I feel this is a weird mechanization of the idea. Theoretically would it work better if they gave them something like a Fly (Glide) speed? In that it's flight but they can't gain altitude?
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
I feel this is a weird mechanization of the idea. Theoretically would it work better if they gave them something like a Fly (Glide) speed? In that it's flight but they can't gain altitude?
Definitely, but they already screwed it up with the Simic Hybrid, and I guess they think they have to keep screwing it up because of precedent. They wouldn't even have to give it a tag like that. Base it on stuff like the Ring of Telekinesis that allows you to cast Telekinesis, but only on objects, or the Fathomless expanded spell list that gives you Summon Elemental, but only water elementals. You can fly, but you can't fly up.
I feel part of the problem is the movement multiplication, rather than simply be directional. If when you descend 1 foot you could glide 1 foot at no cost, then you couldn't abuse it by moving more distance than you jumped.
The problem with WotC's releases as of late is that they are listening to the majority of their feedback. And the majority of the people playing this game are players. Unfortunately, most players don't really care about balance in my experience (Just look at the roll for initiative subreddit, anything that denounces OP player mechanics is downvoted into oblivion).
This means all the broken shit they put out is getting praised, and anything that's not as good as the broken shit is getting reported as being not good enough. Just look at the reaction to the new feats that came out in UA, they aren't as strong as Fey/Shadow Touched (which are broken as hell and perma banned at my table), so players dont think they're worth taking.
Everything from Tasha's and onwards suffers from this issue. The power creep is getting way out of hand, cause the new content is being forced into relevance by outpacing the old content. To be fair, this has been happening since Xanathar's, but at least the options presented there made up for power imbalances between base classes somewhat.
I can tell you for certain that this means RAW Hadozee movement "30 feet" really means "150 feet" since the creature can High Jump 1 foot while standing still, scoot 5 feet while descending, and repeat 29 more times. That's without Dashing. And as you pointed out, with a high cliff to fall from, they can move 2500 feet in a single turn.
You can expect exactly 0 DMs to obey this RAW in practice - you can already see people in this very thread pretending the RAW doesn't say what it does, but in practice, every DM will either ban the race or house-rule its glide.
Care to explain why scatterbraind is wrong?
The words "at no movement cost to you" seems to directly state that the glide does not cost the Hadozee's movement.
If they intended that to specifically mean just the vertical descent and not the horizontal movement they could straight up say "The vertical portion of this glide does not cost you movement."
That's fair enough, although it kind of blows my mind they went out of their way to write that without considering the consequences.
At any rate, what I said before is how I'll be ruling them. I think it's reasonable and still makes them fun to play.
Review copies are out my guy.... im not mistranslating. I wish i was
Then this is the wrong forum for debating OP vs not OP, but I can tell you for certain that this means RAW Hadozee movement "30 feet" really means "150 feet" since the creature can High Jump 1 foot while standing still, scoot 5 feet while descending, and repeat 29 more times.
What people forget about RAW is that passages like rule zero and this are also RAW:
The rules don’t account for every possible situation that might arise during a typical D&D session.
Making 30 1-foot jumps on your turn falls under "completely stupid and ridiculous thing the rules didn't bother to address." The DM can (and should) just say no and that is also in accordance with RAW. Personally my group has had a long-standing rule that you can only jump once on your turn unless you Dash, which lets you jump once more.
I know I'm the outlier on this one, but I'm just going to restrict this to "once per turn" and maybe reduce the distance you can travel per feet you fall to be the same as the Simic Hybrid's Manta Glide (2 per foot you fall instead of 5). I've seen Manta Glide used in a campaign before, and it really didn't break anything, so long as you don't allow the players to spam it multiple times in a turn.
And in my campaigns, locations where there are 500 foot cliffs/ledges that the PCs could maximize the use of this feature is pretty uncommon. Which might be different in a Spelljammer campaign, but I really don't see this being a huge problem.
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Review copies are out my guy.... im not mistranslating. I wish i was
Then this is the wrong forum for debating OP vs not OP, but I can tell you for certain that this means RAW Hadozee movement "30 feet" really means "150 feet" since the creature can High Jump 1 foot while standing still, scoot 5 feet while descending, and repeat 29 more times.
What people forget about RAW is that passages like rule zero and this are also RAW:
The rules don’t account for every possible situation that might arise during a typical D&D session.
I don't think anyone here forgot that. Not anyone at all.
Making 30 1-foot jumps on your turn falls under "completely stupid and ridiculous thing the rules didn't bother to address." The DM can (and should) just say no and that is also in accordance with RAW. Personally my group has had a long-standing rule that you can only jump once on your turn unless you Dash, which lets you jump once more.
Thank you for helping to prove my original claim true.
Making 30 jumps is certainly silly. But, a single casting of Misty Step gets you 180 feet of movement, at the cost of a 2nd level spell slot and a bonus action. And you can still attack or cast a cantrip after the movement!
If you're willing to wait a bit, the 2nd level Levitate can get you 2,530 feet of movement in 25 rounds. Or even better, the 4th level Dimension Door can do the same thing in a single round. That's a half mile of movement, with no chance of error. Far superior to the 7th level spell Teleport.
I see Misty Step being the most used tool for this exploit. Easy to get, and super usable.
I'll agree that going the full 2,500 feet isn't something you'd do often. But certainly Misty Step for reaching an enemy more than 30 feet away but less than 180 is likely to happen often. Besides, a quick aerial scout of the quarter-mile around your position isn't useless, especially if someone can cast Invisibility.
You'd be able to zip through an entire dungeon in one turn, if you're lucky with the dungeon layout. Climb up a wall at the entrance, then drop and glide through the whole place and back again. You can use your object interaction to open one door, your feet-based bonus action for another, and your action can open a third, or if it's locked, cast Knock. If there's only two doors, you can even snatch a treasure chest and take it with you.
Also, you won't be touching the ground, so you can avoid triggering some amount of traps. If you encounter monsters, that's no problem, because they only get to start their turn after you're done with yours, and by that time you're back at the entrance. If you're really scared, you can use your action to Disengage, and only open two doors per trip, or one and grab a treasure chest.
(This ignores dungeon areas with different elevations. If you encounter a change in elevation, just turn back.)
But hey, maybe there aren't dungeons in Spelljammer. I mean, where would you put em? It's probably fine.
PC races with the innate ability to fly have been in 5E since virtually the beginning and somehow managed to not break it, I think one that's "falling, with style" isn't going to have as big an issue as some people are making it out to be.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
PC races with the innate ability to fly have been in 5E since virtually the beginning and somehow managed to not break it, I think one that's "falling, with style" isn't going to have as big an issue as some people are making it out to be.
I'd be curious to know what kind of games you've been playing if racial flight has never broken anything ever. I have both played with, and run for, an Aarakocra monk, and it is not a hell i would wish on my worst enemy.
PC races with the innate ability to fly have been in 5E since virtually the beginning and somehow managed to not break it, I think one that's "falling, with style" isn't going to have as big an issue as some people are making it out to be.
I'd be curious to know what kind of games you've been playing if racial flight has never broken anything ever. I have both played with, and run for, an Aarakocra monk, and it is not a hell i would wish on my worst enemy.
I've played with flying PCs and DMed for flying PCs multiple times. One of them was an Aarakocra Monk with the Mobile feat. It has literally never been a problem. We just use monsters with ranged attacks/spells and design encounters/dungeons/adventures around the abilities of the PCs.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
PC races with the innate ability to fly have been in 5E since virtually the beginning and somehow managed to not break it, I think one that's "falling, with style" isn't going to have as big an issue as some people are making it out to be.
I'd be curious to know what kind of games you've been playing if racial flight has never broken anything ever. I have both played with, and run for, an Aarakocra monk, and it is not a hell i would wish on my worst enemy.
I've played with flying PCs and DMed for flying PCs multiple times. One of them was an Aarakocra Monk with the Mobile feat. It has literally never been a problem. We just use monsters with ranged attacks/spells and design encounters/dungeons/adventures around the abilities of the PCs.
You can downplay it if you like. I have also played in games where flight speeds weren't a problem because players didn't abuse them and encounters were planned around them. However, this does not change the point that many people have experienced issues with them. Experience is subjective, and while I understand it's hard to see a problem you've never experienced, that doesn't mean they can't be a problem.
PC races with the innate ability to fly have been in 5E since virtually the beginning and somehow managed to not break it, I think one that's "falling, with style" isn't going to have as big an issue as some people are making it out to be.
I'd be curious to know what kind of games you've been playing if racial flight has never broken anything ever. I have both played with, and run for, an Aarakocra monk, and it is not a hell i would wish on my worst enemy.
I've played with flying PCs and DMed for flying PCs multiple times. One of them was an Aarakocra Monk with the Mobile feat. It has literally never been a problem. We just use monsters with ranged attacks/spells and design encounters/dungeons/adventures around the abilities of the PCs.
You can downplay it if you like. I have also played in games where flight speeds weren't a problem because players didn't abuse them and encounters were planned around them. However, this does not change the point that many people have experienced issues with them. Experience is subjective, and while I understand it's hard to see a problem you've never experienced, that doesn't mean they can't be a problem.
If I have literally never had it be a problem, then it clearly can be fixed very easily.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
You'd be able to zip through an entire dungeon in one turn, if you're lucky with the dungeon layout. Climb up a wall at the entrance, then drop and glide through the whole place and back again. You can use your object interaction to open one door, your feet-based bonus action for another, and your action can open a third, or if it's locked, cast Knock. If there's only two doors, you can even snatch a treasure chest and take it with you.
Also, you won't be touching the ground, so you can avoid triggering some amount of traps. If you encounter monsters, that's no problem, because they only get to start their turn after you're done with yours, and by that time you're back at the entrance. If you're really scared, you can use your action to Disengage, and only open two doors per trip, or one and grab a treasure chest.
(This ignores dungeon areas with different elevations. If you encounter a change in elevation, just turn back.)
But hey, maybe there aren't dungeons in Spelljammer. I mean, where would you put em? It's probably fine.
Those would be some really odd dungeons if they have had ceiling heights and doors tall enough that you could continue to glide through the whole thing and back again.
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I feel this is a weird mechanization of the idea. Theoretically would it work better if they gave them something like a Fly (Glide) speed? In that it's flight but they can't gain altitude?
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Definitely, but they already screwed it up with the Simic Hybrid, and I guess they think they have to keep screwing it up because of precedent. They wouldn't even have to give it a tag like that. Base it on stuff like the Ring of Telekinesis that allows you to cast Telekinesis, but only on objects, or the Fathomless expanded spell list that gives you Summon Elemental, but only water elementals. You can fly, but you can't fly up.
I feel part of the problem is the movement multiplication, rather than simply be directional. If when you descend 1 foot you could glide 1 foot at no cost, then you couldn't abuse it by moving more distance than you jumped.
The problem with WotC's releases as of late is that they are listening to the majority of their feedback. And the majority of the people playing this game are players. Unfortunately, most players don't really care about balance in my experience (Just look at the roll for initiative subreddit, anything that denounces OP player mechanics is downvoted into oblivion).
This means all the broken shit they put out is getting praised, and anything that's not as good as the broken shit is getting reported as being not good enough. Just look at the reaction to the new feats that came out in UA, they aren't as strong as Fey/Shadow Touched (which are broken as hell and perma banned at my table), so players dont think they're worth taking.
Everything from Tasha's and onwards suffers from this issue. The power creep is getting way out of hand, cause the new content is being forced into relevance by outpacing the old content. To be fair, this has been happening since Xanathar's, but at least the options presented there made up for power imbalances between base classes somewhat.
That's fair enough, although it kind of blows my mind they went out of their way to write that without considering the consequences.
At any rate, what I said before is how I'll be ruling them. I think it's reasonable and still makes them fun to play.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
What people forget about RAW is that passages like rule zero and this are also RAW:
Making 30 1-foot jumps on your turn falls under "completely stupid and ridiculous thing the rules didn't bother to address." The DM can (and should) just say no and that is also in accordance with RAW. Personally my group has had a long-standing rule that you can only jump once on your turn unless you Dash, which lets you jump once more.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
I know I'm the outlier on this one, but I'm just going to restrict this to "once per turn" and maybe reduce the distance you can travel per feet you fall to be the same as the Simic Hybrid's Manta Glide (2 per foot you fall instead of 5). I've seen Manta Glide used in a campaign before, and it really didn't break anything, so long as you don't allow the players to spam it multiple times in a turn.
And in my campaigns, locations where there are 500 foot cliffs/ledges that the PCs could maximize the use of this feature is pretty uncommon. Which might be different in a Spelljammer campaign, but I really don't see this being a huge problem.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Restricting it to once per turn and maybe only on distances great enough for falling damage to apply ought to be enough to keep it from being abused.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I don't think anyone here forgot that. Not anyone at all.
Thank you for helping to prove my original claim true.
Making 30 jumps is certainly silly. But, a single casting of Misty Step gets you 180 feet of movement, at the cost of a 2nd level spell slot and a bonus action. And you can still attack or cast a cantrip after the movement!
If you're willing to wait a bit, the 2nd level Levitate can get you 2,530 feet of movement in 25 rounds. Or even better, the 4th level Dimension Door can do the same thing in a single round. That's a half mile of movement, with no chance of error. Far superior to the 7th level spell Teleport.
I see Misty Step being the most used tool for this exploit. Easy to get, and super usable.
Great, now you're half a mile away from the party. No way that would ever end badly for you.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I'll agree that going the full 2,500 feet isn't something you'd do often. But certainly Misty Step for reaching an enemy more than 30 feet away but less than 180 is likely to happen often. Besides, a quick aerial scout of the quarter-mile around your position isn't useless, especially if someone can cast Invisibility.
You'd be able to zip through an entire dungeon in one turn, if you're lucky with the dungeon layout. Climb up a wall at the entrance, then drop and glide through the whole place and back again. You can use your object interaction to open one door, your feet-based bonus action for another, and your action can open a third, or if it's locked, cast Knock. If there's only two doors, you can even snatch a treasure chest and take it with you.
Also, you won't be touching the ground, so you can avoid triggering some amount of traps. If you encounter monsters, that's no problem, because they only get to start their turn after you're done with yours, and by that time you're back at the entrance. If you're really scared, you can use your action to Disengage, and only open two doors per trip, or one and grab a treasure chest.
(This ignores dungeon areas with different elevations. If you encounter a change in elevation, just turn back.)
But hey, maybe there aren't dungeons in Spelljammer. I mean, where would you put em? It's probably fine.
PC races with the innate ability to fly have been in 5E since virtually the beginning and somehow managed to not break it, I think one that's "falling, with style" isn't going to have as big an issue as some people are making it out to be.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I'd be curious to know what kind of games you've been playing if racial flight has never broken anything ever. I have both played with, and run for, an Aarakocra monk, and it is not a hell i would wish on my worst enemy.
I've played with flying PCs and DMed for flying PCs multiple times. One of them was an Aarakocra Monk with the Mobile feat. It has literally never been a problem. We just use monsters with ranged attacks/spells and design encounters/dungeons/adventures around the abilities of the PCs.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
You can downplay it if you like. I have also played in games where flight speeds weren't a problem because players didn't abuse them and encounters were planned around them. However, this does not change the point that many people have experienced issues with them. Experience is subjective, and while I understand it's hard to see a problem you've never experienced, that doesn't mean they can't be a problem.
If I have literally never had it be a problem, then it clearly can be fixed very easily.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
This is false, but Aristotle certainly agrees with your chain of reasoning.
Those would be some really odd dungeons if they have had ceiling heights and doors tall enough that you could continue to glide through the whole thing and back again.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master