Correction: the best party is made up of characters of any race/class you want as long as you have fun playing.
Go watch Liam's second one-shot on Critical Role where there was one sorcerer with 4 rogues. It was fantastic.
Synergy for gamplay is best achieved by the players and DM, not the character specs. If the character specs were that important you're missing the point of D&D.
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Ranger and Druid are pretty weak late game compared to the other classes. Moon Druids are INSANELY GOOD until around level 6, after that they start lacking power. Not entirely sure about Ranger, I've just heard and read articles about how it was weak so WoTC decided to give them a familiar which still isn't even that good....
Ranger and Druid are pretty weak late game compared to the other classes. Moon Druids are INSANELY GOOD until around level 6, after that they start lacking power.
I disagree with this fully. I had a moon druid that was an absolute killer in a party that has a Lore Mastery wizard as well as a Champion fighter, all level 11 or so. Especially when the moon druid got the elemental shapes. He was a monster. Especially since they keep their hp when they transform, it instantly gave him crazy attacks and 100+ temporary hit points.
Yep they're still good during the mid game, as they progress though they aren't getting as many cool "big" features that a lot of other classes get. Eventually by level 20 it's not as good as some of the others (keep in mind 5e is a VERY balanced edition so even though it may not be a noticeable difference there is still a slight difference).
I thought they kept their damage from previous forms?
Nope (you may be thinking of the Shapechange spell).
Each time you wildshape you acquire the full physical stats, including health, of the new form. When it reduces to 0 the wildshape ends and you go back to your normal form. You are then free to wildshape again into a new form - even if you choose the same form as before, it's starting fresh again, back to full health.
One way to defeat an Archdruid is cause enough damage to knock them out of their form then deal damage to their normal form and keep doing this until their normal form dies.
Of course, there are way to achieve this. Like stun-locking, and most forms have less physical stats for resistances so you can try spells that, instead of dealing damage, imprison them permanently. With careful planning and the right spells you can even achieve this at lower levels. Archdruids are the ultimate tanks - however, there are ways to defeat and even kill enemies that bypass "damage".
For example, even though druids can change form they are not actually classified as a "shapechanger". In other words you can Polymorph them. In a polymorphed form you cannot use class features which means they cannot wildshape out of it. So, you can just polymorph them into a small form then put them into a tiny box of highly durable, thick, metal. When the form ends they find out the hard way what happens then you suddenly grow into a 5-7 feet being while inside such a box of only inches in any dimension. The result is an implosive mess and one dead druid. Alternative, if finding such a box is too difficult or expensive, try the uncommon item Bag of Holding - change them into a small slow form like a turtle and shove them inside the bag. While they suffocate - they can wildshape, suffocate, and repeat but there is time between these and air is not restored on returning to original form, so eventually their original form will suffocate at some point. It's less effective and they can Plane Shift if they have it prepared which can let them escape. You can also use True Polymorph to permanently turn them into an object. Or Flesh to Stone to petrify them permanently and just smash the statue then dispel it - instant death without needing to apply damage.
Targeting their wisdom for polymorph may be a hassle as they have proficiency in wisdom saves. So target dexterity instead by using Disintegrate - even if they're in wildshape reducing to 0 hit points still turns the body, regardless of form, to dust and therefore death. This was clarified in Sage Advice.
Archdruid unlimited wildshape is powerful but not something you can't bypass even with lower level characters. It's not anywhere as overpowered as people think - just means you have to be a little bit more creative than "argh me go smash druid".
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Druids are broken at 20th level with unlimited wildshapes; that's (almost) unlimited HP for just a bonus action every round
Yes they are, especially for circle of the moon. I'll use the elemental example again. Level 20, as a bonus action, they can turn into an elemental and get 100+ temporary hit points, EACH TURN AS A BONUS ACTION. It seems like too much power as a druid to be honest.
I totally agree. However, if we're talking about what party is the strongest, it would generally want to include a fighter type, a healer, a sneak, and a mage. For instance, I'm DMing for a party of 5 characters and they consist of a barbarian, a cleric, a rogue, and a sorcerer. Again, this is just for strength of party, not enjoyment. But, all the players seem to really enjoy their characters, so that works too.
Currently playing in: Quest for the Shunned City, Coliseum of Conquest, DragonDenn's Dragonlords, Shipwrecked on Fugue, Tomb of Annihilation, Razor's Lost Mine of Phandelver, The Lost Kenku & One Grung Above
Currently DMing: Princes of the Apocalypse, Out of the Abyss, Coliseum of Conquest—The Arena (Sometimes)
If you think a certain party composition is breaking the game, the GM has not yet figured the proper counter-encounter. Simple as that. 5 Barbarians can work as well as 5 Mages. They will have to approach encounters in different way and both will need a little bit of accommodation on GM side to make encounters interesting and balanced and therefore enjoyable.
With reasonable GM who is there to guide the story, not to play against the party, the party composition is secondary. Simply having players that want to work together can break the game in itself.
I'm still on a party of circle of the moon druids lol I think a level 20 circle of the moon beats any other level 20 class in one on one combat and may be the only class that could do a survival-esque variant. Keep sending the level 20 characters until the level 20 circle of the moon druid is defeated! You might be in for a long night!
I'm still on a party of circle of the moon druids lol I think a level 20 circle of the moon beats any other level 20 class in one on one combat and may be the only class that could do a survival-esque variant. Keep sending the level 20 characters until the level 20 circle of the moon druid is defeated! You might be in for a long night!
Not that long if you have a Wizard with the right spells: Polymorph and Disintegrate
Polymorph
With the level 20 Wizard use this to turn the druid into a Frog or similar creature with abysmal hit points and dexterity. It's 4th level spell and you have 3 spell slots of 4th level and 5th level plus 2 slots of 6th level and 7th level and 1 of 8th level and 9th level. That's 12 spell slots but you will want to save 1 slot of 6th level or higher. So that's 11 attempts and it only needs to succeed once. Chances are it will. Your spell slots of 1st through 3rd level can be used for keeping yourself alive long enough. Totally possible as with Mage Armor, Shield, Mirror Image and Counterspell among others you can have really good defenses against Druids. Even their highest CR forms as Moon Druids are not super damage-dealing compared to Level 20 characters and the AC, defenses and other things you have even as a Wizard.
Druids, despite wildshape, are not classed as shapeshifters and do not have Counterspell so they have no defense from Polymorph by themselves except for Wisdom saves which will not be that effective against 11 attempts by a level 20 spellcaster. A polymorphed creature has all stats replaced which means no class features. Once polymorphed they cannot make new saves against it nor can they wild shape out of it.
Disintegrate
Cast disintegrate. Even with a successful save (which is extremely unlikely) the minimum it does is 23 force damage and when dropped to 0 hit points the body, regardless of the form becomes dust. No more wildshaping, no returning to normal form, just dust. It was confirmed in Sage Advice this works even against wildshape and does work against polymorph. So, the hp-saving feature of polymorphing and wildshaping is completely bypassed.
The most it would take is 12 rounds which, as 1-vs-1 is not going to be long.
With the right spells and options, when pitted against each other a Level 20 Wizard is technically better in combat than a Level 20 Moon Druid.
If you're a fighter type, yeah, 1-vs-1 you haven't the vaguest hope in hell. Against spellcasters, though, the infinite wildshaping is little more than a slight inconvenience that can be easily overcome.
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I'm still on a party of circle of the moon druids lol I think a level 20 circle of the moon beats any other level 20 class in one on one combat and may be the only class that could do a survival-esque variant. Keep sending the level 20 characters until the level 20 circle of the moon druid is defeated! You might be in for a long night!
Not that long if you have a Wizard with the right spells: Polymorph and Disintegrate
Polymorph
With the level 20 Wizard use this to turn the druid into a Frog or similar creature with abysmal hit points and dexterity. It's 4th level spell and you have 3 spell slots of 4th level and 5th level plus 2 slots of 6th level and 7th level and 1 of 8th level and 9th level. That's 12 spell slots but you will want to save 1 slot of 6th level or higher. So that's 11 attempts and it only needs to succeed once. Chances are it will. Your spell slots of 1st through 3rd level can be used for keeping yourself alive long enough. Totally possible as with Mage Armor, Shield, Mirror Image and Counterspell among others you can have really good defenses against Druids. Even their highest CR forms as Moon Druids are not super damage-dealing compared to Level 20 characters and the AC, defenses and other things you have even as a Wizard.
Druids, despite wildshape, are not classed as shapeshifters and do not have Counterspell so they have no defense from Polymorph by themselves except for Wisdom saves which will not be that effective against 11 attempts by a level 20 spellcaster. A polymorphed creature has all stats replaced which means no class features. Once polymorphed they cannot make new saves against it nor can they wild shape out of it.
Disintegrate
Cast disintegrate. Even with a successful save (which is extremely unlikely) the minimum it does is 23 force damage and when dropped to 0 hit points the body, regardless of the form becomes dust. No more wildshaping, no returning to normal form, just dust. It was confirmed in Sage Advice this works even against wildshape and does work against polymorph. So, the hp-saving feature of polymorphing and wildshaping is completely bypassed.
The most it would take is 12 rounds which, as 1-vs-1 is not going to be long.
With the right spells and options, when pitted against each other a Level 20 Wizard is technically better in combat than a Level 20 Moon Druid.
If you're a fighter type, yeah, 1-vs-1 you haven't the vaguest hope in hell. Against spellcasters, though, the infinite wildshaping is little more than a slight inconvenience that can be easily overcome.
This is actually a good point. Polymorph wouldn't do much against the druid, except when combo'd with Disintegrate. I would actually like to see some video of 1v1 level 20 classes in d&d to determine who beats what in an average scenario. Of course the choice of subclasses would add intense variables.
To be fair Polymorph + Disintegrate is a rather brutal combo that can work against most enemies you face.
I also agree that a video about different 1-vs-1 level 20 fights would be awesome. It might open people's eyes about misconceptions people have about classes and how effective they can be - spellcasters are more effective in combat than most realise.
I've been in 1-vs-1 fights in my games with spellcasters. My Sorcerer won a tournament amongst the players against a druid, mystic and fighter. In another game my wizard easily outmatched and killed a monk (again, player character) trying to kill him and walked away with most of his health and spells remaining.
People have a misconception that spellcasters, having no armour proficiency and low Hit Die, must suck in direct combat. They don't realise that for a few rounds - all you need in a 1-vs-1 - they can be awesome tanks and combatants.
While I am certainly a spellcaster fanboy, I do realise that better importance is how you play not what you play and there's of course the power of random dice rolling to consider. 5E does a great job balancing classes, and my post is more about people realising that and breaking the misconceptions rather than saying any one class is superior to another. Even my post about wizard vs moon druid is only for highlighting that wizards have an advantage against that unlimited wildshape. However, a moon druid can still rely on their other abilities to beat a wizard. The wizard is not superior to a druid, just saying unlimited wildshape is not that useful against wizard.
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To be fair Polymorph + Disintegrate is a rather brutal combo that can work against most enemies you face.
I also agree that a video about different 1-vs-1 level 20 fights would be awesome. It might open people's eyes about misconceptions people have about classes and how effective they can be - spellcasters are more effective in combat than most realise.
I've been in 1-vs-1 fights in my games with spellcasters. My Sorcerer won a tournament amongst the players against a druid, mystic and fighter. In another game my wizard easily outmatched and killed a monk (again, player character) trying to kill him and walked away with most of his health and spells remaining.
People have a misconception that spellcasters, having no armour proficiency and low Hit Die, must suck in direct combat. They don't realise that for a few rounds - all you need in a 1-vs-1 - they can be awesome tanks and combatants.
While I am certainly a spellcaster fanboy, I do realise that better importance is how you play not what you play and there's of course the power of random dice rolling to consider. 5E does a great job balancing classes, and my post is more about people realising that and breaking the misconceptions rather than saying any one class is superior to another. Even my post about wizard vs moon druid is only for highlighting that wizards have an advantage against that unlimited wildshape. However, a moon druid can still rely on their other abilities to beat a wizard. The wizard is not superior to a druid, just saying unlimited wildshape is not that useful against wizard.
...
I think way too much about this stuff.
I also did a tournament for my players, it ended up being a Lore bard vs champion fighter and an assassin rogue vs lore mastery wizard (all level 11). Limited use abilities, spell slots, and health carried over after the battle. The Wizard defeated the rogue easily and the fighter defeated the bard easily, and then the wizard demolished the fighter with a combination of Bigby's Hand and Animate Objects. The fighter was helpless lol
the best party would be one that has every party member elite at a certain thing. a AOE mob bulldozer, two single target heavy hitter range or melees, a strong healer and the party face with owning NPC spells. Here's a sample:
1. Aoe bulldozer- Potentially sorcerer with careful and empower metamagics or wizard ( fireball at at distance with hypnotic pattern when they get close) 2. Single target - most classes have some sort of build that can pull of numbers perhaps pally with smites or rogues abusing sneak attack 3. Healer - life cleric. 4. NPC abuser - bards are good but best in game is sorcerer built into subtle metamagic with spells focused on mind, pick up mass suggestion and cast it right in front of the king and full court to make them bow to your whim. How about casting suggestion on elite boss with heightened metamagic so they roll at disadvantage. .
The best party is made up of of a Bard, a Blood Hunter, a Warlock, a Ranger, and a Druid
Elliott Neve
Correction: the best party is made up of characters of any race/class you want as long as you have fun playing.
Go watch Liam's second one-shot on Critical Role where there was one sorcerer with 4 rogues. It was fantastic.
Synergy for gamplay is best achieved by the players and DM, not the character specs. If the character specs were that important you're missing the point of D&D.
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
Ranger and Druid are pretty weak late game compared to the other classes. Moon Druids are INSANELY GOOD until around level 6, after that they start lacking power. Not entirely sure about Ranger, I've just heard and read articles about how it was weak so WoTC decided to give them a familiar which still isn't even that good....
The best party is made up of friends that show up and have fun together.
Published Subclasses
Published Subclasses
Yep they're still good during the mid game, as they progress though they aren't getting as many cool "big" features that a lot of other classes get. Eventually by level 20 it's not as good as some of the others (keep in mind 5e is a VERY balanced edition so even though it may not be a noticeable difference there is still a slight difference).
Druids are broken at 20th level with unlimited wildshapes; that's (almost) unlimited HP for just a bonus action every round
I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
I thought they kept their damage from previous forms?
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Ah, my bad. I'll need to relook at some of the classes. Don't want to mess anything up in the future :/
Published Subclasses
I totally agree. However, if we're talking about what party is the strongest, it would generally want to include a fighter type, a healer, a sneak, and a mage. For instance, I'm DMing for a party of 5 characters and they consist of a barbarian, a cleric, a rogue, and a sorcerer. Again, this is just for strength of party, not enjoyment. But, all the players seem to really enjoy their characters, so that works too.
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Currently playing in: Quest for the Shunned City, Coliseum of Conquest, DragonDenn's Dragonlords, Shipwrecked on Fugue, Tomb of Annihilation, Razor's Lost Mine of Phandelver, The Lost Kenku & One Grung Above
Currently DMing: Princes of the Apocalypse, Out of the Abyss, Coliseum of Conquest—The Arena (Sometimes)
If you think a certain party composition is breaking the game, the GM has not yet figured the proper counter-encounter. Simple as that. 5 Barbarians can work as well as 5 Mages. They will have to approach encounters in different way and both will need a little bit of accommodation on GM side to make encounters interesting and balanced and therefore enjoyable.
With reasonable GM who is there to guide the story, not to play against the party, the party composition is secondary. Simply having players that want to work together can break the game in itself.
I'm still on a party of circle of the moon druids lol I think a level 20 circle of the moon beats any other level 20 class in one on one combat and may be the only class that could do a survival-esque variant. Keep sending the level 20 characters until the level 20 circle of the moon druid is defeated! You might be in for a long night!
Published Subclasses
Polymorph
With the level 20 Wizard use this to turn the druid into a Frog or similar creature with abysmal hit points and dexterity. It's 4th level spell and you have 3 spell slots of 4th level and 5th level plus 2 slots of 6th level and 7th level and 1 of 8th level and 9th level. That's 12 spell slots but you will want to save 1 slot of 6th level or higher. So that's 11 attempts and it only needs to succeed once. Chances are it will. Your spell slots of 1st through 3rd level can be used for keeping yourself alive long enough. Totally possible as with Mage Armor, Shield, Mirror Image and Counterspell among others you can have really good defenses against Druids. Even their highest CR forms as Moon Druids are not super damage-dealing compared to Level 20 characters and the AC, defenses and other things you have even as a Wizard.
Druids, despite wildshape, are not classed as shapeshifters and do not have Counterspell so they have no defense from Polymorph by themselves except for Wisdom saves which will not be that effective against 11 attempts by a level 20 spellcaster. A polymorphed creature has all stats replaced which means no class features. Once polymorphed they cannot make new saves against it nor can they wild shape out of it.
Disintegrate
Cast disintegrate. Even with a successful save (which is extremely unlikely) the minimum it does is 23 force damage and when dropped to 0 hit points the body, regardless of the form becomes dust. No more wildshaping, no returning to normal form, just dust. It was confirmed in Sage Advice this works even against wildshape and does work against polymorph. So, the hp-saving feature of polymorphing and wildshaping is completely bypassed.
The most it would take is 12 rounds which, as 1-vs-1 is not going to be long.
With the right spells and options, when pitted against each other a Level 20 Wizard is technically better in combat than a Level 20 Moon Druid.
If you're a fighter type, yeah, 1-vs-1 you haven't the vaguest hope in hell. Against spellcasters, though, the infinite wildshaping is little more than a slight inconvenience that can be easily overcome.
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
Published Subclasses
To be fair Polymorph + Disintegrate is a rather brutal combo that can work against most enemies you face.
I also agree that a video about different 1-vs-1 level 20 fights would be awesome. It might open people's eyes about misconceptions people have about classes and how effective they can be - spellcasters are more effective in combat than most realise.
I've been in 1-vs-1 fights in my games with spellcasters. My Sorcerer won a tournament amongst the players against a druid, mystic and fighter. In another game my wizard easily outmatched and killed a monk (again, player character) trying to kill him and walked away with most of his health and spells remaining.
People have a misconception that spellcasters, having no armour proficiency and low Hit Die, must suck in direct combat. They don't realise that for a few rounds - all you need in a 1-vs-1 - they can be awesome tanks and combatants.
While I am certainly a spellcaster fanboy, I do realise that better importance is how you play not what you play and there's of course the power of random dice rolling to consider. 5E does a great job balancing classes, and my post is more about people realising that and breaking the misconceptions rather than saying any one class is superior to another. Even my post about wizard vs moon druid is only for highlighting that wizards have an advantage against that unlimited wildshape. However, a moon druid can still rely on their other abilities to beat a wizard. The wizard is not superior to a druid, just saying unlimited wildshape is not that useful against wizard.
...
I think way too much about this stuff.
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
Published Subclasses
the best party would be one that has every party member elite at a certain thing. a AOE mob bulldozer, two single target heavy hitter range or melees, a strong healer and the party face with owning NPC spells. Here's a sample:
1. Aoe bulldozer- Potentially sorcerer with careful and empower metamagics or wizard ( fireball at at distance with hypnotic pattern when they get close)
2. Single target - most classes have some sort of build that can pull of numbers perhaps pally with smites or rogues abusing sneak attack
3. Healer - life cleric.
4. NPC abuser - bards are good but best in game is sorcerer built into subtle metamagic with spells focused on mind, pick up mass suggestion and cast it right in front of the king and full court to make them bow to your whim. How about casting suggestion on elite boss with heightened metamagic so they roll at disadvantage. .