). It can also be used offensively, however, large creatures often have high Constitution, which isn't ideal.
If you are playing in open spaces, mobility is going to be more valuable, but if you are playing in confined spaces, then size manipulation is going to come in handy.
Neither.
Most effective way to fight against magic resistant creatures is through summons and minions. I don’t know which summon spell and when Aberrant Mind Sorcerers get it, but you could always invest in things like Animate Dead or Tiny Servants.
Enlarge/Reduce has an additional function that makes it a bit more valuable than haste in some situations... it has outside-of-combat utility. Got a giant rock blocking a path ahead of you? Reduce it in size, kick it off to the side, and move forward. Need to get up a tall cliff? Enlarge one person and have them ferry everyone up top. There's a lot of utility you can get out of this spell, whereas Haste, outside of combat, is really only helpful if you need one character to cover a lot of ground very quickly.
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Somehow I've managed to completely overlook that Enlarge/Reduce can target objects. It also doesn't put a cap on how large of a target can be affected.
However, the rules do have a specific definition of an object:
Windows and doors are both part of a more complicated structure, so one could totally compromise bridges or tunnels by shrinking keystones. Whereas Enlarge can't cause structural damage due to being limited by the confining space, there is, in principle, nothing stopping an object from getting smaller within its own space.
If you want a spell to buff an ally with only one or two attacks that each happen to do high damage, then Haste is the place. The more damage they deal on a hit, the more of a force multiplier that additional attack becomes.
If you want a spell to buff an ally with lots of attacks that do lower damage per hit, Enlarge/Reduce all day long. The more attacks they make, the more significant a force multiplier that additional 1d4 becomes. (Unless they can’t hit for beans. 🤷♂️)
So who do you expect to cast it on the most, a Dual-Wielding 3rd-tier Fighter with 4 attacks per round but nothing bigger than a d8, or is it instead a Half-Orc War Cleric?
If you want a spell that can buff mobility and/or damage, either as double threat in combat to make them “better, faster, stronger,” or even in noncombsat situations speed is critical, nuthin’ but Haste.
If you want a spell that can be as useful to cast on a hostile as it is for an ally, Enlarge/Reduce. Sometimes, making the other guy ‘itteleer is just as beneficial if not more so.
Which of those alternate uses seems like something you would rather have in your back pocket just in case?
If you want a spell that you can cast on a single ally and make them far more survivable in-terms of both AC and Dex Saves, the more hase is what you want.
If you want a spell that can help the party with exploration by either making someone that big to climb somewhere, boost smaller PCs, or simply reach “just… a little… further; or by instead making them smaller to fit where nobody else can, then just th loses
So, which of those two tertiary benefits would you rather have in a pinch, being able to add defensive buffs or a variety of exploration options?
The trickiest part about it is they are both great multitasker spells that have way more usefulness than many realize muck of the time. But of those two mulitools which would you rather have on your belt “just in case“ for the majority of situations you anticipate, or worry about the most.
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The thing about Enlarge is that it only adds about 2.5 extra damage per hit. You've got to have a very low damage per attack combined with a lot of attacks to really make that superior to simply getting another hit in. Even on a hypothetical Tier 3 fighter with TWF, that's an average of 10 extra damage per round, assuming all attacks hit. If their normal attack is 1d8+6 (which could be on the low side for the tier, depending on potential magic items), they've broken even compared to gaining an extra attack with Haste. And Haste grants other bonuses on top of that which also assist a fighter in combat.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I like enlarge (or use of a potion of growth) for an occasional injection of flavour. Nothing better, if you have a rune knight, a high CR wildshaper or an ally already polymorphed into a giant ape, to THEN FURTHER BUFF THAT SIZE SOME MORE. :D
In other situations, especially where infiltration approaches might be useful, I'd go with haste.
Your hasted allies might also be better able to chase that white harengon down the rabbit hole.
True, but enlarge/reduce also has other benefits as well in different areas, as does haste. IMO it’s a matter of comparing everything, all pros and cons and picking the best all around fit for the party and the PC. Yes, hast will likely eek out (or blow away) enlarge for DPR, but it isn’t “haste/slow,” just haste. Haste can’t help the Halfling rogue fit through the Tiny hole into the next room to do rogue stuff, but Reduce can, and won’t negatively impact their DPR too significantly to worry about because -1d4 from Sneak Attack negligible. To only compare DPR boosts is myopic when there are so many factors that legitimately lend weight to the decision in various ways.
Getting some damage boost and a lot of exploration/utility options with E/R might be more appealing than a higher boost to DPR and other in-combat bonuses, but only the specific non-combat benefits of speed and a boost to Dex saves for a minute. Would haste help a PC run from semi-molten rock to semi-molten rock across a river of lava, dodging spurts of liquid death as bubbles pop? Sure. Could it help the Tabaxi Monk cross the distance even faster to save the Blacksmith’s daughter from certain death before the candle flame burns through her rope and drops her into the volcano? Sure. Can E/R do that? No. But E/R can shrink the BBE so you could punt kick them, or grow the Goliath to the size where they can literally pick the party up one-by-one and place them down waaayy the heck up there where they need to be. Or make the Large Rune Knight Huge and now just large enough to try to grapple the tarrasque. Pros and Cons.
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If it makes sense for your character and if you're an imaginative player, then Enlarge/Reduce is golden. It's a great problem-solving spell, allowing you to buff good guys, debuff bad guys (albeit not very reliably), jam up passageways, squeeze through smaller passageways, open doors without bribing the rogue, hide things, make things utterly annoying, play practical jokes, reach the top shelf, reach the bottom shelf without bending over, fit into all of your old clothes, commit sabotage, commit fraud, and all sorts of other stuff that calls a clever wizard to the school of transmutation. Beyond being very useful, I think it's a very entertaining spell.
But your character is trapped in Avernus, yes? It might make more sense for your character to glom onto any sort of combat magic that they can just to survive. I'd expect Haste to be better for that in most cases. An utterly uninspired spell choice but very powerful. Don't get me wrong, I don't fault any of our magic-users for taking such a boring spell--it's certainly saved the party more often than not.
I'm still fairly torn between the two. I like that E/R is just a second level spell making it more efficient in terms of sorcery points to twin, but I do think that haste is the better combat buff spell.
The biggest obstacle I have at the moment from being able to actually take E/R is the RP flavor of it. I'm playing my character as more of a psionic using his psychic and telekinetic powers than someone manipulating the weave. I can flavor Haste as reaching into the others minds and give a temporary boost to their adrenal glands, but I'm unsure how I could flavor E/R that way. The only thing I can think is that he telekinetically rearranges the molecules, but having that sort of ability seems way to powerful.
Any suggestions?
I love me some twin Haste...and with Mage Armor and Shield, my DM has yet to break my concentration :)
Worst case scenario, if you really get stuck, you could talk to your DM about something custom. Maybe you could find a "Wand of X", or you could modify a class feature to give you an extra spell slot, etc.
Show your DM that you are willing to invest in-game energy to achieve your goals, and they will likely meet you halfway.
Interdimensional multiversal nonsense: your power works by finding a universe which contains a copy of the target identical in every respect except for its size and swapping the two, and when the spell wears off, it repeats the trick of finding a suitable copy. This means the spell doesn't alter anyone's memories, but does leave your original team-mate and their multiversal clone stranded in some universe - every time the spell ends you end up with a second multiversal clone whose memories don't acknowledge themselves as such because the spell made sure the copy it found had the right memories. Just don't tell them and they should be able to avoid an existential crisis.
There it is. If you are only looking at things as a purely combat buff, then of the two, haste will almost always yield noticeably more favorable results. If, on the other hand, you’re looking for a solid combat boost with a broader array of other uses, then E/R will often be potentially useful in more situations.
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Haste is vastly superior in most situations. Enlarge/Reduce is a weak spell overall, while Twinned Haste is borderline overpowered. Just make sure you don't lose concentration!
I don't agree. Enlarge is a fantastic buff and preferable on a frontline tank who likes to use the shove or grapple action. Even more so if they have something like the Shield Master or Grappler feat. Its also much better for out of combat utility IMO but both are great!
Yea, enlarge can be useful…not sure if it’s worth twinning though. Twinning a chromatic orb is far more damage then enlarge. For battlefield control it has value but not as much as say Haste with the movement speed and +2 AC
IamSposta gave a great summary,
I don't see Enlarge/Reduce as a weak spell and if I wanted to make sure I don't lose concentration, I'd be quite happy (though perhaps in a more prolonged battle) for that enlarged party member to soak up the hits.
(It's also worth noting though that enlarge can be limiting if you get faced with narrow entranceways).
A front line with an enlarged barbarian and fighter and normal sided monk flitting about could be quite effective with your sorcerer rubbing their hands at the back as long as they had suitable spells to cast at distance.
Thanks for your input everyone. We hit 6th level and I went with haste. I'm still pretty undecided about which one I really prefer, but I couldn't really think of a decent psionic flavor for E/R.