As title says I do not like playing bard, but i kinda wanna try a hybrid semi-skill monkey, semi-combat ROGARD! I want to go Eloquence bard (probably not starting bard, probably starting Rogue). Rogue subclass probably Assassin or Swash. I don't really play bards and I haven't played a rogue archtype since 3.5 when all i did was play Spellthiefs and WIZARDS. Also, this isn't MEANT to be a optimal build (duh) more so using these 2 classes what have you found to be fun and what is an interesting build idiea. For stats do Standard or Point Buy or both, the game itself will probably have rolled stats, but can't confirm anything yet. Race wise Changeling or Dhampir - non-custom lineage, though there is merit for half-elf.
It sounds like you know the subclasses you want, the general level-up path, and the race. Are you looking for something like suggested Bard spells? Or are you looking for very specific build paths using the constraints of the few subclasses you mentioned?
If the latter, I'll say that my favorite skill monkey/support Rogue dip would be 3 levels for Mastermind and a 30ft bonus action Help. Though it sounds like you'll be primary Rogue, so that may not help. Are you definitely planning to be Eloquence + Assassin/Swashbuckler?
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I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
Eloquence Bard and Swashbuckler rogue seems to be a good fit from an RP perspective. Some ability (in the player) to improvise and free styke rhyme would be fabulous
What part of the Bard do you not like? Is it the singing and dancing bit? If it is, Spirit, Sword, Valor, and Whisper Bards seem the most UN-like Bards. Some won"t necessarily blend well with Rogue though as you"d be wasting some of the subclass features like martial weapons and medium armor.
In the end it is mostly how you play not what you play that makes the game fun.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
Yeah I get that, but what i don't like about the bard are as followed:
1. It's spell list is crap - theres a reason most people play LORE bard
2. "Support" roles in DND are almost always just bad - it's almost always better to attack or buff multiple teamates (bless). Even healing is sub-optimal - they need more to do better.
3. It's flavor is just ....wrong in dnd. It needs a more unique/tailored spell list that have to do with music and dancing - not just spells with verbal components.
4. It's subclasses genuinely are mostly bad mechanics wise. Swords Bard is okay only when multiclassed, but Tarot Bard just makes me sad - cool idea executed so badly. Valor and Swords bard should just be 1 subclass combined. Lore is fine, but is just so meh - just play a wizard that like instruments.
5. Available instruments - They have access to the Viol, but not the Violin or Piano or Organ? Like i understand not carrying a Piano or an Organ around with you but it would still be a cool idea to have access to or shit A VIOLIN - a Viol is ******* MASSIVE who the **** is carrying that with them in battle?
GRIPE OVER - but yeah this was mostly to see what people like Mairondil were building/have built. I presented my idea so people could be like "naw X assassin with X bard is boring or doesn't do it well try X rogue with X bard". Or "Hey Phantom rogue with tarot bard is super flavorful and interesting, but mechanics wise is kinda dull, but it's roleplay is super fun!" While i do talk about optimal combat - I'm mixing a bard with a rogue (and not going lore) so it's already super unoptimal. I'm mostly looking for constructive critism or to see what other people have done.
Yeah I get that, but what i don't like about the bard are as followed:
1. It's spell list is crap - theres a reason most people play LORE bard
2. "Support" roles in DND are almost always just bad - it's almost always better to attack or buff multiple teamates (bless). Even healing is sub-optimal - they need more to do better.
I think Spirit Bards are better casters than Lore Bards. They can change their flex choice every long rest where the Lore Bard has to level in order to switch. True, Lore gets two choices but the Spirit Bard gets an extra d6 to any damage or healing spell they cast.
If you choose a Smite or somesuch it could stack with Sneak Attack.
Even if you don;t go that way Bards still have things which make Rogue life easier - blindness, invisibility, hypnotic pattern, various illusion spells, various charm spells...
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
Yeah I get that, but what i don't like about the bard are as followed:
1. It's spell list is crap - theres a reason most people play LORE bard
The bard spell list is pretty versatile, especially with magical secrets. It's somewhat lacking in pure daamage spells but that's not the bard's cup of tea anyway.
2. "Support" roles in DND are almost always just bad - it's almost always better to attack or buff multiple teamates (bless). Even healing is sub-optimal - they need more to do better.
Healing word is one of the best healing spells there is. Not sure why you contradict yourself, buffing team mates IS part of being a support role.
3. It's flavor is just ....wrong in dnd. It needs a more unique/tailored spell list that have to do with music and dancing - not just spells with verbal components.
The flavour can be pretty much what the players wants it to be. That said, 5e bards have never been just about "music and dancing". The basic schtick is "magic through words". But if the stereotypical Scanlan-esque "annoying singer who f***s everything that moves"-bard is what you want to play, go for it. :)
4. It's subclasses genuinely are mostly bad mechanics wise. Swords Bard is okay only when multiclassed, but Tarot Bard just makes me sad - cool idea executed so badly. Valor and Swords bard should just be 1 subclass combined. Lore is fine, but is just so meh - just play a wizard that like instruments.
There's no such thing as a "Tarot bard". Lore bard is one of the strongest subclasses to one of the strongest classes in the game. It's by design a blank paper that the player will need to use their creativity to fill in. Swords and Valor serves to completely opposite purposes (Valor supports the team, Swords is a designed to work on their own).
5. Available instruments - They have access to the Viol, but not the Violin or Piano or Organ? Like i understand not carrying a Piano or an Organ around with you but it would still be a cool idea to have access to or shit A VIOLIN - a Viol is ****ing MASSIVE who the **** is carrying that with them in battle?
The list of instruments in the PHB is, quite obviously and just as with every other gear list, just a rudimentary selection. Not sure why you would want to shit a violin, though. That seems painful and you shold probably go see a cleric. ;)
GRIPE OVER - but yeah this was mostly to see what people like Mairondil were building/have built. I presented my idea so people could be like "naw X assassin with X bard is boring or doesn't do it well try X rogue with X bard". Or "Hey Phantom rogue with tarot bard is super flavorful and interesting, but mechanics wise is kinda dull, but it's roleplay is super fun!" While i do talk about optimal combat - I'm mixing a bard with a rogue (and not going lore) so it's already super unoptimal. I'm mostly looking for constructive critism or to see what other people have done.
Lol. Mixing bard with rogue is one of the most optimal things you can do.
The stereotype of a bard being about singing and dancing is bad for the game. My bard was a fire blade juggling acrobat. He didn't sing. He didn't dance. His goal was to gain favor with Rakdos and if a few guildless commoners in the front row didn't suffer injuries or worse for the entertainment of his demon lord, then that was a dull party. Just make sure you have the proper liability waivers signed to keep any Azorius Senate officials off your back.
I think bard is one of the most versatile classes there is, and with the right build, you could almost skip the rogue multiclass. Criminal/Spy background gives you proficiency with thieves tools. Even at lower levels, spells like Thunderwave, Dissonant Whispers and Heat Metal are pretty powerful and uplevel well. And yeah go College of Lore and get those extra magical secrets at level 6 and take whatever other spells you want - Eldritch Blast is on my short list. I love that you can play a bard pretty much however you want. Yes, mine is a singer/storyteller - and something of an insult comic - but yours can be whatever you want. My bard has been learning as many Thunder/Lightning spells as he can so he can introduce himself as a "Thunderbard".
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"...at worst if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat."
Available instruments - They have access to the Viol, but not the Violin or Piano or Organ? Like i understand not carrying a Piano or an Organ around with you but it would still be a cool idea to have access to or shit A VIOLIN - a Viol is ****ing MASSIVE who the **** is carrying that with them in battle?
If you want to have proficiency with violin, piano, organ, double bass, harpsicord, organ, etc. - talk to your DM - unless my bard wants to play in town, his instrument proficiency has never really come up. My bard has proficiency with Lute, Bagpipes and Panpipes - and in a battle you're not singing or playing an entire song to cast a spell - you've got 6 seconds. The way I see it, Bard spells are musical pieces or poetry or something along those lines. Learning a spell is a matter of practicing that until you can do it perfectly. After that, in normal spell casting, it's a matter of reciting the title of the piece, or a few iconic lyric - something that connects the bard to the spell. For example, to cast Thunderwave, my bard just has to chant the word "Thunder!" in the iconic cadence and tone from AC/DC's "Thunderstruck". The only other purpose of the instrument in a battle is to be a spellcasting focus. And I'm sure your character could carry a piano key or a violin string in lieu of the whole instrument - again, a connection to the instrument/musical piece that constitutes the spell.
Ok, yeah, I've probably given this more thought than I should have (or is healthy) but I've had a lot of free time his week...
"...at worst if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat."
L2-5: Eloquence Bard (Additional skill proficiency, and +2 more Expertise, + Jack of All Trades, and all Deception and Persuasion checks have a minimum result of 10 on the die, which with Expertise and a 16 in Charisma means the minimum result for either is 19 at L5.
L6+: Swashbuckler Rogue: Maximize that Sneak Attack and be able to use it all of the time due to the additional ways of accessing it.
My character is a Changeling, making great uses of that guaranteed good result on all Deception and Charisma checks. And being at least marginally good at everything makes the character much better at infiltration, matching the skills of whomever is being copied.
As title says I do not like playing bard, but i kinda wanna try a hybrid semi-skill monkey, semi-combat ROGARD! I want to go Eloquence bard (probably not starting bard, probably starting Rogue). Rogue subclass probably Assassin or Swash. I don't really play bards and I haven't played a rogue archtype since 3.5 when all i did was play Spellthiefs and WIZARDS. Also, this isn't MEANT to be a optimal build (duh) more so using these 2 classes what have you found to be fun and what is an interesting build idiea. For stats do Standard or Point Buy or both, the game itself will probably have rolled stats, but can't confirm anything yet. Race wise Changeling or Dhampir - non-custom lineage, though there is merit for half-elf.
It sounds like you know the subclasses you want, the general level-up path, and the race. Are you looking for something like suggested Bard spells? Or are you looking for very specific build paths using the constraints of the few subclasses you mentioned?
If the latter, I'll say that my favorite skill monkey/support Rogue dip would be 3 levels for Mastermind and a 30ft bonus action Help. Though it sounds like you'll be primary Rogue, so that may not help. Are you definitely planning to be Eloquence + Assassin/Swashbuckler?
I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
My favorite bard/rogue build was a College of Swords/Swashbuckler Tabaxi. Cult of Rakdos in a Ravnica setting was very fun.
How to: Replace DEX in AC | Jump & Suffocation stats | Spell & class effect buff system | Wild Shape effect system | Tool Proficiencies as Custom Skills | Spells at higher levels explained | Superior Fighting/Martial Adept Fix | Snippet Codes Explored - Subclasses | Snippet Math Theory | Homebrew Weapons Explained
My: FEATS | MAGIC ITEMS | MONSTERS | SUBCLASSES Artificer Specialist: Weaveblade
Dndbeyond images not loading WORKAROUND FIXED!!! (TY Jay_Lane for original instructions)
Eloquence Bard and Swashbuckler rogue seems to be a good fit from an RP perspective. Some ability (in the player) to improvise and free styke rhyme would be fabulous
What part of the Bard do you not like? Is it the singing and dancing bit?
If it is, Spirit, Sword, Valor, and Whisper Bards seem the most UN-like Bards. Some won"t necessarily blend well with Rogue though as you"d be wasting some of the subclass features like martial weapons and medium armor.
In the end it is mostly how you play not what you play that makes the game fun.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Yeah I get that, but what i don't like about the bard are as followed:
1. It's spell list is crap - theres a reason most people play LORE bard
2. "Support" roles in DND are almost always just bad - it's almost always better to attack or buff multiple teamates (bless). Even healing is sub-optimal - they need more to do better.
3. It's flavor is just ....wrong in dnd. It needs a more unique/tailored spell list that have to do with music and dancing - not just spells with verbal components.
4. It's subclasses genuinely are mostly bad mechanics wise. Swords Bard is okay only when multiclassed, but Tarot Bard just makes me sad - cool idea executed so badly. Valor and Swords bard should just be 1 subclass combined. Lore is fine, but is just so meh - just play a wizard that like instruments.
5. Available instruments - They have access to the Viol, but not the Violin or Piano or Organ? Like i understand not carrying a Piano or an Organ around with you but it would still be a cool idea to have access to or shit A VIOLIN - a Viol is ******* MASSIVE who the **** is carrying that with them in battle?
GRIPE OVER - but yeah this was mostly to see what people like Mairondil were building/have built. I presented my idea so people could be like "naw X assassin with X bard is boring or doesn't do it well try X rogue with X bard". Or "Hey Phantom rogue with tarot bard is super flavorful and interesting, but mechanics wise is kinda dull, but it's roleplay is super fun!" While i do talk about optimal combat - I'm mixing a bard with a rogue (and not going lore) so it's already super unoptimal. I'm mostly looking for constructive critism or to see what other people have done.
Here's his last character sheet. Level 16, Bard 10/Rogue 6. It's a loooong build, but gets something new and exciting at every level.
How to: Replace DEX in AC | Jump & Suffocation stats | Spell & class effect buff system | Wild Shape effect system | Tool Proficiencies as Custom Skills | Spells at higher levels explained | Superior Fighting/Martial Adept Fix | Snippet Codes Explored - Subclasses | Snippet Math Theory | Homebrew Weapons Explained
My: FEATS | MAGIC ITEMS | MONSTERS | SUBCLASSES Artificer Specialist: Weaveblade
Dndbeyond images not loading WORKAROUND FIXED!!! (TY Jay_Lane for original instructions)
I think Spirit Bards are better casters than Lore Bards. They can change their flex choice every long rest where the Lore Bard has to level in order to switch. True, Lore gets two choices but the Spirit Bard gets an extra d6 to any damage or healing spell they cast.
If you choose a Smite or somesuch it could stack with Sneak Attack.
Even if you don;t go that way Bards still have things which make Rogue life easier - blindness, invisibility, hypnotic pattern, various illusion spells, various charm spells...
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
have you considered Sword Bard/Hexblade, and just go all in on Charisma? also what's crap about the Bard spell list?
The bard spell list is pretty versatile, especially with magical secrets. It's somewhat lacking in pure daamage spells but that's not the bard's cup of tea anyway.
Healing word is one of the best healing spells there is. Not sure why you contradict yourself, buffing team mates IS part of being a support role.
The flavour can be pretty much what the players wants it to be. That said, 5e bards have never been just about "music and dancing". The basic schtick is "magic through words". But if the stereotypical Scanlan-esque "annoying singer who f***s everything that moves"-bard is what you want to play, go for it. :)
There's no such thing as a "Tarot bard". Lore bard is one of the strongest subclasses to one of the strongest classes in the game. It's by design a blank paper that the player will need to use their creativity to fill in. Swords and Valor serves to completely opposite purposes (Valor supports the team, Swords is a designed to work on their own).
The list of instruments in the PHB is, quite obviously and just as with every other gear list, just a rudimentary selection. Not sure why you would want to shit a violin, though. That seems painful and you shold probably go see a cleric. ;)
Lol. Mixing bard with rogue is one of the most optimal things you can do.
The stereotype of a bard being about singing and dancing is bad for the game. My bard was a fire blade juggling acrobat. He didn't sing. He didn't dance. His goal was to gain favor with Rakdos and if a few guildless commoners in the front row didn't suffer injuries or worse for the entertainment of his demon lord, then that was a dull party. Just make sure you have the proper liability waivers signed to keep any Azorius Senate officials off your back.
How to: Replace DEX in AC | Jump & Suffocation stats | Spell & class effect buff system | Wild Shape effect system | Tool Proficiencies as Custom Skills | Spells at higher levels explained | Superior Fighting/Martial Adept Fix | Snippet Codes Explored - Subclasses | Snippet Math Theory | Homebrew Weapons Explained
My: FEATS | MAGIC ITEMS | MONSTERS | SUBCLASSES Artificer Specialist: Weaveblade
Dndbeyond images not loading WORKAROUND FIXED!!! (TY Jay_Lane for original instructions)
I think bard is one of the most versatile classes there is, and with the right build, you could almost skip the rogue multiclass. Criminal/Spy background gives you proficiency with thieves tools. Even at lower levels, spells like Thunderwave, Dissonant Whispers and Heat Metal are pretty powerful and uplevel well. And yeah go College of Lore and get those extra magical secrets at level 6 and take whatever other spells you want - Eldritch Blast is on my short list. I love that you can play a bard pretty much however you want. Yes, mine is a singer/storyteller - and something of an insult comic - but yours can be whatever you want. My bard has been learning as many Thunder/Lightning spells as he can so he can introduce himself as a "Thunderbard".
"...at worst if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat."
"...at worst if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat."
This sounds like a character I've played.
L1: Rogue (4 skill proficiencies, & 2 Expertise)
L2-5: Eloquence Bard (Additional skill proficiency, and +2 more Expertise, + Jack of All Trades, and all Deception and Persuasion checks have a minimum result of 10 on the die, which with Expertise and a 16 in Charisma means the minimum result for either is 19 at L5.
L6+: Swashbuckler Rogue: Maximize that Sneak Attack and be able to use it all of the time due to the additional ways of accessing it.
My character is a Changeling, making great uses of that guaranteed good result on all Deception and Charisma checks. And being at least marginally good at everything makes the character much better at infiltration, matching the skills of whomever is being copied.
I like that build imam try it out mate, thanks