I think your missing gate and elemental rifts. A red dragons regional effect rips open portals to the elemental plane of fire. Gate can open portals to literal hell and the abyss. Open rifts to the elemental plane of fire would be devastating we have issues with wild fires what if the fires were alive and smart.
I think your missing gate and elemental rifts. A red dragons regional effect rips open portals to the elemental plane of fire. Gate can open portals to literal hell and the abyss. Open rifts to the elemental plane of fire would be devastating we have issues with wild fires what if the fires were alive and smart.
Damn they nerfed regional effects hard as hell, now fire just burns slightly harder. But the issues with using Gate is that it’s a 100% MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) idea. The moment that portal opens the dragon is 100% willing to die to take out every human in a massive radius, you would need an extremely angry and suicidal greatwyrm for that.
A dragon dropping vrocks in a massive river or something would possibly cripple large parts of Europe from having edible produce due to their poison killing off the crops and livestock, the amount of dragons capable of and willing to use the gate spell for that purpose is probably less than the fingers on one hand, but is obscenely effective in the cases where it happens.
An ancient gold dragon has an average treasure hoard of 330,000 gold pieces. 50 gold coins weighs a pound. So, 6,600lbs of gold. At roughly 3350 dollars per troy ounce, this works out to very roughly 200 million dollars. That, plus a handful of powerful magic objects, and the ability to cast spells and transform into anyone they ever want to... and combined with their vast intellect, wisdom, and off the charts charisma... one. One dragon is all it would take.
He might already be here. He might already be working in the shadows, or even in the open, pushing the world towards Armageddon. How would we ever know? How would anyone even suspect it??
Anyone who claims we're invaded by a crazy powerful shape-changing dragon would be branded a lunatic.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
An ancient gold dragon has an average treasure hoard of 330,000 gold pieces. 50 gold coins weighs a pound. So, 6,600lbs of gold. At roughly 3350 dollars per troy ounce, this works out to very roughly 200 million dollars. That, plus a handful of powerful magic objects, and the ability to cast spells and transform into anyone they ever want to... and combined with their vast intellect, wisdom, and off the charts charisma... one. One dragon is all it would take.
He might already be here. He might already be working in the shadows, or even in the open, pushing the world towards Armageddon. How would we ever know? How would anyone even suspect it??
Anyone who claims we're invaded by a crazy powerful shape-changing dragon would be branded a lunatic.
Why would any of that matter?
A dragon in hiding would be found out regardless. Eventually. We can track everything. And then our gold dragon in human form get's hit by one of those supersonic blade gliders, and sishkebab'd before it even knows it's under attack.
If it did nothing but live off it's 200 million dollars - sure. It can do that. It can hide forever - if it never acts against us. But hiding is not winning.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
How would we ever know? How would anyone even suspect it??
Because there would be a moderately wealthy person with no records of where their wealth came from, and a pile of antique gold jewelery that doesn't originate from any known culture. BTW 200 million is a lot less than many real living human beings. So why would this gold dragon have more influence than the >3000 billionaires that already exist here?
Because there would be a moderately wealthy person with no records of where their wealth came from, and a pile of antique gold jewelery that doesn't originate from any known culture. BTW 200 million is a lot less than many real living human beings. So why would this gold dragon have more influence than the >3000 billionaires that already exist here?
This. Someone pops up with 3000 tons of gold and no credit history. That's 2500 Toyota Hiaces to move it. I know it can shape shift and all, but all those trucks can't.
Anyways. This is a fun discussion, but it is largely pointless =)
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Because there would be a moderately wealthy person with no records of where their wealth came from, and a pile of antique gold jewelery that doesn't originate from any known culture. BTW 200 million is a lot less than many real living human beings. So why would this gold dragon have more influence than the >3000 billionaires that already exist here?
This. Someone pops up with 3000 tons of gold and no credit history. That's 2500 Toyota Hiaces to move it. I know it can shape shift and all, but all those trucks can't.
I once calculated the dragons population of Toril (all types of true dragons, so gems, chromatic, metallic, supers):
- 3 Greatwyrms (CR 26+): Basically unique specimen that are more multiverse scaled than world scaled lol. I am probably overestimating their number.
- 60 ancients (CR 20 to 26): their really not many, in fact. We see them often cause DM love to use them as final boss, but they are really uncommon in fact.)
- 200 adults (CR 15 to 18)
- 500 youngs (CR 6 to 10)
-1500 wyrmlings (CR 1 to 5): the mortality rate of young dragons is horrible, specially for chromatics one who predate on each others despite being the most common dragons types.).
We will add to the dragons non true dragons, to give them an actual chance:
- About 50 turtle dragons. (CR 17)
- About 1000 wyverns (CR 6).
Meanwhile do you have any idea of what the humans will throw at them? That:
- Battle tanks. The USA have more than 4 thousands of them. And thats JUST the usa. A battle tank should be around cr 16, and probably have stats close to the servok war engines, but faster, and a larger array of weapons... And an higher ac in fact: https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/4485994-servok-war-engine
- JUST THE US, once more, have more than 13 thousands fighter jets. And those things are clearly CR 20+. And are so fast they will make solars looks like snails. And for a modern fighter jet, less than 1 thousand miles in air to air combat is considered CLOSE RANGE.
-For the base foot soldiers who got an actual training, they are at minimum CR 3, the same cr as a knights. And believe me, any modern soldier who got training with automatic rifle and kevlar armor would solo entire squads of knights.
So basically the war between modern humans and dragons will go this way: The dragons will never even see the fighter jets that they would all have been destroyed. Not even by nukes, no, no, just normal ballistic missiles. The end. Squads of foot soldiers would be more than enough to eleminate any survivors.
I once calculated the dragons population of Toril (all types of true dragons, so gems, chromatic, metallic, supers):
- 3 Greatwyrms (CR 26+): Basically unique specimen that are more multiverse scaled than world scaled lol. I am probably overestimating their number.
- 60 ancients (CR 20 to 26): their really not many, in fact. We see them often cause DM love to use them as final boss, but they are really uncommon in fact.)
- 200 adults (CR 15 to 18)
- 500 youngs (CR 6 to 10)
-1500 wyrmlings (CR 1 to 5): the mortality rate of young dragons is horrible, specially for chromatics one who predate on each others despite being the most common dragons types.).
We will add to the dragons non true dragons, to give them an actual chance:
- About 50 turtle dragons. (CR 17)
- About 1000 wyverns (CR 6).
Meanwhile do you have any idea of what the humans will throw at them? That:
- Battle tanks. The USA have more than 4 thousands of them. And thats JUST the usa. A battle tank should be around cr 16, and probably have stats close to the servok war engines, but faster, and a larger array of weapons... And an higher ac in fact: https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/4485994-servok-war-engine
- JUST THE US, once more, have more than 13 thousands fighter jets. And those things are clearly CR 20+. And are so fast they will make solars looks like snails. And for a modern fighter jet, less than 1 thousand miles in air to air combat is considered CLOSE RANGE.
-For the base foot soldiers who got an actual training, they are at minimum CR 3, the same cr as a knights. And believe me, any modern soldier who got training with automatic rifle and kevlar armor would solo entire squads of knights.
So basically the war between modern humans and dragons will go this way: The dragons will never even see the fighter jets that they would all have been destroyed. Not even by nukes, no, no, just normal ballistic missiles. The end. Squads of foot soldiers would be more than enough to eleminate any survivors.
1. I’m very interested in seeing where you got those numbers, seeing that wyverns are only around 1,000. That’s literally smaller then the African Lion's population by around 20 times, which is also smaller than the elephant population, seeing that Faerun is an entire continent and that most adventures don’t really say that wyverns are going extinct.
2. Why are true dragons in a higher population than wyverns, that makes zero sense considering it takes 100 years for them to grow into adults. Wyverns are both smaller and age faster, why aren’t their populations any higher?
3. Wow, you’re using the statblock of a 3rd party sourcebook, that’s kinda dubious in terms of accuracy. But you got a point that the US has a stupid amount of military vehicles.Aren’t fighter jets supposed to be fighter other jets, and isn’t it hard for them to hit slow moving targets, the massive speed difference and the constant minor movement forces them to be crack shots who have to aim damn low to hit dragons?
4. Okay they will not beat a group of knights, I’ve heard of tales of regular soldiers getting out of commission from a single bullet to the chest, and at best those deal 2d8 + dex. And you’re telling me that a normal soldier who doesn’t know how to parry and doesn’t have access to radiant energy is as dangerous as a Knight in head to head combat? Cause despite the name, the dnd Knight isn’t accurate to what real knights are, a Knight is more like a paladin NPC than royalty. But the knight is actually a somewhat decent (if not overpowered) point for how an extremely armoured soldier statblock.
5. You do know kevlar isn’t like a super metal right? It’s a substance that feels similar to string, it’s meant to stop bullets, not a brick from caving your head in, and seeing as a knight has a longsword, they could just hit you on the head instead. In a fight between a real US solider and knights if given a machine gun? Yea the soldier destroys all if given space, but D&D knights are nearly as durable as an Elephant, so I feel like they could actually last long enough to just shoot the solider with heavy crossbows.
6. Final point, yea I don’t agree, considering America has never really fought in their own homeland with modern technology.
I once calculated the dragons population of Toril (all types of true dragons, so gems, chromatic, metallic, supers):
- 3 Greatwyrms (CR 26+): Basically unique specimen that are more multiverse scaled than world scaled lol. I am probably overestimating their number.
- 60 ancients (CR 20 to 26): their really not many, in fact. We see them often cause DM love to use them as final boss, but they are really uncommon in fact.)
- 200 adults (CR 15 to 18)
- 500 youngs (CR 6 to 10)
-1500 wyrmlings (CR 1 to 5): the mortality rate of young dragons is horrible, specially for chromatics one who predate on each others despite being the most common dragons types.).
We will add to the dragons non true dragons, to give them an actual chance:
- About 50 turtle dragons. (CR 17)
- About 1000 wyverns (CR 6).
Meanwhile do you have any idea of what the humans will throw at them? That:
- Battle tanks. The USA have more than 4 thousands of them. And thats JUST the usa. A battle tank should be around cr 16, and probably have stats close to the servok war engines, but faster, and a larger array of weapons... And an higher ac in fact: https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/4485994-servok-war-engine
- JUST THE US, once more, have more than 13 thousands fighter jets. And those things are clearly CR 20+. And are so fast they will make solars looks like snails. And for a modern fighter jet, less than 1 thousand miles in air to air combat is considered CLOSE RANGE.
-For the base foot soldiers who got an actual training, they are at minimum CR 3, the same cr as a knights. And believe me, any modern soldier who got training with automatic rifle and kevlar armor would solo entire squads of knights.
So basically the war between modern humans and dragons will go this way: The dragons will never even see the fighter jets that they would all have been destroyed. Not even by nukes, no, no, just normal ballistic missiles. The end. Squads of foot soldiers would be more than enough to eleminate any survivors.
1. I’m very interested in seeing where you got those numbers, seeing that wyverns are only around 1,000. That’s literally smaller then the African Lion's population by around 20 times, which is also smaller than the elephant population, seeing that Faerun is an entire continent and that most adventures don’t really say that wyverns are going extinct.
2. Why are true dragons in a higher population than wyverns, that makes zero sense considering it takes 100 years for them to grow into adults. Wyverns are both smaller and age faster, why aren’t their populations any higher?
3. Wow, you’re using the statblock of a 3rd party sourcebook, that’s kinda dubious in terms of accuracy. But you got a point that the US has a stupid amount of military vehicles.Aren’t fighter jets supposed to be fighter other jets, and isn’t it hard for them to hit slow moving targets, the massive speed difference and the constant minor movement forces them to be crack shots who have to aim damn low to hit dragons?
Dogfighting really stopped being a thing that's actually done in air combat after the Vietnam War. Modern air combat is conducted mostly by air-to-air missiles, and even "short range" ones like the AIM-9 Sidewinder have a range that's measured in miles. Modern combat aircraft like the F-22 and F-35 still carry autocannons mostly out of design inertia.
6. Final point, yea I don’t agree, considering America has never really fought in their own homeland with modern technology.
And dragons have never fought against modern firepower. As I've said before, anything that dies to swords and bows dies far more easily to machine guns and guided missiles.
1. I’m very interested in seeing where you got those numbers, seeing that wyverns are only around 1,000. That’s literally smaller then the African Lion's population by around 20 times, which is also smaller than the elephant population, seeing that Faerun is an entire continent and that most adventures don’t really say that wyverns are going extinct.
2. Why are true dragons in a higher population than wyverns, that makes zero sense considering it takes 100 years for them to grow into adults. Wyverns are both smaller and age faster, why aren’t their populations any higher?
3. Wow, you’re using the statblock of a 3rd party sourcebook, that’s kinda dubious in terms of accuracy. But you got a point that the US has a stupid amount of military vehicles.Aren’t fighter jets supposed to be fighter other jets, and isn’t it hard for them to hit slow moving targets, the massive speed difference and the constant minor movement forces them to be crack shots who have to aim damn low to hit dragons?
4. Okay they will not beat a group of knights, I’ve heard of tales of regular soldiers getting out of commission from a single bullet to the chest, and at best those deal 2d8 + dex. And you’re telling me that a normal soldier who doesn’t know how to parry and doesn’t have access to radiant energy is as dangerous as a Knight in head to head combat? Cause despite the name, the dnd Knight isn’t accurate to what real knights are, a Knight is more like a paladin NPC than royalty. But the knight is actually a somewhat decent (if not overpowered) point for how an extremely armoured soldier statblock.
5. You do know kevlar isn’t like a super metal right? It’s a substance that feels similar to string, it’s meant to stop bullets, not a brick from caving your head in, and seeing as a knight has a longsword, they could just hit you on the head instead. In a fight between a real US solider and knights if given a machine gun? Yea the soldier destroys all if given space, but D&D knights are nearly as durable as an Elephant, so I feel like they could actually last long enough to just shoot the solider with heavy crossbows.
6. Final point, yea I don’t agree, considering America has never really fought in their own homeland with modern technology.
1. Why does it matter? It's all make believe - there are no dragons, and no real numbers for them, and for the purposes of this discussions, they could all be great wyrms and it wouldn't affect the outcome.
2. Good question. Because wyverns are pests? No, listen: Wyverns attack livestock, and are killable. Dragons maybe also eat a cow here and there, but they sleep for long times, and they are substantially less killable than wyverns. So wyvern habitats might well be constrained, and their numbers strictly controlled.
3. Nah. No, not really. Dragons would compare favourable to helicopters - and fighter jets can absolutely engage and down those. Dragons suffer the downside of not having any flares. In this context, it just isn't any sort of advantage to be a dragon.
4. This is trying to view the discussion in D&D terms - and I don't do that. I cannot accept trying to force full auto weapons or the like into D&D action economy and damage ranges. Not that anyone cares, mind, that's just me =)
5. Kevlar doesn't stop bullets. It stops fragmentation, from grenades and the like. Steel or ceramic inserts is what stops bullets. If you have a bit of luck. Also you really can't give class levels to knights and assume the soldier is just some guy. But that's back to 'we can't have this discussion and pretend D&D rules apply to it.' So yea =)
6. 6th Lyran said it best, here: If it bleeds and dies to swords and crossbows, it dies instantly to autocannon fire and supersonic target seeking missiles. It's .... just not a fair fight, in any way what so ever. Dragons have zero chance.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
1. Why does it matter? It's all make believe - there are no dragons, and no real numbers for them, and for the purposes of this discussions, they could all be great wyrms and it wouldn't affect the outcome.
2. Good question. Because wyverns are pests? No, listen: Wyverns attack livestock, and are killable. Dragons maybe also eat a cow here and there, but they sleep for long times, and they are substantially less killable than wyverns. So wyvern habitats might well be constrained, and their numbers strictly controlled.
3. Nah. No, not really. Dragons would compare favourable to helicopters - and fighter jets can absolutely engage and down those. Dragons suffer the downside of not having any flares. In this context, it just isn't any sort of advantage to be a dragon.
4. This is trying to view the discussion in D&D terms - and I don't do that. I cannot accept trying to force full auto weapons or the like into D&D action economy and damage ranges. Not that anyone cares, mind, that's just me =)
5. Kevlar doesn't stop bullets. It stops fragmentation, from grenades and the like. Steel or ceramic inserts is what stops bullets. If you have a bit of luck. Also you really can't give class levels to knights and assume the soldier is just some guy. But that's back to 'we can't have this discussion and pretend D&D rules apply to it.' So yea =)
6. 6th Lyran said it best, here: If it bleeds and dies to swords and crossbows, it dies instantly to autocannon fire and supersonic target seeking missiles. It's .... just not a fair fight, in any way what so ever. Dragons have zero chance.
1. So by your opinion, are 100 billion lions as hard to defeat as 10? Or are 10 city sized lions are as hard to beat as 10 normal ones?
2. Blue whales have a lower population than wolves, so that must mean that blue whales eat more livestock and are a bigger threat than wolves. You’re completely ignoring K and R selection, not to mention that most wyverns and dragons live on large mountains or cliff sides. Try killing the ant colonies of an entire forest, now try killing the blue whales in a sea, while you kill hordes of ants in a forest, their deaths don’t matter compared to how fast they reproduce. The time and effort needed to kill a blue whale is much larger, taking weeks to find one without people interfering, yet it puts a much larger dent as whales take years to gestate and 5 to 15 for them to become adults. If wyverns were able to be fully controlled by their world's population, they would become extinct like grey wolves in America.
3. It’s not as one sided as you would expect, sure if the place was flat with no cover at all, fighter jet wins 9/10, but unless you live in Nevada, there’s always gonna be some kind of hill, forest or terrain for a helicopter to hide in, you cant hit something you don’t have direct line of sight with. If the jet zooms over where the helicopter was, their only choice are to drop bombs or missiles, where the helicopter could take a few shots and missiles of their own against it.
4. But you do accept that magical dragons from a board game created by a Jehova's witness in 1974 that was originally a war game, with the mechanics and lore made up by a bunch of people in a basement, are transported to Earth in order to fight the (totally united) modern military of Earth with a population total lower than an endangered species. Because that already makes zero sense.
4. The knights don’t have class levels, maybe if you actually looked at the stat blocks, you would notice that the Knight has radiant damage and are similar to paladins by that. I am in no way saying that they have class levels, you should read twice before posting. I said that a D&D Knight is not comparable to a real world one, see the divine energy in all their attacks and that it would not be a wipe for either side.
1. So by your opinion, are 100 billion lions as hard to defeat as 10? Or are 10 city sized lions are as hard to beat as 10 normal ones?
2. Blue whales have a lower population than wolves, so that must mean that blue whales eat more livestock and are a bigger threat than wolves. You’re completely ignoring K and R selection, not to mention that most wyverns and dragons live on large mountains or cliff sides. Try killing the ant colonies of an entire forest, now try killing the blue whales in a sea, while you kill hordes of ants in a forest, their deaths don’t matter compared to how fast they reproduce. The time and effort needed to kill a blue whale is much larger, taking weeks to find one without people interfering, yet it puts a much larger dent as whales take years to gestate and 5 to 15 for them to become adults. If wyverns were able to be fully controlled by their world's population, they would become extinct like grey wolves in America.
3. It’s not as one sided as you would expect, sure if the place was flat with no cover at all, fighter jet wins 9/10, but unless you live in Nevada, there’s always gonna be some kind of hill, forest or terrain for a helicopter to hide in, you cant hit something you don’t have direct line of sight with. If the jet zooms over where the helicopter was, their only choice are to drop bombs or missiles, where the helicopter could take a few shots and missiles of their own against it.
4. But you do accept that magical dragons from a board game created by a Jehova's witness in 1974 that was originally a war game, with the mechanics and lore made up by a bunch of people in a basement, are transported to Earth in order to fight the (totally united) modern military of Earth with a population total lower than an endangered species. Because that already makes zero sense.
4. The knights don’t have class levels, maybe if you actually looked at the stat blocks, you would notice that the Knight has radiant damage and are similar to paladins by that. I am in no way saying that they have class levels, you should read twice before posting. I said that a D&D Knight is not comparable to a real world one, see the divine energy in all their attacks and that it would not be a wipe for either side.
1. You've lost me there. But for what it's worth, yes. Yes, billions of imaginary lions would stand as little chance against the combined military might of the world as just 10, be they city sized or not. I fail to see your point, but you can move the slider as much as you like: Lions don't win. The end.
2. Again, I simply don't get where you're going with this. But, let me assure you, if we collectively decided that ants have to go - they'd go. In SHORT order. There'd be a price to pay, sure, that much poison globally wouldn't be ideal. But ... I don't think we're having the same discussion here. I gave you a potential reason why wyverns might be rare (humans are motivated to make sure of it), and ... your response just doesn't seem to be a part of the same conversation, at all. Feel free to correct me, but I am NOT following your train of thought here.
3. Utterly wrong. Target data can come from anywhere, the missile can be launched from anywhere (within range, of course). Missiles can absolutely fly around obstacles. Choppers are not in the game, anymore than dragons are. They just lose, no contest.
4. No I don't But for the purposes of this discussion, I'm willing to paint in fairly great detail a picture of all the ways dragons are not equipped to deal with a modern battlefield.
5. I have no interest in stat blocks. I'm sorry if I somehow gave that impression. This is my statement: We are not discussing this in terms of D&D - but in the real world. I accept no aspect of D&D as relevant to this discussion. Not hit points, nor damage ranges, nor CR, nor armor class, nor action economy - nor stat blocks. It's none of it relevant in any way. In the real world, getting hit gets you killed, with very few real caveats. And that's fairly equally distributed among dragons and men. You get hit - you die. Sure, a dragon might absorb a hit from a handgun - possibly. But we're not shooting these dragons with handguns.
Of course, it's entirely possible and perfectly acceptable to have this discussion in D&D terms - pitting 1hd soldiers with ac12 and 1d8 assault rifles against dragons. You can certainly have that discussion. Only not with me. I refuse.
Why have it at all then? Well, it's a fun thought experiment - but it does fall pretty badly in favor of modern weapons. We also had a little round where the dragons didn't fight (thus obviously losing the fight, but never mind) and infiltrated instead. That changes parameters considerably, but in my estimation still turns into a very unpleasant prospect for the dragons. A sort of reverse body snatchers scenario. Not that anyone is snatching the dragon's bodies, but in that they are totally isolated in an alien world where everyone is an enemy out to kill them. Get found, get dead.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
1. So by your opinion, are 100 billion lions as hard to defeat as 10? Or are 10 city sized lions are as hard to beat as 10 normal ones?
2. Blue whales have a lower population than wolves, so that must mean that blue whales eat more livestock and are a bigger threat than wolves. You’re completely ignoring K and R selection, not to mention that most wyverns and dragons live on large mountains or cliff sides. Try killing the ant colonies of an entire forest, now try killing the blue whales in a sea, while you kill hordes of ants in a forest, their deaths don’t matter compared to how fast they reproduce. The time and effort needed to kill a blue whale is much larger, taking weeks to find one without people interfering, yet it puts a much larger dent as whales take years to gestate and 5 to 15 for them to become adults. If wyverns were able to be fully controlled by their world's population, they would become extinct like grey wolves in America.
3. It’s not as one sided as you would expect, sure if the place was flat with no cover at all, fighter jet wins 9/10, but unless you live in Nevada, there’s always gonna be some kind of hill, forest or terrain for a helicopter to hide in, you cant hit something you don’t have direct line of sight with. If the jet zooms over where the helicopter was, their only choice are to drop bombs or missiles, where the helicopter could take a few shots and missiles of their own against it.
4. But you do accept that magical dragons from a board game created by a Jehova's witness in 1974 that was originally a war game, with the mechanics and lore made up by a bunch of people in a basement, are transported to Earth in order to fight the (totally united) modern military of Earth with a population total lower than an endangered species. Because that already makes zero sense.
4. The knights don’t have class levels, maybe if you actually looked at the stat blocks, you would notice that the Knight has radiant damage and are similar to paladins by that. I am in no way saying that they have class levels, you should read twice before posting. I said that a D&D Knight is not comparable to a real world one, see the divine energy in all their attacks and that it would not be a wipe for either side.
1. when in comes to modern weapons yes, 100 million lions are as easy to kill as 10, because all you need is one dude with a gun in a helicopter.
2. No creature bigger than a dog is r selected. It's simple physics, bigger == more material required to make it == more time required for reproduction.
3. You absolutely can destroy things you don't have line of sight on, see modern "over the horizon" radar systems that can literally track targets beyond the curvature of the earth. Cover doesn't matter to a whole host of modern sensors, but as we've gone over again and again, a hiding dragon is not "winning" they are sitting ducks until one random hiker tweets about them and a military squad goes out and exterminates them. Wolves are great a hiding but they were hunted to extinction in many places decades ago, simply for being slightly annoying to farmers.
4. ?????
5. What does that matter? Armour and swords have existed as a technology for centuries and the knowledge of how to make them still exists, if a soldier with a sword in a suit of armour was effective against modern infantry weapons, then modern armies would still use it. They don't because it isn't. Modern warfare easily trounces highly-trained soldiers in armour, and highly-trained soliders in armour can beat a dragon, ergo modern warfare easily trounces dragons.
I think your missing gate and elemental rifts. A red dragons regional effect rips open portals to the elemental plane of fire. Gate can open portals to literal hell and the abyss. Open rifts to the elemental plane of fire would be devastating we have issues with wild fires what if the fires were alive and smart.
Damn they nerfed regional effects hard as hell, now fire just burns slightly harder. But the issues with using Gate is that it’s a 100% MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) idea. The moment that portal opens the dragon is 100% willing to die to take out every human in a massive radius, you would need an extremely angry and suicidal greatwyrm for that.
A dragon dropping vrocks in a massive river or something would possibly cripple large parts of Europe from having edible produce due to their poison killing off the crops and livestock, the amount of dragons capable of and willing to use the gate spell for that purpose is probably less than the fingers on one hand, but is obscenely effective in the cases where it happens.
An ancient gold dragon has an average treasure hoard of 330,000 gold pieces. 50 gold coins weighs a pound. So, 6,600lbs of gold. At roughly 3350 dollars per troy ounce, this works out to very roughly 200 million dollars. That, plus a handful of powerful magic objects, and the ability to cast spells and transform into anyone they ever want to... and combined with their vast intellect, wisdom, and off the charts charisma... one. One dragon is all it would take.
He might already be here. He might already be working in the shadows, or even in the open, pushing the world towards Armageddon. How would we ever know? How would anyone even suspect it??
Anyone who claims we're invaded by a crazy powerful shape-changing dragon would be branded a lunatic.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Why would any of that matter?
A dragon in hiding would be found out regardless. Eventually. We can track everything. And then our gold dragon in human form get's hit by one of those supersonic blade gliders, and sishkebab'd before it even knows it's under attack.
If it did nothing but live off it's 200 million dollars - sure. It can do that. It can hide forever - if it never acts against us. But hiding is not winning.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Because there would be a moderately wealthy person with no records of where their wealth came from, and a pile of antique gold jewelery that doesn't originate from any known culture. BTW 200 million is a lot less than many real living human beings. So why would this gold dragon have more influence than the >3000 billionaires that already exist here?
This. Someone pops up with 3000 tons of gold and no credit history. That's 2500 Toyota Hiaces to move it. I know it can shape shift and all, but all those trucks can't.
Anyways. This is a fun discussion, but it is largely pointless =)
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
No dragon escapes the might of the IRS
I once calculated the dragons population of Toril (all types of true dragons, so gems, chromatic, metallic, supers):
- 3 Greatwyrms (CR 26+): Basically unique specimen that are more multiverse scaled than world scaled lol. I am probably overestimating their number.
- 60 ancients (CR 20 to 26): their really not many, in fact. We see them often cause DM love to use them as final boss, but they are really uncommon in fact.)
- 200 adults (CR 15 to 18)
- 500 youngs (CR 6 to 10)
-1500 wyrmlings (CR 1 to 5): the mortality rate of young dragons is horrible, specially for chromatics one who predate on each others despite being the most common dragons types.).
We will add to the dragons non true dragons, to give them an actual chance:
- About 50 turtle dragons. (CR 17)
- About 1000 wyverns (CR 6).
Meanwhile do you have any idea of what the humans will throw at them? That:
- Battle tanks. The USA have more than 4 thousands of them. And thats JUST the usa. A battle tank should be around cr 16, and probably have stats close to the servok war engines, but faster, and a larger array of weapons... And an higher ac in fact: https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/4485994-servok-war-engine
- JUST THE US, once more, have more than 13 thousands fighter jets. And those things are clearly CR 20+. And are so fast they will make solars looks like snails. And for a modern fighter jet, less than 1 thousand miles in air to air combat is considered CLOSE RANGE.
-For the base foot soldiers who got an actual training, they are at minimum CR 3, the same cr as a knights. And believe me, any modern soldier who got training with automatic rifle and kevlar armor would solo entire squads of knights.
So basically the war between modern humans and dragons will go this way: The dragons will never even see the fighter jets that they would all have been destroyed. Not even by nukes, no, no, just normal ballistic missiles. The end. Squads of foot soldiers would be more than enough to eleminate any survivors.
Airships domination!
1. I’m very interested in seeing where you got those numbers, seeing that wyverns are only around 1,000. That’s literally smaller then the African Lion's population by around 20 times, which is also smaller than the elephant population, seeing that Faerun is an entire continent and that most adventures don’t really say that wyverns are going extinct.
2. Why are true dragons in a higher population than wyverns, that makes zero sense considering it takes 100 years for them to grow into adults. Wyverns are both smaller and age faster, why aren’t their populations any higher?
3. Wow, you’re using the statblock of a 3rd party sourcebook, that’s kinda dubious in terms of accuracy. But you got a point that the US has a stupid amount of military vehicles.Aren’t fighter jets supposed to be fighter other jets, and isn’t it hard for them to hit slow moving targets, the massive speed difference and the constant minor movement forces them to be crack shots who have to aim damn low to hit dragons?
4. Okay they will not beat a group of knights, I’ve heard of tales of regular soldiers getting out of commission from a single bullet to the chest, and at best those deal 2d8 + dex. And you’re telling me that a normal soldier who doesn’t know how to parry and doesn’t have access to radiant energy is as dangerous as a Knight in head to head combat? Cause despite the name, the dnd Knight isn’t accurate to what real knights are, a Knight is more like a paladin NPC than royalty. But the knight is actually a somewhat decent (if not overpowered) point for how an extremely armoured soldier statblock.
5. You do know kevlar isn’t like a super metal right? It’s a substance that feels similar to string, it’s meant to stop bullets, not a brick from caving your head in, and seeing as a knight has a longsword, they could just hit you on the head instead. In a fight between a real US solider and knights if given a machine gun? Yea the soldier destroys all if given space, but D&D knights are nearly as durable as an Elephant, so I feel like they could actually last long enough to just shoot the solider with heavy crossbows.
6. Final point, yea I don’t agree, considering America has never really fought in their own homeland with modern technology.
Dogfighting really stopped being a thing that's actually done in air combat after the Vietnam War. Modern air combat is conducted mostly by air-to-air missiles, and even "short range" ones like the AIM-9 Sidewinder have a range that's measured in miles. Modern combat aircraft like the F-22 and F-35 still carry autocannons mostly out of design inertia.
And dragons have never fought against modern firepower. As I've said before, anything that dies to swords and bows dies far more easily to machine guns and guided missiles.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
1. Why does it matter? It's all make believe - there are no dragons, and no real numbers for them, and for the purposes of this discussions, they could all be great wyrms and it wouldn't affect the outcome.
2. Good question. Because wyverns are pests? No, listen: Wyverns attack livestock, and are killable. Dragons maybe also eat a cow here and there, but they sleep for long times, and they are substantially less killable than wyverns. So wyvern habitats might well be constrained, and their numbers strictly controlled.
3. Nah. No, not really. Dragons would compare favourable to helicopters - and fighter jets can absolutely engage and down those. Dragons suffer the downside of not having any flares. In this context, it just isn't any sort of advantage to be a dragon.
4. This is trying to view the discussion in D&D terms - and I don't do that. I cannot accept trying to force full auto weapons or the like into D&D action economy and damage ranges. Not that anyone cares, mind, that's just me =)
5. Kevlar doesn't stop bullets. It stops fragmentation, from grenades and the like. Steel or ceramic inserts is what stops bullets. If you have a bit of luck. Also you really can't give class levels to knights and assume the soldier is just some guy. But that's back to 'we can't have this discussion and pretend D&D rules apply to it.' So yea =)
6. 6th Lyran said it best, here: If it bleeds and dies to swords and crossbows, it dies instantly to autocannon fire and supersonic target seeking missiles. It's .... just not a fair fight, in any way what so ever. Dragons have zero chance.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
1. So by your opinion, are 100 billion lions as hard to defeat as 10? Or are 10 city sized lions are as hard to beat as 10 normal ones?
2. Blue whales have a lower population than wolves, so that must mean that blue whales eat more livestock and are a bigger threat than wolves. You’re completely ignoring K and R selection, not to mention that most wyverns and dragons live on large mountains or cliff sides. Try killing the ant colonies of an entire forest, now try killing the blue whales in a sea, while you kill hordes of ants in a forest, their deaths don’t matter compared to how fast they reproduce. The time and effort needed to kill a blue whale is much larger, taking weeks to find one without people interfering, yet it puts a much larger dent as whales take years to gestate and 5 to 15 for them to become adults. If wyverns were able to be fully controlled by their world's population, they would become extinct like grey wolves in America.
3. It’s not as one sided as you would expect, sure if the place was flat with no cover at all, fighter jet wins 9/10, but unless you live in Nevada, there’s always gonna be some kind of hill, forest or terrain for a helicopter to hide in, you cant hit something you don’t have direct line of sight with. If the jet zooms over where the helicopter was, their only choice are to drop bombs or missiles, where the helicopter could take a few shots and missiles of their own against it.
4. But you do accept that magical dragons from a board game created by a Jehova's witness in 1974 that was originally a war game, with the mechanics and lore made up by a bunch of people in a basement, are transported to Earth in order to fight the (totally united) modern military of Earth with a population total lower than an endangered species. Because that already makes zero sense.
4. The knights don’t have class levels, maybe if you actually looked at the stat blocks, you would notice that the Knight has radiant damage and are similar to paladins by that. I am in no way saying that they have class levels, you should read twice before posting. I said that a D&D Knight is not comparable to a real world one, see the divine energy in all their attacks and that it would not be a wipe for either side.
1. You've lost me there. But for what it's worth, yes. Yes, billions of imaginary lions would stand as little chance against the combined military might of the world as just 10, be they city sized or not. I fail to see your point, but you can move the slider as much as you like: Lions don't win. The end.
2. Again, I simply don't get where you're going with this. But, let me assure you, if we collectively decided that ants have to go - they'd go. In SHORT order. There'd be a price to pay, sure, that much poison globally wouldn't be ideal. But ... I don't think we're having the same discussion here. I gave you a potential reason why wyverns might be rare (humans are motivated to make sure of it), and ... your response just doesn't seem to be a part of the same conversation, at all. Feel free to correct me, but I am NOT following your train of thought here.
3. Utterly wrong. Target data can come from anywhere, the missile can be launched from anywhere (within range, of course). Missiles can absolutely fly around obstacles. Choppers are not in the game, anymore than dragons are. They just lose, no contest.
4. No I don't But for the purposes of this discussion, I'm willing to paint in fairly great detail a picture of all the ways dragons are not equipped to deal with a modern battlefield.
5. I have no interest in stat blocks. I'm sorry if I somehow gave that impression. This is my statement: We are not discussing this in terms of D&D - but in the real world. I accept no aspect of D&D as relevant to this discussion. Not hit points, nor damage ranges, nor CR, nor armor class, nor action economy - nor stat blocks. It's none of it relevant in any way. In the real world, getting hit gets you killed, with very few real caveats. And that's fairly equally distributed among dragons and men. You get hit - you die. Sure, a dragon might absorb a hit from a handgun - possibly. But we're not shooting these dragons with handguns.
Of course, it's entirely possible and perfectly acceptable to have this discussion in D&D terms - pitting 1hd soldiers with ac12 and 1d8 assault rifles against dragons. You can certainly have that discussion. Only not with me. I refuse.
Why have it at all then? Well, it's a fun thought experiment - but it does fall pretty badly in favor of modern weapons. We also had a little round where the dragons didn't fight (thus obviously losing the fight, but never mind) and infiltrated instead. That changes parameters considerably, but in my estimation still turns into a very unpleasant prospect for the dragons. A sort of reverse body snatchers scenario. Not that anyone is snatching the dragon's bodies, but in that they are totally isolated in an alien world where everyone is an enemy out to kill them. Get found, get dead.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
1. when in comes to modern weapons yes, 100 million lions are as easy to kill as 10, because all you need is one dude with a gun in a helicopter.
2. No creature bigger than a dog is r selected. It's simple physics, bigger == more material required to make it == more time required for reproduction.
3. You absolutely can destroy things you don't have line of sight on, see modern "over the horizon" radar systems that can literally track targets beyond the curvature of the earth. Cover doesn't matter to a whole host of modern sensors, but as we've gone over again and again, a hiding dragon is not "winning" they are sitting ducks until one random hiker tweets about them and a military squad goes out and exterminates them. Wolves are great a hiding but they were hunted to extinction in many places decades ago, simply for being slightly annoying to farmers.
4. ?????
5. What does that matter? Armour and swords have existed as a technology for centuries and the knowledge of how to make them still exists, if a soldier with a sword in a suit of armour was effective against modern infantry weapons, then modern armies would still use it. They don't because it isn't. Modern warfare easily trounces highly-trained soldiers in armour, and highly-trained soliders in armour can beat a dragon, ergo modern warfare easily trounces dragons.