Using your familiar to get you Advantage in combat is completely legit, it's just that the familiar is somewhat fragile. As an Arcane Trickster, though, you have lots of options to get Advantage. People have already mentioned a few, but I would like to point out Steady Aim, which is an optional rule from Tasha's Cauldron of Everything, as long as you don't move for the entire turn you can take a Bonus Action to give one of your attacks Advantage.
Owl has a 60 foot fly speed and does not provoke opportunity attacks. But using it as an endless supply of help actions is a well known exploit, and you should really have a conversation with your DM before you decide to use it that way. It's only got 11 AC and 1 hit point, so it would easily be dispatched by an archer or some other ranged attack. But then if you're in a dungeon or something it can keep flying in and out of the room.
Still, I just wouldn't put the DM in a position to play that game.
It's subjective, but I think it's at least a borderline exploit. That familiars can die keeps it from being solidly one :)
But on the topic, Elvin Accuracy on a rogue is definitely brutal, especially now that Steady Aim is a thing. No familiar is really necessary.
I think I dislike "steady aim" more than familiar shenanigans. at least familars take tactics and planning and have actual situational weaknesses. I find with steady aim many rogues get lazy with their sneak attack and turns in general.
It's subjective, but I think it's at least a borderline exploit. That familiars can die keeps it from being solidly one :)
But on the topic, Elvin Accuracy on a rogue is definitely brutal, especially now that Steady Aim is a thing. No familiar is really necessary.
I think I dislike "steady aim" more than familiar shenanigans. at least familars take tactics and planning and have actual situational weaknesses. I find with steady aim many rogues get lazy with their sneak attack and turns in general.
Yeah, I think Steady Aim is a mistake.
But either way, it's basically like, add it if you think Rogues need a buff. I don't, and if I did, I don't think this would be the kind of buff it needs, but anyway, you are explicitly and repeatedly encouraged by the rules to only use it if you want to. Idk. I guess it's okay.
It's subjective, but I think it's at least a borderline exploit. That familiars can die keeps it from being solidly one :)
But on the topic, Elvin Accuracy on a rogue is definitely brutal, especially now that Steady Aim is a thing. No familiar is really necessary.
I think I dislike "steady aim" more than familiar shenanigans. at least familars take tactics and planning and have actual situational weaknesses. I find with steady aim many rogues get lazy with their sneak attack and turns in general.
I don't agree. The alternative is to bonus action hide. While hidden they don't get attacked and they don't have to give up their movement for two turns.
Like so many mechanics, it's dependent on how your encounters are designed. If you don't specifically add reasons to keep a fight dynamic, you have encounters where the two sides walk up to each other and stand there attacking until one side wins. In that case, sure, a rogue can just post up in one spot and attack repeatedly. But if there are skirmishers that can get in the rogue's face or environmental hazards that keep you moving or traps or any number of things to incentivize movement, Steady Aim comes at a higher cost. Ideally you mix it up enough that sometimes it's useful and sometimes it's not.
As for the OP, in my games familiars that intervene in combat have a very high likelihood of dying. As does a rat running through a castle or a hawk standing lookout in a tree for hours. Familiars are intentionally fragile so that you can send a stiff breeze their way and take them out when you feel they're exceeding the utility of a 1st level ritual spell.
Like so many mechanics, it's dependent on how your encounters are designed. If you don't specifically add reasons to keep a fight dynamic, you have encounters where the two sides walk up to each other and stand there attacking until one side wins. In that case, sure, a rogue can just post up in one spot and attack repeatedly. But if there are skirmishers that can get in the rogue's face or environmental hazards that keep you moving or traps or any number of things to incentivize movement, Steady Aim comes at a higher cost. Ideally you mix it up enough that sometimes it's useful and sometimes it's not.
As for the OP, in my games familiars that intervene in combat have a very high likelihood of dying. As does a rat running through a castle or a hawk standing lookout in a tree for hours. Familiars are intentionally fragile so that you can send a stiff breeze their way and take them out when you feel they're exceeding the utility of a 1st level ritual spell.
I agree that dynamic fights makes the Steady Aim feature manageable. And it depends on the opponents. If they’re low intelligence beasts, they may not use tactics to challenge the rogue. But smarter enemies might. And I think it’s really up to the DM to balance out so that features like Steady Aim aren’t a rinse and repeat option. But also making combats so that players don’t get to use their features at all, isn’t optimal either. Kind of like clerics with destroy undead. Throw them a bone and let them destroy a few low CR undead once in awhile, even if they are well below the party’s level. Let them use their features not abuse them.
And as for the familiar comment, I don’t think most enemies would try to take out an owl familiar if it flies by once or twice, especially when the have bigger threats (the PC’s) to contend with. But after about three times it might become enough of an annoyance to try to take it out. Unless the party’s Barbarian is in their face trying to cut them in half, then the familiar would be fairly safe. I think it’s all situationally dependent on how long a familiar survives.
It's subjective, but I think it's at least a borderline exploit. That familiars can die keeps it from being solidly one :)
But on the topic, Elvin Accuracy on a rogue is definitely brutal, especially now that Steady Aim is a thing. No familiar is really necessary.
Steady aim is very OP, and my DM and many more wouldn't allow it. I did ask if I could use it when I heard about it, but it's just too powerful so I just use this method which is arguably more op, as you save the bonus action and can move away from enemies.
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Hollow unbreakable arrows are the most OP common magic item, and my current method of coming up with insane combat shenanigans.
if you make a steel pipe with one end closed and a nozzle on the other, you can enlarge it, fill with any liquid, and then drop concentration, creating a high pressure squirt gun. (or a pipe bomb, depending if it holds)
There is no such thing as triple advantage. Advantage doesn’t stack. No matter how many sources provide you with advantage, you only roll two dice. What’s more. No matter how many sources you have, they can all be canceled by a single disadvantage. 15 kinds of advantage and one disadvantage equals a straight roll.
Technically this would be double advantage.
"Whenever you have advantage on an attack roll using Dexterity, Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma, you can reroll one of the dice once."
This is mechanically and statistically indistinguishable from just rolling 3 dice.
Yea, I said "triple advantage" because you are rolling 3 dice, hence the "triple" idc, call it whatever you want. I just like that name for it.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Hollow unbreakable arrows are the most OP common magic item, and my current method of coming up with insane combat shenanigans.
if you make a steel pipe with one end closed and a nozzle on the other, you can enlarge it, fill with any liquid, and then drop concentration, creating a high pressure squirt gun. (or a pipe bomb, depending if it holds)
The familiar must be visible to provide a distraction. If it is invisible, the enemy creature will be unable to see it and cannot be distracted by it. If the creature does something that physically impacts the other creature, basic invisibility ends since that would be considered an attack.
The familiar can be attacked whether it is visible or invisible unless it has taken the Hide action. Taking the Help action ends its hidden status, whether it is visible or invisible.
Essentially the way for the DM to prevent this is to just kill the familiar off and it's done. It's very easy to kill familiars.
The familiar must be visible to provide a distraction. If it is invisible, the enemy creature will be unable to see it and cannot be distracted by it.
I've been distracted by things I can't see before. Haven't you? This is a house rule of yours, and I think a rather silly one.
If the creature does something that physically impacts the other creature, basic invisibility ends since that would be considered an attack.
Impacts, sure. A hammer impacts. Influences, though? Is a cat brushing against your leg an attack? Is a bird screeching near your head an attack? All we're looking for is a believable momentary distraction. It's not like it has to hurt.
Taking the Help action ends its hidden status, whether it is visible or invisible.
Source? Or is this just based on your assertion that Help means Attack?
It's subjective, but I think it's at least a borderline exploit. That familiars can die keeps it from being solidly one :)
But on the topic, Elvin Accuracy on a rogue is definitely brutal, especially now that Steady Aim is a thing. No familiar is really necessary.
Steady aim is very OP, and my DM and many more wouldn't allow it. I did ask if I could use it when I heard about it, but it's just too powerful so I just use this method which is arguably more op, as you save the bonus action and can move away from enemies.
The Hide action (which is also a bonus action) makes it so attacks against you are with disadvantage, and you still have all your movement.
Steady aim allows enemies to see you and attack you at will, and to use it you give up your movement for two turns.
There is no such thing as triple advantage. Advantage doesn’t stack. No matter how many sources provide you with advantage, you only roll two dice. What’s more. No matter how many sources you have, they can all be canceled by a single disadvantage. 15 kinds of advantage and one disadvantage equals a straight roll.
Technically this would be double advantage.
"Whenever you have advantage on an attack roll using Dexterity, Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma, you can reroll one of the dice once."
This is mechanically and statistically indistinguishable from just rolling 3 dice.
Yea, I said "triple advantage" because you are rolling 3 dice, hence the "triple" idc, call it whatever you want. I just like that name for it.
But my point was...with Elvin Accuracy you arerolling 3 dice and picking the highest. So there is such thing.
There is no such thing as triple advantage. Advantage doesn’t stack. No matter how many sources provide you with advantage, you only roll two dice. What’s more. No matter how many sources you have, they can all be canceled by a single disadvantage. 15 kinds of advantage and one disadvantage equals a straight roll.
Actually in this case it is triple advantage (3 dice rolled hence the triple) because elven accuracy lets you roll another d20 if you have advantage, replacing the lower number, that means mechanically it is triple advantage
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Hollow unbreakable arrows are the most OP common magic item, and my current method of coming up with insane combat shenanigans.
if you make a steel pipe with one end closed and a nozzle on the other, you can enlarge it, fill with any liquid, and then drop concentration, creating a high pressure squirt gun. (or a pipe bomb, depending if it holds)
This reminds me of the new Ranger changes. Doesn’t your flying beast option also get the flyby ability? They also get an ability to share buff spells with their companion animal. Potential for some decent buffs.
It's subjective, but I think it's at least a borderline exploit. That familiars can die keeps it from being solidly one :)
But on the topic, Elvin Accuracy on a rogue is definitely brutal, especially now that Steady Aim is a thing. No familiar is really necessary.
Steady aim is very OP, and my DM and many more wouldn't allow it. I did ask if I could use it when I heard about it, but it's just too powerful so I just use this method which is arguably more op, as you save the bonus action and can move away from enemies.
The Hide action (which is also a bonus action) makes it so attacks against you are with disadvantage, and you still have all your movement.
Steady aim allows enemies to see you and attack you at will, and to use it you give up your movement for two turns.
Steady Aim
3rd-level rogue feature
As a bonus action, you give yourself advantage on your next attack roll on the current turn. You can use this bonus action only if you haven’t moved during this turn, and after you use the bonus action, your speed is 0 until the end of the current turn.
It's just one turn of movement lost, not two. Making the rogue reposition to see a target periodically prevents this from being abused and can be accomplished by a number of methods. Proning a rogue could also work, or any other method of giving the rogue disadvantage.
Back on topic, many of the same tactics can be used to counter the familiar, though LoS methods are less effective when Cunning Action can be used to dash.
The introduction of Steady Aim is just the designers way of emphasizing that rogues are INTENDED to be able to use sneak attack on most if not all turns in order to keep their damage comparable to other martial classes. It is in no way overpowered. A rogue without sneak attack has one attack for typically d8+stat which is less than pretty much any other class. The restriction of not moving at all and requiring the use of the bonus action is a significant restriction for any rogue. They can't use cunning action or two weapon fighting. They can't retreat or otherwise maneuver - they either choose to stay in place and attack with advantage (possibly enabling sneak attack) or they can reposition.
To the OP, a familiar using the help action to assist a rogue is a very common strategy. It is not an exploit. The most common choice of familiar for this is the owl since it has the flyby feature that will not provoke opportunity attack while they fly adjacent to a target and take the help action.
Good ways for a rogue to obtain advantage on their attack are:
- bonus action hide behind appropriate cover and if successful then attack with advantage (this typically only works for ranged attacks)
- familiar help action
- steady aim
- spells like faerie fire - available by multiclassing
- darkness+devils sight with 3 levels of warlock multiclass - devils sight is also good for a rogue since it is one of the few ways to avoid disadvantage on perception checks in darkness (the other approach being the skulker feat)
However, I've found that if a character wants to regularly attack with advantage (possibly because they took the elven accuracy feat) then the character needs to be built with the ability to obtain advantage themselves - you usually can't rely on others.
Another way the familiar could help you get advantage is to use the flanking rules.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Hollow unbreakable arrows are the most OP common magic item, and my current method of coming up with insane combat shenanigans.
if you make a steel pipe with one end closed and a nozzle on the other, you can enlarge it, fill with any liquid, and then drop concentration, creating a high pressure squirt gun. (or a pipe bomb, depending if it holds)
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Owl has a 60 foot fly speed and does not provoke opportunity attacks. But using it as an endless supply of help actions is a well known exploit, and you should really have a conversation with your DM before you decide to use it that way. It's only got 11 AC and 1 hit point, so it would easily be dispatched by an archer or some other ranged attack. But then if you're in a dungeon or something it can keep flying in and out of the room.
Still, I just wouldn't put the DM in a position to play that game.
I'm not sure I'd consider it an exploit.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
It's subjective, but I think it's at least a borderline exploit. That familiars can die keeps it from being solidly one :)
But on the topic, Elvin Accuracy on a rogue is definitely brutal, especially now that Steady Aim is a thing. No familiar is really necessary.
I think I dislike "steady aim" more than familiar shenanigans. at least familars take tactics and planning and have actual situational weaknesses. I find with steady aim many rogues get lazy with their sneak attack and turns in general.
Yeah, I think Steady Aim is a mistake.
But either way, it's basically like, add it if you think Rogues need a buff. I don't, and if I did, I don't think this would be the kind of buff it needs, but anyway, you are explicitly and repeatedly encouraged by the rules to only use it if you want to. Idk. I guess it's okay.
I don't agree. The alternative is to bonus action hide. While hidden they don't get attacked and they don't have to give up their movement for two turns.
Like so many mechanics, it's dependent on how your encounters are designed. If you don't specifically add reasons to keep a fight dynamic, you have encounters where the two sides walk up to each other and stand there attacking until one side wins. In that case, sure, a rogue can just post up in one spot and attack repeatedly. But if there are skirmishers that can get in the rogue's face or environmental hazards that keep you moving or traps or any number of things to incentivize movement, Steady Aim comes at a higher cost. Ideally you mix it up enough that sometimes it's useful and sometimes it's not.
As for the OP, in my games familiars that intervene in combat have a very high likelihood of dying. As does a rat running through a castle or a hawk standing lookout in a tree for hours. Familiars are intentionally fragile so that you can send a stiff breeze their way and take them out when you feel they're exceeding the utility of a 1st level ritual spell.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
I agree that dynamic fights makes the Steady Aim feature manageable. And it depends on the opponents. If they’re low intelligence beasts, they may not use tactics to challenge the rogue. But smarter enemies might. And I think it’s really up to the DM to balance out so that features like Steady Aim aren’t a rinse and repeat option. But also making combats so that players don’t get to use their features at all, isn’t optimal either. Kind of like clerics with destroy undead. Throw them a bone and let them destroy a few low CR undead once in awhile, even if they are well below the party’s level. Let them use their features not abuse them.
And as for the familiar comment, I don’t think most enemies would try to take out an owl familiar if it flies by once or twice, especially when the have bigger threats (the PC’s) to contend with. But after about three times it might become enough of an annoyance to try to take it out. Unless the party’s Barbarian is in their face trying to cut them in half, then the familiar would be fairly safe. I think it’s all situationally dependent on how long a familiar survives.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Steady aim is very OP, and my DM and many more wouldn't allow it. I did ask if I could use it when I heard about it, but it's just too powerful so I just use this method which is arguably more op, as you save the bonus action and can move away from enemies.
Hollow unbreakable arrows are the most OP common magic item, and my current method of coming up with insane combat shenanigans.
if you make a steel pipe with one end closed and a nozzle on the other, you can enlarge it, fill with any liquid, and then drop concentration, creating a high pressure squirt gun. (or a pipe bomb, depending if it holds)
Yea, I said "triple advantage" because you are rolling 3 dice, hence the "triple" idc, call it whatever you want. I just like that name for it.
Hollow unbreakable arrows are the most OP common magic item, and my current method of coming up with insane combat shenanigans.
if you make a steel pipe with one end closed and a nozzle on the other, you can enlarge it, fill with any liquid, and then drop concentration, creating a high pressure squirt gun. (or a pipe bomb, depending if it holds)
The familiar must be visible to provide a distraction. If it is invisible, the enemy creature will be unable to see it and cannot be distracted by it. If the creature does something that physically impacts the other creature, basic invisibility ends since that would be considered an attack.
The familiar can be attacked whether it is visible or invisible unless it has taken the Hide action. Taking the Help action ends its hidden status, whether it is visible or invisible.
Essentially the way for the DM to prevent this is to just kill the familiar off and it's done. It's very easy to kill familiars.
I've been distracted by things I can't see before. Haven't you? This is a house rule of yours, and I think a rather silly one.
Impacts, sure. A hammer impacts. Influences, though? Is a cat brushing against your leg an attack? Is a bird screeching near your head an attack? All we're looking for is a believable momentary distraction. It's not like it has to hurt.
Source? Or is this just based on your assertion that Help means Attack?
The Hide action (which is also a bonus action) makes it so attacks against you are with disadvantage, and you still have all your movement.
Steady aim allows enemies to see you and attack you at will, and to use it you give up your movement for two turns.
But my point was...with Elvin Accuracy you are rolling 3 dice and picking the highest. So there is such thing.
Actually in this case it is triple advantage (3 dice rolled hence the triple) because elven accuracy lets you roll another d20 if you have advantage, replacing the lower number, that means mechanically it is triple advantage
Hollow unbreakable arrows are the most OP common magic item, and my current method of coming up with insane combat shenanigans.
if you make a steel pipe with one end closed and a nozzle on the other, you can enlarge it, fill with any liquid, and then drop concentration, creating a high pressure squirt gun. (or a pipe bomb, depending if it holds)
This reminds me of the new Ranger changes. Doesn’t your flying beast option also get the flyby ability? They also get an ability to share buff spells with their companion animal. Potential for some decent buffs.
Steady Aim
3rd-level rogue feature
As a bonus action, you give yourself advantage on your next attack roll on the current turn. You can use this bonus action only if you haven’t moved during this turn, and after you use the bonus action, your speed is 0 until the end of the current turn.
It's just one turn of movement lost, not two. Making the rogue reposition to see a target periodically prevents this from being abused and can be accomplished by a number of methods. Proning a rogue could also work, or any other method of giving the rogue disadvantage.
Back on topic, many of the same tactics can be used to counter the familiar, though LoS methods are less effective when Cunning Action can be used to dash.
The introduction of Steady Aim is just the designers way of emphasizing that rogues are INTENDED to be able to use sneak attack on most if not all turns in order to keep their damage comparable to other martial classes. It is in no way overpowered. A rogue without sneak attack has one attack for typically d8+stat which is less than pretty much any other class. The restriction of not moving at all and requiring the use of the bonus action is a significant restriction for any rogue. They can't use cunning action or two weapon fighting. They can't retreat or otherwise maneuver - they either choose to stay in place and attack with advantage (possibly enabling sneak attack) or they can reposition.
To the OP, a familiar using the help action to assist a rogue is a very common strategy. It is not an exploit. The most common choice of familiar for this is the owl since it has the flyby feature that will not provoke opportunity attack while they fly adjacent to a target and take the help action.
Good ways for a rogue to obtain advantage on their attack are:
- bonus action hide behind appropriate cover and if successful then attack with advantage (this typically only works for ranged attacks)
- familiar help action
- steady aim
- spells like faerie fire - available by multiclassing
- darkness+devils sight with 3 levels of warlock multiclass - devils sight is also good for a rogue since it is one of the few ways to avoid disadvantage on perception checks in darkness (the other approach being the skulker feat)
However, I've found that if a character wants to regularly attack with advantage (possibly because they took the elven accuracy feat) then the character needs to be built with the ability to obtain advantage themselves - you usually can't rely on others.
Another way the familiar could help you get advantage is to use the flanking rules.
Hollow unbreakable arrows are the most OP common magic item, and my current method of coming up with insane combat shenanigans.
if you make a steel pipe with one end closed and a nozzle on the other, you can enlarge it, fill with any liquid, and then drop concentration, creating a high pressure squirt gun. (or a pipe bomb, depending if it holds)