I've always wanted to play a gish type thing. Curious what way you all have played them and how you enjoyed it. I've been really looking at a hexblade myself, but not for the character I wanna play next.
I haven't tried it yet, but it is on my TODO list. I wanna try half-orc sorc, with two hander, high str, low cha and green-flame/booming blade cantrips, using buffs (blur, mirror image, shield, false life...) and other non-DC/non-spell attack spells. RP-wise one of his parents would have been somehow connected to a dragon (and thus dragon sorc), the other parent would be orc. They were kicked out from the clan, because of mixing blood and he would be considered weakling due to his half-nature. He would try to show everyone that he is no weakling and burn/zap some foes in the process.
Edit: Another plan is Artificer battle smith, most likely with sword and shield and buffs from spells
I know most people don't think of them as a gish, and probably they're right, but I had a lot of fun with a tempest cleric. Full caster, heavy armor, marital weapons, subclass powers that are great in melee. Domain spells that pack a nice offensive punch, and you can throw around heals when the party needs it. As I progressed, I was more of a caster who wasn't afraid to be in melee than a true gish, but overall, it was a pretty fun character with a lot of tactical choices to make.
I played a Paladin from levels 3 to 20 iirc. Great class. You can cast spells and hit stuff really hard, so it's a gish. I won't be taking further questions. :P
I played a Paladin from levels 3 to 20 iirc. Great class. You can cast spells and hit stuff really hard, so it's a gish. I won't be taking further questions. :P
I feel like Paladins are always excluded from discussions about Gishes because.... actually, I'm not sure why. I think the term "Gish" is usually intended to describe using some combination of multiclassing or a specific subclass to combine spellcasting and martial prowess, and classes that just do that natively aren't as interesting to talk about, because that's just the class functioning as intended.
A gish is a character that combines magic and martial combat. The word originated with the Githyanki, they had a knight caste known for using a sword in one hand and slinging spells with the other. The community generalized the term.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
It's like a fish, except instead of gills they have a sword, and instead of fins they have magic. Also instead of living in the water, they live in the imaginations and rose-colored memories of D&D players.
I played a Paladin from levels 3 to 20 iirc. Great class. You can cast spells and hit stuff really hard, so it's a gish. I won't be taking further questions. :P
I feel like Paladins are always excluded from discussions about Gishes because.... actually, I'm not sure why. I think the term "Gish" is usually intended to describe using some combination of multiclassing or a specific subclass to combine spellcasting and martial prowess, and classes that just do that natively aren't as interesting to talk about, because that's just the class functioning as intended.
Paladins are frequently excluded from conversations about gishes because a gish is generally considered a mix of martial combat and arcane casting, not divine. That’s really the only distinction AFAIK.
I am currently playing a gish build that I'm having a lot of fun with. He's a Swords Bard 5/Swashbuckler Rogue 5/Hexblade 2: https://ddb.ac/characters/2725951/spSCBB
He uses Charisma for melee, spellcasting, and Initiative. He has proficiency with shields (a cloak wrapped around his off arm as a reskinned shield) and has the Shield spell with War Caster to be able to cast it while sword and boarding. He hits decently hard with Elven Accuracy + Steady Aim + Booming Blade + Sneak Attack. He's very mobile with Cunning Action and Fancy Footwork. And I deliberately capped him at 3rd level spells because I wanted a martial character with a little magic, rather than the other way around.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
I am currently playing a gish build that I'm having a lot of fun with. He's a Swords Bard 5/Swashbuckler Rogue 5/Hexblade 2: https://ddb.ac/characters/2725951/spSCBB
He uses Charisma for melee, spellcasting, and Initiative. He has proficiency with shields (a cloak wrapped around his off arm as a reskinned shield) and has the Shield spell with War Caster to be able to cast it while sword and boarding. He hits decently hard with Elven Accuracy + Steady Aim + Booming Blade + Sneak Attack. He's very mobile with Cunning Action and Fancy Footwork. And I deliberately capped him at 3rd level spells because I wanted a martial character with a little magic, rather than the other way around.
Really awesome, thank you for sharing. It seems like a fun example. Do you find yourself using athletics much?
Not as of yet, but if I need to I can grapple someone and drag them quickly using Cunning Action. I have in the past made good use of the tactic of throwing enemies off of high places, so if there's a drop nearby I can maneuver an enemy to it.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
They're super replayable and fun as there's so many options. Even outside of the "dedicated" Gish subclasses there's tons! There's bound to be at least a few builds which peak people's interests!
Additionally Gish characters are sort of like martials, but with actually tactical and complex gameplay with maybe battle master having some tactics too. So experienced players are more likely to want to pick up a Gish.
My experience so far is that it's best with most of the focus on the spell casting and not on the martial aspect. It's my favorite theme though, gish for life I think. I always end up gish'ing lol
Pros: Single Ability Score Dependent, Hexblade Curse is decent, access to Armor of Agathys - an amazing spell that scales really well. Scaling well is important because of how Warlock spell slots work.
Cons: Limited spell slots. Also, as your spell slots gain levels the Shield spell does not, and spamming Shield is hugely helpful to a Gish.
Battle Smith Artificer (best Gish in the game IMO):
Pros: Single Ability Score Dependent, Steel Defender is great, Infusions are great, access to Shield and other great spells.
Cons: It's hard to think of any. If you're comparing it to an Eldritch Knight (a full blown Fighter), it has less martial goodies.
Bladesinger Wizard:
Pros: You are a full Wizard, which means your spell casting is top notch. Access to the Shield spell.
Cons: Multiple Ability Score Dependent, a d6 Hit Die, and at mid-high level your God-like spell casting will overshadow your martial abilities. You're limited to leather armor, no shield, and your weapons are limited to one-handed. You get a nice AC boost that makes up for that, but only when you're using Bladesong (limited use).
Eldritch Knigh:
Pros: You are a full Fighter, which means your martial abilities are top notch. You have access to all weapons and armor in the game. d10 hit dice. At mid-high levels they pick up some cool abilities. Access to the Shield spell.
Cons: Multiple Ability Score Dependent, 1/3rd caster so their spell and spell slot progression is painfully slow. Spells are mostly limited to abjuration and invocation.
The issue with most "Gish" archetypes/characters is that most of the time you're either weaponing or magicking. There's almost nothing in R5e that allows you to weave spell and steel into a single harmonious action. The Blade cantrips work, but their strength is strictly limited. Traditional (R5e) gishes either rely solely on weapon attacks in combat whilst spamming Shield and holding up one concentration spell as the 'magic' portion of a gish, or they focus on blade cantrips and tend to underperform.
The Bladesinger wizard partially addresses this with its hyper-juiced Extra Attack that allows you to substitute a cantrip for any of the attacks in your Attack action, and both dingdong and ranger have bonus-action "imbue your weapon with magical force" spells that sorta hit the mark, but in the dingdong's case you're better off using the base Divine Smite class feature in almost all cases, and the ranger-exclusive Smite-like spells...generally stink.
I've played a Battlesmith at high levels, and in combat she's underwhelming. The Defender does not scale well at all outside Tier 1 and early Tier 2 play, and for the most part Star's time is better spent on utility and support spells than firing her weapons. I'm currently running a paladin (admittedly at lower levels) and while the class is perfectly serviceable, there's a sharp divide between 'Swinging sword' and 'Casting Spells'. I've previously tinkered with an Arcane Trickster using GFB as her primary strike and that felt the most "Gishy" to me - that character would dart in to deliver heavy blows with her enchanted blade and then evade, switching seamlessly between striking enemies and casting offensive/disruptive illusory spells as combat required. Definitely limited though, even if the Trickster benefits enormously from taking Fey-Touched (if they can) and learning Dissonant Whispers. Little is cooler than terrifying an enemy, dealing psychic damage and forcing it to flee from you and the barbarian both, and then still getting your sneak attack damage for the turn on the AoO you just provoked. Combine with war Caster at higher levels to be able to GFB/Booming Blade the critter as they flee and deal outstanding single-round damage.
I guess it depends on what you're comparing to, and I don't want to invalidate your experience. But from what I understand, the melee cantrips perform well in comparison to extra attack (2 attacks) with 1 hand weapons, and they always win (vs 1- or 2-h weapons) when the rider damage is triggered.
The only cases when this might not be true is when you can reliably get 2 hits using the power attack style feats (so full time advantage), or when you get more than one extra attack from fighter levels.
The issue with most "Gish" archetypes/characters is that most of the time you're either weaponing or magicking. There's almost nothing in R5e that allows you to weave spell and steel into a single harmonious action. The Blade cantrips work, but their strength is strictly limited. Traditional (R5e) gishes either rely solely on weapon attacks in combat whilst spamming Shield and holding up one concentration spell as the 'magic' portion of a gish, or they focus on blade cantrips and tend to underperform.
The Bladesinger wizard partially addresses this with its hyper-juiced Extra Attack that allows you to substitute a cantrip for any of the attacks in your Attack action, and both dingdong and ranger have bonus-action "imbue your weapon with magical force" spells that sorta hit the mark, but in the dingdong's case you're better off using the base Divine Smite class feature in almost all cases, and the ranger-exclusive Smite-like spells...generally stink.
I've played a Battlesmith at high levels, and in combat she's underwhelming. The Defender does not scale well at all outside Tier 1 and early Tier 2 play, and for the most part Star's time is better spent on utility and support spells than firing her weapons. I'm currently running a paladin (admittedly at lower levels) and while the class is perfectly serviceable, there's a sharp divide between 'Swinging sword' and 'Casting Spells'. I've previously tinkered with an Arcane Trickster using GFB as her primary strike and that felt the most "Gishy" to me - that character would dart in to deliver heavy blows with her enchanted blade and then evade, switching seamlessly between striking enemies and casting offensive/disruptive illusory spells as combat required. Definitely limited though, even if the Trickster benefits enormously from taking Fey-Touched (if they can) and learning Dissonant Whispers. Little is cooler than terrifying an enemy, dealing psychic damage and forcing it to flee from you and the barbarian both, and then still getting your sneak attack damage for the turn on the AoO you just provoked. Combine with war Caster at higher levels to be able to GFB/Booming Blade the critter as they flee and deal outstanding single-round damage.
The way I see it a well-built Gish will have something much better to do between leveled spells than a full caster. In this way you can save your spell slots for when they really matter. Also, having the Shield spell on an already armored character can take your defense to a whole 'nother level. I think Battle Smith is the best overall. The main problem I have with Gish is they depend on multiple ability scores, outside of Hexblade and Battle Smith. That's why I think Battle Smith is the best overall.
Here's a level 6 I built, straight point buy and no magic items beyond infusions.
It's a Shield and Spear build with Polearm Master. The Steel Defender will only take the Dodge action, to act as a damage sponge and hand out disadvantage. That frees up my bonus action attack. So it's 3 attacks per turn with a +1 Radian Weapon, and 18 Intelligence, 16 Constitution, Con Save proficiency so concentration saves are pretty good without needing a feat. Oh, and 21 AC thanks to infusions, 26 if he casts shield. Now imagine if you give him magic items what you can build.
That is SUPER tanky and very respectable damage without a spell ever having to be cast. As for the spells you do have, right off the bat you can cast Aid, which is an amazing spell. Run into a tough enemy wearing armor, and you got heat metal. An ally is caught in the jaws of a T-Rex, you got Vortex Warp. If you find 4 enemies clumped together you can cast Web. If you have 3+ high AC enemies together, cast Faery Fire. Etc.
Because you're just fine without your spells, you don't have to be impatient. Save them for the right moment.
Most full casters are bouncing between finding the right spell for the moment so they can feel useful, conserving spell slots, and using relatively weak cantrips as fillers.
I've always wanted to play a gish type thing. Curious what way you all have played them and how you enjoyed it. I've been really looking at a hexblade myself, but not for the character I wanna play next.
I haven't tried it yet, but it is on my TODO list. I wanna try half-orc sorc, with two hander, high str, low cha and green-flame/booming blade cantrips, using buffs (blur, mirror image, shield, false life...) and other non-DC/non-spell attack spells. RP-wise one of his parents would have been somehow connected to a dragon (and thus dragon sorc), the other parent would be orc. They were kicked out from the clan, because of mixing blood and he would be considered weakling due to his half-nature. He would try to show everyone that he is no weakling and burn/zap some foes in the process.
Edit: Another plan is Artificer battle smith, most likely with sword and shield and buffs from spells
I know most people don't think of them as a gish, and probably they're right, but I had a lot of fun with a tempest cleric. Full caster, heavy armor, marital weapons, subclass powers that are great in melee. Domain spells that pack a nice offensive punch, and you can throw around heals when the party needs it. As I progressed, I was more of a caster who wasn't afraid to be in melee than a true gish, but overall, it was a pretty fun character with a lot of tactical choices to make.
I played a Paladin from levels 3 to 20 iirc. Great class. You can cast spells and hit stuff really hard, so it's a gish. I won't be taking further questions. :P
I feel like Paladins are always excluded from discussions about Gishes because.... actually, I'm not sure why. I think the term "Gish" is usually intended to describe using some combination of multiclassing or a specific subclass to combine spellcasting and martial prowess, and classes that just do that natively aren't as interesting to talk about, because that's just the class functioning as intended.
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i gotta ask...what the hell is a gish???
A gish is a character that combines magic and martial combat. The word originated with the Githyanki, they had a knight caste known for using a sword in one hand and slinging spells with the other. The community generalized the term.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
It's like a fish, except instead of gills they have a sword, and instead of fins they have magic. Also instead of living in the water, they live in the imaginations and rose-colored memories of D&D players.
I don’t know where the term came from but I always think of them as Gith-ish.
Paladins are frequently excluded from conversations about gishes because a gish is generally considered a mix of martial combat and arcane casting, not divine. That’s really the only distinction AFAIK.
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I am currently playing a gish build that I'm having a lot of fun with. He's a Swords Bard 5/Swashbuckler Rogue 5/Hexblade 2: https://ddb.ac/characters/2725951/spSCBB
He uses Charisma for melee, spellcasting, and Initiative. He has proficiency with shields (a cloak wrapped around his off arm as a reskinned shield) and has the Shield spell with War Caster to be able to cast it while sword and boarding. He hits decently hard with Elven Accuracy + Steady Aim + Booming Blade + Sneak Attack. He's very mobile with Cunning Action and Fancy Footwork. And I deliberately capped him at 3rd level spells because I wanted a martial character with a little magic, rather than the other way around.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Not as of yet, but if I need to I can grapple someone and drag them quickly using Cunning Action. I have in the past made good use of the tactic of throwing enemies off of high places, so if there's a drop nearby I can maneuver an enemy to it.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
They're super replayable and fun as there's so many options. Even outside of the "dedicated" Gish subclasses there's tons!
There's bound to be at least a few builds which peak people's interests!
Additionally Gish characters are sort of like martials, but with actually tactical and complex gameplay with maybe battle master having some tactics too. So experienced players are more likely to want to pick up a Gish.
My experience so far is that it's best with most of the focus on the spell casting and not on the martial aspect. It's my favorite theme though, gish for life I think. I always end up gish'ing lol
Altrazin Aghanes - Wizard/Fighter
Varpulis Windhowl - Fighter
Skolson Demjon - Cleric/Fighter
Mechanically:
Hexblade:
Pros: Single Ability Score Dependent, Hexblade Curse is decent, access to Armor of Agathys - an amazing spell that scales really well. Scaling well is important because of how Warlock spell slots work.
Cons: Limited spell slots. Also, as your spell slots gain levels the Shield spell does not, and spamming Shield is hugely helpful to a Gish.
Battle Smith Artificer (best Gish in the game IMO):
Pros: Single Ability Score Dependent, Steel Defender is great, Infusions are great, access to Shield and other great spells.
Cons: It's hard to think of any. If you're comparing it to an Eldritch Knight (a full blown Fighter), it has less martial goodies.
Bladesinger Wizard:
Pros: You are a full Wizard, which means your spell casting is top notch. Access to the Shield spell.
Cons: Multiple Ability Score Dependent, a d6 Hit Die, and at mid-high level your God-like spell casting will overshadow your martial abilities. You're limited to leather armor, no shield, and your weapons are limited to one-handed. You get a nice AC boost that makes up for that, but only when you're using Bladesong (limited use).
Eldritch Knigh:
Pros: You are a full Fighter, which means your martial abilities are top notch. You have access to all weapons and armor in the game. d10 hit dice. At mid-high levels they pick up some cool abilities. Access to the Shield spell.
Cons: Multiple Ability Score Dependent, 1/3rd caster so their spell and spell slot progression is painfully slow. Spells are mostly limited to abjuration and invocation.
The issue with most "Gish" archetypes/characters is that most of the time you're either weaponing or magicking. There's almost nothing in R5e that allows you to weave spell and steel into a single harmonious action. The Blade cantrips work, but their strength is strictly limited. Traditional (R5e) gishes either rely solely on weapon attacks in combat whilst spamming Shield and holding up one concentration spell as the 'magic' portion of a gish, or they focus on blade cantrips and tend to underperform.
The Bladesinger wizard partially addresses this with its hyper-juiced Extra Attack that allows you to substitute a cantrip for any of the attacks in your Attack action, and both dingdong and ranger have bonus-action "imbue your weapon with magical force" spells that sorta hit the mark, but in the dingdong's case you're better off using the base Divine Smite class feature in almost all cases, and the ranger-exclusive Smite-like spells...generally stink.
I've played a Battlesmith at high levels, and in combat she's underwhelming. The Defender does not scale well at all outside Tier 1 and early Tier 2 play, and for the most part Star's time is better spent on utility and support spells than firing her weapons. I'm currently running a paladin (admittedly at lower levels) and while the class is perfectly serviceable, there's a sharp divide between 'Swinging sword' and 'Casting Spells'. I've previously tinkered with an Arcane Trickster using GFB as her primary strike and that felt the most "Gishy" to me - that character would dart in to deliver heavy blows with her enchanted blade and then evade, switching seamlessly between striking enemies and casting offensive/disruptive illusory spells as combat required. Definitely limited though, even if the Trickster benefits enormously from taking Fey-Touched (if they can) and learning Dissonant Whispers. Little is cooler than terrifying an enemy, dealing psychic damage and forcing it to flee from you and the barbarian both, and then still getting your sneak attack damage for the turn on the AoO you just provoked. Combine with war Caster at higher levels to be able to GFB/Booming Blade the critter as they flee and deal outstanding single-round damage.
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I guess it depends on what you're comparing to, and I don't want to invalidate your experience. But from what I understand, the melee cantrips perform well in comparison to extra attack (2 attacks) with 1 hand weapons, and they always win (vs 1- or 2-h weapons) when the rider damage is triggered.
The only cases when this might not be true is when you can reliably get 2 hits using the power attack style feats (so full time advantage), or when you get more than one extra attack from fighter levels.
The way I see it a well-built Gish will have something much better to do between leveled spells than a full caster. In this way you can save your spell slots for when they really matter. Also, having the Shield spell on an already armored character can take your defense to a whole 'nother level. I think Battle Smith is the best overall. The main problem I have with Gish is they depend on multiple ability scores, outside of Hexblade and Battle Smith. That's why I think Battle Smith is the best overall.
Here's a level 6 I built, straight point buy and no magic items beyond infusions.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/characters/81756389
It's a Shield and Spear build with Polearm Master. The Steel Defender will only take the Dodge action, to act as a damage sponge and hand out disadvantage. That frees up my bonus action attack. So it's 3 attacks per turn with a +1 Radian Weapon, and 18 Intelligence, 16 Constitution, Con Save proficiency so concentration saves are pretty good without needing a feat. Oh, and 21 AC thanks to infusions, 26 if he casts shield. Now imagine if you give him magic items what you can build.
That is SUPER tanky and very respectable damage without a spell ever having to be cast. As for the spells you do have, right off the bat you can cast Aid, which is an amazing spell. Run into a tough enemy wearing armor, and you got heat metal. An ally is caught in the jaws of a T-Rex, you got Vortex Warp. If you find 4 enemies clumped together you can cast Web. If you have 3+ high AC enemies together, cast Faery Fire. Etc.
Because you're just fine without your spells, you don't have to be impatient. Save them for the right moment.
Most full casters are bouncing between finding the right spell for the moment so they can feel useful, conserving spell slots, and using relatively weak cantrips as fillers.